(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[White]PB[Black]DT[2007-09-02]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Sanrensei Opening

September 2ndyithril [1d\]: sorry
yithril [1d\]: didnt realize
blairz74 [3k\]: yithril
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: is ok
HonFu [4k\]: why is it in this room?
blairz74 [3k\]: you doing this every sunday right?
yithril [1d\]: yeah
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: bc jon gives weekly lectures here
blairz74 [3k\]: ok
yithril [1d\]: we've had 3 sto far
blairz74 [3k\]: i giving you ownership over room for this k
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: they are normally really helpful :)
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: ok good idea blaire
yithril [1d\]: how to use the microphone?
Persona2 [13k?\]: Lol
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: I dunno I still haven't figured that out
HonFu [4k\]: oh ... is it with mic today?
Shana [2k\]: plug it in and talk?
reggel [7k\]: plug it in and go to ur setting and look for it and stuff and....ask a smart person i dont know
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: i couldn't figure it out so I don't know
Unplugged [-\]: you can't use the micro if you don't have a teaching account
Shana [2k\]: aww that sux
yithril [1d\]: oh
yithril [1d\]: that sux
yithril [1d\]: oh well
reggel [7k\]: u can make a teaching acount O.o?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: how do you make a teaching account?
Unplugged [-\]: you can ask for it to glue
yithril [1d\]: oh ok
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: okies
yithril [1d\]: well maybe next week ill ask
yithril [1d\]: but for today ill just type
HonFu [4k\]: good for me though,, since my compis still without sound ...
Unplugged [-\]: the only condition being you have to teach regularly
yithril [1d\]: done
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: what is "regularly" ?
Unplugged [-\]: :)
despise [6k\]: unplugged you seem to have been waiting to say that
Unplugged [-\]: i just came in, despise
despise [6k\]: oh lol
yithril [1d\]: ok lets begin
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: YEY!
yithril [1d\]: bit of a delay today cuz of comp stuff
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: *throws party*
yithril [1d\]: ill say this again at the end but
yithril [1d\]: for past lectures
yithril [1d\]: you can go to http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/resources.html
reggel [7k\]: *calls cops to stop chem's party cuz i feel like it*
yithril [1d\]: and ther are sgf files you can download to study at your own convenience
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: *introduces reggel to a hot girl and waits to see what happens* :p
yithril [1d\]: so todays topic is a bit of a misnomer
yithril [1d\]: because sanrensei is much different in terms of definite lines of play than say the mini chinese or the high/low chinese fusekis
yithril [1d\]: that is to say
]
(;B[pd]
;W[dp]
(;B[pp]C[HonFu [4k\]: haha ^^
]
(;W[dd]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: hm
]
;B[pj]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: is the wedge normal against mini-chinese?
yithril [1d\]: yes, but we'll save that for another day
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: kz
despise [6k\]: so no microphone?
yithril [1d\]: cant :/
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: no mic this week
yithril [1d\]: need teaching account
yithril [1d\]: next week should be ok
despise [6k\]: aww i cant watch while i play
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: hehe
yithril [1d\]: so this is the sanrensei
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: stay on topic guys only so much time
yithril [1d\]: given the strength level of people in the room i would say youd all be familiar with this
yithril [1d\]: persona have you seen this formation before?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: even 20k plays sanrensei then doesn't use it right
yithril [1d\]: prolly asleep.
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: hes' in a game
reggel [7k\]: yes i use to do that fuseki all the time!
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: so probalby busy
Shana [2k\]: ya
yithril [1d\]: the purpose of the middle stone is for black to create a large amount of influence on one side of the board.
yithril [1d\]: since all the stones are high
yithril [1d\]: black is ideally seeking to make a huge box like formation
yithril [1d\]: and to create a moyo with a lot of depth
yithril [1d\]: the influence could also be used to convert other parts of the board into territory
yithril [1d\]: or break up your opponent
reggel [7k\]: i got a question....if w attacked too early at R 6 wat would probally be a good way to respond?
yithril [1d\]: influence is difficult to use in go because you invest a lot of stones and you don't know exactly how they're going to be used in the future
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: reggel - kick, remove base, chase
yithril [1d\]: if you dont make them work then you spent a lot of moves for nothin
yithril [1d\]: g
yithril [1d\]: first
yithril [1d\]: a common mistake
]
(;W[qf]TR[jc][jq]C[yithril [1d\]: this move is too early
LucSengoku [4k\]: that move isnt good direction
yithril [1d\]: white has no help on either side of the board
yithril [1d\]: and he immediately invades the part of the board where black has the most influence
yithril [1d\]: as chem says
yithril [1d\]: we should immediately take advantage as b
yithril [1d\]: so as we see
yithril [1d\]: this is totally wrong
reggel [7k\]: wen w went to 0 17
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: he means
]
;B[qe]C[yithril [1d\]: kick the stone to remove its eyespace
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: :)
]
(;W[pf]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: at least white runs in good shape :)
]
(;B[nd]C[yithril [1d\]: now q10 is in the way of w
yithril [1d\]: for a reason
yithril [1d\]: its so white cant attach and make strength
yithril [1d\]: ur already pincering white
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: okies
yithril [1d\]: q10 is doing its jumb
yithril [1d\]: *job
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: so no need
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: k gotcha
yithril [1d\]: you dont want white to lean so
]
(;W[qh]C[reggel [7k\]: one more question
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: it's ok for black to be high bc white is weak
LucSengoku [4k\]: ah i see
yithril [1d\]: also ur trying to attack
]
;B[ri]C[reggel [7k\]: so r 13 = no no.... got it
yithril [1d\]: this is an important move as well
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: jon, what about playing R12 instead of O16?
masek [-\]: s10 =)there such move=)
]
;W[mg]C[masek [-\]: for white
yithril [1d\]: then oftentimes white wil ljump
])
(;AE[pj]
;W[qj]C[LucSengoku [4k\]: black is a bit high yes?
yithril [1d\]: we'd like to extend here or high
yithril [1d\]: no
]))
(;B[nc]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: whit can't attack bc he doesn't have time
reggel [7k\]: if w doesnt q 14 and goes to r 11 would r 13 be a good way to punish?
yithril [1d\]: this move doesnt put pressure on white like the higher one does
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: his group has one eye at most
LucSengoku [4k\]: k
])
(;B[qh]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: like in an handi game
yithril [1d\]: this?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: yes
]
;W[od]C[yithril [1d\]: black extends 
LucSengoku [4k\]: white can get a base
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: granted B isn't settleed but white is so weak
yithril [1d\]: hre
])
(;B[ne]C[yithril [1d\]: you mean this?
reggel [7k\]: no
]))
(;W[qi]C[yithril [1d\]: omg this sucks
yithril [1d\]: shoulder hits from below
yithril [1d\]: are rarely good
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: hane at the head of two stones without thinking :)
yithril [1d\]: yeah and while they run you make points
yithril [1d\]: good deal
]
;B[qj]C[yithril [1d\]: thx white
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: ouch
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: white's shape is awful
yithril [1d\]: you simply block like this
yithril [1d\]: the lower right
yithril [1d\]: is solidifying
yithril [1d\]: and white has to deal with this group
reggel [7k\]: oh....cuz wen that use to happn i used to go to r 13
yithril [1d\]: because the next move is terribly severe
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: no no R13 is awful
LucSengoku [4k\]: no way to live their without running yes?
]
;W[pi]
;B[oi]
;W[oh]
;B[nh]C[yithril [1d\]: if he tries this you just play severely
]))
(;W[nc]C[yithril [1d\]: normal move is for white to approach here
yithril [1d\]: or
reggel [7k\]: if w o 15 do u punish with n 16 or do  u go to o 13?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: q14 o15 
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: now
]
(;B[lc]C[reggel [7k\]: after b q 14
yithril [1d\]: the pincer
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: good
HonFu [4k\]: yeah, good
yithril [1d\]: in future lectures
yithril [1d\]: we'll do
yithril [1d\]: now onto this
HonFu [4k\]: blach hopes for r17 right?
yithril [1d\]: its not so much hope
yithril [1d\]: its the normal move
yithril [1d\]: but there are plenty of options
yithril [1d\]: okay thats all the time i alloted for today
yithril [1d\]: so we will stop here
HonFu [4k\]: I am one of those sprinklers ^_°
yithril [1d\]: i hope everyone enjoyed the lecture today
HonFu [4k\]: yes
kilroy [2d\]: thank you
yithril [1d\]: again if you miss any of them the website is http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/resources.html
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: really did jon, thanks
HonFu [4k\]: thanks a lot
yithril [1d\]: any suggestions for next weeks?
yithril [1d\]: not endgame ;)
HonFu [4k\]: haha ^^
Unplugged [-\]: thx yithril
megaman [9k?\]: incasions how to handle em
megaman [9k?\]: invasions*
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: we did that last week
megaman [9k?\]: what!
yithril [1d\]: we had an invasion lecture last week
HonFu [4k\]: strange openings
Unplugged [-\]: the bad shapes -_-
HonFu [4k\]: like 5-5
megaman [9k?\]: and i messed it
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: can we do avalance?
yithril [1d\]: oh god
yithril [1d\]: shoot me
HonFu [4k\]: center openings!
yithril [1d\]: avalanche?
megaman [9k?\]: they have it in arcives right?
yithril [1d\]: yes
megaman [9k?\]: ok i'll find it thx
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: hm
HonFu [4k\]: unusual stuff which opens our minds
yithril [1d\]: todays was a bit hard
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: now about one-space low pince following a one-space high approach to komoku stone?
yithril [1d\]: wasnt any variations that stuck out as popular
yithril [1d\]: *werent
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: some of those joseki are really tough
]
(;W[qc]C[HonFu [4k\]: but how about r14?
yithril [1d\]: we'll get to all of that
yithril [1d\]: be patient
HonFu [4k\]: okay !
yithril [1d\]: first
]
(;B[pc]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: yithril's patience is the reason he has a d and we have ks
yithril [1d\]: dont block like this
yithril [1d\]: i do not want to see this
]
;W[qd]
;B[pe]
;W[pb]
;B[ob]
;W[qb]
;B[oc]
;W[qf]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: B sente but bad direction
yithril [1d\]: exactly
yithril [1d\]: q10 is is not in a place that is easy to develop from
yithril [1d\]: the original meaning to retain influence on the right side
yithril [1d\]: is pretty much erased
yithril [1d\]: when white r14
yithril [1d\]: blacks stones are not efficient 
])
(;B[qd]C[yithril [1d\]: this is the correct direction and the reason we pincered white
]
;W[pc]
;B[od]
(;W[nb]
;B[me]LB[qh:B][ql:A]C[yithril [1d\]: im sure most of us have seen this joseki
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: this is so beautful for black
yithril [1d\]: now
yithril [1d\]: b's wall at q16
yithril [1d\]: works in conjunction with q10
yithril [1d\]: which links to q4
yithril [1d\]: so now b's influence is radiating across the entire board
yithril [1d\]: first off
yithril [1d\]: let me make a few comments
yithril [1d\]: that relate back to my earlier comments about why influence is hard
yithril [1d\]: i want to stress
yithril [1d\]: that black has influence not territory
yithril [1d\]: white took territory in the upper right
yithril [1d\]: those are sure fire points
yithril [1d\]: black builds a large framework
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: I just have a feeling that B's result is far superior here :)
yithril [1d\]: but later if white has patience and builds strenght, or is just plain good at fighting
yithril [1d\]: moves like A and B come into play in the middle game a lot
yithril [1d\]: not saying its easy
yithril [1d\]: but its possible for white to eventually invade b's moyo
]
;W[nq]C[reggel [7k\]: but why would w want to go to r 17,,,whouldnt w wanna o 15?
yithril [1d\]: also possible but taking the corner was the most popular move
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: he'll get to that in a minute :)
yithril [1d\]: cuz its territory vs influence
reggel [7k\]: oh ok
yithril [1d\]: whites strategy
yithril [1d\]: is to take points
yithril [1d\]: and say "ok black you build a big thing but what if i reduce it just enough to win?
HonFu [4k\]: can black play o15 now?
HonFu [4k\]: o 5
HonFu [4k\]: sorry
]
(;B[lq]C[yithril [1d\]: but i digress
HonFu [4k\]: wont kick and attack work after A?
HonFu [4k\]: Or, sorry
yithril [1d\]: there are a bajillion things you can do at any given moment
yithril [1d\]: try to work it out yourself with gobase or moyo go or if you have time
yithril [1d\]: get out a board
yithril [1d\]: and try things
yithril [1d\]: its a good way to learn
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
]
;W[qq]
;B[qp]
;W[pq]C[yithril [1d\]: i did find some games like this
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: since B's result is so good, why would white chose this josek?
]
;B[op]
(;W[nr]
;B[mo]C[yithril [1d\]: personally
yithril [1d\]: in such a game
yithril [1d\]: i would be terrified as white
HonFu [4k\]: me too
])
(;W[rq]C[yithril [1d\]: in this game
yithril [1d\]: white went to s3
megaman [9k?\]: thats why we have more than one joseki
yithril [1d\]: oftentimes i play this
yithril [1d\]: because i know
]
;B[np]
;W[nr]C[yithril [1d\]: after this exchange my opponent will immediately just forgoe sente
yithril [1d\]: and play s4
]
;B[gp]C[Takemiya Masaki vs Cho Chikunyithril [1d\]: now
yithril [1d\]: we might think
yithril [1d\]: omg
HonFu [4k\]: is closing off too slow?
yithril [1d\]: i recommend to stretch your minds
yithril [1d\]: and your moyos
yithril [1d\]: and think big picture
LucSengoku [4k\]: lol
]
(;W[dn]
;B[gm]
;W[dl]
;B[gj]LB[mp:A]C[yithril [1d\]: takemiya built a moyo of death
yithril [1d\]: this i just plain dizzying
HonFu [4k\]: wow. looks huge
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: <--- thinks white should resign
reggel [7k\]: b wouldnt be so happy
yithril [1d\]: when b is big like this
yithril [1d\]: we need to come in
yithril [1d\]: because if we dont we just lose
yithril [1d\]: so when we invade
HonFu [4k\]: so black got a target
yithril [1d\]: we need to spot where our opponent is weak
yithril [1d\]: any little weakness we can make use of
]
;W[mp]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: now white has to make this live
yithril [1d\]: when white cuts
]
;B[mq]C[HonFu [4k\]: of course you have to know how to handle it
reggel [7k\]: but if w makes a suscfull invasion in the middle
yithril [1d\]: obviously b cuts
]
;W[mo]
;B[jp]C[yithril [1d\]: b prevents white from playing here
]
;W[on]C[yithril [1d\]: now white attacks the side stones
yithril [1d\]: s3 is sticking out
yithril [1d\]: and q 10 is a bit far away
yithril [1d\]: b does have to respond
Unplugged [-\]: lol
]
;B[qm]
;W[mm]C[yithril [1d\]: white didnt resign
yithril [1d\]: he fought
yithril [1d\]: so white used the cut
yithril [1d\]: and the s3 stone
yithril [1d\]: to at least make some shape
yithril [1d\]: within blacks cosmic moyo
yithril [1d\]: cho chikun is white and these types of places he is very strong
reggel [7k\]: when i used to use that fuseki i normally lost cuz i made TOO big moyo...
yithril [1d\]: i reccomend going to the friday night files website
yithril [1d\]: and downloading his game collection
yithril [1d\]: he is a master at invading large moyos
yithril [1d\]: where normal humans would otherwise perish
LucSengoku [4k\]: i prefer go siegen or sakata
LucSengoku [4k\]: :)
yithril [1d\]: go seigen is on crack
yithril [1d\]: and sakata is cool
])
(;W[ro]C[yithril [1d\]: white can jump in here
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: I think white should resign XD
yithril [1d\]: what'll i do??
yithril [1d\]: breathe first
yithril [1d\]: and calmly make the moyo you were already making
]
;B[qn]C[yithril [1d\]: something like this
yithril [1d\]: white crawls along the edge
yithril [1d\]: gets 1 point a move or so
yithril [1d\]: neither does he really damage your stones
yithril [1d\]: and you get outside moves
yithril [1d\]: that create future profit
yithril [1d\]: good deal for b
])))
(;B[no]C[yithril [1d\]: its an interesting move
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: O5 is insteresting joseki and rarely see it
yithril [1d\]: and there are games liek this
]
;W[lp]LB[qn:A]C[yithril [1d\]: keep in mind though
yithril [1d\]: that later this side is still a bit vulnerable
]))
(;W[rc]
;B[nd]
;W[nb]
(;B[jp])
(;B[gd]C[Takemiya]
;W[df]
;B[jp]))))
(;W[ne]C[yithril [1d\]: now
yithril [1d\]: i found it interesting
yithril [1d\]: i only found a few games like this
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: I play this way as white
yithril [1d\]: no one really played this as white
]
;B[pf]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: maybe not so good? XD
]
;W[kd]
(;B[ld]
;W[le]
;B[kc]
;W[jd]C[despise [6k\]: and W doesnt have any bases 
]
;B[jc]
;W[id]
;B[hc]
;W[hd]
;B[gc]C[megaman [9k?\]: i've had games like this
]
;W[gd]
;B[fc]
;W[fd]C[yithril [1d\]: one person
yithril [1d\]: totalyl closed black
]
;B[ec]
;W[ed]
;B[ck]LB[dd:1][ed:2][fd:3][gd:4][hd:5][id:6][jd:7][kd:8]C[Unplugged [-\]: incredible
yithril [1d\]: but then the problem became that black stunted his thickness
despise [6k\]: B seems good
despise [6k\]: he has alot of territory
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: idunno, that is a ton to thickness
yithril [1d\]: white invested 8 stones
Unplugged [-\]: i love w
yithril [1d\]: this is a large investment
HonFu [4k\]: but black is safe
despise [6k\]: well thinkness doesnt matter if B has lots of invasions
]
;W[ci]
;B[cn]
;W[dc]C[yithril [1d\]: the game went on like this
yithril [1d\]: and i think b won
despise [6k\]: told you >.>
yithril [1d\]: however the game was spectacular 
yithril [1d\]: because the use of thicknes smade invasions along the side possible
])
(;B[oc]
;W[kc]
;B[nb]C[despise [6k\]: or something like that
]
;W[mc]
;B[mb]
;W[lb]C[yithril [1d\]: in this game black went for territory
]))
(;W[qf]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: why play sanrensei and go for territory? XD
yithril [1d\]: beats me
yithril [1d\]: i prefer the large moyo games ith sanrensei
yithril [1d\]: not onto this bad boy
despise [6k\]: it looks good for territory
yithril [1d\]: *now
yithril [1d\]: technically
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: attach on the side without the pincer?
yithril [1d\]: the fight should be good for b
despise [6k\]: well yeah it seems weird
yithril [1d\]: well there are two moves i found
yithril [1d\]: remember
yithril [1d\]: white is on blacks turf
Unplugged [-\]: r14 is always scary to play against
Unplugged [-\]: ^^
yithril [1d\]: we dont want to attach to make him stronger
yithril [1d\]: so if our opponent thinks tha tsprinkling stones in your moyo will magically work
yithril [1d\]: don't let him confuse you
]
(;B[oe]C[yithril [1d\]: i found games where b split
yithril [1d\]: but also
yithril [1d\]: this is much simpler
yithril [1d\]: maintain seperation and focus on direction
]
;W[qc]
;B[qd]
;W[pc]
(;B[me]C[yithril [1d\]: oops
yithril [1d\]: black played here
yithril [1d\]: this is what black wanted
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: i really like b's posistion
yithril [1d\]: in the first place
])
(;B[md]C[yithril [1d\]: if white takes corner
yithril [1d\]: we continue 
]))
(;B[qc]
;W[oe]C[yithril [1d\]: like this
yithril [1d\]: and aim at the cutting
yithril [1d\]: totally violent game
]))
(;W[qd]C[yithril [1d\]: this is a cool hamete
Unplugged [-\]: yeah
HonFu [4k\]: oh my god ..
Unplugged [-\]: famous
HonFu [4k\]: what is hamete?
yithril [1d\]: trick move
Unplugged [-\]: trick play
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: trick play
yithril [1d\]: hameru means to fool
megaman [9k?\]: tesuji
HonFu [4k\]: ah - for handicap plays
HonFu [4k\]: ?
despise [6k\]: interesting
yithril [1d\]: even for even games
despise [6k\]: i like trick moves
yithril [1d\]: its good to know some hamete
yithril [1d\]: maybe ill ask my 7d friend
yithril [1d\]: some of the ones he knows
]))
(;B[pf]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: ok, bc I always feel playing fuseki as white is bad and I see it lose more than win
yithril [1d\]: we're going to look at this move
yithril [1d\]: it wins a good rate in pro games
yithril [1d\]: takemiya makes beautiful moyos as white
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: peep isn't good for black
yithril [1d\]: im not sure what ur talking about reggel but lets continue
reggel [7k\]: w/e
yithril [1d\]: so as i was saying
yithril [1d\]: today we're going to look at this move
yithril [1d\]: and
yithril [1d\]: the meaning of this move is to develop the right side
yithril [1d\]: very simple
yithril [1d\]: and i personally like it
HonFu [4k\]: okay, sounds great ^^
]
(;W[pb]C[yithril [1d\]: territorial players will slide here
]
(;B[jp]LB[pp:A]TR[pj][jp]C[yithril [1d\]: when white slides most times pros rush towards the bottom
HonFu [4k\]: already tenuki?
yithril [1d\]: reason is
HonFu [4k\]: r17 too early?
yithril [1d\]: the marked stones
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: i tend to think sliding in the corner is best left for later in the game
yithril [1d\]: work well with blacks q4 stone
])
(;B[fq]
;W[dn]
;B[jp]
;W[qq]
;B[qp]
;W[pq]
;B[nq]
;W[nr]
;B[mq]
;W[rp]
;B[ro]
;W[rq]
;B[qn]
;W[oq]
;B[op]
;W[qc]
;B[me]
;W[cj]
;B[qd]
;W[mr]
;B[lc]
;W[fc])
(;B[qc]C[reggel [7k\]: amaterasu or how ever u say his name
yithril [1d\]: looks like white tenukis
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: that's wrong
yithril [1d\]: there are games like this too
]
(;W[kc]
;B[jp]
;W[hq]C[yithril [1d\]: in this game white went here
yithril [1d\]: h3
yithril [1d\]: since k4 is high
yithril [1d\]: its got a weakness beneath
yithril [1d\]: and white is emphasizing territory this game
yithril [1d\]: hence the sliding at the top
LucSengoku [4k\]: whats the response here
yithril [1d\]: ill give everyone a few seconds to think on that
yithril [1d\]: whats a good response for b here?
despise [6k\]: wat id miss
reggel [7k\]: im geussing h 4
HonFu [4k\]: leave it for now?
HonFu [4k\]: c6?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: K4 or tenuki
reggel [7k\]: h 4 is my best geus
yithril [1d\]: theres a stone at k4 ;)
LucSengoku [4k\]: k4 is their already
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: i mean
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: K3
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: XD
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: or tenuki
yithril [1d\]: all interesting
yithril [1d\]: ok
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: both look good to me
despise [6k\]: same thing they both go toward center
]
(;B[ho]C[yithril [1d\]: this is the move
yithril [1d\]: the cap
HonFu [4k\]: isnt this a bit early?
yithril [1d\]: ?
despise [6k\]: no
despise [6k\]: its good
yithril [1d\]: dont know why it'd be early...
HonFu [4k\]: centers still so open, no?
yithril [1d\]: its move 13
HonFu [4k\]: hmm okay
yithril [1d\]: of course its open
yithril [1d\]: we're building it ;)
despise [6k\]: if you  want center y not just tengen
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: bc
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: this move
despise [6k\]: lot easier
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: limits white's potential
yithril [1d\]: also
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: tengen does not
yithril [1d\]: it has a threat
LucSengoku [4k\]: tengen doesnt do much in this case
despise [6k\]: i mean in the beginning
yithril [1d\]: they're no tthe same but the difference is not blakc and white
despise [6k\]: the san thingy just takes longer
LucSengoku [4k\]: this move....white can enter the moyo
yithril [1d\]: tengen is unclear how it develops
yithril [1d\]: or how it will be useful
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: sanrensei has more direction
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: :)
yithril [1d\]: anyways
]
(;W[fq]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: i was white ofc :)
yithril [1d\]: so white will defend
despise [6k\]: instead of going out of your way for all these moves when you could start with tengen
yithril [1d\]: this is a good shape to know
yithril [1d\]: tengen isnt that great
yithril [1d\]: i hate to burst your bubble ;)
HonFu [4k\]: haha ^^
yithril [1d\]: its not a clear move
despise [6k\]: wats so bad about it
yithril [1d\]: its not bad
LucSengoku [4k\]: its not bad
HonFu [4k\]: but what do, if black played tengen instead?
yithril [1d\]: its unclear
despise [6k\]: it helps build moyo for later
despise [6k\]: i mean i get wat this does no doubt
LucSengoku [4k\]: cant white k2 or j4 and enter moyo?
despise [6k\]: but they both end in moyo
yithril [1d\]: its better to be patient
LucSengoku [4k\]: blacks shape is messed up at j3
]
(;B[pn]C[Yu Ping vs Chen Huifengyithril [1d\]: this is Yu Ping vs Chen Huifeng
yithril [1d\]: however b played this move
yithril [1d\]: to try and make his right really strong and force white to act
yithril [1d\]: keep in mind
]
(;W[lp]C[yithril [1d\]: white invaded her
yithril [1d\]: because
yithril [1d\]: normally
]
;B[iq]
;W[hp]
;B[kn]
;W[pq]C[yithril [1d\]: and the game went on to this
yithril [1d\]: where white had to fight very hard in blacks area of control
yithril [1d\]: just what black wanted ;)
])
(;W[]
;B[ld]
;W[lc]
;B[nd]C[yithril [1d\]: b  has this sequence at the top
despise [6k\]: looks too concentrated on
yithril [1d\]: to press white down
yithril [1d\]: and now b's potential is huge
]))
(;B[iq]
;W[hp]
;B[io]C[yithril [1d\]: this sequence will continue like this
]))
(;W[]
;B[gq]C[yithril [1d\]: h3 will not die
yithril [1d\]: but it will suffer
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: oooooooohhhhhhhhhh I saw this shape against unplugged today :)
yithril [1d\]: and b will be even stronger on the outside
])
(;W[jr]C[yithril [1d\]: move 14
yithril [1d\]: and we're playing on second line
LucSengoku [4k\]: j4?
])
(;W[ip]
;B[io]C[yithril [1d\]: thanks?
LucSengoku [4k\]: ah a wall
]))
(;B[jq]C[yithril [1d\]: this is abit slow
despise [6k\]: f3
YukiSakura [5k\]: f3
yithril [1d\]: and ur protecting the edge territory
yithril [1d\]: when ur have stones that make potential in the center
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: F3 looks like overplay to me
despise [6k\]: not really
])
(;B[hp]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: okies maybe this is why I don't play sanrensei
yithril [1d\]: h4 is a bad idea
despise [6k\]: k3 looks like a waste
]
;W[gp]
;B[ho]C[yithril [1d\]: ur helping white
reggel [7k\]: :(....sigh
yithril [1d\]: needlessly
despise [6k\]: oh yeah we're going for center
])
(;B[jj]C[yithril [1d\]: here?
HonFu [4k\]: yeah
LucSengoku [4k\]: if u play tengen from beginning, and u dont get influence, what then?
yithril [1d\]: white will invade bottom easily
yithril [1d\]: cuz ur weak there
LucSengoku [4k\]: black isnt solid at all, u cant play that yet
yithril [1d\]: this move
yithril [1d\]: is highly unlear
despise [6k\]: if your B you can just tengen then make corners dont forget B goes first
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: despise is about sanrensei opening not tengen opening
LucSengoku [4k\]: in theory, sounds simple
yithril [1d\]: ok we're getting off track
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: stay on topic please
]))
(;W[]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: no
]
;B[lc]
;W[ne]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: white can't tenuki there
yithril [1d\]: this is not good for w
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: this hurts too much
reggel [7k\]: says u can punish o 15 with n 16
])))
(;W[jd]C[yithril [1d\]: you can also try to go for a moyo
]
;B[jp]
;W[hq]
(;B[ho])
(;B[cj]))
(;W[ne]C[yithril [1d\]: seems weird
reggel [7k\]: does b n 16 or o 13?
yithril [1d\]: theres no real base for w
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: white is baseless
Shana [2k\]: too far away from w corner stone
]
(;B[kc]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: just take away the base
yithril [1d\]: id just attack immediately
])
(;B[lc]
;W[pb]
;B[qc]C[yithril [1d\]: if like this
yithril [1d\]: it looks like 
])))
(;B[oe]
;W[nq]
;B[oo]
;W[dj]
;B[jj]
;W[ld]
;B[mp]
;W[qq]
;B[qp]
;W[pq]
;B[mq]
;W[np]
;B[no]
;W[nr]
;B[lf])
(;B[jd]C[yithril [1d\]: this one
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: unplugged played this against me this morning
])
(;B[nb]C[Unplugged [-\]: im off to bed
yithril [1d\]: i think this one is too
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: THIS MOVE
Unplugged [-\]: thx again
Unplugged [-\]: g'nite
HonFu [4k\]: nite
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: nite :)  sleep well
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: jon
Unplugged [-\]: hehe chem
HonFu [4k\]: oh man, what a move ...
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: really... what to do here?
Unplugged [-\]: i did it agst you
yithril [1d\]: i forgot
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: kogos says basically nothing on this move
yithril [1d\]: jin likes this
Unplugged [-\]: take ponnuki
HonFu [4k\]: q17?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: just take ponnuki?
Unplugged [-\]: yes
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: isn't b's corner and sente too big?
Unplugged [-\]: and give b2bomber to b
yithril [1d\]: hmm
yithril [1d\]: i was planning on doing more opening stuff
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: so
Unplugged [-\]: anyway, im away, slee^ping
despise [6k\]: q17 work
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: p18 p17 n18 q18 o19 ?
HonFu [4k\]: really!?
HonFu [4k\]: cool ^^
Unplugged [-\]: q17 is tricked
despise [6k\]: y not just q17?
]
;W[pc]C[despise [6k\]: oh and cya unplug
yithril [1d\]: looks weird
yithril [1d\]: edge here?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: B will split I think
HonFu [4k\]: answer trick with trick sounds fair
]
;B[oc]C[yithril [1d\]: oh well
yithril [1d\]: so ill think on it
HonFu [4k\]: ^^
yithril [1d\]: so far its hamete, weird opening moves
despise [6k\]: y not make influence
HonFu [4k\]: yesss!!
yithril [1d\]: and something else was in the mix
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: get takemeba to help with weird openings?
despise [6k\]: mess B plan up a bit
despise [6k\]: p16 p18 q15 r16 o15 
yithril [1d\]: i was maybe going to compose problems
yithril [1d\]: cuz we havent done a terrible amount of stiuff on the middle game
yithril [1d\]: just t he invasion lecture
HonFu [4k\]: what kind of problems?
yithril [1d\]: whole board ones
HonFu [4k\]: ah ... also cool
yithril [1d\]: i create them  on my own
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: there is a set of things you can download... "whole board thinking"
yithril [1d\]: it'd be good to just sit down and do like 5-7
yithril [1d\]: where?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: I think the site went down XD  there was a site masek showed me with go stuff
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: also there are good problems in "in the begining"
yithril [1d\]: always could do more
HonFu [4k\]: but only a few ...
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: also really liked the problems in attack and defense
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: but those are midgame
HonFu [4k\]: in Positional judfgement are also a few
]
;W[ob]
;B[od]
;W[mb]
;B[pb]
;W[na]
;B[qc]C[ChemBoy613 [6k\]: too nice for black
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: he's very strong
HonFu [4k\]: but p16 outta place
yithril [1d\]: white has outside ponnuki
HonFu [4k\]: and gote
yithril [1d\]: seems worth more
]))
(;W[dj]C[yithril [1d\]: make a competing moyo
yithril [1d\]: both are fine and playable
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: isn't mirroring fuseki too slow?
yithril [1d\]: pick whichever one oyu like more when you play oyur games
yithril [1d\]: no chem
yithril [1d\]: its true that since white goes second
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: B gets extra move and can stay ahead?
yithril [1d\]: he's one move behind
yithril [1d\]: but
yithril [1d\]: that doesnt mean its impossible for w
Shana [2k\]: b is supposed to be ahead cuz he gets first move
yithril [1d\]: we'll look at some examples
yithril [1d\]: and this one if we have time today
]
(;B[jp]
;W[jd]
;B[jj])
(;B[fq]C[Kato Masao - Sakata Eiou]
;W[nc]
;B[pf]
;W[dn]
;B[jp]
;W[jd]
;B[pn]
;W[df]
;B[me]
;W[go]
;B[hp]
;W[ld]
;B[kf]
;W[kn]
;B[in])))
(;W[dc]
;B[pj]
;W[di]
;B[jp]
;W[nc]
;B[oe]
;W[qc]
;B[qd]
;W[pc]
;B[md]))
(;B[qp]
;W[dd]
;B[fq]
;W[cn]
;B[kq]
;W[qj]
;B[qg]
;W[qm]
;B[pn]C[yithril [1d\]: with openings like the high chinese
yithril [1d\]: there are set moves you can study
yithril [1d\]: and lines of play that occur frequently in pro games
yithril [1d\]: sanrensei is not really like that
]))
(;B[qd]
;W[od]
;B[mc]C[yithril [1d\]: this?
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: I know the basic one but the varriations are difficult
yithril [1d\]: i dont know any josekis really
yithril [1d\]: like 2 here i think
yithril [1d\]: i know like maybe 10-15 total
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: oh okies :)  
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: :O
Unplugged [-\]: teach us hamete
yithril [1d\]: not a joseki expert ;)
Unplugged [-\]: :D
ChemBoy613 [6k\]: that means i know more joseki than you XD
]))
