Interview with Ellen Rowe, Jazz Pianist

Photograph Courtesy of Wikipedia

Christina Law: CL

Ellen Rowe: ER

CL: How did you get introduced to jazz music?

ER: My parents were both musicians and we had a wide range of music around the house all the time and one of the types of music I got to hear in particular was jazz, big band music and pianists like Marian McPartland and Dave Brubeck, they were two of my parents’ favorites.

CL: You appeared on Marian McPartland’s show. Can you tell me about that experience?

ER: I did get the opportunity to go on her show. It was a thrill! She was one of the first jazz pianists I heard and I got to go on her show. I got to meet her and I actually know her pretty well. It was very exciting.

CL: Why did you choose to go into this profession, of being both a university professor and a musician?

ER: Well, both my parents were teachers. Almost all my brothers and sisters teach at some level, like private schools. I think teaching is genetically in me. I did a music education degree undergrad with the idea that I might be a high school band director, but as I got more interested in performing and composing professionally, I kind of realized that those two things don’t go very well together, trying to have a really active professional life and a high school job so I was exploring my professional opportunities when I got out of college and suddenly this part time job at the University of Connecticut, which is my home state, turned up in the jazz area. They were trying to start a jazz program. It seemed to be too good of an opportunity to pass up. To be able to teach at a college level and play piano seemed ideal from my standpoint.

CL: I understand that you are an excellent classical pianist as well. Do you prefer to play jazz to classical music? What sets jazz apart from other styles?

ER: My comfort area really is jazz. I played classically when I was younger because I had to play classically to get into the school of music. Of course, at that time they didn’t have a jazz major so I had to be a classical pianist. I love classical music. I’ve certainly heard as much, if not more, classical music growing up. I don’t feel that I have the level of training to be a solo classical artist. I certainly wouldn’t go out and do a recital with Chopin and Beethoven because I haven’t practiced that kind of music enough. I do love to do 20 th century music where I feel more comfortable and I’m sure that is because of my relationship to jazz. So when I do go out to perform classical, it’s usually things like rhapsody and blues, which is kind of a cross over piece from jazz and classical, or when I got very brave and performed a piano concerto, but that piece is phenomenally interesting and difficult. The rhythmic aspect of it, to me, is jazz-like and I just thought that I could bring something to that piece that maybe a classical player wouldn’t bring. That’s a long answer to a short question.

CL: What is the greatest satisfaction you get from performing music?

ER: The greatest joy for me is to be playing music with the members of my quartet and feeling like it’s a completely organic process, that all of us are operating in a state where we’re not consciously thinking about what we’re doing, but we’re all attuned to each other’s music or music making in such a way that we are subconsciously really locked and together. These amazing musical moments happen in that quartet because I think everybody has let go of any ego or interest in their own performance. Everybody’s goal is just the music and it’s an extraordinary experience when that happens and I feel like I’m playing something that I hear, but if you stop to analyze it, you hear that the drummer or the bass player did something to influence that, however, we’re all just playing off of each other in such a subtle and unconscious way that, to me, it is the embodiment of what music making is really about.

CL: So you get absorbed into the music?

ER: Yes, completely and utterly. You’re also having fun. One of my friends described it as the most serious fun you can have-that’s a great way to put it.

CL: Do you feel that jazz music continues to get enough listeners and recognition from the public?

ER: No, with about five exclamation marks to explain. Many people are afraid of jazz, just like they’re afraid of modern art or anything that they don’t completely understand. I think there’s a mentality in this country that if something is at all abstract or complex, it is a dismissed and therefore it can’t be enjoyed by the masses. Jazz musicians have a certain amount of responsibility in this because I think, for long periods of time many jazz artists have felt like they were misunderstood, but they haven’t taken the time to try to explain to people a bit about what they’re doing. I’m just thinking that if people can’t figure it out themselves, tell them. I think it’s just a matter of jazz musicians figuring out how to do some audience education, how to relate to the audience a little bit better. The idea of Miles Davis turning his back on the audience is all well good, but he’s Miles Davis. He could do that, he’s a great figure. The rest of us can’t do that, we can’t afford to treat the audience that way. What I’ve noticed in my experience is that even for audiences who know nothing about jazz, just a few sentences before a piece explaining a little bit about where it came from, what’s going to happen in it, some things to listen for perhaps, and suddenly the audience is loving it because they feel like you’ve tried to explain something to them and you want them to enjoy the music and understand it, so, at the same time, I resent the fact that jazz isn’t revered more in this country and appreciated for what it is, I do think that jazz musicians have a little bit to explain, to tell the people about it.

CL: I know that there are many female jazz singers, but there are very few female jazz musicians that actually play instruments. How do you feel about that?

ER: Yes, singers are probably the largest percentage of jazz musicians, followed by jazz pianists. There’s a lot of pianists and it’s an interesting subject. Why piano, why not any other instruments? There aren’t very many trombone players or saxophonists or brass. I think in the history of music, there weren’t many women up there to regard as mentors. I mean, there were many pianists, like Marian McPartland. As I was growing up, there was a woman named Joanne Bracken who was a more modern player. So the pianists and vocalists have had role models, other instruments really haven’t. When you think about it, in grade school when you’re getting the choice of playing an instrument, the girls characteristically are encouraged to play the flute or the violin or something they thought was more feminine, so that’s the beginning of the problem. Not a lot of young women are picking up trombones or trumpets, so they’re not available to play jazz. The other aspect is when you look at the psychology of improvising, it’s in jazz, the soloist usually stands up to do the solo and all the attention is on them and when you think about junior high, high school aged girls, I find that they are much less willing to stand up and be the center of attention, whereas the guys are all over it. It’s just like the question when you see the studies of girls in class. Girls don’t get called on or they don’t volunteer answers as much. I think it’s the same kind of thing going on. Therefore, improvising, you’ll see many young women in junior high, high school jazz bands playing a part in the band but not necessarily playing a solo. As they go on into college, soloing becomes an important part of being a jazz artist, so I think it’s societal and I also think that there’s things inherent in swinging hard. The element of swing, meaning that you’re interpreting eighth notes in what can be perceived as kind of an aggressive manner, instead of playing what you would in classical music (sings melodic tune), with an even division of the eighths. You’re having to inflect the notes with this (sing faster tune) which feels really awkward. It took me a little while when I was first directing a jazz band to feel comfortable singing what I just sang to a band of primarily young men. It didn’t really matter, but it was me having to convey that sense of swing feel because it didn’t really feel natural to me and I think that’s another thing that makes a lot of young women feel uncomfortable.

CL: Have you faced any challenges as a female in a male-dominated jazz field?

ER: Oh sure, less now than before. When I was going to school in the late seventies, I would go out, I was paying part of my school tuition by playing at weddings, bar mitzvahs, and I was playing in bands with all men in general, older men, not really my friends at school. I could tell the second I turned up on a job, if the guys didn’t know me, they were so depressed and angry that there was a young woman on the job because yeah, women can’t play jazz. I always had to prove myself, all throughout college. Even beyond college, I was conducting a cabaret show and I would show up and conduct these bands of generally elderly musicians and I was going to be in front of them conducting and they could not believe that they were going to have to listen to a woman because they had never done so before. Every single time I went out I had to prove that I was good at what I did and always at the end of the show or at the end of the run, they would come up and say good show grudgingly. There was a lot of that and there were older male directors, jazz players, I think treated me as a “girl” instead of a fellow musician, so that was upsetting too. It’s much better today than it used to be.

CL: Do you feel that women should take stronger roles in jazz music?

ER: You know, it’s funny, maybe ten years ago I would’ve said yes emphatically. I’m starting to think that if they’re absolutely sure that it’s something that they love and they want to do, they should not be in a position where they’re held back by society or anything else. Part of me thinks we shouldn’t necessarily be insisting that more women get involved if they don’t want to. It’s just like anything else. I think that music benefits from having diversity in gender, race, opinions, and attitudes about the music, so I think it’s always going to be a good thing for the music if there’s more diversity, but I’m not going to be willing to go out there and talk to women I know into playing jazz. It’s got to speak to them.

CL: What do you feel is the ideal role of a woman in modern society?

ER: Wow, I haven’t really thought that through. Just as men have perspectives on life, so do women and it’s important that both perspectives are equally valued and especially in music or any type of thing that requires community, which is pretty much everything in the world, there has to be a sharing of these perspectives and values. In any instance where that’s not the case, whether it’s weighing to the woman or the man, I think there’s a terrible inequity there. I guess I’m thinking that an ideal society is where women have every single opportunity that a man would have to be in any type of job or any type of situation that she wants and men have to realize that her perspective is only going to lead to growth in whatever way you want to interpret that.

CL: What challenges do women in today’s society face in comparison to men?

ER: I think that women are still feeling constrained by concern for their appearance more so than men. I think we’re worried about being taken seriously. I think there’s a problem with women who are more aggressive or forceful being signified as the “B”-word. I think that’s very unfortunate, I don’t understand why a man is allowed to have a free reign of anger and not women. That’s something that’s got to change, so there are definitely issues that we have to confront.

CL: What are some of the goals women wish to achieve?

ER: There are some basic things in the workplace, equal pay for jobs, equal support for advancement in positions, whatever position a woman happens to be in, they talk about a glass ceiling all the time, corporations and universities. There aren’t very many women as full professors at universities. I think those issues need to be looked at more closely to figure out why that is. I think the big change will be when more women become involved in government and politics. It’s probably one of the primary goals to look at those people to help fashion our rules and create societal standards for us. That’s probably the top thing, to get a woman president, a woman vice president, have some positions of power in politics and government and of course, in other countries, just to get the women to vote, to get the ability to have the control over their own lives. I’m speaking only in the United States right now; I’m not thinking globally which I should be.

CL: Do you believe that women continue to live in a subordinate status to men in society?

ER: I most certainly see instances of it. I’ve never seen a man discriminated against. That’s probably not true, I’m sure that it has happened before. I don’t think that there’s any kind of response that a beautiful or handsome looking man is the male equivalent of a bimbo, whereas frequently when a woman is very beautiful or a model, they think that she’s not smart. I think it’s just a lot of stigmas like that that still exist.

CL: Do you believe that music has a purpose to convey a message?

ER: I think music has the ability to foster emotions in people that they might not regularly feel through verbal communication or reading print. I think it’s capable of eliciting great joy and anger, for that matter, which is not such a bad thing, which many people think it is. Music when performed with a group of people is one of the biggest community builders I can think of, so I think it’s got a great role in community. I certainly think it’s a great tool for students who are trying to express themselves. I know students who express themselves through music can say things that I never hear them say verbally.

CL: Have you ever used music to express a certain message?

ER: Sure, I’ve got some pieces that are for the environment, which was called “Living, Lost.” I usually give a little spiel about endangered species before I play it. It could be dangerous to say this piece is about endangered species and everyone sitting there is thinking that they need to [help] woodpeckers or something like that. It’s something that I feel very strongly about and I know that that is emotional impetus for the piece and I like to let people know what was in my mind when I was writing that piece. One of my brothers passed away and I just finished a piece that I think has something to do with that, so I definitely do write pieces that are coming from a subconscious feeling about something. If it gives me a chance to talk about a pet cause then I often will talk about it and explain that the piece was written for that reason.

CL: What other causes do you advocate?

ER: Oh definitely environmental causes. I am an animal rights person. I’m not putting down labs, although I wish I could. I’m an anti-discrimination person, Habitat for Humanity, basically animal rights and the environment are my two basic causes.

CL: Do you believe that music can be used as an instrument for social change?

ER: I do. If you look at one of the experiences I had as kind of a microcosm. I was at a month long jazz workshop from people all over the world and they had the good sense to start the week off with dance, drumming, and singing, which meant that all of us who had arrived with our instruments and with our level of ability on our instruments, and our knowledge. We were all kind of nervously shuffling around in the group because we wanted to position ourselves in the group and get to know who were the best players. It’s a real competitive thing and they wouldn’t let us do that. They started the first week by doing nothing that involved our instruments. We had to just learn new rhythms, play them on drums that we’ve never played before, dance together as a group which really makes people feel vulnerable and then sing, so we were all in this community act, making ourselves extremely vulnerable because many of us felt uncoordinated, many people thought they couldn’t sing, but what it did was it fostered such an incredible sense of community that at the end of that week we were all very close nit, we were good friends, the whole competitive thing had vanished and we were able to then spend the rest of the weeks making music together without that. I haven’t quite figured out the implications of that on a larger picture, but I knew that it was an extremely healing process and it’s really great for community building.

CL: What are your thoughts on contemporary female musicians, like Ani DiFranco, Alanis Morissette, and Madonna? Do you think it is necessary for female artists to objectify their bodies to gain attention for their music?

ER: I’m not crazy about it because I think it takes away from their other talents. They should be able to sell themselves solely on the virtue of music making and the opposite of that is really unfortunate, which is to say that a woman without those “gifts” would not get that kind of attention who might be a brilliant musician. I would love to see that not be the way we think about our entertainers and our musicians, so no, I’m not a fan about it. Of course, look at all the young girls who are trying to dress like Britney Spears. I feel like an old fuddy-duddy saying that, but I just feel like that is not the kind of self-respect I would like to see young women having. Instead of being proud of their knowledge, their athletic ability, or their musical ability, they’re just looking like a pop star, showing their skin at age twelve or whatever.

CL: We had a very long discussion about that today in class.

ER: Interesting, how did the guys feel about that?

CL: We were all bashing Britney, even the guys.

ER: That’s reassuring that I’m not the only Britney basher.

CL: Do you ever feel that the general public may not welcome feminist music because it is so radically different from the norm?

ER: Sure, I think there’s a number of people out there who still feel threatened by strong women, I mean, look at the reaction to Hillary Clinton. Had she been a man, I think her health program would have been taken a lot more seriously. It’s very depressing, but I try not to think about it too much. I think there are often times when a woman asserts herself. It doesn’t just make men uncomfortable; it makes some women uncomfortable by that too. Even if they don’t like to think this way, they are perhaps more comfortable in a subservient role. They fear women either expressing anger or some kind of violent emotion, I think it makes them very uncomfortable. I think most women have problems with anger, I know I do, it’s a difficult thing. I think some feminist music really alienates both men and women which is really too bad.

CL: Do you think it is right for musicians to combine music and politics to influence public opinion?

ER: I think everyone is free to express themselves. I think a musician runs a risk, well it’s not really a risk. I don’t really like to use that word, but a musician that espouses a certain political stance is, of course, at risk of alienating a certain portion of his or her audience. If they’re willing to take that risk, why not use that as an opportunity. If they’ve worked hard to get to a spot to put on a concert and get an audience to come, if you’re not worried about antagonizing people then I think you should go ahead and say what you have to say.

CL: Do you have any role models that have inspired you to persevere despite hardships?

ER: Absolutely, my role models are evolving. Are you thinking specifically feminine role models?

CL: I’m thinking about a wide range of musical influences.

ER: Obviously, the jazz women pianists who come before me, which are some of the people I mentioned before, are encouraging to me, but I also consider myself an athlete so people like Martina Navratilova, other women, and right now my greatest role model is Lance Armstrong, [because of] his journey back from cancer, and his level of athleticism. So I guess I’ve got political heroes as well. There’s this former governor of Connecticut named Ella Grasso, and the people who were blazing new frontiers when I was growing up politically and athletically]. I also have a great admiration for mountain climbers, the Dalai Lama is also a role model.

CL: So, do you participate in any of these activities that your heroes take part in?

ER: Absolutely, I actually managed to climb Mt. McKinley last summer as part of a team. Then I got to climb Mt. Rainier, that was one of my first big mountains and I’m just heading out to the Cascades next week to do another Rainier attempt and then I run. That’s actually my chief hobby. I’ve run a couple marathons. I’ve run the Boston marathon. I spend as much time outdoors as I can.

CL: What is your personal goal, both in music and in life?

ER: Musically, I think my goal right now is to be able to travel the world with my quartet, play my music with a particular group of people and to bring that music to other people because I think it’s very sincere and I’d like to use that as a vehicle both to help teach people about jazz and encourage young people to play and I would like to be able to use it for chasms. I’m trying to get down to South America to climb Mt. AguaAgua in what would be their summer, winter for us. I’m hoping I can play some benefit concerts in the Santiago area just to raise money for the environmental causes down there or children’s AIDS or something like that. So I guess my goal would be to get enough of a platform so that I could use the quartet so I could raise money to advocate the cause that I believe in. Personal goals- certainly learning to be a better teacher, having a better influence on my students, learn more myself.

CL: How do you define success?

ER: I would say by being able to…that’s interesting because it’s not about material things, but at the same time I’m thinking about how material things influence how I’m feeling about success. I have to think about this for a minute…Well, personally success, at a very small level, for me is being able to play with musicians that I really love and respect and to be able to do that professionally is the most exceptional thing I could do. But success also means to be able to live comfortable without having to suffer from wondering where the next meal is going to come from, obviously, having a nice roof over my head, not even a nice roof, just a comfortable roof over my head. Success is that I’ve got all four legs and can run-that’s incredible, that’s luck, not success. I think just to be able to live the kind of life I want to live musically and personally without having to endure terrible hardships. It’s an incredible combination of fortune and luck, good fortune and good luck. That to me is success, I guess, being able to feed my cats.

CL: Do you think feminism crosses racial and cultural borders or does it apply specifically to certain groups?

ER: Well, I mean, it’s hard not to look at the world at large and see the major developments that are happening in Iraq, Iran and places that have traditionally just been male dominated cultures and not see feminism crossing all kinds of cultural boundaries. I think the idea of feminism seems to spread more slowly in Africa. I think what you find in countries with cultures where women have access to education that increases feminism. Typically cultures where women are not being able to be educated, [the women] see no other option than to fulfill the roles that have been espoused for them, so I think it is crossing cultural boundaries, racial boundaries, religious boundaries, but mostly through education.

CL: Do you ever feel that, because you are a woman, you have less legitimacy and credibility with male dominated audiences?

ER: Sure, that’s a great question. I don’t think it’s so much because I’m a woman, though it used to be that. What I think I use to deal with a lot, and still do a little bit is more that roots of jazz are basically in African-American communities and obviously greatly influenced by forms that came from western Europe, it’s a melding of those two things, but for a large number of jazz musicians, especially older ones, the element of swing, blues and swing, are considered essential to the music and those two elements are the ones that middle class white girls raised in a congregational church, that’s not in my background. Those aren’t things that I grew up with and so I think I question my legitimacy more in terms of trying to play music that is outside of my cultural upbringing. As I grew older and listened to different types of jazz, I realized that the important thing is that I express myself honestly and that does involve my love of that kind of music. It’s not going to represent a knowledge of that music that is sort of culturally imprinted from an early age because that’s just not the way I was brought up, so I have to learn to become comfortable with music, expressing the range of experiences I’ve had personally, which includes listening to swing music and to not feel subconscious about it and that’s the hard part. That’s probably one of the hardest parts for a woman jazz musician.

CL: Have you performed to different audiences? How has the response differed by the various groups within the audience, particularly between males and females?

ER: Yeah, it’s interesting. When I was in college, my teacher, my mentor there, would describe my playing as feminine and lyrical.

CL: Were you playing your own pieces or things that were already established?

ER: They were things that were already established. When I was in [inaudible], the irony was, [inaudible] is one of my musical heroes and if you didn’t know it was a guy, people might think it was a woman playing the piano, but I don’t know too many people referring to his music as feminine, so hence the dilemma. A woman might not have responded that way, she might not have said “feminine”, she might have said “lyrical” instead. There were some jazz musicians who thought that I didn’t swing hard enough and I’ve never heard that from a woman jazz musician before. I’ve worked on my playing and I haven’t heard that in a long time so I’m not too concerned about that part because I’ve gotten more comfortable with physically expressing myself so that’s changed. I guess that’s not a very complete answer to the question, but I’m trying to think if I actually noticed differences in response in the audience.

CL: I think it would probably be difficult because when you’re playing, you get absorbed in your own music and it’s difficult to keep an eye on the audience.

ER: Right.

CL: Do you ever find yourself catering to a specific audience?

ER: Yeah, I do. I’ve taken part in what’s been called a “Blues and Boogie” piano bash that happens in Ann Arbor every year and I really was kind of concerned about going on stage. I was the invited guest who would play one song as a surprise guest. I remember stressing before I went out to play because I knew that if I went out to play in a feminine and lyrical style that was not what this audience comes to this event for so I actually practiced some boogie woogie which I don’t normally play and I tried it out and they liked it so I definitely was catering, but in this case I didn’t think of it as selling out because it was in a style that I didn’t know too much about and it was really important for me to start learning about it, so I used that as an excuse. I definitely thought about the events that I’m playing for. Partly, I think it’s out of consideration for the audience, if I’m playing at a nursing home, I’m not going to play my most modern stuff. It’s there for a different purpose, but yeah, the answer is definitely yes.

CL: So do you think it’s important to explore all types of styles in music?

ER: I think it’s important because world music is just that. Jazz is influenced right now by so many different styles of music and there’s no way you could possibly master, I don’t know anyone who’s an amazing virtuosi pianist, a jazz pianist and knows a ton about Indian music and knows the whole history of Japanese gamelan. It would be impossible to do that, but I do think you need to be aware of what’s going on, be open to realizing that it’s all out there and a lot of it is coming together to create a series of acclamations. They need to at least have an appreciation and awareness, I think.

CL: What inspires you to compose music?

ER: The chance to try to transfer an emotional thought into music, that’s the part that fascinates me. The feelings I have about certain things can translate themselves to certain sounds on the piano or words and try to take that feeling, accord into an organized piece of music that makes sense, to me is a real fascinating challenge. The joy of hearing it performed by players that I feel really close to is terrific. It’s kind of indescribable. One of my first cats passed away when I was 24 and I wrote a piece about that because, I mean, it helps you get it out. It also helps you figure out about how you’re feeling about a certain event when you do that.

CL: When you feel increasingly passionate for a cause or an activity outdoors, does that inspire you to compose music?

ER: Absolutely, I mean, running and mountain climbing end up being kind of meditative practices where you’re getting incredible focus and that transfers into music making. Trying to get to that place in music making is that analogy. I frequently get my musical inspirations when I’m outside and the strength and confidence I get from activities like mountain climbing and running definitely transfers into the way I carry myself on stage, the way I play the piano, so everything ties together.

CL: As a professor, what lesson do you like to emphasize on your students?

ER: I think the biggest values I’d like to have my students develop are honesty in that they try to really honestly assess where they are, what their weaknesses are, what their strengths are, how they want to move forward from there. I really want to encourage them to think. It sounds pretty basic and obvious, but I think there’s a tendency in academic settings to just try to pass information for students to absorb and reproduce and I don’t think that’s a great way to develop growth. The joy for me is to see somebody synthesize something that I give them in a different classroom. I don’t want to tell them specifically what to practice. I want to help them learn what to practice so that when they’re practicing, they know to ask themselves the right questions, so they know how to dissect what they’re doing. It’s about learning about yourself. I like for students to realize that a quotation by Rocha may have incredible meaning for them in their musical lives, so things cross over, one discipline to the next. There’s a lot of relevance between genres of music, between areas of study. I encourage them to be inquisitive, to learn the process of asking questions so that they can go out and not need a teacher in essence.

CL: Do you see any shifts in views with each new generation of students at the university?

ER: What I’m worried about now is standardized testing. It’s creating generations of students who are trying to only learn specific information so that they can do well on a test. For example, my sister is a creative learning teacher and she fortunately teaches at a private school so she doesn’t have to deal with standardized tests, but she has many colleagues who do work in public schools and the whole idea to help students become creative is gone. You can’t teach creative writing anymore. It’s terrible from an artistic standpoint; it’s just the death of learning. What I’m really scared of is that future generations of students are going to come through and have music and art pulled out of their curriculum completely and become automatons who can reproduce certain mathematical things, but they’re not going to think creatively or care for the arts. At that point, our society is devastated.

For more information on the interview visit the Living Music site