NB: The following is the course conference that we had in Winter
      Term 1994 for Linguistics 210, Introduction to Linguistic Analysis.
      This was pre-Web, and shows it.  But it was very helpful.

      The names have been changed to protect the innocent,
      except for me, my GSI Leonora Sanchez, and Jimi Lee
      Haswell, who was a Confer facilitator from ITD.

From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 1     Jan03/94 13:17     9 lines   164 responses
John Lawler                        
Welcome! and Sign In, Please.

   Welcome.  This is a course conference, and we'll be using it for
 a lot of things.  For the moment, use this item to sign in... to
 introduce yourself, say something about yourself, maybe how and
 why you're taking this course, and practice responding in Confer.
 
   This is very easy software to use, and one can find out much more
 about how to use it.  We'll have an item about that, too.  For now,
 the most important command to know is NEW.  And, below, try out the
 RESPOND command.

Related items:
    2

  164 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:22
1:1)  Jake:
 Gee, hi. OK, maybe I don;t know this system  as well as I thought
 I did.
 I really like linguistics: matter of fact, that's my major. Hah.
 I like SF, role-playing, MST3K ans boring stuff like that.
  I spend way too muc the computer, but, as the man said:
 I'll get a life when someone proves to me
 it would be superior to what I have now. :-)
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:23
1:2)  Better late than Kevin:
 I know lots about things in general, but very little about anything
 in particular, although I am a three-year veteran of MTS.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:28
1:3)  Mark:
 I think I'm going to like this once I get the hang of things!
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:29
1:4)  Better late than Kevin:
 I'm not a huge fan of Linguistics, though I do find it occasionally
 interesting.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:35
1:5)  Kiran:
 i I am very confused.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:39
1:6)  Zachary:
 This is crazy stuff!
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:39
1:7)  Nicholas:
 Hi there everyone. I'm known as Nico (short for Nicolas in French... :) ).
 I'm a ResComp consultant and so if anyone needs any help about all this
 confer stuff, feel free to email me.
 I'm an aerospace engineer who speaks fluent French. Thought I'd take this
 class to see what linguistics was all about...
 
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:43
1:8)  Jake:
 Linguistik war von dem Deutcher erfunden!!!!
 Alle Franzoesische muss umbringen werden.
 (Only kidding :-) )
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:44
1:9)  Jill:
 I think this will be ok once I understand it better!
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:49
1:10)  Gary:
 Like Jill, I feel that this will become easier as time passes.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:01
1:11)  Tara:
 This is interesting....
 I hope I can get through this quicker from now on.  Write me!
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:08
1:12)  Nicholas:
 Jake, what does umbringen mean. Et puis entre nous c'est vraiment pas tres
 poli de dire des trucs en allemand quand on est pas sur que tout le monde
 vous comprend... But oh-well I guess people who speak German have an
 advantage in this class... yes?! :)
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:16
1:13)  Mitchell:
 I'm working on getting better with this conference.  I can't wait to do this 
 me later.  I can do it from my home computer. SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:17
1:14)  Monica:
 I think that this will not stress me out in a couple days.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 15:03
1:15)  Samuel:
 I'm a Engineering Freshman from San Juan, Puerto Rico.  I'am taking this 
 class because some friends told me it was very interesting.  Looking forward
 to that.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 16:26
1:16)  Sean:
 I'm a Classical Archaeology major, so the only linguistic things I really
 need to worry about in terms of my career are probably those dealing with
 Ancient Greek and Latin. But, everyone I talked to about linguistics
 courses encouraged me to take this class (they all had good things to say)
 and so I did.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 02:04
1:17)  Mitchell:
 I'm writing this message from my home computer late Saturday night.  
 Tonight, i've been the victim of a series of weird phone calls.  I've put
 a stop to them by tying up the phone line responding to  this conference.
 I took linguistics after dropping my Chem class after learning that I needed
 a social science class.  I read a lot of Noam Chomsky anyway, so I said why
 not?  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 10:43
1:18)  John P:
 hey, a lively class...  :)
 i'm taking this course because i'm fascinated by language
 and by sound.  anybody else in the music school here?
- - - - -
Jan08/94 13:11
1:19)  Stephanie:
 I'm in this class because of the confer. 
 Any other Italian speakers out there, or am I gonna have to write in
 English all the time? I have no idea how to speak or read French or German...
 guess I am at a slight disadvantage. I would really like to know what SZCZ
 is...wait...I think it is the first four letters of his last name--quite
 some deductive reasoning there, huh!
- - - - -
Jan08/94 14:24
1:20)  Onuka:
 Hey everybody.  I'm in this class because I heard a lot of good things about
 it.  And this confer thing is pretty cool, too.  Can't wait to get things
 started.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 16:15
1:21)  Mitchell:
 Right you are, Stephanie.  SZCZ is also the name of my alias on America 
 OnLIne and on the new Z-Bulletin board system (ZBBS, by the writers and
 readers of Z Magazine)  BTW, it'spronounced shch (asin Khrushchev) SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 19:53
1:22)  Jake:
 And, fortunatly, Mitchell, since confer is so nice as to post who wrote
 the message at the beginning of the post, you don't have to leave
 a .sig. Saves time, that's all. And harassement by me :)
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:11
1:23)  Calvin:
 I signed in...
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:24
1:24)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Hoobah!!! Welcome, Calvin.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 11:35
1:25)  Laurie:
 Greetings, Will this class make the cosmic reason for the Tower of Babel
 clear to me?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:37
1:26)  Larry:
 Confer rule #17:  Please leave responses in English when possible :)
 Anyway, I'm psyched about getting on another conference, but I'm not
 really sure what types of stuff we're going to be discussing.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 18:07
1:27)  Jake:
 Net law #1: There are _no_ laws on the net.
 And the only law-enforcers are the net-goers themselves.
 As a general rule: if you don't like itm don't read it.
 Oder man kann denken, dass Sie ganz verrueckt sind.
 Bpfftht. :-P
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:41
1:28)  Mitchell:
 Jake, could you kindly translate "Oder...sind."  Thanx
- - - - -
Jan09/94 20:13
1:29)  Larry:
 Point taken.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:03
1:30)  Jake:
 "Or people will think your nuts,"
 Loosely translated.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:23
1:31)  Stephanie:
 I thought that this confer was gonna be in english. Maybe i was wrong.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:31
1:32)  Better late than Kevin:
 It may be in English, but it hopefully won't always make sense.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 09:55
1:33)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [side comment. you could have a couple of foreign language items, like
 the German Item and the French Item, etc. The rule would be that you
 could only speak/write those languages (or try) in those items. Good
 learning experience.]
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:30
1:34)  Larry:
 Good idea! (Buen idea)
- - - - -
Jan10/94 16:54
1:35)  Jake:
 Bad idea. For a couple of reasons, nontheleast of which is the fact most
 languages already have their own confer.
 No-one reads everythging that gets posted: the volume is simply too
 high. Moreover, if someone does post in a foreign langauge, than the post
 is irrelevant to the ongoing conversation anyway, and can safely be ignored.
 However, someone could make items for varius languages, as long as those
 items have something to do with linguistics, which would be very hard.
  
 If you want to confer in another language, check out MTS. They must have
 on or two. Language news.groups also exist, I believe under alt.*, but
 II'll double check on that and make sure.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:00
1:36)  John Lawler:
 But conferences are different from newsgroups, Jake.  Everybody *does*
 read everything in a conference.  And can go back and re-read it
 as long as the conference lasts.  Different pragmatics, different
 communication.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:16
1:37)  Jake:
 Like I said, I won't post in German anymore.
 Or French, Latin, Ojibwe, etc...
- - - - -
Jan10/94 21:53
1:38)  Stephanie:
 Grazie, Jake.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 01:37
1:39)  Larry:
 OK, Jake, only Ojibwe though!
- - - - -
Jan11/94 18:18
1:40)  Jake:
 Well, I can't yet, cause the Prof for that class has been absent...
- - - - -
Jan11/94 19:34
1:41)  Heather:
 Please give english interpretations to any statements in foreign languages.
 That should solve the debate.  I decided to take linguistics because I
 learned a little about it in pl(oops!) in psychology and anthropology. 
 Write Me!
- - - - -
Jan11/94 19:59
1:42)  Zachary:
 Does anyone know what that extra 'w' is in Swahili numbers 21-24?  Iwould
 really appreciate some insight.  Thank you.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 20:01
1:43)  Cicely:
 Am I the only one who doesn't get most of this stuff?
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:33
1:44)  Jake:
 Zach, you are refered to i 15.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:40
1:45)  Vassoula:
 Well, I took the class because I heard that it was interseting
 However, I'm not very fond of the fact that you can't delete.
 I feel as though everyone already knows eachother.  I guess
 I an (LOVE the deleting action) a little behind, but at least
 I have my roommate in the class.  However, she's having slight
 difficulties getting it to work right.  Thus, if her intro about
 herself is a tad srt strange don't hold it against her.  I 
 guess she canceled it 
- - - - -
Jan12/94 02:05
1:46)  Matt:
 Hello everyone.  I'm sending my third message and I hope this doesn't
 disappear to the great computer in the sky. Does anyone know what the two
 mistakes are besides me being in this class and the fact that I'm still
 having problems with this English thing. Just in case you didn't get one of
 my many messages, I'm a second year Materials Science Engineer.  I like
 global warming, toxic waste and dorm food.  Cicely drop me a line and we can
 see who is more lost.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 07:58
1:47)  John Lawler:
 Don't despair, Vassoula.  You, too, can delete.  Check out Jimi Lee's
 instructions on Item 2.
  
 And most of the people *don't* know each other yet; it's just that the
 early folks on here did.  Which helps explain why they're early.
 
 And it's easy to change your intro.  Just say "CHANGE INTRO".
- - - - -
Jan12/94 16:30
1:48)  Sarah:
 Wow, that was a long list to read! However, I sould say I'm glad
 to be in this class because I just LOVE languages.  I'm a Korean 
 native and speak fluent Korean. If anybody here is taking Korean 
 class and needs help, feel free to call me. I seriously doubt
 anybody is though.  Anyway, I speak a little bit of Japanese and 
 am planning to go to a Japanese college for a year a few years 
 later. I also know how to sign!  If anybody does American Sign 
 Language here, please write me so we can practice!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:45
1:49)  Lee:
 HI(I too hate this no delete thing)  HI, I'm a third year math major.
 I thought this class looked interesting as an alternative to all of my
 confusing math classes.  Zach, I'm having the same problems as you on the 
 swahili w's.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:47
1:50)  Stephanie:
 You can delete, just not after you have hit return after the end of a line,
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:49
1:51)  Jake:
 Yes, but you can learn EDIT MODE.
 Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
 I'm so evil :-)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 18:13
1:52)  Lee:
 Aha, I got it now.  I think I like item 2.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 18:52
1:53)  Katrina:
 I'm signing in now. I took this class because I'm fascinated by languages
 (I'm a Japanese Language major) and I thought this would be interesting.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:32
1:54)  Kory:
 I know it took me awhile, but here I am.  I'm signed in and ready to go.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:29
1:55)  Cicely:
 Thanks Matt for your inspiration I'll drop you a line and we can be lost
 together! (oops! I'' it's supposed to be together.)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:29
1:56)  Mitchell:
 Sarah, there's someone in my dorm hall who's taking Korean.  If you'd like,
 I could tell him about your offer to help with Korean language difficulties.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 22:34
1:57)  Rob:
 I was just looking over the responses in the confer, and I think I know why
 there's an extra w in numbers 21-24.  By looking over the sheet it seems like
 the w is added of there's a him/her and the verb starts with a vowel.  I
 don't know if I'm right, because I don't know a thing about Swahili.  It
 might be for pronounciation purposes.  Also it seems like there are 3
 mistakes.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:06
1:58)  Jill:
 hey, matt-your not the only one lost, so am I-jill
- - - - -
Jan13/94 00:55
1:59)  Ghislaine:
 I am just learning so bear with me everyone!
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:02
1:60)  Jessie:
 Hey guys, sorry it took so long for me to get in here.  But after 
 several days of confusion and computer-phobia (!?) here I am.  I'm
 looking forward to discussing a lot of stuff with you guys, but
 once again, I'm afraid that I'm computer illiterate, so it might take
 a while for me to get the hang of it.  So far it seems like it's going
 to be a good time. (aside from everyone responding in foreign lang's.
 See ya!
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:17
1:61)  Mitul:
 hi.  this is my first time on confer.  it's pretty interesting.  my name is
 Mitul and i'm a first year student.  i'm pre-med and am taking this
 elective because i'm interested in learning about languages.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 23:26
1:62)  Sarah:
 Mitchell, (did I spell your name right? I came back to item 1 just
 to response and can't see your name on the screen!) you can tell 
 your friend that I'd be happy to help! But please remind him/her
 that I'm no world-best tutor! :)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 23:37
1:63)  Mitchell:
 Understood, Sarah.  I'll pass the information.  Thanx
- - - - -
Jan14/94 12:16
1:64)  Kiran:
 Hi, my name is Kiran. I'm a sophomore in LSA majoring in Biology. I still
 don't really know the purpose of this confer, since I have never done this
 before.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:58
1:65)  Dawn:
 Hi, I'm Dawn.  I took this class my counselor, along with Stephanie
 Molnar recommended it. I am a Freshman Biology major (major of the 
 week) and I CAN'T SPELL to save my life so just bear with me please!
 This is taking forever and I'm only on the first item!!!
- - - - -
Jan15/94 14:40
1:66)  Amy:
 Hey, I'm not sure if my previous message was posted or not...so, I'll just
 try again. I think you all are hilarious so far..and thats what is
 importantght? Yeah! Anyway, I took this class because it looked interesting
 and I needed another class desperately! ;) Anyway, see ya!
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:15
1:67)  Monica:
 I am not sure how you know when your message is recorded? Does anyone know?
 Has anyone started the homework due on Thurs.? I have and if anyone has 
 any clues on it they would be very helpful to me.Bye now.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 20:31
1:68)  John Lawler:
 It gets recorded, Monica.  Never fear.  But you won't see it until
 someone responds to it, then you get to see what their context is.
 
 Everybody else gets to see it right away.  But, please, *please*,
 don't call responses "messages".  There are messages you can send
 to people, but this is not one.  And my experience of many years
 using Confer in classes is that people who use the wrong terminology
 have a *much* harder time understanding what's happening, and can't
 generally get the benefits they ought to.  And occasionally they
 do something embarrassing, even.
 
 As in everything else, how you view something (and what you call it)
 affects how you use it.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 13:30
1:69)  Jennifer:
 hi i'm jennifer and i' not sure if i'm really on this confer thing.  this is
 the second time i've logged on, but i don't know if it worked the first time.
  oh well.  i hope i get the hang of this soon...
- - - - -
Jan17/94 21:22
1:70)  Mitchell:
 Hello, Jennifer.  Welcome aboard.  Don't worry if the conference seems 
 awkward at first--before you know it, you'll be an expert at it.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:11
1:71)  Tom:
 Yep,I finally figured this thing out.  I took this class because I also heard
 it was interesting.  Does anyone else know any Japanese?  I learned it as an
 exchange student .  I hope this comes out okay.  I believe I just made a
 mistake somewhere. I'm a Freshman in LS&A.  Well I'm done for now. help
 logout forget respond EDIT
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:24
1:72)  Dale:
 How do you send text to only one person again?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:31
1:73)  Larry:
 Use 't' for transmit at the DO NEXT prompt.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:32
1:74)  Jake:
 Type "t" to transmit.
 Enter the text, double return, and then it'll prompt you for
 the recipient.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:51
1:75)  Dale:
 Thanks Larry and Jake!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 19:20
1:76)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 You can also use Transmit at the RFP prompt!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 12:39
1:77)  Tom:
 Thanks guys.  Your response to Dale also helps me out.
 done
 stop
 opop
 stop
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:14
1:78)  Jennifer:
 tom, i'm in japanese 102 right now, so if you ever want to talk japanese,
 just confer me!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 16:35
1:79)  Sarah:
 Tom and Jennifer, I'm in Japanese 102 too. If you guys are interested,
 I can tell you when the next Japan Student Association meeting is.
 It's non-Japanese club and has a conversation group in which you can practice
 speaking Japanese with native speakers. Just confer me!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:07
1:80)  Joe:
 I'm not sure why I'm taking this class, but as an English major I'm getting
 really(oops!) sick of books, so the lack of a textbook was very appealing.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:56
1:81)  Margaret:
 Well, it has taken me two weeks to logon, thanks to the stupid engineering
 school, but here I am...Tom, Jennifer, and Sarah, I am in Japanese 202
 I took it for four years in high school, I lived there for two years, and
 I am going there to study next year.  This all means I have a very basic
 notion of the language, but I would love to talk, and please tell me when the
 next JSA meeting is.  How's Shook-sensei?  
     As for linguistics, I decided that I despised everything relating to 
 engineering, and so I am going for anything that is on the opposite side of
 the spectrum...so here I am!  Actually I love languages and foreign cultures,
 and I thought this would help me with me awful american-japanese accent! And
 anyone who knows gaelic and would like, or put up with, teaching me a little,
 I would be forever in your debt!
 sayonara!
 ps  excuse my spelling, and grammer. I type faster than I think (not very 
 fast...)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:23
1:82)  Tom:
 Margaret,I'm not sure when the next JSA meeting is.  But they just had a
 meeti last Friday.  I was unable to attend though.  But Sarah says she
 knows. Sarah Could you tell use when the next meeting is?  Thanks.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 19:40
1:83)  Melissa:
 Melissa: AAARGH!  I still hate computers.  But at least I finally
 logged on, after much grief.  Okay.  Hi Margaret, it's my postage stamp!  I'm
 taking this class because I really love linguistics, and basically I want to
 learn every language in existance.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:49
1:84)  Jake:
 Woman after my own heart :)
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:38
1:85)  Margaret:
 Melissa, if you want to learn every language in existance, you should begin
 with english...
 and figure out how to relate that to computers, for that matter...
 just kidding Meisha! :)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 00:27
1:86)  Zachary:
 This confer thing is sort of interesting, but very time consuming.  It is
 hard to make it to the computer everyday.  Well, I'll give it my best shot!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:54
1:87)  Melissa:
 People, get a life.  Pop, soda, swill, who cares.  And Marg, you *subsist*
 on Coke-who are you trying to kid?  Anyway, live in Michigan--speak
 Michigan.  Much as I hate Michigan.
 
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:33
1:88)  Jin Ho:
 I'm very lost in this class.  Would there be anyone willing to tutor me?
 send
 $endfile
 quit
 stop
 help
 end
 stop
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:07
1:89)  Sarah:
 The next JSA meeting is on January 28th, I think it's Friday, at 7:30 pm.
 It'll be held in the Pond room. It is not just for Japanese people, anyone
 who's interested in Japan is welcome! By the way, the Pond Room is on the 
 first floor of the Union. You'll see the signs there, and me, too. :)
 Please come and meet me, Margaret and Tom!(Just ask who Sarah is, almost 
 everybody can tell you) We'll talk some Linguistics! 
 One more thing, if you want to be a memeber of JSA, I think the fee is 
 $5, believe me, it's worth the money! :)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:15
1:90)  Kory:
 I agree with Zach.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:39
1:91)  Zachary:
 Kory has the right idea!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:48
1:92)  Lucas:
 Greetings, folks.  I got my uniquename two weeks ago but the computer
 would not let me sign on so I had every moniter oops  monitor help me
 and we finally e-mailed the head-honcho so now I'm on, confused, and I 
 hope I am doing this right.  could someone respond if they get this?
 thanks.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:52
1:93)  John Lawler:
 We all got it, Lucas.  You're on the air.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:12
1:94)  Margaret:
 Goood luck Lucas, don't hate the confer because it is going to take you
 three hours to catch up!!!!! :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:46
1:95)  Sarah:
 Margaret and Tom, I hope you guys wouldn't miss this. I just checked 
 with the JSA president and the meeting is tommorrow, Thursday at Pond
 the same time, 7:30. Sorry!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:03
1:96)  Margaret:
 Sarah, thanks alot, but unfortunately I can't go...feel free to tell them
 I am very interested though...
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:08
1:97)  Melissa:
 Sarah--I think you ought to seriously reprimand Margaret for her lack
 of commitment.  If she can't *make* time for this, then what can we
 think of her as a person in general?  In fact, I would like to invite
 every person on confer to take this opportunity to give Margaret
 a sincere dressing-down.(I simply love that expression, don' you?)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:12
1:98)  Dawn:
 What is this all about???
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:19
1:99)  Margaret:
 Melissa, are we going to have a confer-war?!!!!  I have some stories
 I'm sure EVERYONE, including Prof. L. would love to hear...
  
   "Where's mom's 'I'm alergic to mornings' mug? I have to scoop butter out
 of the gerbil cage"   (And that was the nice side of the scale...DEAR! :))
 Dawn, Ignore everything Melissa says, chances are it is worthless...
    Just kidding, ignore everything she says about me!!!! :)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:26
1:100)  John Lawler:
 Ladies, ladies...
 
 A little of this is amusing, a lot of it isn't.  Learn to use the "T"
 command for personal messages, please.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:08
1:101)  Tom:
 Margaret, do listen to Mellisa.  I can not attend the JSA meeting tonight.
 I have a career seminar I required to attend for my scholarship.  But
 the next JSA meeting is on FEB. 11th at 7:30 in the Pond Room.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:09
1:102)  Margaret:
 Tom, I will most definitely be there...but listen to Melissa about what?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:26
1:103)  Tom:
 Margaret, that was a typo.  I'm still getting used to this thing.  Even
 after a few weeks
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:41
1:104)  Margaret:
 oh.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:25
1:105)  Trinna:
 Wow. I finally made it.  I thought that this was the *introduction* item,
 though. I'm an RC Firstyear with no particular plans as of yet. 
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:41
1:106)  Anand:
 Trinna, you'll love the confer.  And I'm not sure but I think your
 in my 12-1 discussion session on Friday? I think you were asking me 
 if some people wanted to form a study group for this class, well that's
 fine with me.  I think I can gather up a few, maybe 1/2 dozen people.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:51
1:107)  Tom:
 Anand,I would be interested even though I'm in the
 11-12 discussion.  Let me now if anything thanspires with the
 study group thing.  Thanks!
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:52
1:108)  Trinna:
 No, Anand. It wasn't me. Maybe a Katrina? But anyway, I really could use a 
 study group, so I'm in. Let me know what's up. I'm in the 10-11 section,
 by the way.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:59
1:109)  Dawn:
 I'm in for a study group!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan31/94 23:14
1:110)  Vassoula:
 I'm with you Dawn!!!!!!  Alana and I are Linguistic idiots!
 We live in South Quad and we need someone to help us because
 we are going to fail this class.  We have been trying to 
 catch on and we just can't.  Someone please help us make it click.
 We're begging you on our hands and knees!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan31/94 23:37
1:111)  Chad:
   I hate  CAEN.  I doubt that anyone hates it as much as I do right now.
 I tried for two weeks to get the right information so that I could join
 this confer.  They kept changing the wrong password, sent me to NUBS about
 20 times.  Obnoxiousness.  Aargh.  I have spent about 2 hours already just
 scrolling through all the old messages.  How annoying.  I like the browse
 command though.  Sure does speed things up when there are SO many 
 superfluous responses.  Don't you guys have better things to do?
- - - - -
Feb01/94 08:55
1:112)  Margaret:
 Chad, you have my sympathies. I did the same thing.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 08:57
1:113)  John Lawler:
 That *is* a drawback with Confer.  Especially the first few weeks, while
 most folks are new to the conference, there's a lot of superfluity
 before they realize they're really in public and everybody's watching.
 
 It's interesting, but eventually it dies down.  We have a few social
 items and like that, and several active items where homework and
 stuff is being hashed out.
 
 One thing that new folks should be aware of is "Item Drift".  As the
 initial purpose of an item passes or becomes irrelevant or forgotten,
 new topics take over.  How far they go is a matter for peer pressure
 to determine.  The important thing to remember is that, although you
 may see the last few responses on one topic or in some tone, you
 *don't* have to follow suit, and indeed in some cases you shouldn't.
 This is pretty much the same kind of phenomenon as unconsciously
 changing your speech to match that of those around you.
 
 I don't want this to become a true social conference - like MEET:STUDENTS
 on MTS, for instance.  Bear in mind that *everybody* has to read what
 you say, and if it's fluff and they've gone to some trouble to read
 it, they can easily get annoyed.  It's not nice (nor wise) to annoy
 your classmates.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:29
1:114)  Stephanie:
 Im up for a study group too. I live in EQ.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 12:03
1:115)   Lisa:
 Whoever is coordinating this study group thang, I'm down.  I'm in the
 11:00 to 12:00 discussion.  Or you could just yell my name out in 
 lecture and I would probably respond, so that we can work this out.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 14:58
1:116)  Larry:
 I guess I'll toss my name in the study group hat.  I'm in the 10-11
 discussion taught by Lawler.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:03
1:117)  John Lawler:
 Study groups are good things, but they *will* need an organizer.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:07
1:118)  Lida:
 If the study group ever gets an organizer, I hope that he/she
 will include me in the list of members.
 It sounds like a really good idea.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:18
1:119)  Larry:
 Nominations (Don't even think of it)...
- - - - -
Feb01/94 16:10
1:120)  Kiran:
 I'm in for the study group, too. I live in South Quad.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 18:55
1:121)  Tara:
 Anand I'd like to be in the study group too. I live in Newberry
 and I kinda think we should nominate Larry for leader!  :)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:27
1:122)  Vassoula:
 Then Larry go for it!!!!!  Just let me know when.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:29
1:123)  Tara:
 I was kidding, I hope everyone knows that!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:12
1:124)  Lee:
 Study group may be cool.  I live behind S Q on Monroe St.  C'mon Larry
 go for it!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:25
1:125)  Mitchell:
 I live in South Quad as well (2415 Kelsey to be exact).  If anyone needs
 my help with linguistics or wants to meet someplace, I suppose my room
 can be used for this capacity.  
- - - - -
Feb01/94 22:07
1:126)  Amy:
 I added this class a week after classes started and I feel like I never
 caught up.  I have really had a hard time understanding the Assignments so
 far and I am definitely up for doing a study group.  I live in Stockwell.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:00
1:127)  Zachary:
 This study group seems like a great idea,  andI hope that I can be
 part of it.  Linguistics is a very tough subject, and I can use all
 the help I can find.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:28
1:128)  Laurie:
 how about an impromptu Study Group this Fri. at the Leaque Coffee shop at
 2:00? Lets's start a list. I'm Laurie.  If we get more than 5 let's
 split in into smaller groups there.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:33
1:129)  Larry:
 I'm there!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 12:04
1:130)  Tom:
 I'm there also.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 13:13
1:131)  Tara:
 I'll be there!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 13:25
1:132)  Lida:
 Me too.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:23
1:133)  Stephanie:
 Maybe. My little bro is coming in for siblings weekend.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 16:10
1:134)  Jessie:
 count me in.  (where's the league coffee shop? I'm guessing, somewhere
 in the league, but where?)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 16:24
1:135)  Margaret:
 I think it's downstairs.  right?  Anyway, I may be there as well...I feel
 like the whole lecture is going to be there.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:08
1:136)  Vassoula:
 Why Friday?  The quiz is Thursday.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:16
1:137)  Monica:
 Monica
 I would like to study with all of you also, but I do not know where you all
 are meeting? The league Coffee shop????????????????
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:21
1:138)  Mitul:
 i would also like to join a study group.  i live in Markley, so anyone
 who lives on the hill can respond.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:24
1:139)  Henry:
 I'd bet there are six coffee shops in AA with that name.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 18:18
1:140)  Amy:
 The league coffee shop closes at two guys...
- - - - -
Feb02/94 18:49
1:141)  Anand:
 Hi Mitul, I also live on the hill.  I live in Alice LLoyd. 
 If anyone else lives on the hill and wants to form a study group,
 get in touch.
 Here at Lloyd, we have dozens of rooms we can use to study.
 After the quiz, we can all meet at the back of the room, and maybe
 discuss something after that. 
 Thanks!!!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:03
1:142)  Kiran:
 For anyone that lives in or near South Quad, I am studying with a couple
 other people in the down under snack bar at 10:00 Wednesday night for the 
 quiz. If anyone wants to join us, come on down...
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:22
1:143)  Jin Ho:
 Is there anyone from this class who's staying in North Campus?  I live in
 Bursley ,so that kind of makes it hard to find study companions.  I'd be
 willing to get together with anyone up here.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 15:06
1:144)  Larry:
 Why don't we do this:  Everyone meet outside the Michigan League coffee
 shop at 2:00, wherever that may bebe.  Then we'll split up into smaller
 groups. 2PM FRIDAY Outside  LEAGUE COFFEE SHOP! 
- - - - -
Feb03/94 19:02
1:145)  Laurie:
 The League Coffee Shop is downstairs in The League, does it really close at
 2:2? Let's meet there, Outside The League Coffee Shop at 2 ane take it from
 there too bad it wasn't before the quiz but this stuff is not going to go
 away.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 14:35
1:146)  Larry:
 OK... it's 2:30pm, I thought everyone was meeting at the League.
 Study groups work better if you have more than one person :)
- - - - -
Feb04/94 14:45
1:147)  Laurie:
 yes Larry , should we add "group"to the glossary item?  I wasn't there but
 would still would still like to form a group. Tues.10-11?, wed.12-1? thoses
 are good times for me
- - - - -
Feb04/94 14:48
1:148)  Larry:
 Unfortunately, I can't do either of those, Laurie.  I just transmitted
 you a message.  Give me a call... and we'll set something up.  
- - - - -
Feb04/94 15:46
1:149)  John Lawler:
 I mentioned briefly in section today that we'll be having some work
 starting next week that can be done in groups.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 22:43
1:150)  Stephanie:
 If nobody has yet, I will organize the study group things. "t" me
 and tell me your name, phone, and the day and time you can study.
 I will post a list of who can study when later this week. If someone
 already took charge, then disregard this mesage completely
- - - - -
Feb05/94 10:23
1:151)  John Lawler:
 Feel free to start a item to manage it, Stephanie.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 03:17
1:152)  Jin Ho:
 Stephanie, wow! what a take charge kind of gal.  That's really an admirable
 quality in my book
   :)
 (oops)
 Here's my name, phone, and time list:
 Jin Ho  (763-1949)
 Monday: 11:30-3:00
         (evening) 6:00-?
 Tuesday:6:00-?
 Wednesday: 11:30-3:00
         (evening) 6:00-?
 Thursday: 6:00-?
 Friday:11:30-3:00
     (evening) 6:00-?
 Weekends: anytime, anywhere
- - - - -
Feb07/94 11:14
1:153)  Laurie:
 Thanks Stephanie
 Laurie
 663.7612
 one hour slots
 mon.10-2
 tues 10-11
 wed 10-1
 thur 10-11
 fri 12-2
 hope we can get organized
- - - - -
Feb07/94 11:15
1:154)  Tom:
 Tom Jastrzab
 Monday 11:00-5:00 and after 7:00
 Tuesday After 7:00(evening)
 wednesday 11:00-3:30 and after 7:00
 Thursday after 7:00 P.M.
 Friday after 12:00
 Saturday and Sunday give me a call!  phone #995-9083
- - - - -
Feb07/94 11:28
1:155)  Lisa:
 Stephanie - my schedule is real busy but this is when I'm available:
 monday after 11:00 (usually)
 wednesday after 6:00 
 friday between 2:00 and 4:00
 saturdays and sundays are always different but somewhat open
- - - - -
Feb07/94 13:12
1:156)  Larry:
 Stephanie, I am only taking 12 credits, so anytime's 
 probably OK for me, although I'm not too coherent before 1pm.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 16:05
1:157)  Margaret:
 Stephanie, I want to join as well, but don't worry about my schedule,
 just tell me when we are going to meet, and if I can  make it I will.
 #769-4920
 and it IS my number, don't let the message scare you off, people hang up
 a lot...
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:32
1:158)  Dale:
 Stephanie, I want to join the group too.  I usually can work around 
 an any schedule.  But Tuesdays and probably Thrud Thursdays
 are out for me.  Give me a call about when and where at 741-8577. Cool
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:56
1:159)  Sarah:
 Is there anybody organizing a study group in South Quad? 
 If there is, I'd like to join!
 Gimme a call at 764-6615 or drop by at 1314 Kelsey.
 Thanks!! :)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:59
1:160)  Dale:
 Sarah, maybe we could form one around that area.  I live on S.Division a
 block from Blimpy, so walking to SQ wouldn't be a problem.  Anyone else
 interested?
- - - - -
Feb12/94 21:25
1:161)  Anand:
 Sarah, We (Tom and me) meet in Mitchell's room which is right above
 your floor (or so I think) in SQ.  My number is 764-6953.
- - - - -
Feb13/94 01:39
1:162)  Jake:
 ...(Tom and I)...
- - - - -
Feb13/94 16:43
1:163)  Anand:
 Thanks Jake!!! I writing that in a hurry.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 00:43
1:164)  Mona:
 Hello everyone, my name is Mona and I'm a first year student who lives in
 Bursley and this is the first time I'm really saying anything, but this 
 whole thing is kinda cool.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 2     Jan03/94 13:24    13 lines   104 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=1
HELP!  HOW Do I ...?

    This is the HELP! item for Confer.  If you have any questions
 about how to use this software, just RESPOND below and ask them.
 You'll get a speedy reply.  By the way, if anybody knows the answer
 to anybody else's question, it's entirely in order (and is heavily
 encouraged) to answer it here.  This is a class where participation
 counts for a considerable amount, and this is one good way to participate.
 
    To aid you, I've set up a special command.  The most common way to
 get confused is to think of something you'd like to be able to do in
 Confer, but not know what the command is... essentially, you need to
 know HOW TO DO IT.  So, if you find yourself in that situation,
 just type "HOW" and you'll get to the response prompt for this item.
 Then you can ask your question.

  104 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:41
2:1)  Zachary:
 This is a very helpful command.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 17:26
2:2)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 John, the HOW command is neat, but why can't I do it at the Do Next?
 prompt?
 
 To all, if your BackSpace/Delete key doesn't work as expected and yuo are
 using VersaTerm, the handout is wrong. Do this:
 
    Choose KEYBOARD from the SETTINGS menu.
    Click in the circle next to DELETE and press Return.
  
 Then you won't have to press Ctrl and Backspace all the time, it will
 work normally. I think you may have to do that each time you sign on
 though.
 
- - - - -
Jan08/94 19:24
2:3)  Nicholas:
 You can also type in
 stty erase +(the backspace key)
 type it in at the confer% prompt, that should do it. :)
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:55
2:4)  Mitchell:
 Question: Is there any way for me to look at new replies to items without
 having to look at all of the replies.  Granted, this is not a problem this
 early in the year, but it will matter when responses really add up.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 23:51
2:5)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 YES! What are you using, ITEM #? That is NOT the way to go everyone.
 That's only if you want to see the whole item and all the responses
 every single time. What you want to use is the NEW command at the
 DN? prompt. Be sure and read about what it does in the handout I
 gave you at training. It's the next section or so past where you 
 learned to use ITEM #. It's very important.
  
 Take a look at the handout and let me know if you have more questions.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:51
2:6)  John Lawler:
 Jimi Lee, I don't know why you can't do it at Do Next?  I can.
 And I didn't set it up to be an organizer-only command.  Or at
 least I don't *think* I did.  I suppose I'll have to re-enter
 it to check. Lemme see.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:53
2:7)  John Lawler:
 Well, here's what CHANGE SOURCE COMMAND VERIFY HOW says:
   Command  Public      Translation
 --------- ------ --------------------
 HOW        (Y) = r 2 nor
  
 So, unless the parentheses mean something funny, it *should* be
 public.  Anybody else have problems with HOW?  If you have any,
 let me know.  We will have discovered a bug in Confer.  That's
 part of the reason we're here.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 15:15
2:8)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 hmmm. Well, I just tried it again and it worked! OF COURSE!  Maybe it
 was a typing problem. Thanks, John.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 15:00
2:9)  Dale:
 Thanks for the tip on changing the delete key.  I only wish I would have
 gotten to it sooner because my intro is chock full of mistakes.  Thanks Jimi.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 15:36
2:10)  John Lawler:
 You can change your intro with the command:
 
 
 (wait for it...)
 
 
 
 CHANGE INTRO
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:44
2:11)  Vassoula:
 Jimi, I just wanted to say that I like the way you spell
 your name.  It reminds me of Jimi Hendrix.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 23:06
2:12)  Alana:
 Hola everyone!  I'm Vassoula's roommate, you know, the one who was totally
 goofed up, but, I finally figured it out and am glad 'cause now I have
 to go and do some reading for my Classical Civilizations class. ByeBye!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 00:25
2:13)  Monica:
 Jan11/94 12:30 Monica
  Hi! I am writing my intro now because this is the first time I have tried to
 login.  I did not know when we were supposed to start.  I am taking this
 course because my counselor suggested it.  I am planning on going into
 elementary education and maybe someway this class will help me with it. I am
 taking it despite my mom who told me I would hate it. Bye
- - - - -
Jan12/94 14:15
2:14)  Dale:
 Hi, I'm writing because I have to change my intro later, but I have to write
 a little bit to keep the chatter going.  Is the paper for the swahili just a
 tidbit of our analyzation of the handout?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:36
2:15)  Stephanie:
 I dunno  but I I am having a hard time with it.
 Monica: This class WILL invariably help you with ANYTHING you plan on doing.
 Language is ever-present, and learning about it is ALWAYS a good thing.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:19
2:16)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [Thanks, Vassoula. My mom gets the credit. Telegram version: My dad was
 in the Korean war when I was born. His name is James. My mom wanted to
 name the baby after him in case he didn't come home (he did). I was a
 girl, so she made up a different spelling. I always tell people "like
 Hendrix" to get the spelling correct, but young people don't know who 
 that is anymore!]
  
 To keep on track of the item (Confer Help), TRY THE EDITOR; it's cool.
 To get in the editor, type EDIT at the prompt and you will be in a
 "full screen" mode (if you chose the pico editor when you registered).
 You can use the arrow keys to move around in the file. Commands are
 at the bottom of the screen. The ^ means the CONTROL (not the propellor)
 key. After you are done making your changes, press ^X to leave the
 editor. You'll get some cryptic message about saving answer y/n, type Y
 (and maybe a Return). I'm putting together a handout on this.
  
 If you don't get the pico editor for some reason, just type CHANGE EDITOR
 at the DN? prompt and enter PICO when you are prompted. You probably don't
 want the option to "call the editor automatically" because that means
 any time you type RESPOND (R), you'll go straight into the editor. Not
 bad if you want it that way.
  
 Are you looking at the commands on the last page of the handout?
  
 Try the QUERY command.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:46
2:17)  Sarah:
 I have a question! How do you print out certain item(S)
 or responses in an item? I can't highlight all the part I want
 without hitting the return key at "more?"  Help!!!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:55
2:18)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Hmmm. Well you could print it in stages with highlighting, but you can
 go past the more? prompts and highlight right over the top of them.
 Highlight a section, press Return at the more? then hold down the Shift
 key and click to connect the highlighting (just like in Word). You
 can repeat this as much as you want and then choose Print Selection from
 the File menu.
  
 A couple of warnings: 1) Don't click anywhere on the screen or you'll
 disconnect or loose your highlighting. 2) There is a "buffer" that holds
 the text that has scrolled off the screen and it has a limit before it
 starts cutting it off. Scroll back and see how much it is holding right
 now.
  
 Another way is to hit return past a few more? prompts and then scroll back
 and start the highlighting. A quick way to avoid dragging through every
 line and character is to highlight a line or two at the very beginning.
 Then scroll to the end and press Shift and highlight the last part. This
 "connects" the highlighting in between.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:04
2:19)  Sarah:
 I've figured out the 'scrolling backward' stuff for myself, it's a miracle!
 Thanx though!:)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 08:53
2:20)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Sarah, you get two gold stars for initiative. ;-)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 16:18
2:21)  Susan:
 This is my first day on Confer and already I am behind everyone else.  But
 all of your hints were helpful.  Thanks.  Now if only I could get hints
 on the rest of the stuff that we have to do.  I feel like I am the only
 person in this class who doesn't speak another language besides English.
 I'm feeling hopelessly inferior.  If there is any one else out there who
 is as clueless as me, write me and tell me I'm not alone.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 22:03
2:22)  Alana:
 Susan, Hi I;m just as lost as you (and so is my roommate who is also in the
 class).  We thought we had the Swahili down and ended up getting a ton wrong.
 So, you're not the only clueless one.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 23:39
2:23)  Mitchell:
 Susan, Alana, I sympathize with your problems; if there's anything I can do
 to help out and alleviate that clueless feeling, let me know.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 13:14
2:24)  Jake:
 And if there's anything I can do to make your stay with confer
 as confusing and miserable as possible, let me know :-)
  
 Haha. Only kidding. I'm a computer geek and would be glad to Convert
 anyone, that is, teach them...
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:18
2:25)  Stephanie:
 I feel pretty clueless nnow, but I have figured a few things out.
  
 This is my second semester with a confer class, and in the beginning, I
 was REALLY scared. But it gets easier as time goes on. Dont fret
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:28
2:26)  Joe:
 Jimi, what do you mean young people don't know who Jimi Hendrix is?
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:37
2:27)  Stephanie:
 Did she say that?????? Hurumph
- - - - -
Jan14/94 15:09
2:28)  Dawn:
 I set my # of lines to see on the screen while it waited at ten when
 I signed on (about a 1/2 hour ago), but that is entirely too few.  
 How do I change that?
- - - - -
Jan14/94 16:11
2:29)  John Lawler:
 Say "WAIT 22".  That should be about a screenful.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 23:45
2:30)  Jake:
 JG, SAM, et al., the big question is:
 Does anyone _care_ who Jimi Hendrix is?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 14:49
2:31)  Amy:
 Susan and all others that are as confused as I: Lets form a support
 group...just kidding. Actually, I'm having a hard time with exactly WHAT we
 are supposed to do with a sheet of paper that has 100 or so words on it. I
 got no instruction for what to do...so I just stumbled about. Anyone else
 feel like there is something they are missing?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 17:56
2:32)  Vassoula:
 Joe, I'm with you I think everyone knows who
 Jimi Hendrix is.  Oh ya Jake, I care who Jimi Hendrix
 is.  Is there something wrong with that?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 20:09
2:33)  Jake:
 No. Just asking. I personally don't like him, but as I say...
 That's just my opinion.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 13:32
2:34)  Larry:
 Amy, I think the idea is to (as concisely as possible) analyze the 
 language.  State the rules that the given words exhibit and also mention
 any inferences you made from the list.  It's almost like learning a 
 language backwards.  Also say how you were able to formulate these rules.
 I'm sure there is already an item on this later in the conference that will
 be more help, but I think this is what Lawler wants (in 2 pages or less).
 To all, I personally don't care who Jimi Hendrix is either... SORRY :(
- - - - -
Jan16/94 15:52
2:35)  Tara:
 Hi, is there anyway of checking who is on this confer when I sign 
 on??  Just curious. 
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:01
2:36)  Jake:
 Type "p *" at do next.
 Also: p recent; an * next to the uniqname indicates they're on.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:22
2:37)  Jill:
 Hi.  i'm jennifer.  i'm logging in with jill because my password doesn't seem
 to be working.  how do I get to  oops!  how do i get it to work?  also, when
 is the next confer conferendce?  someone help me or i'm gonna fail this
 class!
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:22
2:38)  Monica:
 Monica
 I have yet another question. How do you know what item you are on and when
 you are creating a new item? Jake do not tell me I am annoying like you told
 Jill we just do not understand.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:29
2:39)  Jake:
 If you type "e", your posting an item.
 Like I told Jill, items take money and time away from someone.
 To see everything you haven't yet, type "new"
 (the command "stop" will get you to do next)
 To skip to an item, type "i #"
 To see only new stuff on an item, type "i # new"
 to respnd to an item without reading it, type "i # not nor"
   and respond to it normally.
  
 If you are somewhere, and you don't know what to do, type "stop"
 until you get back to "do next"
  
 Hope this helps. Be glad you aren't on usenet. You really get flamed.
 Comming from someone who's had his fair share of flames. :-)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:30
2:40)  Larry:
 Monica, the number next to a person's name (2:38) is the item # and the 
 response #.  If you want to read the item, the easiest way I've found is
 to type 'item n' to read the nth item.  Anyone else have any other ideas?
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:34
2:41)  Jill:
 thanx for your help everyonwe
- - - - -
Jan18/94 19:50
2:42)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Larry has the best indicator of where you are in an item. Just look at the
 previous responses. If you are at the RFP prompt you can always see the
 last response made on that item by typing -1. Then use Larry's trick and
 (19:110) the number before the colon is the item number and the number
 after the colon is the response number on that item. Simple!
  
 If you need to see the text of the item again (which is what people are
 supposed to be responding to), type TEXT at the RFP prompt.
  
 Larry, if you type ITEM n all the time, you keep having to see all the
 old responses that you've already read! Use NEW since that keeps track
 of exactly where you left off in each item and only shows you the new
 responses. Cuts *way* down on time. ;-)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 20:00
2:43)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [oops. I nearly forgot to respond to the Hendrix comments. My apologies.
 *some* younger people have given me a blank stare when I said, "like
 Hendrix". Kind of like one time I was talking about music to someone and it
 went like this:
   me: blah blah blah Woody Guthrie
   other person: [blank stare] who's Woody Guthrie?
   me: Oh, Arlo Guthrie's dad.
   OP: [different blank stare] who's Arlo Guthrie?
   me: [getting concerned] Oh. You know "Alice's Restaurant" fame.
   OP: What's Alice's Restaurant?
   me: [recognizing a lost cause when I see it.] never mind.
 
  
- - - - -
Jan19/94 00:40
2:44)  Kevin:
 I'm a lost cause where Guthries are concerned, but at least I remember
 "Alice's Restaurant."
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:30
2:45)  Larry:
 "This land is your land...."
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:13
2:46)  Jake:
 The Psychedelic Furs had a song called "Alice's House," but I don't
 think there's a relationship.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:17
2:47)  Jennifer:
 It has nothing to do with the Psychedelic Furs -- its a Thanksgiving song. 
 Arlo also had a song about a pickle and a motorsickle, right?
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:27
2:48)  Stephanie:
 "This land is your land."
 Sang at the same time as Leadbelly and other greats. 
 Jake: no relationship whatsoever, I think.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:11
2:49)  Jake:
 Nope: Has a relationship: word "alice" is in both; in both, used as
 a possessive proper noun.
 <giggling all to hell) :-)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:06
2:50)  Melissa:
 I'll have everyone know that I am so in the dark with this confer thing,
 that I am figuring everything out by trial and error.  Fun fun fun. 
 I even had the computer help guy on the site stumped, with some of the
 mean things I've done to this computer.
 
 
- - - - -
Jan21/94 18:17
2:51)  Jin Ho:
 stopHelp! I'm very lost in this class! Am I the only one?quitend$endfile
- - - - -
Jan24/94 00:31
2:52)  Zachary:
 I happen to like Hendrix quite a bit as well, and it feels very ironic
 talking about him on a computer conference.  Maybe that's just me.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:41
2:53)  Gail:
 I have no idea what i'm doing on this thing, but I saw that someone was
 talking about the song Alice's Restaurant, and I love that song.  Just wanted
 to get that in here.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:27
2:54)  Vassoula:
 Zachary, I'm glad to see someone likes Hendd
 The computer's messed uip.  Sorry, but I think you know
 what I mean.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:30
2:55)  Margaret:
 Do you mean to say that there are some people that DON'T like Hendrix?
 I don't think that is possible...
- - - - -
Jan25/94 22:27
2:56)  Lucas:
 Okay, I'm still testing this confer thing out, but what exactly is
 a minimal pair?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 07:10
2:57)  John Lawler:
 This is the Confer question item, Lucas.  I'll discuss minimal
 pairs in Item 31.
 
 By the way, folks, see where Item drift leads?  You mislead
 newcomers as to what the purpose of the items are.
 
 This has been a paid political announcement.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 02:02
2:58)  Jin Ho:
 Aha! He confesses! We already knew you were part of some political
 universityafia It was just a matter of time! But that's not enough! Which
 head-honcho university official is paying you off, Prof. Lawler? And what
 party is he a member of? P Perhaps he's a communist! WE WANT NAMES! (just
 kiddin')
   :)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:21
2:59)  Stephanie:
 <giggle>
- - - - -
Jan27/94 11:04
2:60)  Lee:
 Help.  I'm on Versaterm at home, and I can't get the delete key to work
 right.  I've tried the "stty erase +" and I've tried changing keyboard
 under the settings menu.  Even when I do that I still need to hit control
 and delete to delete.  If I just hit delete, my computer gives me a carat
 followed by a question mark.  How do I fix this?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:23
2:61)  John Lawler:
 There are dozens of ways to fix it, depending on how
 permanently you want it fixed, and how much you want
 to learn about Unix.  There's a pretty linear relation
 between these two.
 
 For now (and every time you log on to the Conference),
   *DON'T*  type "stty erase +"
 That sets your plus key "+" to be the backspace key.
 
 If you're inside the conference, just type
     erase ^H
 If you haven't done "confer ling-210" yet, type
    stty erase ^H
 
 That's a "caret" character (uppercase of "6" on the Mac keyboard),
 followed by a capital H.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:43
2:62)  Margaret:
 I've been doing that every time I log on, but is there some way to set the
 backspace key (on an IBM) so it is automatic? or am I going to have to 
 deal with it?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:45
2:63)  John Lawler:
 You don't set it on your IBM; you set it on Unix.
 
 I think Jake gave some directions above.  Go "Jake" (with the
 quotes) at the Respond, Forget, or Pass: prompt, and see which
 responses he's given.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:46
2:64)  John Lawler:
 No, I guess not.  They must be somewhere, though.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:49
2:65)  Margaret:
 I remember them as well, though I'm not sure where they are either, and I'm
 not sure that I understood them.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:59
2:66)  John Lawler:
 I found them in another conference. Courtesy of Greg Ross, from one of my
 other classes, here's a permanent fix for your aching backspace.  Do the
 following *once*:
 
  1) After you log on at the "confer%" prompt, but
     before you type "confer ling-210", type:
             pico Public/.cshrc
     (the "P" has to be capital; case DOES matter here).
 
  2) Scroll down to the second to last line, just before the "endif".
 
  3) Insert this line:
             stty erase ^H
     (that's a caret - upper-case "6" - followed by a capital H)
 
  4) Press <ctrl>-X to exit.  Press "y" to save.
 
  5) At the "confer%" prompt, type:
             source Public/.cshrc
     (as before, the "P" has to be capital)
 
  6) Now type "confer ling-210" and be about your business.
     From now on, your backspace key should work on Confer.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:06
2:67)  Margaret:
 Thanks, I'm going to go try it....
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:16
2:68)  Margaret:
 Prof.L, I tried it, but I can't get past the pico Public/.cshrc. I'm not
 sure why...I'll try again, but I think I am fated to be stuck with
 manual backspace...what an awful fate...:|!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:05
2:69)  Zachary:
 Oh the trials and tribulations of living in an age of computers!  Don't 
 you just long for the good old days of Atari and Commodores.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:08
2:70)  Mitchell:
 Do I ever, Zachary.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:29
2:71)  Laurie:
 What does it mean that my responses will invoke the fromat function? sounds
 like a religious ritual!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 12:06
2:72)  John Lawler:
 It means that your paragraphs will get wrapped into screen-length
 lines, and that
 any short lines
 like these
 will get combined into longer ones.  This is automatic on MTS
 Confer, but not on ConferU.
 
 I'll enter the previous paragraph formatted, and you can see the
 difference.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 12:07
2:73)  John Lawler:
 It means that your paragraphs will get wrapped into screen-length lines, and
 that any short lines like these will get combined into longer ones.  This is
 automatic on MTS Confer, but not on ConferU.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 19:04
2:74)  Laurie:
 In general I like the MTS Confer cleaning up after me, but what if I do want
 to make short lists?
- - - - -
Feb03/94 21:14
2:75)  John Lawler:
 Just
  start
  every
  line with a
  blank (" ")
  like this.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 22:25
2:76)  Jake:
 And there's a way to switch the textwrap off, but I don't know what it is.
 As is abvious
 I
 leave
 mine switched
 \\off.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:22
2:77)  Nicholas:
 question for Prof L:
 What type of computer/program and font do you use to write up the problem
 sets? The reason I ask is because palphon is not as clean as what you give
 us, and I was wondering if we lowly students could access it (the font...)
 Thanks!
- - - - -
Feb09/94 23:26
2:78)  John Lawler:
 Gee, Palphon ought to be cleaner, on a laserwriter, at least.  I usually
 use Times 14 pt and LinguistNY 12 pt.  The last one is strictly a bitmap,
 but it downloads OK.  Palphon, on the other hand, is a true Type 1 laser
 font and should be very clean.  Of course, you have to mix it in with
 Palatino and not Times/New York.  Maybe you haven't installed the print
 driver in the system folder of the Mac you intend to print with.  That
 can cause troubles.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 18:28
2:79)  Nicholas:
 Is there a way to set up confer so that it show the previous 3 responses 
 before showin the new ones?  That'd be cool because sometimes it's hard 
 to remember what the first responses refer to, and if I have to scroll 
 through 60 responses I get kinda lazy...
 
- - - - -
Mar23/94 19:15
2:80)  Stephanie:
 yes, at the respond, forget, or pass prompt, type -3 if you want
 the last three responses.
- - - - -
Mar24/94 03:27
2:81)  Calvin:
 Help!  Every letter I that I type is doubled as you can see.  Does anyone
 have an idea of how to fix this?
- - - - -
Mar24/94 08:09
2:82)  John Lawler:
 But we can't see it, Calvin.  You have somehow managed to get
 your communication program set into what is called "Half Duplex"
 mode, where characters are echoed locally.  It's obsolete, since
 remote echo is the norm (and "Full Duplex" accomodates it).
 
 It'll probably disappear the next time you log on.
- - - - -
Mar24/94 17:17
2:83)  Calvin:
 it did
- - - - -
Mar24/94 18:29
2:84)  Karen :
 John, why would that happen? --Karen
- - - - -
Mar24/94 23:00
2:85)  John Lawler:
 Any number of possible causes, depending on what machine Calvin was
 using, what software, who used it last, what key he might have inadvertently
 pushed, etc.
- - - - -
Mar25/94 19:25
2:86)  Jake:
 If you are using one of the Macs in the centers, using versaterm,
 it happens because the "Lochal Echo" is toggled on in the settings
 menu.
  Simply go to the settings menu, highlight "Local echo" (it should have
 a checkmark by it) and click-off. That'll retoggle it for you.
 (Click-off = let go of the mouse button).
- - - - -
Mar28/94 16:38
2:87)  Karen :
 Thanks, Jake
- - - - -
Mar28/94 19:41
2:88)  Lee:
 I'll pose a question I had earlier in the term and never got figured out.
 When I sign on to um at the "Which host?" prompt, I can't delete unless
 I hit control + delete.  I would like to fix this permanently.  Can anyone
 give me help. (I know how to do it within um-confer, but can't get the 
 stty erase >delete< command to work anywhere within um)
- - - - -
Mar28/94 20:41
2:89)  Jake:
 Right, LB. stty only works on a unix machine (like this one). If your
 using a site, there is not way to fix that problem permenantly --
 to fix it temporarily, go to settings menu, select keyboard. Make sure 
 the delete key is "delete".
 
 If you are using your own modem, there should be a similar function. Look 
 for it. :-)
- - - - -
Mar29/94 18:27
2:90)  Nicholas:
 how can I view my old messages? when I type message it says no new 
 messages but I can seem to find a way to see old messages...
- - - - -
Mar29/94 19:55
2:91)  John Lawler:
 Well, you can always find out about Confer commands by just putting
 a question mark after the one you want to find out about:
  
   MESSAGE ?
 
 That'll give you a tutorial on them.  But to answer your question, you
 can say MESS REV and get a list of them (in revers order), then pick
 the one you want (MESS 17) to see.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 18:04
2:92)  Nicholas:
 thank you! :)
 
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:18
2:93)  Jill:
 I have a question! Is there any way that you can get a listing of what was
 discussed in each item.  It is really annoying if you want to respond to
 something that you know was previously discussed but do not know on what item
 it was??
- - - - -
Apr08/94 23:53
2:94)  Kevin:
 There is a way.  But I don't remember what it is.
  
 I'm pretty sure that you at least need to remember something that was said,
 or a particular word to look for.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 11:10
2:95)  John Lawler:
 There is sometimes an index for conferences.  But it has to be updated
 by hand, which is usually labor-intensive.  I don't use it. 
 
 You *can* use the "find" command to find any string you want to look for.
 To see how it works, go FIND ?  (i.e, put a question mark after it) at
 DO NEXT?  You'll get a tutorial.  Incidentally, the question mark
 works for all commands.  Poke around a little and you can find out a
 lot.
 
 To see what the items are, I recommend the following command:
 D ALL HEAD
 at the DO NEXT? prompt.  It will give you a list of items, one to a
 line, with number and item title.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 22:55
2:96)  Mitchell:
 Two questions:
    1) I've noticed that it is possible on Confer to somehow leave
       a blank line.  But for me, whenever I press return on a blank
       line, I am asked "Respond, Forget, or Pass".  How can I leave
       a blank line?
     2) whose quotes is it that we see when we logout?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 23:52
2:97)  Margaret:
 Possibly there is an easier way, but when I want to leave a blank line,
  
 I press the space bar before I hit enter.  It works...
- - - - -
Apr18/94 00:59
2:98)  Kevin:
 To be honest, Margaret, I think it's the only way.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:34
2:99)  Jake:
 That, or use the pico editor, though it's a bit late to learn how :-)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:40
2:100)  Kevin:
 D'oh!
- - - - -
Apr18/94 07:40
2:101)  John Lawler:
 Or use any other editor.  I use ex, which is a unix standard line editor
 that'll do *anything* I can remember the commands for.  They're easier
 than Skagit.
 
 Other than using an editor, Kevin's right.  By the way, if you're
 willing to use a line editor, you can arrange that you *always*
 use it and never have to deal with the Confer input at all.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 12:07
2:102)  Mitchell:
 Thanx.  Now, whose quotes are they that we see when we leave confer?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 14:05
2:103)  John Lawler:
 Oh, that's a paragraph from the book _Language_ by Edward Sapir,
 circa 1920.  Highly recommended.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 03:09
2:104)  Jake:
 Darn. I'll have to logout of here normally sometime.
 Since I telnet in fron another UNIX machine, I usually just terminate
 the connection. (Not really as sloppy as it seems: I can clean up from my 
 workspace)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 3     Jan05/94 20:27   118 lines    44 responses
John Lawler                        
Confer Guidelines

  Computer Conferencing Guidelines
  December 1993
  -------------------------------------------------
  
  CONFERENCING GROUND RULES
  
     Along with the opportunity to build a special type of
     community, computer conferences pose unique problems related
     to standards of behavior. Conferences require special efforts
     to help them thrive. Because electronic communication lacks
     the benefits of body language and facial expression, it's
     easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood. The guidelines
     suggested here discuss what participants can do to make the
     conference fun and useful for current and future members. If
     you have any suggestions or ideas to improve these
     guidelines, please enter a response to this item.
  
  BUILDING COMMUNITY
 
     A computer conference brings together participants from many
     diverse backgrounds and experiences. A conference is a place
     where all opinions should be treated with respect. Making a
     conference a place where people feel comfortable sharing and
     discussing ideas takes a special effort on the part of all
     participants.
  
  ETIQUETTE
 
     We hope this conference can be friendly and informal, yet
     also provide ample room for serious discussion. Therefore:
  
     - Don't be too concerned with spelling and grammar--
       yours or anyone else's. Do be sure that your meaning
       is clear.
  
     - Written communication can be more prone to
       misinterpretation than verbal communication because of
       the lack of cues and signals that we have come to rely
       on to understand a person's meaning. So be careful how
       you use sarcasm and irony; they're particularly
       difficult to convey electronically! Many participants
       use "funny faces" to indicate tone, such as:
       :-)  or  ;-)
  
       (Tip your head to the left. The first is just a grin,
        the second a wink.)
  
     - If you have a new idea, start a new item! Try to keep
       existing discussions on track. New items produce more
       good discussion.
  
  U-M PROPER USE POLICY
 
     Although direct harassment of others is not common in most
     conferences, it can happen. Please be aware of the University of
     Michigan and ITD's policy governing use of computing resources.
     Enter VIEW /confer/conditionsofuse at the DO NEXT?  prompt to see
     ITD's guidelines.  Enter VIEW /confer/properusepolicy at the DO
     NEXT? prompt to see U-M's policy.  If you are the target of
     harassment or discrimination, please contact one of the organizers
     or ITD User Advocate via e-mail (itd.user.advocate@umich.edu)
     immediately.
 
  PSEUDONYMS
 
     Register as a participant using your real name. In some
     conferences participants may want to use a pseudonym for an
     item or response to protect their privacy. However, in some
     course conferences instructors may require that you do not
     make pseudonymous responses. Please honor their request.
  
     Any name or phrase makes an appropriate pseudonym EXCEPT the
     name of a real person. Please respect the name chosen for a
     pseudo, and refrain from making an entry with another
     person's chosen "nom de plume."
  
  OPINIONS, ARGUMENTS, AND DISAGREEMENTS
 
     A conference is a great place to express ideas and opinions,
     and to debate different points of view. Discussions are much
     more interesting if they focus on issues and not people, use
     information to develop arguments, and don't get so heated that
     responses might be interpreted as personal attacks. Reviewing
     a response before entering it can help avoid unintentional
     offensiveness, especially in a controversial item.
  
     When you are reading other people's entries, it can
     be easy to misinterpret a response and take it as a personal
     attack, especially without the visual cues that we have come
     to rely on in face-to-face conversation. The old rule, "count
     to ten" before you take offense is wise advice in electronic
     communication. Sometimes it's useful to wait and see how
     another participant reacts to a situation before you respond.
  
     If you feel you are the target of an attack, try to avoid
     escalating it in the conference. Instead, try to clarify or
     diffuse the situation in a message with the person, or
     contact the organizer.
  
  MAKING ENTRIES
 
     Make the main point, question or issue of your item clear. If
     you are entering a long item, it helps to include "View
     Remaining Text" options every 20 lines (place two equal signs
     (==) in the first two positions of a line). Be as succinct as
     possible. Use descriptive headers for your items.
  
  PRINTING OUT CONFERENCE MATERIAL
 
     Participants are generally welcome to print out conference
     material for their own use. We ask that printed material not
     be given to non-participants, unless permission has been
     sought of and granted by the authors of the item(s) and
     response(s) involved. You may want to start an item to
     discuss this issue in your conference.
  
  Happy Conferencing!
 

   44 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:24
3:1)  Jake:
 Like anyone's gonna respond to this item :-P
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:51
3:2)  Nicholas:
 Sure, I'll respond... This item was great fun reading! :)
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:08
3:3)  Tara:
 Did you know if you type 'a' at the prompt
  you can read the whole thing again!
- - - - -
Jan07/94 17:27
3:4)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 How bizarre, Tara. You're right! I know that TEXT works, but not "a".
 How in the world did you figure that out?!
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:55
3:5)  John Lawler:
 "a" only works the first time you see the item.  It means "again"
 and it shows you what you just saw.  Next time, you'll see responses
 (if you're using the NEW command) and "a" will just show them to
 you again.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 16:39
3:6)  Sarah:
 I hope there wasn't anything I really had to know in this item 'cause
 I just skipped through!:)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:22
3:7)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Well, it's not a wildly thrilling read, but there are some serious policy
 and guidelines that we all agree to abide by just by using the system. 
 Everyone should know what those are. You can see the text of the item
 again by typing TEXT at the RFP prompt.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:26
3:8)  Sarah:
 you're right, Jimi! I went back and read the item over.  I'm glad I did so
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:44
3:9)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Great! Have fun!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:57
3:10)  Vassoula:
 Jimi, Ithink that's a cool name for a girl.   However,
 Imust admit that you had me fooled.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:41
3:11)  John Lawler:
 She fools everybody online, and has for a decade or so.  And loves it.
 Someday she may tell you about the Boxer Shorts Item :-)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 22:38
3:12)  Tara:
 Jimi???
- - - - -
Jan13/94 08:57
3:13)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 John! <wild screams of laughter> I think that item still exists online
 somewhere. It became famous somehow. I was actually crossing the diag
 one year during that festifall thing and someone handed me a copy of
 my own item as a good example to start conferencing! I'll look around.
- - - - -
Jan15/94 14:55
3:14)  Amy:
 Ok....thanks for all the smiley faces! but, I have more!!!! hee hee...yes,
 I admit it..I'm a terribly big computer geek ;) =') 8) :P etc...I love
 those things. Anyway, I'll shut up now
- - - - -
Jan16/94 13:36
3:15)  Larry:
 I actually saw an article in the Washington Post over the summer that 
 talked about the emergence of "emoticons" (that's the name for the smiley
 faces, etc.).  In the article, it gave a few new ones I had never even 
 thought of, along with ones for a few of the US Presidents.
   =|:-)*      (Abe Lincoln)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 15:46
3:16)  Mitchell:
 Here's one, Larry. &:-)     (Elvis Presley)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:26
3:17)  Monica:
 Monica
 What are these smiley faces you are all talking about? how do you work them?
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:31
3:18)  Jake:
 smileys are facial expressions, used to indicate things when the text can't.
 Examples are: happy :-)
                sad  :-(
              teasing ;)
              happy man with beard :-)=
              sticking tongue out  :-P
 etc.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:32
3:19)  Larry:
 Monica, just use a combination of the symbols on the keyboard ;-)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 17:00
3:20)  Jake:
 Also, if you get really behind, and don't want to read anything new
 type "mark all" and all new responses (and items, but not messages)
 will be marked as read.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 17:54
3:21)  Stephanie:
 I have a two page list of smileys, and if anyone wants one, they can t
 me, and I can get another copy.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 19:35
3:22)  Amy:
 I want a copy!!!! Please? 
- - - - -
Jan16/94 21:14
3:23)  Mitchell:
 I'd like a copy as well, please, Stephanie.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 22:45
3:24)  Jake:
 SAM, if you use a the pine mail-server (rodan), you might want
 to type that up and send it to people via the 'net.
 Just a suggestion.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 22:33
3:25)  Alana:
 hey Larry, that Abe Lincoln thing was really cool!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:31
3:26)  Larry:
 Thanks! :-)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:23
3:27)  Stephanie:
 Oh yeah, Jake, as if I ever got my mail switched. That would take
 some computer knowhow, of whjich I have none. I saw a smiley book
 at Borders too.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 19:52
3:28)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [I wouldn't recommend that you use MARK ALL in a course conference.
 You may miss something very important, like an assignment, that your
 professor has entered! Not a good idea. You might also miss a million
 dollar offer or something equally important.]
- - - - -
Jan19/94 00:41
3:29)  Kevin:
 Or an Omigod, there's a typo.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:17
3:30)  Margaret:
 I want a copy of the smiley faces...and all be thankful that I just figured
 out how to turn off my call waiting, or I would never use my modem again.
 It hangs up everytime someone calls...how annoying!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:19
3:31)  Melissa:
 No, Margie *you're* just annoying!:).  See I *did* one!  Hey, anyone.  Why am
 i limited to 77 characters? The computer keeps beeping!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:51
3:32)  Jake:
 Just like a typewriter (arg): You have to push return at the end of
 every line - and you have to guess where the end of line is!
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:40
3:33)  Margaret:
 Gee Meisha, don't you know ANYTHING?!!!!! :]
- - - - -
Jan24/94 00:34
3:34)  Zachary:
 This computer limiting your characters per line is very annoying
 and I am not in the mood to count letters, so I'll just guess.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:20
3:35)  Kevin:
 Do just guess.  It's the easiest way.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 06:55
3:36)  John Lawler:
 It doesn't limit your characters; it just doesn't wrap the line for you.
 Big deal.  When the cursor gets to the end of the line, hit RETURN.
 Pretend it's a typewriter (remember typewriters?)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 13:13
3:37)  Scott]:
 I have just figured this system out, sort of.  Are intros viewed through
 participant list?  If so, mine is there.  All who're lost in this class 
 already-let's start our own conference or meeting, maybe under pseudos,
 no question is a stupid question, but some are so elementary they may be
 an embarassment.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 14:16
3:38)  Dale:
 Be creative.  Make your lines all different lengths so that you
 can create some kind of new type of modern art.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:28
3:39)  Vassoula:
 Scott, I just wanted to let you know that I too r
 transferred from engineering to Lsa and I'mn much
 happier.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:32
3:40)  Margaret:
 Scott and Vassoula, I think we should petition for the engineering school to
 be shut down (I just transfered as well...).
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:15
3:41)  Vassoula:
 Margaret-I think we are going to get along well!
- - - - -
Feb09/94 18:24
3:42)  Jake:
 Hey! Why don't ya'll show up on a finger?! Only us telnetters show
 up. That's not _fair_!
- - - - -
Feb10/94 11:31
3:43)  Jennifer:
 what are you talking about?
- - - - -
Feb14/94 17:24
3:44)  Zachary:
 I agree with Heather, what does that gibberish mean?


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 4     Jan05/94 20:29     4 lines   169 responses; Summary present
John Lawler                        
Heard any good ones lately?

Item 4     Jan05/94 20:29     4 lines   169 responses; Summary present
John Lawler                        
Heard any good ones lately?

     This is an item where we can share words or phrases or odd grammatical
 things we've found.  The point of this course is to develop a close attention
 to language, and when you attend to anything closely, you find interesting
 things.  So let's share them.

  169 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:07
4:1)  Mitchell:
 Salutations.  I am an LSA sophomore from Grand Rapids, MI.  I will probably
 major in anthropology and minor in computer science.  I am a tremendous fan
 of trivia, having participated in Guts (a national trivia contest on
 Prodigy), tried out for the Jeopardy college championship, America OnLine
 trivia forums, and College Bowl. Regarding Guts, I have placed among the top
 seven nationwide four times in the\ last 3 months.  I enjoy reading books. 
 Dziekuje.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:20
4:2)  Mitchell:
 I typed in my old biography by accident at this prompt.  At least now
 Jake knows that I'm on. SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan07/94 21:39
4:3)  Jake:
 Yes. Now I know you're on, Mitchell. Heh heh heh.
 And I'll never let you live it down :-)
- - - - -
Jan08/94 02:11
4:4)  Mitchell:
 Here's something that I found in the Book of LIsts #3: the 7 dumbest sayings
 in the English language (according to Sue Campbell of Peeskill, NY):
 1.  It's as cold as hell.
 2.  Sleep tight.
 3.  Head over heels in love.
 4.  Working like a dog.
 5.  Drunk as a skunk.
 6.  Out of  your mind.
 7.  Paying through the nose.
 To this list, I add #8: "Listen up."  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 10:49
4:5)  John P:
 uh-oh... i think i'll be here a lot...  my responses
 read like a bad-grammar textbook.  :)
  
 anyone know the word 'tree lawn?'  i think it might be
 just an ohio thing... we call the section of your front
 yard between the sidewalk and the street the tree lawn.
 but here in michigan, no one knows what i'm talking about!
  
 jp2
- - - - -
Jan08/94 14:30
4:6)  Onuka:
 Hey John, no one in Missouri knows either.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 16:17
4:7)  Mitchell:
 John, the American Heritage Dictionary doesn't give a listing for "tree
 lawn"  I've lived in Michigan all my life and I've never heard that term.
 But now that I know it, I very well may start using it.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 16:52
4:8)  John P:
 well, szcz, it's in _webster's new world_, but so is a lot of other
 crazy stuff.  :)   jp2
- - - - -
Jan08/94 18:34
4:9)  Mitchell:
 Thanx John.  Nevertheless, I think the AHD is the best dictionary on the
 market.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:45
4:10)  Larry:
 'Tree lawn' may have made it to certain dictionaries, but it hasn't
 crossed the border into Maryland either.  I just call it "that area
 between the sidewalk and the street".  Let's add "shoot the breeze" to
 the list of weird phrases.  Mitchell vs John-- battle of the dictionaries?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:49
4:11)  Mitchell:
 Battle of the Dictionaries: I like that!  Let me just say that regardless
 any differences among dictionaries that we may cite, I think that the AHD
 is the best because it is everything a dictionary should be: definitions
 FOLLOWED by etymologies (this matters because I use a dictionary to find
 definitions more often than to learn etymologies), mixed with usage notes,
 synonym lists, and in-depth charts and word histories.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 17:22
4:12)  Stephanie:
 Does anyone out there say "Same" when they mean "Ditto". I think it is mainly
 a CA thing. I.E. "My parents went to UM."  "Same."
- - - - -
Jan09/94 18:08
4:13)  Jake:
 Doe anyone say "ditto" (?) when they mean "same"?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:41
4:14)  Mitchell:
 I say ditto.  My father said same.  Go figure.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 20:15
4:15)  Larry:
 I'm have a flashback from the movie "Ghost".  I say it sometimes too!
 (Mitchell, is it in the dictionary?... just curious) :)
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:24
4:16)  Stephanie:
 I never say "ditto", unless I am talking about the copy kind.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:34
4:17)  Better late than Kevin:
 Something strange similar to tree lawn.  A friend of mine refers to pizza
 crusts as "pizza bones." Does *anyone* else do this?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 22:38
4:18)  Tara:
 I'm afraid not, Kevin!
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:32
4:19)  Larry:
 Never heard of that one either.  It took me 18 years just to figure 
 out "pie" could be slang for pizza.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:03
4:20)  John Lawler:
 Pizza bones is pretty obviously special; your friend is having fun
 with his/her language.  So should we all.
 
 Tree lawn is the sort of phrase that originates locally and often
 doesn't make it elsewhere.  It might do well in Ann Arbor (we have a
 City Forester here), but I've never heard it either.
 
 I've heard both "ditto" and "same".  They're likely not geographical
 variants, but (as Mitchell seems to suggest) generational.
 
 As to dictionaries, opinions vary as to abridged versions.  I like
 the AHD because it gives Indo-European roots, but I don't care where
 in the entry they put the etymology (I mostly look words up for
 etymologies).  But, make no mistake.  The best, biggest, finest,
 most scholarly, most complete, most useful, most awe-inspiring
 dictionary of any language in the world, ever, is the Oxford
 English Dictionay.  By far.  We're talking orders of magnitude
 here.  And you can get a copy of your own for about $25 if you
 join the Book-of-the-Month Club with the right ad.  If you see
 it, do it.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 13:41
4:21)  Mitchell:
 Prof. Lawler, isn't the OED on computer disk or CD-ROM?  Do you have any
 information on obtaining such software?  I ask because I'd rather have the
 OED in my computer hard drive, rather than have so many books.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:02
4:22)  John Lawler:
 Well, so would I.  If you're running X and have a good network
 connection, you can get an account on the library IBM and have
 access to the real thing.  I haven't seen the CD-ROM of the second
 edition, but the first edition was *awful*.  Terrible, unusable
 user interface.  I hope they got it right this time.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 19:16
4:23)  John P:
 sorry... i didn't mean to challenge the almighty authority of ahd.  i
 just noticed that it was in my dictionary.  :)  i can't really
 claim lexicographical authority.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 21:57
4:24)  Stephanie:
 AHHHHH COMPUTER TALK AGAIN!!!! (Just Kidding, LWIC, I wont complian this
 term)
- - - - -
Jan11/94 01:40
4:25)  Larry:
 I'm with you Stephanie... this computer talk drives me nuts!
 What is LWIC???
- - - - -
Jan11/94 18:22
4:26)  Jake:
 Unix, os/2, Versaterm, FTP, FSP, bandwidth, cycles per second, internet,
 usenet, telnet, RAM, ROM, VGA, soundboards, electronic signatures, etc,
 etc...
- - - - -
Jan11/94 18:51
4:27)  Stephanie:
 AWWWW Shut up, Jake :) LWIC is Lawler. (don't ask the etymology of that,
 please. Hmmmmm I wonder if I spelled that correctly. Well, y'all know what I
 mean anyway.I say that whoever talks in Computer lingo has to explain what it
 is, that way those of us who are less knowledgeable wont feel so stupid.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 19:43
4:28)  John Lawler:
 Fair enough.
 
 Jake?
- - - - -
Jan11/94 21:24
4:29)  Mitchell:
 I pity Jake.  Look on the bright side: the final's due April 18th.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:35
4:30)  Jake:
 I pity me too, though I don't know why. I have to live with me, however...
  
 Heh, I had a funny thought. re'ing someone's comment on i 1 to
 translate all posts in foreign languages, then I guess we can consider
 computerese a foreign langauge.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:54
4:31)  Vassoula:
 Is it just me or does it seem that the conference never
 ends?  I'll never catch up.  I'll be sitting here forever.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 23:10
4:32)  Alana:
 Well, I'm still here.  I haven't made it to my Classic Civ. yet, but this
 is a tad more interesting at this time of night since reading puts me to
 sleep.  It does seem though that this thing is neverending.....
- - - - -
Jan12/94 02:22
4:33)  Matt:
 I think that I will respont to this item to make the list even longer.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 08:00
4:34)  John Lawler:
 Those who get on later, have more to catch up with.  But after the
 first time you won't see these unless you specifically request them.
 
 Don't despair.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 14:18
4:35)  Dale:
 Going through the confer items takes forever!  I'm responding to this one
 because tomorrow night, Michigan is going to win with that new guy 
 from Wake Forest!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 16:39
4:36)  Tara:
 Hi, I know I just missed the HOW item, but I have a question.  At the 
 first do Next I typed in NEW. Am I now stuck seeing everything new in the
 order of the items, or is there some way I can skip from say this item
 to item fifteen without reading everyting in between yet???  HELP! Thanks!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 16:53
4:37)  Jake:
 Yes. Type I (the letter eye) plus item #, like: i 15
 and that will show you all of item 15. Typing i 15 new
 will show you only what's new on item 15.
 Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:06
4:38)  Sarah:
 Thanx Jake for saving me from the agony of going through every single
 response in an item!:)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:38
4:39)  Stephanie:
 There is also a way to see a list of the items. A knowledgeable person told
 me: desc all   (I think that is it. If not, I am sorry.)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:42
4:40)  Jake:
 or just type "d all". Does the same thing.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:47
4:41)  Stephanie:
 Thanks
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:53
4:42)  Lee:
 I guess this is just a regional different in slang, but how about the whole
 soda/Coke/pop differences in language.  
 Why do different regions call it different things.  I'm from Maryland, where
 soda is the only one you'll ever hear, and after three years in Ann Arbor, 
 I'm finally getting used to hearing pop (although I still won't say it).
 Any thoughts?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 18:57
4:43)  Larry:
 Where in Maryland... I'm from Bethesda (and it's soda)!  It always
 will be soda!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:42
4:44)  John Lawler:
 That is regional. And then there's Kansas, where I went to college,
 where you ask for "soda pop".
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:34
4:45)  Mitchell:
 Thinking about the soda/pop issue, we in Grand Rapids MI essentially
 danced around the issue.  We would pretty much refer to that bubbly
 concoction by whatever brand name under which it happens to be.  E.g., Coke
 Pepsi, 7UP, but, now that I ponder the issue further, little kids would call
 the swill "pop" (probably because it's only one syllable long)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 01:08
4:46)  Ghislaine:
 I agree with Larry....SODA IS SODA!!!!!!Not POP!!! When one thinks of pop
 he thinks of lolipop or candy not SODA. I'm from Coral Gables, Florida
 and the expression pop had never crossed me before September. It is extremely
 funny!!
- - - - -
Jan13/94 01:13
4:47)  Henry:
 Ghislaine, soda is not soda in Michigan.  Trust me.  But no one
 outside of this university really cares what you call it, so call
 it soda and chill out.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 08:59
4:48)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Michigander here. We say POP. When I hear soda, I think of soda water.
 Like gin and tonic, whiskey and soda (which does not mean coke).
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:18
4:49)  John Lawler:
 I was on a trip once with some guys from the East when I was in college
 (which was before your parents met each other in most of your cases) and
 we'd been kidding about pop/soda/tonic/etc.  We stopped for lunch in
 a town in rural Kansas and I decided to ask for a soda instead of pop.
 Needless to say, it had ice cream in it.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 14:50
4:50)  Larry:
 Dead serious... if you came to my house 5 years ago (before I came here to
 UM) and asked for a 'pop', I'd either hit you in the head or bring out my
 father.  That's a 'pop' in Maryland!  As weird as saying 'soda' sounds to the
 Michiganders on this conference, 'pop' sounds even weirder to me. 'Soft
 drink' 'Carbonated beverage' They both work too.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 16:52
4:51)  Jake:
 Pop goes in Ohio. Soda definatly sounds like something you put in gin.
 (Which reminds me, there's a Harlan Ellison Story called Djinn - no ice.)
 (The above for no particluar reason whatsoever)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 21:13
4:52)  Leonora Sanchez:
 I went to schoolin Washington state, where they also called soda "pop".
 Someone once asked me, "Well if you call pop "soda", what do you call
 baking soda?  And I have my own suspicions about people in Kansas--in 
 St. Louis we call it "soda", but in Kansas City they call it "pop".  They
 also pronounce Missouri as "Missoura". :-)   But there are other 
 variations too.  I know someone from California who swears she says "soft
 drink", and my dad, from the southwest, says that when he was growing
 up, the word they used was "coke".  IN other words: 
 "What do you want to drink?"   "Coke."
 "What kind?"                   "7-up."
- - - - -
Jan13/94 22:16
4:53)  Vassoula:
 Jimi, I want to know about the boxer shorts item.
 Please tell me about it.  Also, I think that
 omeone wants to call it soda; they can.  If they
 want to call it pop, then that's fine too.  People
 grow up learning that certain things are called this.
 For example, I might call Keds tennis shoes while someone
 from a different city might call them sneakers.  Even people in the
 same city  can call things differnt names.  I have friends
 at home that call spinning 360 degrees on ice in your car
 a pissie, while another friend called it a doughnut.
 I'm sorry this is so long, but I hope it at least makes sense.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 13:16
4:54)  Jake:
 Heh, let's hear it for equal rights!!!
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:14
4:55)  Larry:
 Huh?????
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:23
4:56)  Stephanie:
 In CA (just south of San Francisco), we say soda, but ever since I have been
 here, I have been calling it pop, just because it is easier, and more people
 understand. But it is definitely a regional thing. At home, I tend to say
 "Coke" also, as someone mentioned above. Of course, root beer is labeled as
 Coke.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 18:37
4:57)  Lee:
 So far, I've found that in the East Coast you hear primarily "soda" the
 midwest you hear "pop" the South has "Coke" for anything (like Lenora
 described before) Florida doesn't really follow the rule of thumb for the
 south--probably because so many Floridians are transplants from elsewhere.  I
 really don't have any rule of thumb about the West Coast.  Does anybody know
 how they do it?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 15:06
4:58)  Amy:
 OK...for the 900th time of discussing it...I don't care what people call 
 their soda pop beverage carbonized thirt-quencher. I'm from Grand Rapids too
 and have never heard such discussion about one single item of concern. 
 As for the stupid phrases thingee: Ever been to Hell, Michigan? I'll bet it
 has frozen over several times during this winter alone! ;) No joke!
- - - - -
Jan15/94 18:28
4:59)  Mitchell:
 Amy, what high school did you go to?  I went to West Catholic.
- - - - -
Jan15/94 20:05
4:60)  Rob:
 I have been to Hell, Michigan also.  So you can say that I've been to Hell
 and back.  Also I got a sunburn there. :)
- - - - -
Jan15/94 23:08
4:61)  Amy:
 Holy cow Mitchell...take just one guess where I went...where would 
 be the funniest place for me to have come from? Yes, I'm from Catholic
 Central. Pretty ironic eh? ;)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 13:38
4:62)  Larry:
 SODA
- - - - -
Jan17/94 20:06
4:63)  Kevin:
 In Oregon it was "pop." In Hawaii (at least, where I was) it was "soda." One
 day I decided to look it up [which has no reference to what people call it,
 instead it's what it is].  My dictionary (Webster's 9th New Collegiate c.
 1987) says soda is "a sweet drink consisting of soda water, flavoring, and
 often ice cream" (it's also "the faro card that shows faceup in the dealing
 box before play begins," but that's beside the point).  It defines "pop" as
 "a flavored carbonated beverage."  Of course, people don't talk like the
 dictionary.  I'll admit that I've never heard "Coke" used as a generic term
 for anything other than cola.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:32
4:64)  Larry:
 Soda!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:13
4:65)  Amy:
 ACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could we try and find another suject for this..i think
 it may have been exhaused! (er, exhausted that is) Thanks!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:58
4:66)  Jake:
 I thought this _was_ the "soda.pop" item?
 You mean it isn't?
 Has anyone been keeping a tally?
 Who's winning?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 18:01
4:67)  Nicholas:
 Please, please, please lets move on, surely there are some other good ones
 out there... This soda/pop/coke/whatever is starting to lose its fizz...
 :)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 18:07
4:68)  Amy:
 Exactly my point!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:19
4:69)  Jake:
 I read this yesterday. (The books "Momo" by Michael Ende):
 "But time is life. And life lives in the heart.
 "And the more of it the people saved, the less they had."
  
 The idea is that modern man (and woman) runs around, hurries, cuts
 all his time in half - and for what? You can't "save up" time
 (like the Grey men would like us to think (from book)) and then
 use it at the end of your life.
  
 Anyways, thoughts, opinions?
 PS: Very good book, if you can get a hold of it (the English Translation
 in out of print.)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 22:55
4:70)  Amy:
 I like it! VEry intriguing!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 00:42
4:71)  Kevin:
 The faster you move, the more time slows down.  You'll live longer.  Part of
 Relativity (a relatively useless part at our tiny fractions of speed).
- - - - -
Jan19/94 11:14
4:72)  Lee:
 Amy:  I don't know if there was anything about it in the guidelines item,
 but influencing the way an item goes will be more effective without a 
 temper tantrum--          :P
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:27
4:73)  Amy:
 A temper tantrum? Hrm, I didn't think it was a temper tantrum...but, hey, 
 you can see it anyway you chose. =P
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:31
4:74)  Larry:
 Amy... Lee... Take a deep breath and count to ten!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:28
4:75)  Stephanie:
 Jake, what llanguage was it in, then???
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:12
4:76)  Jake:
 You're refering to the book "Momo" I assume, SAM.
 It's in German, of course.
 My Readings prof ordered it for me with the rest of our books.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 00:32
4:77)  Amy:
 *deep breath* 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10...you're right I feel much better
 thanks Larry!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:50
4:78)  Larry:
 I feel like Stuart Smalley!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:51
4:79)  Joe:
 Let's hope that passes quickly, Larry.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:00
4:80)  Larry:
 Gone!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:31
4:81)  Margaret:
 Well, I have to tell you all that I feel much more educated now that I have
 spent the last 1/2 hour following a debate about soda/pop/coke/whatever.
 It's bad for you, anyway...
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:35
4:82)  Melissa:
 People, get a life.  Pop, soda, swill, who cares.  And Marg, you *subsist*
 on Coke-who are you trying to kid?  Anyway, live in Michigan--speak
 Michigan.  Much as I hate Michigan.
 
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:52
4:83)  Jake:
 Um, MP, you don't happen to speak Ojibwe, do you?
 Until you do (and I'm learning), you don't speak "Michigan" :-)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 21:36
4:84)  Anand:
 MP and Jake: I've lived in Michigan all my life, I love Michigan's language.
 Hell, I love everything about here (and yes, even the weather.)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 21:54
4:85)  Mitchell:
 Right you are about that multi-named swill, Margaret.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 22:03
4:86)  Lida:
 Anand, I do believe you've lived in Michigan so long that it has driven you
 crazy.  You actually think you like the weather now? It must be -50!
- - - - -
Jan21/94 12:43
4:87)  Jake:
 I _love_ this kind of weather. Why?
 1: It's easier to get warmer than to cool off...
 2: no insects
 3: the snow is beautiful
 4: hot showers feel sooooo good
 5: walking to class is an adventure! (kind've, I guess)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 12:58
4:88)  Tom:
 This weather is great!  Jake is right the snow is beautiful and the weather
 is cold enough to ice skate(play hockey) and ski.  How can you beat this
 weather.  The warm weather is only enjoyable for a short time then it gets
 -ng.  It is too predictable and no fun to drive in.  Just kidding.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:13
4:89)   Lisa:
 I know this is late ( it took me a while to get on here ), but on the
 coca cola issue ... in Mexico, they use coca to mean soda, too.  My parents
 are from a small town near Monterrey, Mexico.  I saw a display over the 
 summer at this corporate building that said Monterrey is the city in which
 the highest per capita consumption of Coca Cola is recorded in the whole
 world.  People love that shit.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:31
4:90)  Tom:
 What is all this about Coca Cola and pop.  It is pop not soda or sode-pop
 or soda pop.  It is just plain and simple.  Here in Michigan we say pop.
 You are attneding the University of Michigan aren't you? ;)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 16:54
4:91)  Amy:
 I thought we establishes that we didn't want to talk about his soda/pop
 crap issue...lets let it die! As for the Michigan question: all I got to say
 it YES! Michigan! ...(you michiganders know the song) Anyway, it has the
 best weather ALL year long...(God I've come off sounding like a all-around
 HAPPY person!!! ACK! Forgive me... :)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 18:52
4:92)  Dawn:
 I really like having 4 seasons.  Some places, like Florida, are warm 
 most of the year and I think that would get old.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 19:46
4:93)  Mitchell:
 Amy brings up a good point with "Michiganders."  I always used the term
 Michiganians.  Michiganders, as I've known it, is used by non-Michigan
 native.  It's also an archaic term.  It sounds like Michigoose and
 Michigeese waddling around. :)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 20:23
4:94)  Lee:
 Mitchell:Yeah, I've heard of all of those.  I'm a Marylander, Sometimes
 I consider myself a Washingtonian, but I try to avoid being called a
 Baltomoron (which I have heard people say--pretty insulting though!).
 Why does it seem that there is no real standard ending for regions like
 that?
- - - - -
Jan21/94 21:06
4:95)  Stephanie:
 Californian, through and through. (Though trying NOT to live
 up to the stereotypes.)
  
 Dawn O.: Yes, the one giant season does get a bit dull, but it
 is always beautiful.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 00:09
4:96)  John Lawler:
 Actually, the kind of forms we get for the morphemes that mean "person
 from location X" are a terrific example of derivational morphology.
 There's dozens of them and they're unpredictable.
 
 There are even arguments about them.  I've heard both Michiganian and
 Michigander.  The first one is an official alternative (composed by
 public officials who felt that the older "Michigander" sounded silly
 or something) and the second dates from the 1800's.  I always thought
 there was no good solution to that.  I wish we had a neat suppletive
 term like "Hoosier" for "person from Indiana".  It may not be elegant,
 but at least it's definitive and unmistakeable.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:45
4:97)  Margaret:
 Jake, I'll come visit you in the hospital, when you can't walk because of
 frostbite...and to sum up this whole coke/pop/soda/whatever issue, I 
 was always told that you should integrate yourselves into whatever culture
 you are visiting (i.e. use the language of the area, etc...) so why don't
 you all speak Michiganian?????
- - - - -
Jan22/94 18:54
4:98)  Mitchell:
 The AHD mentions only "michigander" by the way.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 19:59
4:99)  Alana:
 Hey what about those of us "Michiganders" who also get to be called
 "Yoopers"? We get the 2 names and get to spead Yooper language too. ;)
- - - - -
Jan22/94 21:30
4:100)  Mitchell:
 "Yooper"?  I get it, but the name is unheard of, for me at least, for a
 LONG time.  BTW, Alana, are you from the Upper Peninsula?
- - - - -
Jan23/94 15:43
4:101)  Larry:
 SODA!  As for 'people from Maryland'... I just call them 'people from
 Maryland'.  And I'm from Maryland!  On the weather note, let me jsut
 say that the Frieze Building is appropriately named, because I Frieze
 my ass off trying to walk there every Friday morning.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 17:30
4:102)  Jennifer:
 I've always called myself a Michigander.  i think that Michiganian sounds
 stup d.  It sounds like someone who goes to the U of M alumni camp,
 Michigania.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 19:19
4:103)  Mitchell:
 Would "Michiganite" work?
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:34
4:104)  Jill:
 well, i am from new york and i say soda
- - - - -
Jan24/94 00:44
4:105)  Zachary:
 I moved to Michigan 2 years ago from New Jersey, and I hate it here.
 The weather sucks and there is not enough to do in the summer.  The 
 beaches are poor excuses for large sandboxes, and there are no waves.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:24
4:106)  Kevin:
 Oregonian, or, if you prefer, Local.  I will never be a "person from 
 Michigan" -- I'm too set in my own stupid ways.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:16
4:107)  Tom:
 Is there really that big of deal about whether it is Michiganian or
 Michigander.  I don't think so.  But then again I liked the discussion
 of is it pop or not.  You know where I stand on the issue.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:30
4:108)  Larry:
 What's good for the Michigoose is good for the Michigander.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 12:42
4:109)  Mitchell:
 Tom, I happen to think it is a big deal.  I've lived in Michigan all
 my life, and I don't want to use or hear any terms that could quite
 possibly be offensive.  My vote still goes to Michiganian, until someone
 comes up with something better.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 18:57
4:110)  Stephanie:
 Ditto on the wave thing, Zachary. 
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:07
4:111)  Melissa:
 JB- Oh *please* tell me that you were being sarcastic in your response to
 my comment on "speaking Michigan"!  I was in no way inferring that anyone
 in this hellish state o' mine speaks an actual native Michigan language (
 excepting, of course, Native Americans such as the Ojibwe ).  Also, why am
 I a woman after your own heart?  Because I love linguistics or because I'm
 so sick of that tedious pop/soda debate?
 
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:19
4:112)  Jake:
 In order: yes, yes, no, and just 'cause.
 Yes, I was being sarcastic.
 And your a woman amoh because you want to learn evbery langauge in
 existance. I'd major in "Learning New Languages" if I could.
 However, linguistics is the closest I can find *mock sniff*
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:32
4:113)  Alana:
 Yes, Mitchell, I am from the UP -- from Escanaba to be exact.  My roommate
 and friend Vassoula is from there too but I don't think either of us intend
 to go back after college.  Life in a "bigger" town is much better than up
 there although it is really pretty.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:18
4:114)  Kory:
 You guys are way too hard on MIchigan.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:28
4:115)  Mitchell:
 Funny, until now I never knew anyone from the UP.  This is part of
 the state that I've always lived in, and you could just as well be
 talking about another distant country.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 12:12
4:116)  Alana:
 Kory, I wasn't being hard on Michigan, I just want to get out of the UP.
 I actually prefer warmer climates and bigger towns but Escanaba was a great
 place to grow up.  
- - - - -
Jan25/94 12:46
4:117)  Melissa:
 Well, *I* want to get out of Michigan.  I've lived here my whole life
 and I've had enough.  But I guess there's nothing wrong with as a 
 state or anything.  Except winter.  Winter needs to die.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:39
4:118)  Margaret:
 Melissa, I wasn't aware that a season could die, but if so I agree with you,
 as always:).
 Zach,I will be the first to admit that there are much better places to 
 live than Michigan, but how can you complain about our beaches, the 
 lack of waves, etc..., when you have all that medical waste to boast? It
 does make for pretty scenery...!!!!  Actually, the Jersey shore is cool,
 I went there this summer, what beach do you go to?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:58
4:119)  Tara:
 Alana, I went hiking on Grand Island this summer.  It was beautiful
 up there, but we got covered in flies on the North side of that island.
 I also had a Pastie for the first time, before this summer I had never
 heard of those before.
   (nice grammar, sigh! (:  )
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:34
4:120)  Kory:
 If you pick your spots this is a great place to be(in the summer
 that is).
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:58
4:121)  Stephanie:
 I think it is funny thatyou were say ing how you wanted to leave MI.
 I like it. In fact, this is my first winter, but I can see how it might
 get to be kinda a drag afer a few consecutive years.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:22
4:122)  Jessie:
 Try 21 consecutive years!  I've been here my whole life, and you
 know what!?  You'll never get used to it.  Either you love it or 
 you hate it. I hate it.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 22:23
4:123)  Melissa:
 Yeah- 20 consecutive years is getting somewhat tedious.  I plan on this 
 being my last.  I'll be in Russia next year, in (believe it or not)
 a much more temperate climate.  I can't wait.  By the way, have I 
 mentioned that I HATE WINTER!?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:04
4:124)  Margaret:
 Melissa, I am getting the distinct impression that you are not overly
 fond of the winter season, am I correct in this assumption?????
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:58
4:125)  Henry:
 I plan to go to London next winter for the exact same reason.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 00:11
4:126)  Monica:
 Monica
 Alana, Have you ever heard of Iron Mountain? I have a lot of relatives there
 and my dad used to work up there in the summers. I personally like Michigan
 We are lucky enough to have the Great Lakes, and I spend my summers up north
 Mi and there are many beautiful beaches that I go to. Actually I perfer them
 over any. For all of you winter haters maybe you have SAD(seasonal affective
 disorder) I just learned about it in psych. It basically means you hate
 winter because there is no sunlight.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:29
4:127)  John Lawler:
 Anybody with SAD benefits extremely from full-spectrum lighting
 (usually fluorescent).  I know many people who are no longer
 depressed because they installed the right bulbs.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:12
4:128)  Tom:
 That is correct Prof. L. I think we should get it for the lecture room!:)
 Just kidding.  Hey Monica what do you think of the lectures in Pysch. so
 far.  The thing that I found most interesting was the illusion of the
 flag when we were talking about preception.  The movie was Okay also.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 11:07
4:129)  Lee:
 I guess I'm not the only one who is also taking Psych 111.  Tom, I liked
 the flag thing too.  The lectures are cool.  After years here, I finally
 managed to take a few intro courses which were interesting (psych & ling).
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:13
4:130)  Melissa:
 Yeah, Monica--my Mom thought I had SAD last year.  But I think my gloomy
 moods could possibly have had to do with the fact that I wouldn't leave 
 the dorm sometimes for three days at a time!  It is partially that I 
 miss sunlight, but also it's that winter is just a generally inconvenient
 season.  I feel really restricted by all the snow and arctic winds.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 19:41
4:131)  Tara:
 I'm taking psych 111 too!  Melissa, I really think winters are inconvenient
 Sometimes I don't go outside because it's not worth the hassel of being
 cold and slipping all over the place.  :)  In the summer though, I LOVE 
 being outside- I can't wait 'til it warms up again!
- - - - -
Jan29/94 13:05
4:132)  Stephanie:
 Me neither.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:13
4:133)  Alana:
 Hey Tara, you'll never believe it but I'm one of the few people from the UP
 who hates pasties and do I get ripped on for it.  I'm trying to learn to like
 them, but so far it hasn't worked. Monica, yes I have hear of Iron Mountain. 
 It's about an hour away form my town and I have srome friends who live there.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:26
4:134)  Monica:
 Monica
 To everybody in Psych. 111, so far I think it is sorta a pain class.  I just
 took the test and it was O.K.  I'm not so sure about his lectures though,
 some of it is interesting but definitly not all of it.  What did you think of
 the test?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:29
4:135)  Lee:
 That wasn't too bad, but it had the type of questions where either you knew
 it or you didn't.  I don't like that kind of pure memorization.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:22
4:136)  Dawn:
 What are pasties?
 To all the psych 111 people, I took a Bio 152 test that was supposed to be at
 7:00.  Needless to say, we didn't get started until 7:20.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:25
4:137)  Karen :
 Jennifer: Did you go to Camp Michigania? Has anyone? I have gone 
 most of my life----I come from a long line of Michigan Alums (read as 
 parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, great whatevers, cousins,
 etc. Also read undergrad and grad school)
 It is a sickening and rabid condition, and I have found there is no
 avoidance tactic save giving into the genetic programming and becoming
 the next happy conformist at this institution. I suppose that there 
 are worse places to be. . .
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:41
4:138)  Tom:
 I thought that the pys. test was O.K> but I also agree that I
 did not like the pure memorization either.  I would prefer a test
  that tests how well you understood the material rather than just
 testing if you memorized the terms and diagrams!!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:30
4:139)  Stephanie:
 Karen: I, too, come from a Michigan family. I think this school
 builds dynasties.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:40
4:140)  Jennifer:
 I can't say that I've ever been to Camp Michigania.  I'm only the second in 
 the fam to go to Michigan, and the first one only went for a year.  But, I do
 know a ton of people who have gone there with their families and who have
 worked there...
- - - - -
Feb01/94 14:59
4:141)  Karen :
 Sam, Jennifer: dynasties are good, as long as you are teh one in power---
 but I guess that is why we have politics. . .
 I also worked at Camp for a summer, so if you want to play the name game,
 I'll bet could. 
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:00
4:142)  Larry:
 I'm lucky if my family can identify the state of Michigan on a map!
 Obviously, I'm out of state with no Wolverine lineage.  I'll have to 
 start some....
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:01
4:143)  Tara:
 Alana I was wondering, with your vast knowledge of the UP, :)
 if you knew what "The Mystery Spot" is.  There are so many
 signs for that place and it bugged me that I didn't know what they
 kept there.  Can you help??
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:30
4:144)  Vassoula:
 The Mystery Spot is supposed to be a place where different things happen. 
 For example, you can sit on a chair that's on the wall.  I've never been
 there, but it's supposed to be cool.  I'm also, unfortunately, from the upper
 Peninsula.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:31
4:145)  Alana:
 Tara, the mystery spot is a funky little place where everything is optical
 illusios.  My tennis team stopped there once on the way to a meet in Petosky
 and it was a lot of fun.  It seems like you can hold up heavy objects and 
 everything leans.  It's on my list of "must see" places (but maybe only a 
 one time "must see" but very cool). :-)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:31
4:146)  Tara:
 I don't know why you think it is unfortunate to be from up there,
 it's beautiful!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:38
4:147)  Vassoula:
 It's beautiful, but it's so far away from anything exciting.
 It's a nice place to go to if you want peace and quiet.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:10
4:148)  Zachary:
 Everyone could use some peace and quiet sometimes, and besides, 
 it stimulates creative thought.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:35
4:149)  Larry:
 It may be beautiful, Tara, but it's also COLD!  Warm is good! :)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 13:19
4:150)  Tara:
 Warm is GOOD,  but in the summer there it's not bad.  I guess
 winter wouldn't be too happy though, except you can see those
 penguins running all over the place.  :)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 13:47
4:151)  Lida:
 My sister went to MTU and on our way back from visiting
 her we stopped at The Mystery Spot.  It wasn't as 
 exciting as I thought it would be, but everyone should
 go just for the experience.  
 I also agree that one should not go to the U-P
 looking for loads of modern entertainment.
 Its beauty stimulates peace of mind if you let it.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 14:27
4:152)  Jill:
 i went to sleepaway camp for 10 years with my two older sisters.  I loved it.
 I am from NY and my camp was in upstate NY.  We played sports and had great
 activites. I miss it.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:26
4:153)  Stephanie:
 I feel really dumb saying this, but when I first moved here, I kept
 seeing signs that said, I need a ride to UP. I had no idea what that
 was. I thought it was like Krogerws or Meijers or something, and I
 never made the connection. 
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:34
4:154)  Jennifer:
 Okay Karen, are you ready to play geography?  I know Jill Bookholder, Ed
 Zabrowski, and Cheryl Mellen.  I happen to have gone to sleepaway camp with
 Cheryl at wonderful Camp Maplehurst in Kewadin, MI (its outside of Traverse).
 She was my C.I.T. and she's one of my best friend's sisters.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:43
4:155)  Karen :
 Jennifer: I know all three. . . Jill I met this summer, Ed I have known
 for a few years, and Cheryl I worked with when I was on "staph" as we 
 called it. Small world. . .
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:50
4:156)  Jennifer:
 Cool.  I've known Jill for a long time because our grandparents are close 
 friends, and I went to high school with Ed.  I think he's living in East 
 Lansing right now, but not going to State.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:24
4:157)  Monica:
 Monica
 Speaking of camps. . .  Have any of you ever heard of Camp Al-Gon-Quian?
 It's 20 min. from Petoskey on Burt Lake. Next year will be my 6th summer
 (4th summer as a counselor)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 18:09
4:158)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Where exactly is this Mystery Spot?
- - - - -
Feb02/94 21:03
4:159)  Kevin:
 That's the Mystery.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 15:11
4:160)  Alana:
 I think the Mystery Spot is near St. Ignes (sorry I can't spell it).  But if
 anyone is going to to UP to see it, there's absolutely no way to miss all
 the big signs...
- - - - -
Feb04/94 17:06
4:161)  Vassoula:
 It's by St. Ignace.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 00:01
4:162)  Jessie:
 Hey, there's a Mystery spot in N. Cal. in the redwood forest.
 It was hilarious!
- - - - -
Feb07/94 07:23
4:163)  John Lawler:
 There's one in downtown San Jose, too.  It used to be up in the hills,
 but (get this) *they moved it*.  Give you any hints?
- - - - -
Feb07/94 13:14
4:164)  Larry:
 Sorry, no mystery spots in Maryland. 
 I guess we are "mystery challenged".
- - - - -
Feb07/94 14:45
4:165)  Stephanie:
 jEssie- definitely hilarious
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:14
4:166)  Kevin:
 John, someone must have used spot remover.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 18:17
4:167)  Melissa:
 Oh, Kevin.  That was *comically* challenged! :)
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:11
4:168)  Kevin:
 Please don't report me, Melissa.  My comedic license has been revoked.
- - - - -
Jun12/94 22:58
4:169)  Kevin:
 Heh.  I've been in Georgia for the past few days, and I had forgotten just
 how *different* a really fast, deep-South conversation can sound if you're
 not ready for it.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 5     Jan06/94 10:24    22 lines    43 responses
John Lawler                        
Problem 1: Turkish

    This is the item for discussion of the Turkish problem (number
 1 on the handout).  A few hints....
  
    1) don't look at numbers 17-20 until you've worked for a while on
       1-16.  You'll see why.
 
    2) Turkish has suffixes, i.e, endings, that change the shape of the
       word instead of using prepositions ('of', 'from', etc.) like we
       do in English.  This is called a "case system", and each different
       ending is a different "case".
 
    3) One can stack several endings up, one after another, in Turkish.
       So you can have one ending for plural, followed by one ending
       meaning 'possessed by first person', followed by another meaning
       'possessed by plural', followed by one meaning 'of'.  And that's
       a *short* word.
 
    4) Once you get to numbers 17-20, figure out what the changes are
       in the endings and what causes them.  You may not be able to get
       it, but here's a hint:  check out the (unchanging) "roots" that
       one adds the endings to.  What do all the roots in 1-16 have
       in common that none of the roots in 17-20 have in common?

   43 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:25
5:1)  Jake:
 OK. I got all the turkish stuff. Anything harder, John?
 When does the _real_ work begin?
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:35
5:2)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Jake, you're gonna have fun this semester.  Don't worry, we've got
 pleny of problems much harder than the Turkish. :)
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:54
5:3)  Nicholas:
 Yeah the Turkish was fun. What exactly was the use of it? 
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:57
5:4)  Gary:
 Hey yllij, why don't you send me a message?  Let's talk coffee!!
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:20
5:5)  Calvin:
 Come to think of it, is Seyhan Ege (the chem professor here) a turkish name?
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:21
5:6)  Mitchell:
 I like challenges.  Bring on all the languages.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 13:14
5:7)  Stephanie:
 WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING THAT???? (SZCZ) <confused look on my face>
- - - - -
Jan08/94 16:19
5:8)  Mitchell:
 Stephanie, look at my last name.  Incidentally, it's pronounced shch (as in
 Khrushchev).  MY last name is pronounced shch-pine-chick.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:47
5:9)  Larry:
 I think Stephanie meant "why do you keep signing your responses?"
 <same confused look>
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:51
5:10)  Mitchell:
 Oops, I guess I sign my responses out of habit.  I sign my notes all the time
 on Prodigy and no one seems to mind (in fact, eveyone there does it) but if
 people here find disfavor with it, then I'll respect their wishes.  I
 apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 17:23
5:11)  Stephanie:
 No problem.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:49
5:12)  Mitchell:
 Regarding 17-20 on Turkish: I think there may be some typos, e.g., on 18,
 shouldn't it be "kolimden" if we follow the examples provided from 1-16?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:04
5:13)  Jake:
 Can't say exactly, as I don't have the pages in front of me,
 but I remeber that, and I think not.
 I looked at it as: Well, it's a language, so it has irregularities.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:26
5:14)  Stephanie:
 I think that 18 is in the phonetic alphabet, and therefore would be said
 like "kolimden", though it is spelled differently. Where is Lawler when we
 need him???
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:36
5:15)  Tara:
 Problems 17-20 do have irregularities, but is it because of pronounciation
 or does it have something to do with the vowels in the root words??
- - - - -
Jan10/94 10:08
5:16)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [John should be appearing any moment now. He was scheduled to return
 from Boston last night. Stay tuned!]
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:10
5:17)  John Lawler:
 *Poof*  (cloud of smoke)
 
 Mitchell - type "text" at the "Respond, Forget, or Pass:" prompt
 to see the hints I provided.  No, it's not a typo.  There's
 more going on than you suspected.  Try some more.
 
 Jake, it's not irregular.  It's quite regular; you just don't
 know the rule that it obeys.
 
 Stephanie, yes it is phonetically spelled, but so are the others.
 No, it shouldn't be "kolimden".
 
 Calvin, I'd guess Seyhan Ege is certainly a Turkish name.
 
 Nicolas, the point is that you can figure out stuff like that,
 and there's a great deal to figure out about language.  As
 Leonora pointed out.  This is what we're going to be doing
 almost all semester.  Fair warning.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 21:55
5:18)  Anand:
 Hi!  Jake, my name is Andy and I just got started today or January 11, 1994. 
 This stuff is great. I've read many of your messages, and I find this confer
 program pretty neat. About the turkish stuff, interesting thing I did on
 Thursday.  My roomate, his name is Ugur Indirikas, just came from Turkey, so
 we tested his knowlege about Turkish.  He what I was saying, but it got
 pretty hilarious when I started making jokes about his language to him.  I
 would say Ugur go(he taught me how to say this in Turkish) to your little
 house in Turkish.  Or Ugur go to the Beach.  We were having a blast in our
 hall.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 02:26
5:19)  Matt:
 This responding thing is fun.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:39
5:20)  Stephanie:
 Dont get addicted, Matt.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:42
5:21)  Jake:
 Get addicted, Matt :-)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:47
5:22)  Stephanie:
 NOOOOOO DONT DO IT!!!!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:57
5:23)  Lee:
 Get addicted, but then seek help before confer takes over your life.
 Matt, if you really want to get addicted try the conference Meet:students
 in mts. Yikes, you'll never get off the computer.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 18:41
5:24)  Anand:
 About numbers 18-20, these words follow certain rules In Turkish, there is
 one group of vowels which you can subdivide into 2 categ.. 1) first group is
 a,u,o,i (with no dot on top) 2) second group is e, i, o , u (i,o,u have dots
 on top) In 17-20, since beginning root words, the nouns of the sentence, have
 vowels in the first group, then the preceeding vowels must also be in the
 first group. For instance, cik in question 7 is turned into cuk in question
 17 because kus has the vowel (u) from the first group.  There, now you know
 the rule.  By the way here's some cool sayings in Turkish 1).  nasil gidiyor
 (the first i doesn't have a dot on the top)
      This means "How's it going" 2).  seni seviyorum : means "I love you" 3).
  michigan cok guzel bir yerdir. means "michigan's a beautiful place" 4). 
 michigan state'i kimse iplemez.: a slang version of nobody cares for Michigan
 state
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:44
5:25)  John Lawler:
 Soon you will learn how to describe those two groups of vowels and
 see why they group that way.  And there are also *other* groups that
 affect the morphology.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 03:12
5:26)  Anand:
 John, I'm sorry, but what does "morpheme" and "gloss" mean.  I didn't
 definition
 quite catch your
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:17
5:27)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 I'm not John, but I have a definition from this book I have "An Introduction
 to Language" that I can give a shot.
  
 The traditional term for the most elemental unit of grammatical form is
 morpheme. The word is derived from the Greek word morphe(line over e),
 meaning "form". A single word may be composed of one or more morphemes.
 A morpheme may be defined as the "minimal linguistic sign", a grammatical
 unit in which there is an arbitrary union of a sound and a meaning annd
 that cannot be further analyzed. ...this may be too simple a definition...
 Every word in every language is composed of one or more morphemes.
    "They gave it [to] me," Humpty Dumpty continued ..., "for an
         un-birthday present."
    "I beg your pardon?" Alice said with a puzzled air.
    "I'm not offended," said Humpty Dumpty.
    "I mean, what is an un-birthday present?"
    "A present given when it isn't your birthday, of course."
  
 Then you have morphological rules of combining morphemes to form words.
   Peanuts Cartoon
   Lucy: "I can't imagine what happened to Charlie Brown."
   Linus (sucking thumb, holding blanket): "He didn't really want to
         go to camp, did he? Well, then I think it's quite obvious where
         he went."
   Lucy: OBVIOUS?! It may be obvious to you. But it's sure disobvious
         to me!
   [Linus has walked away. Lucy by herself now.]
   Lucy: Unobvious? Exobvious? Antiobvious? Inobvious? Subobvious? Nonobvious?
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:21
5:28)  John Lawler:
 Yup.  Morphemes all.  The English word "bookkeepers" has 4 morphemes in it
 (and is also the only English word with three double letters in a row).
 
 Gloss I defined in class; it's a short, not always totally reliable, but
 intended-to-be-useful meaning, typically put in 'single quotes'.  Most
 of the meanings of the problems we've had so far are glosses.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 12:34
5:29)  Dale:
 Thanks for the meaning of gloss again.  Some person in class wouldn't let
 me see the definition of gloss so thanks for the def. again.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 13:25
5:30)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [share information! That's how you get more.]
- - - - -
Jan13/94 14:53
5:31)  Larry:
 Jimi, does that apply to exams too???  ;)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:47
5:32)  John Lawler:
 You'll see...
- - - - -
Jan13/94 16:54
5:33)  Jake:
 So, JLH, if i have two informations, and share them with you,
 how much information do I have remaining?
 And should you give me change?
- - - - -
Jan14/94 18:40
5:34)  Lee:
 John, I think you're missing other words with three double letters in a row:
   bookkeeping,bookkeeper,...    :)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 13:38
5:35)  Larry:
 Those are just derivations of the same word.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 20:01
5:36)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Larry, see John's reply.
 Jake, depends on how much information I give you for your two informations.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 11:15
5:37)  Lee:
 They are derivations, but are they still considered the same word?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 13:16
5:38)  Scott]:
 Someone please tell me whassup widda Turkish thing.  Maybe I'm not suited
 to Ling.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:40
5:39)  Margaret:
 SCott, hang in there...I feel the same way. We should start a support group
 for the "Linguistically-challenged".  What do you say?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 12:08
5:40)  Tom:
 I agee totally!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 22:26
5:41)  Melissa:
 Hey, Marg--why don't we be totally honest with people about you?  Abou
 you being challenged in...well, just about everything.  Hmm?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:06
5:42)  Margaret:
 Well, MELISSA, I sort of assumed that they would figure that out for 
 themselves, but thanks for speeding up their realization....They will
 now place me in a class with you, I'm sure....By the way, I'm assuming
 you are doing linguistics, call me when you get off confer...if you get
 this...
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:30
5:43)  John Lawler:
 RESPONSE 1:100


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 6     Jan06/94 10:35    33 lines    19 responses
John Lawler                        
Problem 2: Rotokas

Item 6     Jan06/94 10:35    33 lines    19 responses
John Lawler                        
Problem 2: Rotokas

    This is the item for discussion of the Rotokas problem (number 2).
 
 Here are a few hints:
 
   1) Rotokas is a root language, like Turkish (in some ways), and there
      are roots for a number of verbs in this problem.  The first thing
      to do is to isolate the forms for each verb and see what they all
      have in common.
 
   2) There are at least two different patterns of verb endings in
      Rotokas.  Which pattern gets used is determined by which verb
      root is being used.  Just like some verbs in Spanish take "a"
      in the subjunctive and others take "e", and it depends entirely
      on the verb.  This is illustrated nicely in this problem by
      having two different verbs with the same root that each take
      different endings.
 
   3) For future reference, the pattern of endings is called a "paradigm".
      We'll be using that word a lot this term.  And the kind of thing
      that gets done to the verbs here is called "inflection".
 
   4) Notice that there are pronouns ("he", "I", etc.) in the English
      glosses, but only one word in the Rotokas examples.  This is because
      English doesn't have much inflection, and has to use a lot of words
      to express things that other languages do much more simply in one
      word.
 
   5) There's a pronoun "(it)" in numbers 10-12 and 22-24, with the verb
      that translates English 'build'.  That's because English makes that
      verb transitive and requires that it have a direct object, whereas
      it's not necessarily transitive in Rotokas.  You get a lot of
      kludges like this in short glosses; they're intended to give you
      some information, but they can't possible give you all of it.

   19 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:22
6:1)  Mitchell:
 Question: what's a "kludge"?  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 13:17
6:2)  Stephanie:
 Things that trip you up. (from the common root <klugum> (Latin)---meaning
 to be clumsy) see also:klutz
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:50
6:3)  Larry:
 Am I the only one that doesn't consult their dictionary daily?  I hope
 you weren't writing that off the top of your head....
- - - - -
Jan09/94 17:24
6:4)  Stephanie:
 Of course I was
- - - - -
Jan09/94 18:10
6:5)  Jake:
 Steph keeps lots of things on the top of her head.
 Dictionaries, thesauruses, world almanacs. Lunch.
 Heh heh, I kill me :-)
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:54
6:6)  Mitchell:
 Regarding Rotokas: if I'm reading this right, both "sit" and "build" are
 translated with the root "pau."  Doesn't that become confusing?  Further,
 there seem to be some "r"s missing in the middle of some words; e.g.: 2,4,
 5,10,22.  There are also irregularity with the vowels denoting the person
 of the verb; e.g.: 9 should be vokarovere, 8 should be vokaruvere.  Why is
 this so?  Thanx
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:07
6:7)  Jake:
 Again, no, those are irregularities.
 So, "sit" and "build" mean the same thing.
 Is it hard and wooden or is it small and flaps.
 Bats, that is.
 People can tell from context.
 Just like the difference between "you" and "you" in english:
 we know when we mean [du, tu] or when we mean [ihr, vous]
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:26
6:8)  Stephanie:
 Jake, if you don't stop, *I* might kill you. :)
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:59
6:9)  Tara:
 Actually you can tell the two "pau" words apart by their endings...but
 this looks like an annoying language to learn.  
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:33
6:10)  Larry:
 Wait til I tell my 'rents I'm now fluent in Rotokas.  Boy will they be
 proud.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:12
6:11)  John Lawler:
 You guys weren't paying enough attention to the hints when they
 streamed past.  Try going "text" at the "Respond, Forget, or Pass:"
 prompt to see them again, now that you know something of what
 the problems are.  There are no typos in this problem, by the
 way.  You're expecting the wrong kind of thing.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 16:59
6:12)  Jake:
 Steph, what's your problem? I wwas making a point, so I used two common
 langauges, French and German, to illustrate my point.
 Chill out, girl.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 22:00
6:13)  Stephanie:
 No problem, Jake. 
- - - - -
Jan11/94 01:42
6:14)  Larry:
 Kids... it's not too late for me to turn this car around right
 now and go home! (Stephanie and Jake)
- - - - -
Jan11/94 11:30
6:15)  John Lawler:
 They're just full of high spirits, Larry.  They'll quiet
 down eventually.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 15:29
6:16)  Larry:
 I guess I was having flashbacks of my brother and I fighting
 on long trips.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 18:51
6:17)  Stephanie:
 Sorry
- - - - -
Jan11/94 20:04
6:18)  Larry:
 No prob!
- - - - -
Jan11/94 23:01
6:19)  Vassoula:
 Larry-I'm with you.  I don't consult my dictionary often
 enough.  I think I'll bring it next time.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 7     Jan06/94 10:41    21 lines    19 responses
John Lawler                        
Problem 3: Amharic

    This is the item for discussion of the Amharic problem (Number 3).
 
 Here are some hints:
 
   1) Instead of numbered examples with glosses, this problem presents
      a paradigm, consisting of four forms of six verbs, arrayed in a
      six-by-four matrix.  The glosses are given for each verb, but
      not for each form.  Your job is to figure out how each form is
      made, such that, given one form of a different verb, you could
      say what all the other forms are.
 
   2) The past tense and present tense forms shouldn't be a problem in
      understanding, but "imperative" means the form you use when you're
      giving an order, and "infinitive" means a special form of the verb
      that gets used in a number of ways.  We often put "to" in front
      of the infinitive form of a verb in English, but then English doesn't
      have much morphology, and there's only one verb that has a special
      form of the infinitive that's different from the present tense.
 
   3) Strong hint: notice the vowel patterns in the columns and the
      consonant patterns in the rows.

   19 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:28
7:1)  Jake:
 Heh. Amarhic is alittle like Arabic, just fugglier. :)
  What the hey.. Tom Servo, you're _naked_.
  -Crow T Robot
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:23
7:2)  Mitchell:
 Jake, remember this one: "Joel, I'm pregnant with your child" ? SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan07/94 21:41
7:3)  Jake:
 Yep. err, can't remember the episode, though.
 Here's one of my favs:
 Guy on screen: Anyone call?
 Crow T Robot: Mother Teresa called. She hates you.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 02:16
7:4)  Mitchell:
 Can't recall the episode either.  Oh, by the way, we're supposed to be
 discussing Amharic. SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 19:59
7:5)  Jake:
 Well, I'm sure someone's translated MST3K into Amharic. :-)
  But I got the Amharic all figured out too.
 Here's one from last night:
 Guy on Screem: Don't worry, I don't hurt innocent people...
 Tom Servo: I got assistants to do that.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 17:26
7:6)  Stephanie:
 What the Heck are you talking about, Jake?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 18:12
7:7)  Jake:
 Sorry, went on an MST3K tangent there.
 Mst3K = Mystery Science Theater 3000:
 It's a show about a guy, some robots and two mad scientists.
 The premise is to watch bad movies and heckle them.
 It's possibly the best show on TV.
 It's on at 8:00pm and 12:00am on Comedie Central (channel 52)
 I really recomentr watching it. It _is_ great.
  
 And John L. likes so, so might earn you some brownie points :-)
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:45
7:8)  Mitchell:
 No kidding, John L. likes MST3K?  wow.  What episode did this come from?:
 "Kids come running for the real taste of raw goat"
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:56
7:9)  Mitchell:
 About amharic: either the Amharic examples are typo-free, or Amharic is a
 very regular language (at least with the examples given to us)
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:10
7:10)  Jake:
 It's from 'The Day the Earth Froze."
 No. I take it Amharic, like Arabic, is very regular.
 Also, since it's so different from English, John may have chosen
 only regular examples. Which I think is likely.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 10:10
7:11)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [How about someone starting the MST3K Item?]
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:34
7:12)  Larry:
 How about not (please) :)
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:19
7:13)  John Lawler:
 You can always forget it, Larry.  It'll get them to shut up
 here about it, so we can discuss Amharic.
 
 Ok, folks.  Yes! this is the Amharic item, not the MST3K
 item.  Please have some consideration for all the other
 70+ people who are going to have to read all of this.
 And might not finish if there's too much chaff.
 
 Making irrelevant responses, however interesting and funny,
 is pretty much like speaking up in class.  If you can be
 *sure* you're going to be entertaining the rest of the class
 as well as your teachers, fine.  But you don't want to do
 it too much off the subject, or you might get in the way of
 what the teacher's trying to do, and irritate plenty of
 people you'd rather not.
 
 Amharic, as Jake points out, is similar to Arabic.  They're
 both Semitic languages, and they share (with Hebrew and other
 Semitic languages) the common Semitic "tri-consonantal root" pattern,
 whereby the three consonants signify the *meaning* of the verb
 and the vowels and affixes signify the *function* of the verb.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 13:46
7:14)  Mitchell:
 I apologize about veering off the designated path regarding topic items.
 I'll see to it to keep to the subject at hand from now on.  Incidentally,
 Prof. Lawler, would you object if there were a separate MST3K item?
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:03
7:15)  John Lawler:
 Nope.  Go for it.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:05
7:16)  Jake:
 As long as we can amke it linguistic :-)
 Alright, John, I kowtow and beg forgiveness. (When the cat's away...)
  
 Anyway, I had a question about Amharic:
  Is it written in its "native" alphabet, IPA, or what?
 Another point: In Arabic, the "infintive" is simply the third-person,
 masculine, singular, imperfect, but...
  Amharic's "past tense" looks supiciously like an Arabic infinitve, but
 it has its own infinitve section, so...
  does Amharic have a "real" infinitve, or that just an "invented" case?
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:13
7:17)  John Lawler:
 As to Amharic infinitives... I dunno.  Depends on what the linguist
 who compiled them meant by the term.
 
 As for the transcription, all of these are phonemic, which means a
 designated, language-relative subset of IPA, sometimes with traditional
 symbols that are adapted.
 
 We'll be talking a whole lot more about phonemes by and by.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 19:22
7:18)  John P:
 would it be possible to get these problems done in ipa?  i started
 to learn it when we did some czeck and russian in choir, but i 
 didn't learn more than i needed to sing the right vowels.  is that
 part of this course?  could it be part of this course?  if not, where
 can i learn it/who can teach it to me?
- - - - -
Jan10/94 20:50
7:19)  John Lawler:
 IPA is just one standard.  You'll certainly learn something (though
 not everything) about it.  More can be had by taking Linguistics
 312 or 412.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 8     Jan06/94 10:55    38 lines    16 responses
John Lawler                        
Problem 4: Mexican Spanish

    This is the item for discussion of the Mexican Spanish problem (no. 4).
 
 This problem has a lot of information, and no single "solution", like
 number 3 did.  But it *does* have some generalizations you can draw.
 Depending on what questions you're asking, of course.  Here are some
 possibly useful questions:
 
  1) There are only two genders in Spanish: masculine and feminine.
     How many different ways of marking them are there?  Are they
     always distinguished?
 
  2) There are two numbers in Spanish: singular and plural.  How
     many different ways of marking them are there?  Are they always
     distinguished?  How does number marking interact with gender marking?
 
  3) How does adjective agreement work?  (by the way, number 19 is an
     idiom; normally the adjective follows the noun it modifies).
 
  4) Is "xente" plural?  How can you tell?
 
  5) What is the gender of "xente"?  Of "madre", "padre", "poeta", and
     "amante"?  How can you tell?
 
  6) Notice that we use two words, "handsome" and "pretty", where Spanish
     uses one word with two endings.  Spanish is more inflected than
     English.
 
  7) Notice that we use two words, "uncle" and "aunt", where Spanish uses
     one word with two endings.
 
  8) Notice that we use two words, "mother" and "father", where Spanish uses
     one word with two prefixes.
 
  9) Is (8) above a reasonable hypothesis?  Why or why not?  Are (6) and
     (7) above reasonable?  Why or why not?
 
 10) How do you decide what's a part of the root and what's an affix
     (i.e, a suffix or a prefix)?

   16 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:29
8:1)  Jake:
 Taco, burrito, fajita...
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:03
8:2)  Nicholas:
 I'm really glad you gave us all those usefull hints. I have to admit that
 deducing all that information by just looking at the problem was NOT going
 to happen... :) 
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:25
8:3)  Mitchell:
 Thanx for the information on all of the problem sets.  Even so, I
 probably would have figured out a lot of it anyway.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan09/94 19:58
8:4)  Mitchell:
 I don't remember so many x's in spanish when I studied it.  Could the x's
 here be substituted with another letter; j or h, for instance???
- - - - -
Jan09/94 20:21
8:5)  Larry:
 The mexican-spanish is different from the Spanish that we all learned
 in school.  As for the 'x', pronounce it as the Spanish 'j'.  "Xente" is
 pronounced roughly the same as "gente" in the Spanish you most likely
 learned.  See Don Quixote....
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:11
8:6)  Jake:
 I thought that it was written in IPA, but I'm probably wrong.
 IPA=International Phoenetic Alphabet
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:28
8:7)  Stephanie:
 I believe you are correct, Mr. Baker
- - - - -
Jan09/94 22:10
8:8)  Tara:
 Mr. Baker what's your major??
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:25
8:9)  John Lawler:
 Mr. Baker aspires to become a linguistics major.
 
 The Spanish examples, are, of course, not written in standard
 Spanish orthography ('correct spelling', Gk).  They're written
 in a phonemic transcription that identifies the sounds that are
 significant to Spanish and ignores other differences.  /x/ is
 a voiced velar fricative, like the "ch" in German or Scottic
 "Loch" or Hebrew or Yiddish "Chutzpah". In Spanish, it's
 spelled "J" as in "jota", or "X" as in "Mexico", or "G" as
 in "gente" (but only before "i" or "e").  But it's the same
 sound no matter how you spell it.  Like "C" and "K" in 
 English.
 
 We're concerned, here and everywhere else this term, with how
 languages really work, which means the ways they're pronounced,
 rather than the ways some people say they're supposed to work,
 which means the ways they're spelled.  This is not the last
 time you will hear this.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 23:08
8:10)  Vassoula:
 I think that in spanish it's easier because they have one
 word with different affixes.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:40
8:11)  Stephanie:
 I thought it was easier because I had studied it in High School, and where I
 am from, most people speak spanish...some ONLY speak spanish, so you learn a
 lot.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 18:01
8:12)  Lee:
 Professor Lawler, I thought your hints are pretty interesting, because
 I studied spanish for four years (and even got pretty good at it), but never
 looked at the structure the way your hints lead me to think about things.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 01:17
8:13)  Ghislaine:
 I am a little confused about the spelling of some of the words discussed in
 this exercise.  I am a native spanish speaker who has been thaught to spell
 xente gente. Why the different Spelling???
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:24
8:14)  John Lawler:
 As I mentioned above, Spanish spelling (or almost any spelling, for that
 matter) doesn't represent the sounds accurately.  "X" in Mexico, "J"
 in jefe, and "G" in gente are all the same, so they should use the same
 symbol.  The use of /x/ for that sound (voiceless velar fricative) is
 standard in the International Phonetic Alphabet.  Thats' all.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 14:57
8:15)  Larry:
 The quickest example off the top of my head is Mejico vs Mexico.  In my
 Spanish classes, we always saw both spelling and we learned that
 although Mejico was more universally accepted, both were acceptable for
 our purposes.  (Just a little anecdote)
- - - - -
Jan14/94 18:43
8:16)  Lee:
 Ghislaine, something else for you--the spellings we are given on the sheets
 is purely phonetic, NOT the actual spellings for the words.  That should
 explain some of the differences.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 9     Jan07/94 13:32     1 line     47 responses
Jill                      
confer help

 what is the purpose of confer?

Related items:
   25

   47 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:34
9:1)  Jake:
 The purpose of this confer is so that John can have something
 to do during the weekends :-)
  Actually, I believe it's a "get to know each other, blah about class"
 kind of thing.
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:34
9:2)  Mark:
 Hi...where is evreyone else...hmm..what now??? 8^) <--smiley face
- - - - -
Jan07/94 13:36
9:3)  Jake:
 Always thou
 oops
 Always thought that one looked more like a duck :)
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:05
9:4)  Nicholas:
 I think I like this confer idea... But I think I'm biaised 'cause I like
 email and computers! *grin*
- - - - -
Jan08/94 13:19
9:5)  Stephanie:
 A DUCK??? Jake, I don't get it. One for the linguist, 0 for the mathematician
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:33
9:6)  John Lawler:
 Actually, Jake, this is *not* a "get to know each other, blah about class"
 sort of thing.  This class is rather different from the other class
 where I used confer.  This class has a great many more assignments
 and concepts, and also a whole lot more people.  So we have to keep
 the blah to a very low volume level.
 
 Jill, the purpose of confer is rather different from the purpose of
 this conference.  I'm assuming you refer to the latter rather than the
 former.  It's to keep us connected so people can ask questions and
 hope to get answers.  So I can make announcements, connect with 
 people, add information, give hints, prod folks who need it, and
 so on.  It's a way to extend the classroom connection.  Anything
 you can do in the classroom you can do analogously in a class conference.
  
 Well, almost anything.
 
 Incidentally, notice that you've started an item.  You used the ENTER
 command.  This isn't a bulletin, it isn't a private message, it
 isn't merely a remark in another context, it's a brand new context
 with a new opportunity for discussion.  And *everybody* sees it.
 
 That means that you shouldn't use the ENTER command unless you
 have a new topic to announce to everybody that you think everybody
 should or would like to discuss.  If what you have to say isn't
 worth doing that, find a different way to enter it.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:07
9:7)  Jake:
 Should somebody (meaning you, Jill) freeze this item?
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:14
9:8)  John Lawler:
 Don't worry, if it needs freezing, I'll freeze it.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 01:20
9:9)  Ghislaine:
 I think confer is so we shy yet thoughtful souls can share our opinions.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:18
9:10)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 That's a VERY good reason!
- - - - -
Jan13/94 12:38
9:11)  Dale:
 I agree with Ghislaine.  Using confer is a good way to voice your opinion
 without having to be called upon like in class.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 14:58
9:12)  Larry:
 And if confronted outside the conference, you can always lie and say
 you are someone else, since no one can place a face with the name easily.
 Not that I'm recommending that ;)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 16:55
9:13)  Jake:
 Its even easier if you use a pseudonym.
 Which, btw, I find a dispicable practice.
 It's like you're not standing behind your words.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:27
9:14)  Stephanie:
 Ok, coyote
 j/k  :)
- - - - -
Jan14/94 23:47
9:15)  Jake:
 A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, SAM. (What galaxy isn't?)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 13:39
9:16)  Larry:
 Huh?????
- - - - -
Jan16/94 17:57
9:17)  Stephanie:
 1) SAM is me, Stephanie. It is much easier and shorter.
 2) Coyote was Jake's pseudo, and I found it ironic that he would say
   something like he did in 9:13
 3)I have no idea what the star wars allusion is, but that is ok too.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 22:46
9:18)  Jake:
 I no longer use the pseudo, SAM.
 That's why the SW reference.
 (Boy, I;m so smart now - compared to 3 months ago! :-) )
 maf, I no longer use _any_ pseudo.
  
- - - - -
Jan17/94 18:07
9:19)  Rob:
 How do you look back at a message that an individual person sent you?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 19:17
9:20)  Jake:
 you can type "m all" to see all your messages
 "m reverse" will give you a list of your messages (not the messages
 themselves). Once you know the number of the message, type "m #"
 The computer will show it to you, and prompt you to"r,f" etc
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:23
9:21)  Kiran:
 How do you look back at responses you have already read?  Sometimes I just
 want to see the two or three responses before the new ones just to get back 
 into context.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:25
9:22)  Stephanie:
 If you type -3 at the r,f,or pass prompt, you can see the last three
 messages. However, if there are new messages, they are included in
 the -3. That made no sense. Someone else try.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:57
9:23)  Kiran:
 Thanks, Stephanie. I tried your suggestion and it worked fine.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 20:04
9:24)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 EVERYONE. Don't forget the wonderful APPENDIX C that I made for you in
 the back of the handout! boo hoo boo hoo. It's full of great commands.
  
 Steph! good job. You got it, but remember like John already said somewhere,
 they are *responses* and not *messages*. Messages are private little
 things and responses are hooked on to items. 
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:29
9:25)  Stephanie:
 I know, I know. Geez. Semantics...in a linguistics class. Go figure.:)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:54
9:26)  Joe:
 Is anyone else having trouble actually getting VersaTerm to work?  I had to
 boot it up about fifteen times before I could finally get down to business.
 And a couple of times, when I thought it was working, it shut down after I
 had already reached the confer.  I entertained thoughts of violence while all
 this was going on.  I really enjoy wasting my time.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:00
9:27)  Jessie:
 I hear you Joe.  I just spent almost a half of an hour trying to boot 
 this thing up.  My prediction for this term... "computer abuse" 
 statistics rise over 50%.  What do you guys think?
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:02
9:28)  Larry:
 You would think that after years of using this archaic versaterm system,
 they could get it working consistently.  I hear they are changing next
 year to some other system (that will probably be just as bad).
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:07
9:29)  John Lawler:
 It's almost certainly not Versaterm that's misbehaving.  If it runs
 at all, it's just fine.  It's likely the network that is having
 trouble.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:15
9:30)  Jake:
 There are a couple of things you can do if "versaterm doesn't work"
 The easiest one is to go to the sessions menu in the finder and see if
 there's a session called "ConferU". If there is, choose it, and
 Versaterm will open right up to um-confer.
  
 Another way is to go up to the "settings" menu and choose "open conection"
 Do this until it opens a session. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:29
9:31)  Tom:
 Joe, I also hear you.  I'm just finally getting the confer system to work
 often.  What I mean is by using versa term.  C-YA.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:52
9:32)  Margaret:
 or you guys could get your own computer in the privacy of your own home...
 and not have to walk to a computing cite in the freezing cold michigan
 weather...happy computing!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:20
9:33)  Monica:
 Monica
 I also hear you Joe!  I am so sick of it taking so long to just get into 
 confer! Sometimes I even switch computers. Thanks to Jake I now know that
 there is other ways to do it.Bye!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 00:52
9:34)  Zachary:
 Loading VersaTerm is an extreme waste of time.  There must be an easier 
 way with today's technology, because this is ridiculous!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:25
9:35)  Kevin:
 Sure.  PCTie is a much easier way.  Except when the call-in number are
 busy.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 06:56
9:36)  John Lawler:
 Though of course VersaTerm only works on Macs and PC-Tie only works on
 DOS machines (IBM's, etc.).  And PC-Tie is not recommended for Unix,
 either.  It'll work, but you can't upload or download files, which
 may make a difference.  PC-Tie was designed to be used for MTS only.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:48
9:37)  Kiran:
 I agree with Zach. There must be an easier way to get on this conference. I
 just just spent 20 minutes and tried 3 computers before I could get on this
 thing.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 12:51
9:38)  Jake:
 You shoudn't have to. Ask the rescompr consultant for assistance,
 and rember you can always use the "open connection" command
 in settings, or change your session in the sessions menu.
  
 Don't be afraid of the computer:
 The worst that can happen is that it'll make you crazy :-)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 14:23
9:39)  Dale:
 Also, if the open connection doesn't work on the settings menu, you might
 have to reconfigure telnet.  Sometimes people configure it differently.
 you want to type hermes.merit.edu and click on ok.  Then go to settings
 and open connection.  That may help if all else fails.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:41
9:40)  Margaret:
 Computers are the downfall of life as we know it...Can you be jailed for
 computer-slaughter?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:54
9:41)  Jake:
 The computer is your friend.
 Happiness is mandatory.
 Obey the Computer.
 Have a nice day.
   -Cover of "Paranoia"
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:02
9:42)  Margaret:
 Jake, you didn't answer my question: Can you be jailed?????
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:46
9:43)  Jake:
 If its your computer, no.
 If its not, yes.
 And remember, Computers never forget.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:15
9:44)  Larry:
 If you really want to finish off a computer, then I suggest you
 contact Tonya Harding's bodyguard.  Ah... never mind.... he'd
 screw it up!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:13
9:45)  Zachary:
 Computers can be extremely annoying, but imagine if you still
 had to use a typewriter.  That would be even worse.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 03:00
9:46)  Geoffrey:
 I think the purpose of confer is for me to lose 15% of my grade because I'm
 computerly "special".
- - - - -
Mar01/94 10:14
9:47)  Dale:
 neqw new word "computerly [DCool!:)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 10    Jan07/94 14:26     3 lines     7 responses
Monica                     
Confer Help Item

 Monica-this whole conference idea may be fun when we learn it but
 right now it is confusing. M. Johnson-how many more of these do I have to
 write?

    7 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 14:28
10:1)  Mitchell:
 Hi there.  I know what you mean; this is my first time wrestling
 with a computer conference system.  Hang in there.  I'm sure it
 will all make sense...someday.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan07/94 21:43
10:2)  Jake:
 No!! You will never make sense of Confer! It'll drive you mad, first!
 Look at me :-)
- - - - -
Jan08/94 13:20
10:3)  Stephanie:
 Yeah.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 19:29
10:4)  Nicholas:
 No, no it won't make you mad... It'll just hurt your ego bad 'cause you'll
 think the computer is smarter than you...
- - - - -
Jan08/94 19:59
10:5)  Jake:
 It is. I know, it told me so. :-)
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:36
10:6)  John Lawler:
 As I pointed out in the previous item, when you use the ENTER
 command, you create a new item.   If every item is a confer
 help item, how are you going to find which one contains the
 information you need when you need it?
  
 This is now the Official Confer Gripe item.  You may get to
 it by saying GRIPE at Do Next?  Since nobody has asked any
 specific questions, nor proffered any useful information,
 we will maintain Item 2 as the Official Confer Help item.
 
 OK?
- - - - -
Jan19/94 12:53
10:7)  Tom:
 It is crazy that is for sure.  It is reallly tough.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 11    Jan07/94 15:16     4 lines    27 responses
Better late than Kevin             
The Language of Confer

 Confer (and many offshoots) have a language all their own.  Often
 shortened, to reduce typoing time (or typing time, if you are a
 better typist than I am).  This item is for quick answers when you
 see a term you don't understand.

   27 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 15:17
11:1)  Better late than Kevin:
 First, the terms that I do know.  L8r is easy.  Brb is usually
 be back right, and btw is by the way.  Still, it took me months to
 figure out that IMHO meant In My Humble Opinion.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 23:15
11:2)  Alana:
 I'm not too good with all this abbeviated stuff so I hope you'll all forgive 
 me if I stick to writing the long way for a while...
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:54
11:3)  Margaret:
 I'm not very skilled with the abreviations either.  I thought this conference
 was supposed to help us figure out the meanings of other languages, not give
 us new things to figure out!!!!!! :)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 21:39
11:4)  Anand:
 Awe, Margaret this computer language so called isn't that bad.  For instance,
 I just love your smiley face.  It will take a little getting used to, but I
 for one can use it to talk to other people in IRC or MTS. :-P
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:05
11:5)  Tom:
 Margaret is right.  We are forced to learn the computer lingo just to get
 help on other things.  My only previous use of a computer before college was
 a basiic class and also using it to make yearbook layouts.  By the way did
 anyone else take yearboook in high school.  I was copy writer and ad
 salesperso -n my junior year.  My senior year I was Business manager and
 assistant to the editors.  Has anyone elswe ever gone the yearbook camp. 
 It's a blast! Bye!
- - - - -
Jan21/94 15:01
11:6)  Vassoula:
 Tom, I was the ad manager of my high school's newspaper
 which also became the yearbook.  I loved it.  However, we
 didn't have to know anything about computers.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:47
11:7)  Margaret:
 Tom,  Thanks for sticking up for me...we can  all mutiny against the system
 and make them speak english...I know Melissa will help!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan22/94 18:55
11:8)  Onuka:
 Tom and Vassoula,
 I was the editorials/opinions editor for my high school paper.  I also
 wrote and did much of the layout.  I've never been to a yearbook 
 camp for obvious reasons, but I did go to a newspaper/yearbook conference
 in Columbus last November (1992).  It was a lot of fun.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 19:59
11:9)  Vassoula:
 I went to newpaper classes at State my junior year.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 20:03
11:10)  Cicely:
 Cicely:
 Tom, I also partica oopd p oops!!! I also was on my yearbook staff in
 highsc high school.  I was editor in chief.  I attended a workshop for
 m my staff in the summer of my junior year but I did' k didn't have to
 work with computers.  Hope you can read through all of my mistakes!!
- - - - -
Jan22/94 22:24
11:11)  Jake:
 CW, here's a hint about the editor.
 At do next, type 'c edit'
 Select a pico editor.
 When you're typing text, and want to edit smothing,
 push return to get to a new line, and then":e", and it will
 put you in edit mode.
 Hope that helps.
  
 Can someone out there who knows more about computers than I
 tell me what the difference between ASCII and ANSI is?
 Thanks.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 12:13
11:12)  John Lawler:
 ASCII is "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  It's the
 standard for letters and numbers and other typographic symbols.  For
 instance, capital "X" is ASCII number 88 (58 in Hexadecimal), whereas
 lowercase "x" is number 120 (78 in Hexadecimal, which shows why one uses hex
 for these number so often; there's always a difference of 20 between the
 capital and its lowercase equivalent).  Anyway, ASCII is strictly a code for
 numbering type characters.
 
 ANSI, on the other hand, is an organization, the American National Standards
 Institute, and it publishes standard codes for all sorts of things. The most
 useful one on computers, and the one that is most often meant when talking
 about "ANSI", is the code for escape sequences on screens.
 
 Confer doesn't allow unfiltered escape sequences in responses, so
 if you want to see what they look like, go ANSI at the DO NEXT? prompt.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:33
11:13)  Kiran:
 tom, I was also on the yearbook staff at my highschool, but like Vassoula
 we didn't use computers either.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 00:53
11:14)  Zachary:
 I had nothing to do with my high school yearbook.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:26
11:15)  Kevin:
 I was a photographer for the yearbook who ended up having nothing to do 
 with it (as things turned out).  
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:27
11:16)  Tom:
 Cicely,Vassoula,and Kiran:  Are any of you considering working for the 
 University yearbook.  I am hoping to work on next years yearbook.  That
 is if time permits.  I also know other people from orientation who also
 hope to work on the yearbook.  But I don't feel it will be the same!
 At are school the students had total control of the yearbook. No 
 censorship because are yearbook teacher was really cool.  But she always
 put her butt on the line for us by never asking for the mandatory O.K.
 from the high school principal and school board.  But since we won many
 awards they didn't say anything to her.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 16:08
11:17)  Tara:
 Hey Kevin, I was a photographer for our school paper and yearbook too.
 Just thought that was cool...  Do you still do any photography?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:38
11:18)  Kevin:
 I was actually a very indiscriminate photogrpher.  I still take pictures
 of things that strike my fancy, but I don't really do much else.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:46
11:19)  Monica:
 Monica Do any of you photographers still photograph?  I loved my
 photography class in high school and I miss it.  I am also really obsessed
 with taking pictures.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:35
11:20)  Vassoula:
 Tom, I don't really have the urge to wotk on the 
 yearbook here because I don't th in k it would be the same.
 Monica- I'd love to take a photography class here at
 Michigan.  If anyone knows of a good one that I being in
 LS&A could take, let me know.  Photography is fascinating,
 I'd love to take and be in pictures.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:46
11:21)  Kiran:
 I also miss my photography class from highschool. Actually I just saw a
 thing about mini-courses and they have a photography class taught in 
 South Quad's darkroom.  I don't have all the information here, but when
 I get it I would be happy to let you all know.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:45
11:22)  Margaret:
 I was going to major in photography - it was the major of the week once last
 year.  Unfortunately truck driving won out...
 Monica, how could you not miss Tincu???????  He was awsome, though I don't
 know if I would call it a class, more like a free period.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:03
11:23)  Tara:
 I still love photography, but I don't have a lot of time here to do
 much about that.  I usually do more photography at home.  I agree
 with Vassoule, itis fascinating!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 00:14
11:24)  Monica:
 Moncia Johnson
 Kiran, if you do find out about that photo class-let me know! 
 Margaret, I loved Tincu, what a fun and effortless class. I sometimes 
 go back and use the darkroom.
- - - - -
Apr26/94 16:01
11:25)  Kevin:
 Maybe it's just me, but does it strike anyone else as vaguely obscene
 that in order to know who someone is, you must $finger them.
- - - - -
Apr26/94 20:04
11:26)  John Lawler:
 Nah, it doesn't have to be obscene, Kevin; the "$" is optional.
- - - - -
Apr26/94 23:36
11:27)  Kevin:
 Whew.  I was worried for a second.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 12    Jan07/94 21:46     4 lines    56 responses
Jake                         
Jargon

 Well, I think this is the first real subject-item to crop up.
 This item is to discusse, argue and harange the oft difficult
 use of jargons in any time of hobby or job, though I'm specifically
 thinking of SFers and gamers. And I'll tell you why in just a moment.

   56 responses
- - - - -
Jan07/94 21:50
12:1)  Jake:
 OK. Now I'll tell the situation in which the genius if this item came up.
 This arguement popped up recently in the newsgroup alt.tv.babylon-5:
 Someone used the word "sentient" to refer to intelligent races, and
 someone else bitched him out cause he thought the term was "sophont."
  
 In any case, it got me to thinking of all the jargon that SF, and
 especially gaming, uses. If anyone has any ideas on the subject, please
 write 'em. I'd like to find out esp. what non-gamers/Sfers think of all
 the jargon we use.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 01:57
12:2)  Mitchell:
 Jake, the amount of jargon that we use is staggering.  Fortunately, my
 Random House Word Menu keeps me abreast of jargon.  Personally, I try to
 speak with as little jargon as possible.  SZCZ
- - - - -
Jan08/94 17:55
12:3)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Jake, I can't really comment on the SF jargon since I'm not familiar
 with it, but I just happen to have something interesting (I think) on
 jargon laying on my desk. It's from a book titled "An Introduction to
 Language" by Victoria Fromkin and Robert Rodman. Quoting:
  
 "Jargon and Argot
  
 "Practically every conceivable science, profession, trade, and occupation
 has its own set of words, some of which are considered to be "slang" and
 others "technical", depending on the status of the people using these "in"
 words. Such words are soemtimes called JARGON or ARGOT [bold in book].
 Linguistic jargon, some of which is used in this book, consists of terms
 such as phoneme, morpheme, case, lexicon, rule, style, and so on. The
 existence of argots or jargons is illustrated by the story of a seaman
 witness being cross-examined at a trial, who was asked if he knew the
 plaintiff. Indicating that he didn't know what plaintiff meant brought
 a chide from the attorney: "You mean you came into this court as a witness
 and don't know what plaintiff means?" Later the sailor was asked where he
 ws standing when the boat lurched. "Abaft the binnacle," was the reply,
 and to the attorney's questioning stare he responded: "You mean you came
 into this court and don't know where abaft the binnacle is?" endquote
  
 I think there are two meanings for jargon. In a sense, one is a good
 meaning and one "bad". As a necessary language or vocabulary for a
- - - - -
Jan08/94 17:54
12:4)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 specialized group (sci-fiers, plumbers, ballerinas, or old hippies)
 it's necessary and good (!). Jargon also is used negatively for non-sensical
 and incoherent pyschobabble. (Like that sentence.)
  
 SO, for your sci-fi activities there may be some of both, eh? Do you have
 examples of good and necessary terms? Evil and extraneous terms? I'm not
 familiar with the lingo.
 
- - - - -
Jan08/94 17:54
12:5)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 By the way, what's the difference between jargon and argot?
- - - - -
Jan08/94 19:33
12:6)  Nicholas:
 FYI, in French argot means slangand jargon means technical/specialized
 words. So I don't know if that applies in English, but I just thought I'd
 put in my 2cents...
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:05
12:7)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Nicolas, I think that is close to English. Seems I remember something
 that there is a subtle distinction that argot relates more to a
 regionalized group or cultural group of people or slang for a group of
 people. Maybe someone else can expand on that.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:08
12:8)  Jake:
 Finally, someone who has cents!!!
  
 OK, JLH, ih vae an example. A bas example, but an example none-the-less:
 When I was young(er), a friend and I were roleplaying. I forget which game,
 but it doesn;t matter. We were at my friends house, and his mother was in
 the kitchen, just the next room, cooking. At one point she walked up to us
 and commented something like she couldn;t understand a word we were saying,
 presumably because it was all "jargon,"
  I was wondering if other people have had experiences like this.
  I was also wondering if the creation of jargon is neccessary,
 unneccessary (superfluous), or just incendental.
  
 Another example is that I have been fortunate to watch the birth of
 some new jargon, being on the mailing-list for Whitewolf publications.
 The people on this list have, by unspoken consensus, agreed to use certain
 terms, abbreviations, and words to mean certain things.
  Really interesting
 Sorry for the long post.
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:11
12:9)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Like John's responses in 4:5 (item 4, response 5) when he talks about
 "tree lawn". That's probably more argot (as in regional usage) than
 slang or jargon. What do you think?
  
 CONFER TIP: If you want to go to item 4 and see response 5, you could
 type this at the Do Next? prompt:
    DN? r 4 nor
 That would take you to the RFP prompt in item 4. Then you could type
 a '4' (w/o the quotes) at the RFP prompt. Confer will then show you
 all the responses from 4 to the end. You could also type 4 ONLY, just
 to see only that one reponse.
  
 You could also type R 4:5 at the Do Next? prompt. 
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:24
12:10)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Jake, Your mother didn't know the "jargon of roleplaying" so she
 didn't understand a word you were saying. I bet you wouldn't have
 understood the "jargon of cooking" if she would have started talking
 about whip, fold, beat, pinch, saute, sear, scald, etc. either. Right?
 
 The negative connotation is the other use of jargon. You could have
 said something like, "That's right, Mother. This is the jargon of
 roleplaying, isn't it wonderful? I'd be glad to teach you when you have
 time from your cooking."
 
 No child ever said anything close to that in history. Well, maybe
 Poindexter.
 
- - - - -
Jan08/94 20:33
12:11)  Calvin:
 this jargon-n-argot thingy is hurting my noggin...
- - - - -
Jan09/94 11:51
12:12)  Laurie:
 What about patois, isn't that more about regional/cultural jargaon?
- - - - -
Jan09/94 14:00
12:13)  Larry:
 I think patois is actually considered a dialect.  Not really sure...
- - - - -
Jan09/94 21:42
12:14)  Better late than Kevin:
 I tried to explain to my dad the difference between what I would be doing
 in my film class and what I had been doing, and he couldn't make out a word.
 I suppose things need to develop jargon to save time with conversations 
 between "peers."
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:11
12:15)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Laurie, I think Larry is on target.
 AHD sez: A regional dialect. 2) Iliterate or substandard speech 3) Jargon;
 cant.
  
 Now there is the other one to talk about:  CANT, JARGON, ARGOT, PATOIS
  
 Someone else can do the AHD for CANT.
  
 Kevin, I don't think it is just to save time. We need different names
 for things or we wouldn't know what we were talking about. The plumber
 has a pipe wrench. What if the filmmaker called that little box that
 rolls the film a "pipe wrench"? 
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:50
12:16)  John Lawler:
 Interesting discussion.   Now we will illustrate by creating our
 own jargon.
 
 Every group has to make up their own conventions to communicate.  That's
 basic.  Many of these conventions are linguistic, and some of them
 involve either new words or new uses of words.
 
 If the group is large and powerful and their sets of conventions are
 sufficiently different from those of others, so that others can't
 really understand when members of the group are talking, we call it
 a LANGUAGE.
 
 If the group is small and/or weak, or if their sets of conventions are
 not sufficiently different to constitute a large barrier to understanding,
 we call it a DIALECT.
 
 If the group is socially unacceptable, and if the sets of
 conventions were *intended* to create a barrier to understanding, we call it
 an ARGOT.
 
 If the group has some technical focus, and requires special terms to
 refer to it, we call it JARGON.
 
 If the group recognizes a boundary between itself and other groups
 and uses special vocabulary items to mark this boundary, we call it
 SLANG.
 
 There.  That's not all of them, but it's enough for a start.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:12
12:17)  Jake:
 So what's the difeerence between ARGOT and SLANG. Don't they both set asside
 one group? Also, if we go by that defintion, would Yiddish in pre-WW I
 Germany be considered a dialect, language, or argot. I throw argot in there
 because Yiddish grew up historically as the social difference between the
 Jews living in the gettos and the surrounding Germans.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 17:22
12:18)  John Lawler:
 The difference, as I've laid them out here (you can get other definitions)
 is that argot is intended to mystify and mislead outsiders who might
 otherwise interfere with activities that are socially unacceptable,
 like crime.
 
 Slang is rarely that difficult to understand; it's more a matter of
 marking yourself as a member of the group by knowing what to say,
 or of excluding someone else who doesn't.
 
 Both share the characteristic that when others come to understand
 and use the special vocabulary, it loses its effectiveness and is
 replaced.
 
 As to Yiddish, it's a recognizable language, verging on dialect.
 There are hundreds of High German dialects (Mundarten), which is
 what Yiddish is, but its international nature, association with
 a non-geographically-based social group, and cultural differences
 from other German dialects give it language status.
 
 No doubt Nazis would have used less objective language about Yiddish.
 Being Jewish itself was socially unacceptable in the Third Reich.
 But Yiddish was never spoken to exclude others; many non-Jews
 speak it and Yiddish speakers are almost always polyglots.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 22:18
12:19)  Stephanie:
 Jake: I saw it somewhat differently. I thought that slang was, for example,
 generational. The Hippies had their own slang, and eventually everyone
 learned it, and it was nop longer a slang. But when I read the defn for
 ARGOT, I thought of Newspeak.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:39
12:20)  Kevin:
 Jimi, if the filmmaker called that little box that rolls the film the
 "pipe wrench," it would work just fine, as long as there were no plumbers
 around.
  
 Jargon isn't just to save time, but that's not an unimportant function.
 Forex:  much easier (and quicker) to say "trans me" than "send me a message
 over the class confer (as opposed to e-mail)." Of course, if both sides don't
 speak the same jargon, problems pop up right away.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 23:18
12:21)  Vassoula:
 I think that slang is used to create your own little
 group.  That way, no one can understand your group.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 14:24
12:22)  Dale:
 I see slang as being regional.  In a certain region of say the US, the
 slang used is most likely different than that used on the other side
 of the country.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 16:37
12:23)  Nicholas:
 I think both jargon and slang make a conversation more familiar. It seems
 that you automatically feel closer to a person who speaks the same
 'language' as you. Just an idea ... *grin*
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:40
12:24)  Stephanie:
 Definitely. *smile*
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:49
12:25)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 Kev, righto. And extend it out that "pipe wrench" is for nearly everything,
 what a mess. Jargon/language/etc is born. Sort of related, I remember this
 Herman cartoon where a cave lady and cave dude are sitting around and:
   she: what are we going to call that big leathery thing with the wings?
    he: how about PTERODACTYL?!!
   she: Are you NUTS! How about RON?
- - - - -
Jan13/94 11:33
12:26)  Ghislaine:
 I don"t understand your point on jargon.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 12:28
12:27)  Jake:
 Who's point, GT?
- - - - -
Jan13/94 21:38
12:28)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Vassoula and Dale, you're both right.  Slang is regional, but it is also
 particular to a social group, in most cases teenagers.  Slang passes in
 and out of use pretty quickly.  They publish dictionaries of slang, but
 by the time they make it into print, they're outdated.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 20:11
12:29)  Kevin:
 Jimi, I remember that cartoon.  I think I still have it somewhere.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 20:06
12:30)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 [Kevin, it just cracks me up.]
- - - - -
Jan20/94 17:06
12:31)  Margaret:
 I'm not sure if all of theses messages are overwhelming, or if it's because
 I'm not in synch with your "jargon", but I am completely lost...
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:35
12:32)  Kiran:
 me too.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 14:24
12:33)  Dale:
 Don't worry, Be happy!!./.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:39
12:34)  Karen :
 Well, this whole discussion warrants some psychobabble from an 
 almost creditable source. . .I really dislike the discipline of 
 social psychology, but this need to erect language barriers and 
 specifics ( argot, jargon, slang --whatever) is simple in-group
 out-group phenomenon. Period.
 As for the need to label and categorize. . .it is the erection of
 a consensual reality.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 08:59
12:35)  John Lawler:
 ...provided it's consensual.  You get *lots* of arguments over
 labelling and categorizing.
 
 And, yes, the language variation *is* in-group/out-group.  Now
 that you've labelled it, though, does that explain it?  And is
 it consensual? :-)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:05
12:36)  Karen :
 Prof/all:
 I think that any language is created to define the reality that the
 society/country in question is living in.
 Optimally it *is* consensual. . .but how does one account for 
 bilingual speakers . . .or those individuals who speak Say English
 or American (well, that is what it is, right?). Or if I may diverge
 more. . .we could think of some pc name as not to offend someone's
 delicate sensibilities. But the point is: vast and different groupings
 of peoples may speak the same language, but perceive rather different
 realities. . . in/out group? Ideas?
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:14
12:37)  Zachary:
 I agree fully with Karen.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 16:46
12:38)  Margaret:
 I'm not sure if this has anything to do with what is being discussed here,
 but I found it interesting...(If you don't want to read it, feel free to 
 skip it!)
    My anthro professor was lecturing on the origin of language, and 
 she presented us with two theories:
    1)That language seperated people completely.  People who speak 
 different languages are truely different types of people, and not
 the same with a different name (Jap., Amer., Spanish...).  This was 
 supported by the major deviances in the different languages, some of
 which we have run across - such as how english, for example, has past,
 present, future..., while some other language does not recognize a future
 tense...and things like that.  It was said that these differences create
 such a gap in the expected behavior of the group, that it seperates 
 different groups completely (ie: if there is no future tense, the group
 would not be inclined to look into what is *going* to happen, or something
 along those lines...)
    2) That we are born with a genetically transmitted set of "blue-
 prints" which is where we pull our language ability from.  All humans
 are born with the came abilities, and children experiment with the dif.
 concepts and throw away what isn't used by their native language. (such
 as the different time concepts mentioned above).  This is supported by
 the fact that children have more aptitude to learn numerous languages,
- - - - -
Feb02/94 16:46
12:39)  Margaret:
 and that all children basically progress in learning to speak at the same
 rate, regardless of the language.
    I was wondering what people thought of this...(sorry it is so long,
 and confusing)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 18:17
12:40)  Leonora Sanchez:
 All humans do have something innate that enables them to learn language, but
 *which* language you learn depends entirely on what language you're exposed
 to.  However, lanague is a part of culture, and a means of transmitting 
 culture to children.  I would argue against the first theory of your 
 professor, though.  It sounds like she's arguing that differences in 
 langauge *cause* differences in culture.  I've never heard any evidence
 for this (though some people argue that language influences culture).  
 THere are some universals that are found throughout languages, also.  So
 even though we see a lot of differences when looking at problem sets in
 this class, there are similarities as well.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 21:18
12:41)  John Lawler:
 It's pretty hard to distinguish language from culture.  Clearly,
 they influence each other all the time.
  
 By the way, I'm generally using problems that *do* show up differences,
 just to stretch your imaginations.  Leonora's quite right, there are
 great numbers of similarities among languages.  In fact, there's a whole
 area of linguistics called "typology" that concentrates on finding out
 the things that are true of all or most languages, and the different
 varieties there are.
 
 It's clear that language serves both to connect and to isolate us.
 Again, like culture.  There's a Krazy Kat cartoon on my office door
 (1095 Frieze) that summarizes it well.  Lemme see if I can remember
 it (I'm at home now).
 
 Krazy and Ignatz are seated at a table.  In the first frame, Krazy asks
 Ignatz "Why is lenguage?" and Ignatz replies "Lenguage is, that we
 may unda-stend each odda."  In the next frame Krazy says "Oh?  Well, can
 you unda-stend a Frenchman, or a Lepplenda, or a Oshkosher?"; Ignatz
 says "No."  In the third frame she asks "And can a
 Frenchman, or a Lepp-landa, or a Oshkosher unda-stend YOU?"; again, "No."
 In the final frame, Krazy stalks off with the parting shot "Then I would
 say that Lenguage is, that we may MIS-unda-stend each odda."
- - - - -
Feb03/94 00:41
12:42)  Karen :
 Evolutionary theorist agrees resoundingly with hypothesis #2;
 hypothesis #1 is simply not possible.
 It implies that we (as separate races----what is a race? This is 
 pretty ambiguous and arbitrary) have different cognitive mechanisms
 that would pre-determine our ability to make/conceive of reality.
 Simply not true.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 08:40
12:43)  John Lawler:
 Well, it's not orthodox theory, Karen, but it's still an empirical
 question.  Clearly such nonsense as "race" doesn't have anything
 to do with cognitive abilities, but to the extent that our cognitive
 habits are formed by our context instead of inherited (and there's
 lots of good reasons to think that's a considerable extent), such
 contextual phenomena as language could have a large effect.  In any
 event, it can't be dismissed out of hand like the racial connection can.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 19:12
12:44)  Laurie:
 I'm very new at all of this, but I have come across some similar phenomena. 
 For instance for instance In Objibway there are two genders  of nouns, (I've
 been told), animate and inanimate.  When comparitive religion scholars look
 at the Objibway world view the fact that some rock may be animate, and any
 thing that is has a spirit plenty of fun ideas emerge regarding what is holy
 to them. Also in my breif and currently stalled attempt to learn Sanskrit I
 was floored by the amount of relative/co-relative clauses the language uses. 
 A lot of the techniques used in ancient Yoga are very causal,in a sense
 relative and co- relative.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 13:45
12:45)  Karen :
 I think that I did not make myself clear; there is no possible
 biological way that our cognitive mechanisms differ culture to culture.
 If the argument is that we see different realities b/c of Cultural 
 Proximate causations, fine, count me in. There is NO WAY that our 
 underlying biological structures for speech/language acquistion can
 be responsible. Evolutionary change does not occur that quickly between
 human populations. 
- - - - -
Feb07/94 17:44
12:46)  John Lawler:
 But that's only true if you assume that we have underlying biological
 structures for speech/language acquisition.  That's far from proven;
 you might as well assume we have underlying biological structures for
 ice dancing or programming in C++.
 
 You're quite correct that our biological heritage doesn't vary from culture
 to culture (with very minor exceptions, like Asian inability to metabolize
 dairy products); but it's just not clear how much human behavior that
 heritage is responsible for.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:37
12:47)  Zachary:
 Biological heritage may not change, but the drastically different
 environments in which one is raised has profound consequences on 
 the amount of language one learns to process and at what level these
 processes take place.  Nature vs. nurture is a hot topic where there
 are no set lines, and each seems to have an affect on the other.  I
 think that despite the fact that there may not be an underlying
 biological structure which determines our ability to process language,
 environment causes a lot of disparity among peoples.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 16:04
12:48)  Kiran:
 I agree with Zach.  My parents who learned to speak English in India
 don't really distinguish between the sounds for [v] and [w].  My sister 
 and I don't have this problem because we learned to speak English in
 America. This shows that certain parts of linguistics has nothing to ]
 do with what we inherit, but instead depends on the environment in which
 we learned things.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:02
12:49)  Chad:
 Of course, there are those people who learned to speak in this country and
 still can't distinguish between certain parts of speec--regardless of
 the environment in which they were raised.  Some of it has to be biological.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:19
12:50)  Stephanie:
 Chad, I dont know what you are referring to. Please explain.(or
 anyone else)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:39
12:51)  John Lawler:
 There's a big difference between not knowing something consciously
 and not knowing it at all.  Everybody in this class knows what a
 reduced restrictive relative clause is, for instance, because they're
 so common everybody has used at least one correctly by now in class
 or on the conference.  But probably not many of you could define it,
 or even identify one.  That's a very different matter.
  
 Just as we don't have to be able to identify (or even spell) the
 triceps muscle in order to use it effectively.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:43
12:52)  Karen :
 1) The nature vs. nurture argument has been dead since the 50's
 since the introduction of intense genetic research. Anyone save a 
 social psychologist or a cultural anthropologist will tell you 
 that genotype + culture/environment = phenotype. There is a dynamic
 interaction between the two forces. . . there is really no such 
 thing as something that is all nature or all nurture. . .
 2) to presuppose that there exists no underlying genetic structures
 for language acquistion (these mechanism can be referred to as 
 blueprints) is as foolish as the belief that any complex building was 
 erected without a similar blueprint.  ..
 3) as for what Kiran says, I agree that environment to a great degree
 influences our "phenotype"-----just as growing up in a mountainous
 region affects our lung capacity-----but this is not to say that 
 lung capacity---the existence of lungs is NOT genetic. . .
 The human is provided with a blueprint, and certain mechanims taht 
 make language possible. . .the type/amount of sounds in genetically 
 predetermined---we are born with a finite set, and what we choose to 
 recognize via cultural dictation is circumstance-dependent.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:57
12:53)  John Lawler:
 Re: 2/3, there is no doubt that humans are genetically endowed with
 the ability (and indeed probably the *need*) to learn a language
 and use it.  But that statement merely says it's a feature of human
 life.  We knew that already.  It's a long, long way from that to
 assuming that there is a *specific* "genetic structure for language
 acquisition".  Why not simply think of this as one of many varieties
 of human learning?  We do a lot of that.  And there's absolutely no
 genetic evidence of such a "structure", either on the molecular or
 the geneological front.  It's merely a hypothesis that's attractive,
 but can't really be disproved because it doesn't make predictions
 that are testable.
 
 There aren't any blueprints.  There are capabilities.  And the type
 of sounds certainly is predetermined, by our production capabilities;
 but that's like saying the electromagnetic spectrum is genetic because
 we can sense a portion of it.  The number of distinctive phonemes in
 human languages varies from around 14 to almost a hundred, which is
 almost an order of magnitude.  Not very deterministic.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:56
12:54)  Karen :
 JL,
 I think that it would be difficult to deny that there <<<<<<<ARE>>>>>>>>
 mechanisms for language acquisition----that we have a propensity to 
 learn and aquire language---if it is a learned phenomenon---why do 
 we not see other species engaging inthis form of communication?
 I think that this is largely because we are in possession of a neocortex
 and other underlying biological meachinery that allows us to communicate
 orally, and this ability is INherited, NOT heritable.
 Sounds like we need to chat, huh? ;)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:04
12:55)  John Lawler:
 I really doubt we disagree, Karen; but since the exact nature of
 whatever it is we have is pretty vague at the moment, it seems
 a bit premature to start giving it a name and describing its
 properties.  That's what happened to "soul" and "spirit" and
 "instinct" and "race" and lots of other meaning-challenged words.
 
 Do we want that to happen to "propensity"? :-)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:54
12:56)  Karen :
 I need to do some homework on this. . . I have a chapter 
 written by Pinker, and will get back to you.
 Seems that there is a body of literature already out there---
 I'll let you know.
 But you are right---we are probably of the same camp (you are too
 educated not to appreciate the value of an evolutionary framework),
 and we are perhaps only squabbling over semantics. . .


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 13    Jan09/94 11:57     5 lines    19 responses
Laurie                    
POSTURAL IDIOMS

 I'm very interested in compiling a list of what I call "postural idioms"
 Because I have been a Hatha Yoga instructor for 15 years I have spent
 years considering how Posture and language connect.  I believe we tell
 much more in our posturing than we do with our words. SO want to help
 by adding some "postural idioms" to my list?

   19 responses
- - - - -
Jan09/94 12:01
13:1)  Laurie:
 OK here 's the beginning of the list, just to give you the idea.
 You're a pain in the   ...neck.
 I bent over backward for her.
 She carries the world  on her shoulders.
  So  the idea is phases that use body parts to express emotional or 
 conceptual ideas.
- - - - -
Jan09/94 13:45
13:2)  Mitchell:
 How's this: he's on my leg; they get into my hair.  If I come up with any
 others, I'll write them here.  10-Q
- - - - -
Jan09/94 14:02
13:3)  Larry:
 Break a leg!  Give 'em a hand!
- - - - -
Jan09/94 18:16
13:4)  Jake:
 What you are talking about here (sorry for the asside) is more than just
 idiom. It's metaphore - the way we unconsciously percieve reality based
 on the lamguage we speak. But you're right, LB, posture does have
 a lot of influence on language, since all language, no matter how "deep",
 is tied to the fact that our only true perceptions are physical. All other
 concepts stem from physical reality.
  
- - - - -
Jan09/94 22:51
13:5)  Tara:
 Hey Jake, that sounds interesting and confusing. Could you give a specific 
 example?? I don't know that might be hard, but it's hard to grasp the concept
 that "our only true perceptions are physical."   Hmm...maybe it's not as
 profound as it sounds?!
- - - - -
Jan10/94 11:22
13:6)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 To put your best foot/leg forward.
 Find your footing/legs.
 Shake a leg.
 Leg and leg.
 Neck and neck.
 To give a leg up.
 Without a leg to stand on.
 Pain in the arse.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 12:54
13:7)  John Lawler:
 You're all right.  Laurie, a couple of books...
 
 Lakoff and Johnson, _Metaphors We Live By_
 
 Johnson, _The Body in the Mind_
 
 Niven and Pournelle, _The Mote in God's Eye_ (check out the
 Motie Mediators)
 
 We're all equipped with a human body, and that's about it for
 standard equipment.  Everything else we can refer to when we
 communicate is a matter of individual experience, and that varies
 all over the lot.  So we use body metaphors *a lot*.  We have
 to.  We have no choice.
- - - - -
Jan10/94 20:39
13:8)  Tara:
 I'm pulling out my hair.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:05
13:9)  Anand:
 How about: Butterflies in my stomach.  Is that considered a postural idiom. 
 I'm not sure?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 14:28
13:10)  Dale:
 There are no fish in the aquarium for me to eat!?  Nooo, how about
 My head is pounding or I'm putting my hair back?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 15:24
13:11)  Anand:
 I've got more! HA! How about?
 You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours
 eye for an eye
 shivers up my spine
 and the question for the day
 is foul mouth considered a postural idiom?
- - - - -
Jan13/94 07:16
13:12)  Laurie:
 Thanks guys, this is fun for me, I just can't get my "hands" on all the
 mental concepts floating around my head!
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:19
13:13)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 {This morning in the shower....]
   "Don't blow your top [head].
   "She's so mad steam is coming out her ears."
   "Can't put my finger on it right now."
- - - - -
Jan13/94 11:38
13:14)  Ghislaine:
 how about this one... couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 12:24
13:15)  Rob:
 Could T tooth and nail, elbow room, and I have to hand it to you also be
 postual idioms?
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:00
13:16)  Larry:
 Watch your back!
 Slap on the wrist!
 Give an arm and a leg!
 Spineless wimp!
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:46
13:17)  Joe:
 Get a grip!
 Wracking my brain!
 Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong!
 A ew real shot in the arm!
- - - - -
Jan14/94 15:39
13:18)  Dawn:
 I'm not sure if someone already said this because the list was so 
 long it was hard to keep track...pulling my leg, in the blink of an
 eye
- - - - -
Jan14/94 20:08
13:19)  Rob:
 Wait there's more: keep your chin up, knuckle down, nosee in the air, and
 tongue twister.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 14    Jan11/94 12:45     1 line      1 response 
Jennifer                  
attn: jill

 hey jill.  what's up?  love the pictures!  love, j

    1 response
- - - - -
Jan11/94 14:58
14:1)  John Lawler:
 Hi, Jennifer.  You have started an item.  Congratulations.
 Jill will see it eventually, and so will everybody else.
 If you want to send a message *just* to Jill, try "T"
 instead of "E".
 
 No doubt you wouldn't have done this after I mentioned
 it in class, but you did it right before class.  For now,
 though, I'll just freeze this so that nobody can respond,
 and let it be an example of what happens when you use the
 "Enter" command when you really should use "Transmit".


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 15    Jan11/94 15:41    13 lines    46 responses
John Lawler                        
Problem 5: Swahili

   This is the item for discussion of the Swahili problem that was
 handed out today.  You are requested to hand in no more than one
 page of analysis on it for Thursday.  How you organize it is up
 to you.  Be clear and concise and as complete as you can.
 Oh, and *definitely* be legible.
 
   There are two typos on the problem.  One of them is a mere
 misspelling of a root, which appears once.  The other is a
 mistake in a gloss, and it appears twice.  That one will be
 harder to spot, because when it's corrected, there's a hole
 in one of the paradigms.  Just so.
 
   Any questions?

   46 responses
- - - - -
Jan11/94 18:33
15:1)  Jake:
 Well, it took me 40-50 minutes to get done analyzing this, and I had a few
 bugs, but that sorted things out.
 
 This is how i aproached the problem. Tell me if there's a better way: First,
 I isolated all the roots and suffixes. This wasn't hard, just tedius: When I
 went to isolate a root, for example, I'd write down all the words and glosses
 for it, like, say "write," find the prevalent common factor.
 
 After that was done, it was a question of going through and checking to make
 sure that each word fit into the pattern. When they all fit (ie, I found the
 bugs) I was done with the analysis.
 
 Now, I see one primary fault with this method: it will only find what I'm
 looking for; that is, I won't find anything else implicit in the words and
 their comparison. I don't think this is so much a problem now, but I didn't
 think it was a highly effective method: what if John L. were to give us a
 problem "blind" (with some of the parts missing). I doubt my method would be
 very efficacious then.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 18:53
15:2)  Stephanie:
 But it worked for this one, so I say go with it.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 19:46
15:3)  John Lawler:
 In general, if it works, it works. It may not work every time, but we're
 not concerned about niceties of theory as much as effective analytic
 thought.
 
 I'm interested, Jake.  Did you find some variation in the paradigms?
 
 And what did you suppose might have been the significance of the
 gap between the first set of examples and the second?
- - - - -
Jan11/94 21:35
15:4)  Mitchell:
 I haven't begun working on the Swahili problem yet, but here's what I plan
 to do to approach this: (Incidentally, anyone reading this who wishes to
 use this strategy is welcome to do so.  All I ask is that I be given 
 appropriate acknowledgement.)  Instead of Jake, who went for the Swahili
 words them selves, I'm going to organize the words according to their
 english translations.  Glancing over the problem now, I see four ways to
 group them: according to root verb, verb tense, number and person of subject
 and number and person of direct object (if necessary); once they're
 categorized, they can be grouped together; common elements can be found, and
 applied to other words, repeating the process until all the elements and
 discrepancies can be found.  Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:14
15:5)  Anand:
 I'm sorry Jake but I had many problems with this worksheet.  For example, why
 their an extra "w" in numbers 21,22,23.  I guess, I'm going to have to look
 at it a little more closer! But, I like your new method, and I'll try it and
 see how it goes.  Thanks!
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:45
15:6)  Jake:
 Well, the "w" you are refering to is not (as far as I know) a mistake.
 It has a dfinite meaning.
  
 John:
  I was wondering about that. I noticed #25 contains an irregularity
 (though it might be a mistake, on my part or John's - I'll go back
 and check). Though that might be the paradigm change you're talking about.
  
 SPOILER, but I gotta ask: (if I'm not supposed to do this, I'm sorry
 John, but it's easier to get forgiveness than permission):
  I assumed that the "an" that always comes before "dika" is a part
 of that root, and not a seperate paradigm (right use of the word?),
 because in #9 it occurs by itself, without an object.
 SPOILER OVER
  
 Also, thanks for clearing me up on the word "paradigm."
 I've always prounced it "par-a-dig-im" not "par-a-dIm"
- - - - -
Jan12/94 00:46
15:7)  Mitchell:
 I've worked out the Swahili problem as best I could.  I'm afraid i'm going
 to have to side with Anand regarding the "w" situation, Jake.  Further,
 #24, as near as I can figure, is fraught with errors.  However, I'm pretty
 sure that "andika" is the correct root.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 08:07
15:8)  John Lawler:
 You got it, Jake (and Mitchell).  The simple root typo is that "andika"
 (which *is* a root) is misspelled as "ankika" once.
 
 There's still the other one, which creates a hole in one paradigm.
 
 By the way, the "g" in "paradigm" isn't there in the noun, but it *is*
 in the adjectival form: "paradigmatic" /pEr@dIgmAE'D@k/, as close as you
 can get to English phonemic notation on the computer screen.  Not unlike
 the "b" in thumb/thimble, or the "n" in hymn/hymnal.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 09:00
15:9)  Jake:
 Sorry, Mitchell. It's the "mw" combination that has meaning.
  
 John:
  Another typo occurs on problem #11, and then there's a problem on
 #18. Right?
  
 Also, I figured out the paradigm change that occurs in #s 21-24.
 Actaually, I already knew it, but had to look at it askance.
 I even know (or think I know) the rule for it.
  
 Further question: #25 seems to have an irregularity in it, though I
 figure it's just a rule change: i.e., according to the rules I had,
 #25 should read "mwsoma" instead of "mwasoma"
- - - - -
Jan12/94 15:27
15:10)  Jake:
 Another way to state the problem with #25:
 It must be a specific rule that we do not have other examples of.
 I'm unwilling to accept that it's a mistake or typo.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 16:14
15:11)  Mitchell:
 Acknowledged, Jake.  I suppose I could make an exception (using an asterisk)
 for the lone rule.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:00
15:12)  Sarah:
 I'm so glad I took a break from my analysis and got into the confer
 because I was agonyzing over the "ankika" forever.I thought it was an
 irregular future tence! Boy, am I relieved to know that it's only a 
 spello! Thanx guys!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:00
15:13)  Tara:
 Jake, I agree with you, there seem to be addtional typos on problem #11
 and #18.  But problem #25 works with my analyzation as spelled.  
 However I am still confused with the 'w's on probs. #21-24.  So anyone
 who has some insight on these problems please speak up!   :)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:00
15:14)  Jake:
 Two questions, and I don't know where else to put 'em:
 what are the particles of the word called: like "andika" or "me-"
 Are they morphines?
  
 Also, since we'll be talking about pronunciation sometime on this
 confer, do you (John) have an ASCII phonetic alphabet you want us to
 use?
 (If not, I'll be happy to make one up :-) )
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:03
15:15)  Jake:
 OK: clue: the "extra" "w"s in #21-24 are part of the radical "mw-"
 and are an irregular form of another partical, "m-"
  
 Hm, that was quite a hint, wasn't it?
  
 Sorry, not irregular: they follow a very specific and regular rule.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 18:11
15:16)  Lee:
 I agree with Jake, I came to the same conclusion.  I also have found the typo
 in #11 and a problem with the gloss in #18 as well as a typo in #24.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:12
15:17)  Larry:
 Problems I have found:
 -  #11 is missing an 'a'.
 -  #18 in the subject
 -  all of those w's that everyone can seem to explain but me in 21-25.
 -  #24 seems all screwed up (although I'm sure I'm the one screwed up)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:20
15:18)  Sarah:
 I also agree with Jake on problems #11 and #18. But Lee, I don't see
 a typo in #24.  Doesn't it work in the same way as #25?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 19:53
15:19)  Kory:
 I guess everyone has #'s 11 and 18 the only discussion seems to be
 with 21-25          
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:37
15:20)  Matt:
 I have a problem with #1.  I thought AN was HE/SHE.  Does anyone else have an
 answer?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:55
15:21)  John Lawler:
 Here's a hint:
 
   We have two forms of the indefinite article in English.
   One is "a" and the other is "an".  I call them two different
   forms of one word, rather than two different words.  Why?
   And what determines when we use one and when we use another?
 
   If you can answer that, you may understand what's going on with
   (e.g.) nos 21-25. 
 
 As for some of the other cases, there's nothing wrong with no. 11.
 But no. 18 *is* a typo.  And one I'd missed.  It should be "me"
 as the object instead of "us".  Good for you.
 
 Finally, consider the possibility that there might be several different
 tenses in Swahili that both translate into the English present.  Nos.
 24 and 25 contain that tense marker, and not the one that's elsewhere
 translated as present tense.
 
 See how useful the conference can be?  :-)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 20:57
15:22)  Nicholas:
 I agree there seems to be a problem with #11 (missing a) and possibly *18!
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:06
15:23)  Sarah:
 Prof. Lawler, as for the problems#21 through #24, I guessed that "w'
 precedes verbs that start with vowel sounds, are you saying I was right?
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:08
15:24)  John Lawler:
 With the third person singular object marking, yes.  Not in general,
 though.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:46
15:25)  Matt:
 I don't know the names for the tenses of knows and have just.  Thank you for
 the help Prof. Lawler.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 22:03
15:26)  Jake:
 Well, for names, "knows" is simple present (in english),
 and "have just" is ... can we call it immediate past?
 Sounds good to me.
  
 Actaully, thanks John, I had misinterpreted that. Now I have to go back
 and change my write-up. *SIGH* :-)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 22:09
15:27)  Matt:
 Thanks for the help Jake.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:17
15:28)  John Lawler:
 "immediate past" is fine, so is "recent perfective".  They're
 just names.  Though somewhat descriptive ones.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:23
15:29)  Jake:
 Sorry for the asside, but I just have to:
 John's response reminded me of this joke:
 What's the opposite of progress?
 A: Congress
  
 Actually, in latin, they are related. "congress" means to agree.
 I believe. Someone correct me.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 01:05
15:30)  John P:
 i'm just wondering why -soma isn't -somwa?  i guess it's not
 pronunciation-oriented.  hmph.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 01:21
15:31)  Henry:
 I still do not understand why there is no "a" after "an" in number 11.
 Looking at #6 with the same root, I can think of only one possibility.
 This is that the object (him/her vs. you) must somehow eliminate the "a"
 in "na"
              -Thirsty for answers 
- - - - -
Jan13/94 03:53
15:32)  Anand:
 If you want to know, I think I sort of found something very interesting?
 According to grammar rules, case is the form or position of a noun or
 pronoun that indicates its relation to other words in a sentence.  English 
 only has three cases : subjective, objective, and possessive.  If the noun is
 acting as a subject its subjective, and as an object it's objective.  
 In the first person, we use "I" as subjective and "me" as objective.  
 Similarily, in Swahili, if ni- was being used subjectively in the form
 of "I", then we would also use ni- as objectively for "me."  I'm still trying
 to figure this out, since I have poor grammer, but once I get it all solved
 I'll let you guys know.  (John, can you help me with this little theory)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:31
15:33)  John Lawler:
 Case is a property of nominal words, like nouns and pronouns.  It's not
 a property of affixes.  And ni- is an affix, not a word.  English is
 the sort of language that tends to use words instead of morphological
 changes, and there are stil remnants of case around (though *only* on
 pronouns, not nouns).  But you can't really call ni- as being one case
 or another, since it's not a word.
 
 As to how the paradigms get filled out, there's no predicting, really.
 
 Consider the following:
 
   I     you     he    she   it   we    they
   me    you     him   her   it   us    them
   my    your    his   her   its  our   their
   mine  yours   his   hers  its  ours  theirs
 
 Now can anybody predict how *that* would come out?  Paradigms almost
 always have partial regularities, but almost never are wholly regular.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 12:33
15:34)  Jake:
 I thought our pronouns scame to us from the Scandinavian languages?
 Yej=I, du=you, etc.
 Someone told me that once, don;t know if it's true.
  
 Well, since its almost classtime, I guess this is unneccessary, but:
 HK: I firmly believe #11 is a typo, that there should be an a after
 the n.
 But I could be wrong.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:49
15:35)  John Lawler:
 They didn't *come* from Scandinavian languages, it's just that
 English is a Germanic language, and so are the Scandinavian languages.
 
 The he/him/her stuff may well be borrowed from Scandinavian, though.
 But not all of them.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 21:47
15:36)  Tara:
 About the latin word 'congress', agree could be an acceptable translation.
 Breaking down the word, the root is gradior, gradi, gressus which means to
 walk or go.  And then the con- means together.  Put those 2 together and you
 literally get - walk together, go together- come together, meet.  But these
 all do portray the idea of agreeing.  I like it, but it's not completely
 literal.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 13:18
15:37)  Jake:
 Thanks.
 I thought that's was what is was after I posted.
 And "progress" would mean to "go through," right?
 So congress and progress aren't really opposites, as the joke implies.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:17
15:38)  Larry:
 Depends if you're Democrat or Republican as to if congress really
 means progress :)
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:31
15:39)  Stephanie:
 <laughing> <everyone here is looking at me>
- - - - -
Jan18/94 22:36
15:40)  Tara:
 Good one Larry.  :)  Really I don't remember the literal translation for
 progress, because I just translate it 'progress'.  But I did remeber that 
 'con' can also mean 'against' giving congress a translation of 'fight'.
 hmmm...  
- - - - -
Jan19/94 07:39
15:41)  John Lawler:
 Actually it's contra- that means 'against'.  Con- means 'with' or 'together'.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 22:34
15:42)  Tara:
 Geeze, thanks John.  I should have stopped while I was ahead.  :)
 ....that reminds me a joke, but it's not very funny, so I'll spare you
 all and let Larry make the jokes.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:51
15:43)  Larry:
 Coolness!
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:46
15:44)  Kevin:
 I thought this problem was fairly easy.  :)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 15:53
15:45)  Henry:
 Yes, but enjoyable.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 19:49
15:46)  Kevin:
 My favorite part was pronouncing all the "mw" parts ... or trying to.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 16    Jan11/94 21:46    11 lines    90 responses
Mitchell              
Word Forum

 Words are the backbone of language and linguistics.  So saying, I christen
 this new item devoted to words; in particular, I would like people to share
 words that could be useful but are obscure, oddities in language, and words
 that might appear on standardized tests (this forum, in essence, would 
 serve a study aid).  :::getting out the Dom Perignon::: !!!CRASH!!!  
 Here is my first contribution, and it's a lu-lu:
 Chargoggaggoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg: the name of a lake near
 Webster, Massachusetts.  It's a native name which translates: you fish on
 your side, I fish on mine, no one fishes in the middle (Incidentally, this
 45-behemoth is the 5th longest place name in the world.)  And, yes, I can
 say it.

   90 responses
- - - - -
Jan11/94 21:49
16:1)  Mitchell:
 Correction: I meant to say "this 45-letter behemoth"  Sorry.
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:11
16:2)  Anand:
 Incidentally, can you please break down each segment of the word, so maybe if
 possible I can even say it.  I've never heard of such a long word, and the
 anything closest to that would be Supercalafragilisticespiolodoshish, well I
 think that's the right spelling.  Sorry I don't  have a dictionary handy to
 me as Mitchell!
- - - - -
Jan11/94 22:44
16:3)  Kevin:
 My favorite unusual/occasionally useful words I always find when I'm
 looking up something else.  My favorite so far is "ennead," meaning a group
 of nine.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 00:51
16:4)  Mitchell:
 Amand, the dictionary that would have supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
 along with hundreds of words as long or longer than that is Mrs. Byrne's
 Dictionary of Unusual, Obscure, and Preposterous Words--a most peculiar
 and amazing volume.  I have a copy of it.  If you'd like to see it some-
 time let me know.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 08:13
16:5)  John Lawler:
 Well, of course, the lake's name isn't English, but rather a Native American
 language (there are lots in the area), maybe Micmac?  So we're all on
 our own on how it *ought* to be pronounced.  Which is a different question
 from either (a) how the folks in Webster pronounce it, and (b) how
 the Micmacs (or whoever) pronounce(d) it.  Typical English problem.
 
 Mrs. Byrne's is a lovely book.  If you like that one, check out
 "An Exaltation of Larks".
 
 "Ennead" is a numerological term, and simply consists of the Greek
 word for "nine" (ennea).
 
 "Supercalif...etc." is a made-up word (either by the author of M. Poppins
 or whoever wrote the music for the Disney movie, dunno which).  Means
 nothing but sounds impressive.  In fact, if it does mean anything, it
 means "this sounds impressive, so it must *be* impressive."
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:18
16:6)  Tara:
 Sorry, I don't know of any particular words yet, but (sorry for the little
 interruption) Prof. Lawler just got me thinking of something and I don't
 think it is worthy of the "item" statis.  I was wondering where different
 accents fit into the whole language world.  Like in different parts of
 our country English is pronounced differently, but it is the same language.
 Is this just a different dialect?  It does kind of create boundries of our
 language.  Also, do particular accents ever have enough force to change
 the spelling of a word?  
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:26
16:7)  Jake:
 Accents are systematic changes in pronounciation that do not yet
 deserve "dialect" status. IMHO, my item (#12) would be a perfect
 place for this conversation.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 17:46
16:8)  Stephanie:
 Tara: Ask Lawler about the Northern Cities Chain Shift. (I think). It has
 to do with that "CAWFEE TAWK" think.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:01
16:9)  John Lawler:
 Eeeehhh.  Lots of things to comment on.  Pronunciations will differ from
 place to place; the more isolated people are, the more their talk will
 vary.  It's much the same thing as speciation in biology.  When it becomes
 a problem for communication, it begins to become a new language.  Again,
 just like speciation imposing a bar to breeding.
 
 "Dialect" is a pretty vague term.  The common wisdom is that "A language
 is a dialect with an army and a navy."  In the U.S., we don't really 
 understand about dialects; we're too new on the continent.  In England,
 you can find more speech variation in almost any hundred square miles
 than in the entire North American continent.  They've been there a
 *long* time.
 
 The differences between New York, Boston, Boca Raton, and Chicago, though
 *we* notice them, would pass almost unnoticed in England.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:43
16:10)  Mitchell:
 Here's a word that you may find useful (found in the Book of Lists: 90's
 Edition): eyeservice--work done only when the boss is watching.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 22:04
16:11)  Jake:
 Then I guess since I don't have a "boss" in my job, what I do, or rather
 don't do, could be called "noservice"
 Pun intended. :-)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:23
16:12)  John P:
 word for the hour:   nubilous
 the gloss is 'cloudy or obscured'
  :)
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:24
16:13)  Jake:
 sure that's not "nebulous"?
 Means the same thing.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:26
16:14)  John P:
 nope... nubilous
 
 (i was looking for words that started with nubi-)
 
- - - - -
Jan13/94 09:22
16:15)  Jimi Lee Haswell:
 John P, how about nubi-sweater? ;-)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:08
16:16)  Larry:
 Actually (not that I want a cookie or anything) I could guess nubilous from
 my Spanish background.  Here are some great words from my word-of-the-day
 calendar:  Vicissitudiness, anopisthographic, sinistral, soporific.  Any
 ideas... (put down your dictionaries)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 16:57
16:17)  Jake:
 How about torpor, chrysthalis, Antideluvian, coterie, etc.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 18:43
16:18)  John P:
 well, jimi, i s'pose that that's fair.  sort of like
 nubi-ski boots.  i *meant* to say that i was looking for dictionary-entry
 words starting with nubi-.
 
 jake:  that etc. implies that there is a logical order to that list that
 we can follow... :)
 
 how 'bout pulchritudinous?
 
- - - - -
Jan13/94 23:50
16:19)  Mitchell:
 This is what I was hoping this word forum would be.  I recognize anti-
 deluvian (very old, as in before the Great Flood), though the others don't
 look familiar.  Here's a sesquipedalian to know: sesquipedalian, which means
 "a really long word", not to be confused with hippopotomonstrosesquipedalian
 which means "a really REALLY long word."
- - - - -
Jan14/94 00:59
16:20)  John Lawler:
 Even more fun is to take "sesquipedelian", which means "fifty-legged".
- - - - -
Jan14/94 13:20
16:21)  Jake:
 No, JP2, there's no specific order. Just meant there's more I was
 saving for later. How about: impergium, savant, delphian...
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:34
16:22)  Stephanie:
 I have always been fond of sanguine, choleric, melancholic, and, my fave,
 phlegmatic
- - - - -
Jan14/94 16:21
16:23)  Mitchell:
 Let's see; savant means wise one, while Stephanie's four words remind
 me of the Four Humours (not a 50's rock band, but a theory of medieval
 medicine).  How close am I, Stephanie?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 13:26
16:24)  John P:
 go steph (and mitchell).  not only are those the four humors, but
 there also the names of the movements of a symphonic piece by carl
 nielsen, who's a way cool composer!  :)
 
- - - - -
Jan16/94 17:58
16:25)  Stephanie:
 SZCZ: You are correct, they are the four humors.
 John: I have not heard that symphony, but it sounds very modern, and I
 am not a fan of the dissonance of modern music. If it is otherwise,
 cool.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 17:52
16:26)  John P:
 hmm... i ask you to tread lightly, steph... i'm a composition major in the
 music school, and vast, generalized blowoffs like that are very painful to
 those of us who are trying to undo the damage that the composers of the
 fifties and the sixties did.  i *personally* think that nielsen is *very*
 tonal, but tastes vary.  it's worth hearing, anyway.  esa-pekka salonen
 conducts it well.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 20:20
16:27)  Kevin:
 So, John, you're saying that you feel the composers of the 50s and 60s were
 enervating?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:33
16:28)  Larry:
 Somebody get some real music please!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:35
16:29)  Jake:
 Like what, LL. "Smashing Punmpkins" perchance. Or perhaps that delightful
 group "Ice-T" ?
 (Please note sarcasm.) :-)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:40
16:30)  Larry:
 How about some R&B?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:29
16:31)  Stephanie:
 Sorry John Pulite 2. I did not mean that at all,In fact, SOME 20th century
 music is really good. In particular, I am not a fan of Bartok. Having been
 forced to play a lot of Bartok did not help our...shall I say...relationship
 any. I am sorry if I offended you any. When you say he is tonal, what do you
 mean?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 17:10
16:32)  John P:
 all i'm saying, kevin, is that the composers of the fifties and sixties
 succeeded in angering and alienating a large portion of the then and
 future patrons of contemporary classical music.  which has caused many
 problems for their unwilling scion.
 
 steph, tonal means 'following the standard conventions of western
 harmony.'  to put it simply, tonal music often 'sounds like it makes more
 sense' to persons who are only trained in more traditional
 classical/romantic/baroque styles, where as people who are not
 western-tonal (like bartok, who i think is amazing) often can sound
 'strange' and 'wrong' to the unfamiliar listener, or at least identifiably
 different.  that's just a very rough definition, and one which i don't
 particularly espouse, but since this is a linguistics board and not a
 music board, it's functional enough.  :)
 
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:11
16:33)  Alana:
 You know, I read somewhere (in Newsweek actually), that listening to Mozart
 makes one temporarily smarter.  Now that might be something to think about
 bafore attempting linguistics homework, eh?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:57
16:34)  John Lawler:
 You may have something there, Alana.  Though I'd think Bach is closer
 to what's going in Turkish.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 14:46
16:35)  Joe:
 Music?  Frank Zappa.  Case closed.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:15
16:36)  Jake:
 Isn't he dead?
 Yep, case closed ;-)
- - - - -
Jan19/94 16:10
16:37)  Monica:
 Monica
 After reading all of this talk about music I felt I should inform you all
 of a great class I took here at UofM about music.  It's Music 341 with 
 Prof. Whiting and it covers a vast range of music.  Very interesting and 
 not too hard(hey I got a B+).  You can all think about it for future
 classes, it's 3 Humanities credits.Bye
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:32
16:38)  Stephanie:
 John: I understnad now, and I think the "4 humors" piece is probably my
 style. Bartok is really a composer who is either loved or hated. I havent met
 anyone in the middle. I think my biggest problem with it is that it makes me
 feel angry and tense, well, most of it does anyway. Lawler: Bach, definitely.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 22:20
16:39)  Jessie:
 Steph, I couldn't agree more!  :)
- - - - -
Jan19/94 22:37
16:40)  Tara:
 Monica, I was going to take that music class this semester, but I dropped
 it for this class instead.  sigh!            =)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 00:59
16:41)  Mitchell:
 Gee, and I thought this was the WORD forum.  My mistake.  Anyway, here's
 a word to get us on the right track: aglet, a word Jerry Seinfeld ought
 to know: it means "the plain or ornamental covering on the end of a
 shoelace.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 07:46
16:42)  John Lawler:
 I *think* it's spelled "aiglet", but I'm (uncharacteristically) not sure.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:52
16:43)  Larry:
 How about "ruck"?
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:01
16:44)  Joe:
 How about "higgledy-piggledy"?  Incidentally, what is this item about again?
 Is there a way to re-read the initial statement that began an item?  I tried
 "VIEW ITEM," seemingly remembering that it worked the last time I was
 involved in a conference, but it said that I needed some sort of permission
 to do this.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:02
16:45)  Larry:
 Try 'item n' (where 'n' is the number of the item)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:03
16:46)  Jessie:
 Hey Larry, I know what a ruck is!!  It's a rugby term.  It's when 
 the ball is loose, and everyone beats the hell out of everyone else
 to get it! :P  ;P  ;)
 See ya
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:08
16:47)  John Lawler:
 To see *only* the item text, go "text" at the "Respond, Forget, or Pass:"
 prompt.  Or you can say "item n nor" ("nor" is short for "noresponses",
 which means not to show any responses, just item text).
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:41
16:48)  Larry:
 Jessie, sounds cool to me.  Where do I sign up?  There is another
 definition though... although I can't remember what it is.  Jess, maybe
 I should see if anyone knows what in the hell a "BINK" is...
- - - - -
Jan20/94 21:58
16:49)  Mitchell:
 Nope, John, it's spelled "aglet" so sez the AHD.  The offiicial definition:
 "a tag or metal sheath on the end of a lace, cord, or ribbon to 
 facilitate its passing through eyelet holes"
- - - - -
Jan20/94 22:16
16:50)  Lida:
 believe it or not Mitchell, aglet was an "everyday" word in my household.
 It seems as though as kids, my sister and I were always breaking them
 and Mom would have to think up creatine ways to fix them or get the 
 shoelace to keep from totally unravelling.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 11:30
16:51)  Larry:
 Have you ever heard of wetting the shoelace with your tongue???  Worked
 in my house!
- - - - -
Jan21/94 19:08
16:52)  Lida:
 That was used pretty often I just found out something interesting today.  In
 Spain tacos are "bad" words, but in Mexico tacos are food.  They don't eat
 tacos in Spain, and they don't use the word tacos in Mexico for "bad" words.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 20:27
16:53)  Lee:
 Mitchell & John: You're both right.  According to my Webster's New World
 Dictionary, both spellings are correct.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:28
16:54)  Kevin:
 Oh, if only we had standardized spelling in this language....
- - - - -
Jan24/94 07:00
16:55)  John Lawler:
 Oh, we do have standardized spelling.  It's just that the standards
 were determined for another language (Middle English).  During most
 of the Middle English period, there was no printing, so people spelled
 things the way they sounded to them, i.e, pretty variably.  But printing
 standardized the spelling, *just* as the language was changing from
 Middle English (i.e, Chaucer) to Early Modern English (i.e, Shakespeare).
 
 There's a *big* difference between those two languages.  And our modern
 English spelling is essentially Middle English, even though the pronunciation
 and grammar have changed radically.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 09:55
16:56)  Jessie:
 Larry, let me see...  Wasn't it an acronym or something?...
 Something like Barbaric, Inebriated, kNife weilding, Killer?
 No, that sounds like someone we know...???!!! :)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:33
16:57)  Larry:
 Something like that, Jessie!
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:35
16:58)  Mitchell:
 Here's a new word: weltanschauung (a comprehensive philosophy of the
 world or of human life)  In what sentence or situtation would a word
 like this prove useful?
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:54
16:59)  Rob:
 I couldn't make it to dinner last night because I was studying
 weltanschauung.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:00
16:60)  John Lawler:
 It usually refers to an individual's personal philosophy. Although if you
 quote it in German (instead of just saying "personal philosophy"), you're
 also staking a claim to being either extremely well-educated or (if that is
 doubted) pretentious.
 
 So make *sure* you know about philosophy (and preferably can speak German)
 before you use the word.  For one thing, it's not easy for an English speaker
 to pronounce, and, in the nature of the word, the speaker has to pronounce it
 properly: the vowels are all easy, but the /w/ is [v], the "sch" is [s^], and
 you say *both* the /au/ (rhymes with "cow") *and* the "ung" (/U/ as in
 "hook") that comes right after.  The stress is on the first syllable, with a
 secondary stress on /s^au/.
 
 Remember, you asked.  This is, I realize, more than anyone would want to know
 about Weltanschauung.  However, answering questions is a prominent part of my
 *own* Weltanschauung.  :-)
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:18
16:61)  Stephanie:
 <tee hee> so I've noticed.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 22:08
16:62)  Jake:
 So, John, are you well-educated or just pretentious? :-)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 10:56
16:63)  Stephanie:
 hey hey hey
- - - - -
Jan30/94 10:56
16:64)  John Lawler:
 Pretension is in the ear of the beholder.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 11:08
16:65)  Stephanie:
 good answer! <clap clap clap>
- - - - -
Jan30/94 15:21
16:66)  Jake:
 Yeah, but prehensile is in the tail...
- - - - -
Jan31/94 17:33
16:67)  Mitchell:
 Here's a new word from the SZCZ files: verisimilitude (the quality of
 appearing to be true or real).  Now, who might verisimilitude apply to
 ???  (And nobody say Professor Lawler: he IS real!)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 19:27
16:68)  Tara:
 How 'bout a statue with verisimilitude?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:46
16:69)  Kevin:
 I used an interesting word the other day.  I was trying to explain how
 my roommate can hear a piece of music and then play it.  What I said was, 
 "He just earballs it.  I don't know how."  
- - - - -
Apr18/94 03:13
16:70)  Jake:
 Interseting. He wanted to use the word "eyeball" for what he does with
 music. Actually, if we were to follow the pattern of making a verb
 with "eyeball" he should have said "earlobe" or "eardrum" :-)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 07:42
16:71)  John Lawler:
 I've heard (and said) "out of eyeshot", same rationale.  Go for it, folks.
 It's *your* language and the morphology is there to exploit.  Like liberties,
 derivations and inflections that aren't regularly exercised can easily be
 lost.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 10:06
16:72)  Joe:
 One of my favorite words of the year:  Iconoclasm!  It reminds me of
 someone picking up my desk and tipping it over while I'm working on it.
 I would have no choice but to respect such a person. Smash the idols, y'all!
- - - - -
Apr18/94 10:15
16:73)  Margaret:
 I have a habit of making up words...like when I know the meaning of the
 prefix, and the root, and the suffix, and put together they make sense,
 but people look at me like I'm crazy...(granted, sometimes the word
 makes no sense, but it slips out before I can catch it! :-)    )
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:54
16:74)  Jennifer:
 Personally, I have the habit of shortening words.  My friends know that my
 favorite word is "naush", which is short for nauseaus.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 17:49
16:75)  Tom:
 Jennifer, I have the same habit and it justs gets on my parents nerves.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 19:49
16:76)  Anand:
 Joe, you reformist you! I hope noone actuall did that to you!
 Someone in my hall did that to me last semester, unfortunately!
- - - - -
Apr18/94 19:51
16:77)  Kevin:
 Over the past few years, I've created a few portmanteau words (thank you,
 Lewis Carroll) of my own.  Unfortunately, I've suddenly forgotten them all
 (Stage fright, I suppose).  My current favorite "new"-old word(s) is
 "sillystupid" which means stupid by way of silly.  It's a word I use a lot.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 20:41
16:78)  Joe:
 Lewis Carroll was pretty much a MASTER at this sort of thing.
 And no one tipped my table over!  But the idea...What gall it would take
 to do that...Definitely a cool person who would do it.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 03:12
16:79)  Jake:
 Sometimes I forget the English word for something and use the German.
 (This usually happens after class or listening to German music). I also 
 have a couple of words I've completely made up and use when I'm speaking 
 to myself, like "ana" for no.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 09:49
16:80)  Stephanie:
 Lately (especially) I have been slipping in Italian words when
 i mean the English...regardless of whether or not I had
 been in class or listing to music or something. Guess I am 
 jut learning it better than I had expected. Still dreaming in
 it too...it s very strange...and I make up a lot of words for
 myslef...and phrases...and then they becoem standard with
 me and my friends
- - - - -
Apr19/94 10:11
16:81)  Mitul:
 One of my friends from Connecticut always refers to something that is
 easy or simple as "cake".  That word has caught on with almost everyone
 we know.  I often find myself using words I'd never heard of before I
 came here.  I guess this school really does expose you to many different
 forms of language.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 11:33
16:82)  Rob:
 Has anyone ever noticed that the word phoenetic is not spelled the way it
 osunds?  Just something to ponder about.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 14:24
16:83)  Tom:
 Mitual, I also have been using that phrase a lot.  But I'm from Michigan.
 I've been using that phrase for as long as I can remember.  I also find 
 myself occasionally using Japanese teenage slang instead of American slang.
 They only word that caught on about year ago is "Skoy" which is the same
 as the American slang word "cool" or "straight."
- - - - -
Apr22/94 10:31
16:84)  Dawn:
 mitul
 I've always used it
- - - - -
Apr24/94 15:42
16:85)  Kevin:
 I knew someone once who used the word "bogus" to mean "really good wow that's
 just so wonderful it's great." The word has confused me ever since.
- - - - -
May08/94 22:57
16:86)  Kevin:
 I just remembered a portmanteau word I sometimes use:  severious.
  
 Also, I think I'll share with you a sentence I just got from the book
 I'm currently reading:  BY THE TIME I GET TO NASHVILLE.  It's a doozy.
  
  
 Between the posters, and beneath the grime and moss Diego swore was watching
 him, was scrawled faded instances of sprayed graffiti, none of which were
 very legible, and none of which he figured would have made any sense anyway,
 especially the one that shakily proclaimed "Elvis Lives!", since the only
 Elvis he knew had been Elvis Lee Bob Billy Sessoms, a chunky Missouri
 bank robber of little repute who had been shot down by an irate barber in
 Laredo when he, Elvis, had attempted to rob the barber's shop since the
 bank had been closed, it being Sunday at the time.
- - - - -
May09/94 10:41
16:87)  John Lawler:
 For extra credit, display the tree diagram for this sentence.
- - - - -
May09/94 17:14
16:88)  Kevin:
 I'll diagram this sentence if you'll diagram a certain sentence from 
 THE WAR BETWEEN THE PITIFUL TEACHERS AND THE SPLENDID KIDS -- it's a page
 long.
- - - - -
Jun14/94 13:41
16:89)  Lisa:
 I hope you are still reading these.  If not I guess I will never get the
 answers to my questions.  Anyhow, speaking of languages and inserting words
 of the wrong language, my daddy does that all the time. He speaks a lot of
 Spanglish at home, but my relatives get angry in Mexico because he won't talk
 straight Spanish and sometimes they don't understand him. In his case, it
 isn't because he forgets a word in one language or the other, he just will
 switch words on and off without giving it a second thought. I speak bad
 Spanish, but my relatives said "at least you don't talk like your dad. Here's
 a simple example: "Ustedes se van en two diferentes aviones?" He does it all
 the time, sometimes with more strategic words so that people don't understand
 him.  Anyhow, he and one of my sisters came down because my grandma is real
 sick.  Well, that was my "vacation".  But that's not my question.  I was
 wondering, professer Lawler, if you had ever studied about stutterers.  My
 Tio Emilio stutters and I was examining the different sounds he makes that
 seem to divert his stuttering.  For instance, his "K" sounds he pronounces
 kind of like, how do you call it, like "explosives" but I know that's not the
 word.  Kind of like that tribe in Africa, the Kung or whatever.  Anyhow, plus
 he leaves space before and after the sound, like a-K-i, for aqui.  And his
 S's he pronounces, well it sounds like that symbol that always came on the 10
- - - - -
Jun14/94 13:41
16:90)  Lisa:
 point quizzes...It seems like it was some sort of lateral fricative, maybe
 palatal.  I don't know, I always had a hard time remembering because I
 couldn't pronounce it.  Anyhow, making these sounds seems to reduce the
 amount of stuttering he does.  (or maybe he just has a lisp, too, I don't
 know).  Anyhow, I was just wondering what you know about this.  Also, isn't
 uncommon for a person who's 60 years old to still be stuttering?  He didn't
 have no education, so maybe they usually school you out of it in elementary
 or something, I don't know.  But just for curiosity sake, I thought I'd ask
 you.  Thank you for any light you shed on the subject.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 17    Jan12/94 01:35     7 lines     1 response 
Matt                     
Howdy everbody

 Hi everyone.  I'm not sure what I'm doing.  I'm working here at 1:30 AM
 trying to figure this ah... interesting system of communication out.  I
 didn't have any messages so I decided to send a message to... whoever gets
 it.  Write me back so that I know that my vain struggle isn't in vain, or
 something like that.
 
 

    1 response
- - - - -
Jan12/94 08:17
17:1)  John Lawler:
 Congratulations, Matt.  You, too, have managed to start an item.
 Rather than send a message.  You can in fact send a message to
 everybody if you want to -- though I don't recommend it.  But
 this is what happens when one uses the wrong term to think (and
 talk) about something.
 
 I'll freeze this one too, but could I ask people, please, *not*
 to use the "Enter" command to "send a message" or anything else,
 UNLESS you have a topic to propose for group discussion.  I really
 don't think that reassuring Matt that his "vain struggle isn't in
 vain" is sufficiently general to require its own item.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 18    Jan12/94 21:17     6 lines    17 responses
Sarah                         
Mother and "ma" sounds

 Hi everybody! I wish to here what you guys think about the sound of the 
 word 'mother' in different languages.  As far as I know, lots of 
 languages have "ma"sound for the word 'mother'.   'Umma'is 'mom' in 
 Korean.  Chinese, French, English, and some other languages also say
 mother with the 'ma' sound.  Could this be a coinsidence or is there
 a specific reason?  What do you think?

   17 responses
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:41
18:1)  Anand:
 As you know , many languages have sprung from the ancient more classical
 languages such as Sanskrit, Greek, Latin and many others.  With trade going
 on bet between Mesopotamia, central India, and various other civilizations,
 I'm sure many common words may have been exchanged.  In Hindi, a language
 sprung from Sanskrit, we say mother as "mami" with the characteristic "ma"
 sound in the beginning.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 21:48
18:2)  Mitchell:
 In the book Browser's Book of Beginnings, author Charles Panati gives 
 the word "mother" as an example of the proliferation of the Indo-European
 Language family; among the examples he cites: sanskrit (mata) greek (meter)
 Latin (mater) Italian (madre) French (mere) German (Mutter) and Russian
 (mat'); to which I add another--Polish (matka) (BTW, I know some Polish;
 you might guess that with a name like Szczepanczyk.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 22:07
18:3)  Jake:
 Arabic is "uum" (rough transliteration), but Arabic is not Indoeuropean.
 Chinese is "ma", and same.
  
 However, I doubt these coincidences have any meaning other than being
 coincidence. Of course, that's just my opinion.
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:22
18:4)  John Lawler:
 Well, it's exercised a lot of people, Jake.  It turns out that in
 language after language, there's an /m/ in a word for 'mother'.
 Quite often it's a children's word, like "mommy".
 
 Best explanation I know (and it may not explain everything) is that
 it's usually one of the first words the child learns to say, and
 *those* almost always contain an /m/.  Why?  Because (as you will
 learn when you master phonetics, or, even, who nows, right now) /m/
 is a *labial* sound, that is to say, it uses the lips.  And the
 lips are the strongest part of the vocal tract by far in a baby.
 They're used for nursing and they get a lot of exercise.  The
 tongue, by contrast, is pretty undeveloped.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 08:03
18:5)  Calvin:
 In the chinese dialect that I speak in, we use sim for mother.  When I speak
 Vietnamese with my mom, I still address her as sim instead of ma or me (which
 are both used in Vietnamese).  I think it's because sim was perhaps the 1st
 word that I've learn and it's been embedded in my head since.  Interestinlgy,
 my youngest sister calls her mom "mommy" instead of sim or ma or me.  She
 learned that as a baby.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:11
18:6)  Larry:
 The weird thing with Japanese (I think it's Japanese) is that 'ma' not 
 only means mother, but also 3 other nouns depending on tone.  One is 
 'school'... anyone know the rest.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:54
18:7)  John Lawler:
 It's Chinese, not Japanese.  Japanese doesn't have tones.
 
 There are 4 tones in Mandarin (the official language of the PRC), more
 in some other languages (8 in Cantonese, I think).
 
 In Mandarin, 'ma' with a high level tone means 'mother', with a high rising
 tone it means 'hemp', with low dipping tone it means 'horse', and
 with a high falling tone it means 'scold'.  The words are not related
 to one another.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 21:28
18:8)  Leonora Sanchez:
 There is one exception that I know to the large number of languages that
 use "m" in their word for "mother".  In (Soviet) Georgian, the word for
 "mother" is "deda".  The word for father is "mama".  
 THis is a truly weird fact in the world's languages.  YOu can amaze (or
 scare off) your friends with this information,
- - - - -
Jan13/94 22:25
18:9)  Vassoula:
 I agree that the first sound that a child can make
 starts with the "m" sound.  It's their best gurgles.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 23:21
18:10)  Sarah:
 Thanx guys for all your info! I think I'm beginning to really like this 
 confer deal. I agree with Vassoula in that 'ma' sound is probably the 
 first thing a baby can say.  Not only words meaning mother has the 'ma'
 sounds, but also some of the baby words for food also has the 'ma'sound
 too. At least in Korean it does, as in 'mam ma' Would this explain the
 concept?
- - - - -
Jan14/94 13:22
18:11)  Jake:
 Somehow, this got eaten by the void of netland, but...
 In Ojibwe, it's: nmamaam.
 Talk about your labial sounds!
- - - - -
Jan14/94 15:54
18:12)  Dawn:
 On the /m/ sound being one of the first syllables a child can use
 I saw something about that on an episode of some show where parents
 ask a doctor if their child is normal.  The doctor said that /da/
 is normally the first sound children make and so fathers shouldn't
 really get so excited about "dada".  "Mama" is a more developed sound.
 I have no idea if that was relavent but I just thought of it.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 18:56
18:13)  Lee:
 In Hebrew, the commonly used term for mother is pronounced e-mah (long e).
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:25
18:14)  Karen :
 From the mouth of the evolutionary theorist:
 When there is such a significant amount of cross-cultural phenomenon
 on a subjeuct such as this, socio-biologists search for a genetic basis---
 in this case, evolved mechanisms for language acquisition.
 This easily accounts for why in any language we find a term such as 
 MA, Mom, Madre, Mere, etc---that exists as a nomative device for what is the
 most important thing in an infant's life----the primary care giver.
 If, had our evolutionary history been different, Dads would have been named
 with MMMMMMM's.
 I think taht with any effort at all, we would find rich data that would 
 buttress this theory: words taht are important for survival, that are readily
 visual and cognitively recognizable will be the easiest words for children
 learning language to say.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 21:04
18:15)  Laurie:
 Words for survival?  I don't know, my thirteen year old son learned the wore
 word no early on as most do, but after a horrible accident where he touched
 our our wood stove and badly burning himself he switched to using HOT for no
 for several months.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:18
18:16)  Zachary:
 A close encounter with a hot stove will do wonders for learning what
 is hot, and what is no.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 02:55
18:17)  Kory:
 Peace, Zachary


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 19    Jan12/94 23:02     1 line    139 responses
Jill                      
Computer game nostalgia (was: swahili)

 hi, everyone-is it me or did you find the homework confusing-jill

  139 responses
- - - - -
Jan12/94 23:24
19:1)  John Lawler:
 You can go "R 15 NOR" and enter your question as a response, Jill.
 Though maybe enough people will be interested to make this a topic
 for discussion.  Let's see.  I won't freeze this one yet.
- - - - -
Jan13/94 03:05
19:2)  Anand:
 Jill, I my name's Andy.  The homework is a little confusing, but to 
 tell you the truth I had a great time trying to decipher this puzzle.
 It was like an extra-curricular activity.  Hell, I think I know swahili know.
 Let's see [nina(swahili)], I'm trying to (I know swahili).  But, there is 
 one particular item in this conference, item 15, which I think can give you
 much help.  Other than that, keep cracking away: :-)
- - - - -
Jan13/94 15:19
19:3)  Jessie:
 Jill, strangely enough, I liked it.  I just treated it like I would have
 treated a crossword puzzle, and, voila! it was done.  Don't get me wrong,
 I'm not the kind of person that enjoys studying (or any other kind of work
 for that matter), but for some odd reason, I really have enjoyed the work
 so far.  Good luck on the rest of the assignments!  See ya!
- - - - -
Jan13/94 17:00
19:4)  Jake:
 Well, being a linguistics major, I'm probably weird anyways, but I
 enjoyed this problem immensely. It took my a grand total of maybe an hour
 and a half, and I enjoyed every minute of it :-)
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:20
19:5)  Larry:
 I think you're laying that on a bit thick, Jake :)
- - - - -
Jan14/94 14:37
19:6)  Stephanie:
 Took me six or so hours, and I was up until 2:30, but it was inda fun.
 Larry- I agree
- - - - -
Jan14/94 15:42
19:7)  Anand:
 Finally, Stephanie, I thought I was the only one having so much difficulty
 with this homework.  It took me three hours, and although I did enjoy it,
 I thought my method may have been too meticulously set up.  I'm trying to 
 become like Jake, using paradigms and tables and that sorta thing, but I
 think I'll still try my meticulous method once more.  Hey, maybe its like 
 Math, the more you practice, the better you become!!!
- - - - -
Jan14/94 16:13
19:8)  John Lawler:
 Indeed it is.  And like math, you take it in small steps first
 until you get a good feel for how it works, then you can skip
 steps and go faster.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 16:55
19:9)  Nicholas:
 Personally I LOVED it. It's like working out a logic puzzle... Sorry be we
 engineers have a somewhat different concept of fun... *grin* :)
- - - - -
Jan14/94 22:43
19:10)  Samuel:
 I coudn't agree more with all of you.  Jim, although the assingments take 
 some time, but if you treat them as word puzzles (as Jessie mentioned)
 you will definetely enjoy it.\
 By the way the discussion of Swahili was really helpful.  As things
 get harder, helping each other in the conference will be a must.  Keep it up!
- - - - -
Jan14/94 23:50
19:11)  Jake:
 I'm not exaggerating!! And I got the blood stains to prove it!!
- - - - -
Jan16/94 13:43
19:12)  Larry:
 Again, Jake,...Huh????????
- - - - -
Jan16/94 14:31
19:13)  Jake:
 Only for Those Who Know, LL.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:32
19:14)  Larry:
 I guess.....
- - - - -
Jan16/94 18:00
19:15)  Stephanie:
 And like Math, it was fun. (had to get my two cents in there too)
 Nicolas- I agree, though I am not an engineer.
 (I am a bit frightened by computers, which pretty much rules out 
 engineering)
- - - - -
Jan17/94 20:26
19:16)  Kevin:
 A friend of mine is frightened by computers.  When he was younger, he was
 attacked by a pack of roving TRS-80s.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 21:24
19:17)  Mitchell:
 LOL, Kevin.  (That means Laughing Out Loud, which is what I did when I 
 read your remark.)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:28
19:18)  Dale:
 Speaking of old computer like items.  Does anyone remember those old
 Texas Instruments calculaters with the red led numbers?  I happened to
 come across one this weekend when I went home.  I think it is like
 a museum artifact now or something.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:33
19:19)  Jake:
 The computer told me to tell you not to talk that way about its
 noble ancestors. ;)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:34
19:20)  Larry:
 Guys... get out more...please...:)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:37
19:21)  Jake:
 Defintion of a computer-geek (that is me, btw):
 Anyone who'd pass up going out on a date because it's take away from
 hi/her time on the computer.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:41
19:22)  Larry:
 Pathetic (Please note sarcasm.) :-)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:46
19:23)  Jake:
 Yep.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:53
19:24)  Dale:
 Hey I get out.  I'm just saying that this thing was old and I'm going
 to be late for class. C-ya.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:30
19:25)  Stephanie:
 I used to have a TI computer when I was little. It h0ooked up to
 the tv screen, and had no monitor. It had this wicked game called
 PARSEC, and we bought a little voice box for it, and it would tell
 you what was going on.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:58
19:26)  Dawn:
 Does anyone remember atari or commodores?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 17:02
19:27)  Jake:
 SAM:Yes, parcec, Yeeeaaahhhaaaa!!!!!!!!
 DO: Yes and yes. Had both. On nights, when the moon is new, I long for it
 so, and I just have to howl at the moon on a midnight vigil...
 Oops, wrong confer ;)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:12
19:28)  Alana:
 ah yes, space invaders...
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:16
19:29)  Vassoula:
 I remember having the TI scientific calculator and thinking
 how awesome it was until the graphing calculator came along.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:21
19:30)  Jake:
 Heh, I believe I'm one of the last two people in the world who
 knows how to use a HP programmable calculator.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:58
19:31)  John Lawler:
 Oh, they still use them in the Engin school.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 22:17
19:32)  Tara:
 Hey Stephanie, we played PARSEC with that little voice box.  Did you ever
 play HUNT THE WUMPUS?  I never really understood the point of that one.
 Anyway, so much for those old memories.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 11:29
19:33)  Gail:
 I have to agree with Jesse.  I have found the work in this clsass to be fun
 so  far.  Especially when you have it all figured out.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:06
19:34)  Tom:
 Yes classs is alot of fun once you believe that you have finally figured
 something out. ing out.  I believe I finally actually figured something out
 on the Latin believe
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:36
19:35)  Larry:
 I had the innovative Commodore 64.  Actually, I brought it out of 
 retirement over break.  Better though was that I brought my intellivision
 to school two years ago.  It finally succumbed to old age and died.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:30
19:36)  Lida:
 My family's atari died about two years ago.  We actually still used
 it every once in a while until then (that's when the most 
 complicated electronic machine in the house was the microwave).  
 The last time I saw it was at the end of the driveway, sitting in
 a big black bag, I can still hear the screams.... I MISS MY ATARI!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 16:21
19:37)  Rob:
 Does anybody remember Caleco or some game system that started with a C?  I
 also have fond memories of playing Astrosmash and Lock -n- Chase on my 
 Intellivision.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 16:48
19:38)  Jake:
 I just barely remember that first, classic, video-game system of all
 time: ping-pong. I can remember sitting in my grandfathers room
 (where the TV was) and watching my sister and brother play.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:34
19:39)  Stephanie:
 HUNT THE WUMPUS was sooooo cool. I don't remember all about it, but
 the basic premise remains. And I loved the asteroid belt in parsec...
 used to look like flying jelly blobs, and they had to be hit three
 times to kill them. I always had a problem refueling, though. Crashed
 into the gground several times.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 22:35
19:40)  Jessie:
 I loved both PARSEC and HUNT THE WUMPUS!  I thought that I was
 the only person in the world with a TI.  Did any of you ever
 play ALPINER? It was that really cool game where you climb the
 different mountains, and things like birds would fly by and 
 drop eggs on your head.  I played those games for years till
 I upgraded to a commodore 64.  Now that was a powerful computer!
 (sarcasm, of course) But it did have some great games like 
 SUMMER GAMES, WINTER GAMES, and what about ARCHON?? That was
 the coolest chess game ever.  Sorry it was so long
 See ya!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 22:43
19:41)  Tara:
 Refueling- BAD
 Winter games - GOOD
   ah,  Good shot pilot!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 23:39
19:42)  Henry:
 Jake:  My grandparents had that video game thing as well.  There was
 ping-pong and tennis.  Basically, you just controlled a little rectangle
 and tried to win.  It was really cool.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 01:03
19:43)  Mitchell:
 My godfather, a businessman, showed me his new TI calculator in 1979.  
 (Giggle)  I had Atari 2600, ColecoVision, and the Commodore 64.  I
 didn't get Intellivision because my cousin already had it.  Maybe
 we ought to start an old video game support group or organization.  Howza
 bout it?
- - - - -
Jan20/94 02:48
19:44)  Kory:
 All I have to say is "Intellivision ruled!"
- - - - -
Jan20/94 07:50
19:45)  John Lawler:
 Tut, tut (English click sounds :-)
 
 Doesn't anybody here remember the Colossal Cave?  350-point Adventure,
 the first game of all?  How about Star War (no, not "Star Wars"... that was
 a decade later on film)?  I remember playing those 25 years ago on
 gigantic state-of-the-art room-filling computers.  And hacking up Adventure
 code in CP/M ten years later.  *Sigh*
- - - - -
Jan20/94 10:50
19:46)  Kevin:
 If I wasn't -6 at the time, I probably would have remembered them.  When I
 think of early computer games, I'm afraid the earliest I remember are
 Hunt The Wumpus in particular, and LOGO (the language/whatever) in general.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:55
19:47)  Larry:
 Lock-n-Chase was an awesome game.  And I agree with Jessie-- Archon and
 Summer Games for the Commodore ruled!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:05
19:48)  Joe:
 There was also an Archon II, which I probably still have somewhere (in
 addition to the first).  It's been so long since I played them, I don't even
 remember how the second one differed from the first. But I do remember that
 they were great.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:07
19:49)  Jessie:
 Joe, I'll tell you how they differed.  In Archon II there were different
 plains.  Monsters that used fire were stronger on the fire plain, water
 creatures were stronger on the water plain, etc.
 Does that refresh your memory?
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:13
19:50)  Joe:
 ...It's all coming back to me now.  Thanks.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:40
19:51)  Tom:
 Yes Had an Atari system.  My favorite games were Tank,Bowling,Space invaders.
 Those who believe that summer games was great is correct.  Back in the day
 it was the way to spend a relaxing rainy summer day.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:42
19:52)  Larry:
 I like ATARI's common theme to all of its games-- "Shoot at the blob"!
- - - - -
Jan20/94 17:14
19:53)  Vassoula:
 Tom, I remember playing those games too.  They were
 great!  I could play those for hours and it kept
 peace between my brother and me.  I also loved
 playing baseball and poker on intellivision.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 19:22
19:54)  Sean:
 Intellivision was great, but when I actually got my DAD hooked on Poker
 and Blackjack, he became a master at beating the computer and thought that
 he was unstoppable. About two months after he stopped playing because he was
 just "too good", he went to Vegas and lost a couple of hundred dollars in
 what had to be record time (from what I hear). The moral of the story is:
 don't let your father get hooked on that Streetfighter game for Super
 Nintendo - he'll go to Detroit with a chip on his shoulder and you'll never
 hear of or see him again...
- - - - -
Jan20/94 19:45
19:55)  Stephanie:
 What about that TI game that was kinda like PacMan but you had to make the
 chain links...that was fun too.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:14
19:56)  Henry:
 All of you folks should try "Rebel Assault" on CD ROM.  It will
 allow you to stop reminiscing about this outdated stuff and get
 on with the action that video games are meant for.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:23
19:57)  Rob:
 Another game that I really liked was Demon Attack on the Atari system.  I
 always got a kick out of the noise the demons made when you hit them.  There
 was also Demon Attack for the Intellivision, but it did not have the cool
 sounds that Atari did.  
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:28
19:58)  Monica:
 Moncia Johnson
 I like Mitchell had an Atari 2600. I only liked two games though-Frogger
 and space invaders. I always seem to get hooked on one or two games and
 the rest do not seem to matter. Do any of you ever play Tretras(sorry
 spelling may be wrong) on game boy?  I am lucky I do not have game boy
 because I'd never put it down.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 22:00
19:59)  Mitchell:
 If you mean Tetris, Monica, then yes, I've played it.  I'm pretty
 proficient at it (not meaning to brag, of course)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 22:25
19:60)  Lida:
 Tetris is awsome! I just have to turn off the "music" It gets pretty
 anoying after a while.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 08:14
19:61)  John Lawler:
 I see we'll have to start a new Swahili item.  This one is
 definitely on track as computer game nostalgia.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 11:32
19:62)  Larry:
 Demon Atack, Astrosmash, Baseball, Football, Hockey... definitely
 Intellivision was the master of technology!
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:16
19:63)  Tom:
 Does anyone else have a video game freak for a roommate.  One of my two
 roommat -es is hooked on Sega.  His favorite game is Bill Walsh College
 Football. He will play any one who will challenge him it appears.  He put a
 sign in my scholarship house saying he would destroy any challengers.  Today
 I will get chance at him.  He also claims to have put up a few signs in
 Markley stating that he was willing to take on all challengers.  He says he
 only been beat twice.  One day me and my other roommate got frustrated with
 him we
  pranked him telling him Bill wlsh wanted him to become hi Sega football head
 coach.  Sorry I took up so much space.  But I think this story is hilarious. 
 Bye.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:45
19:64)  John P:
 archon and archon ii were way fun.  :)
 
- - - - -
Jan22/94 19:03
19:65)  Onuka:
 Tom,
 A guy I know is a total computer freak.  His typical day is to get up at 
 4 pm after ditching classes, turn on the computer and play various games 
 until 7 or 8 in the morning.  Then he goes to sleep for a few hours.  
 It's even worse now that he has not only a CD ROM but also Mortal Kombat 
 (or however you spell it).  Bye the way, Atari kicked ass.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 16:35
19:66)  Tara:
 I know someone who has two TV's in his room, right beside eachother, one for
 watching TV and the other for simultaneuosly playing SEGA.  hmmmm......
 The tank game on ATARI was great!! Our family only had a TI, but on weekends
 my mom would bring home an Atari from her work.  -She was a teacher....still,
 I wonder why they'd have an atari at school.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:41
19:67)  Kiran:
 Monica, I love Tetris, too, and I'm pretty good at it.  But you are right
 about having a gameboy, I never put it down. The other game I've just started
 to play is Super Mario Kart for NES.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:10
19:68)  Zachary:
 I loved Atari, Intellivision, Nintendo, and now love Sega.  I do have a 
 Sega nut for a roommate, and he will challenge anyone in just about any
 game.  The greatest experience I have had recently was with four-way play
 on Sega.  Both NHL '94 and Gauntlet IV have become my favorites when 
 played among four people.  If you have access, I suggest that you try it.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:31
19:69)  Kevin:
 The Archons were great.  When we had the ATARI 2600, my dad (for some
 unknown reason) discovered that he liked Yar's Revenge (and nothing
 else).  He was the best at it.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 12:44
19:70)  Mitchell:
 Yar's Revenge!  I haven;t heard that name in A LONG TIME!!!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 14:27
19:71)  Dale:
 I think the best game for the ATARI 2600 was Decathalon.  I went 
 through many a joystick playing that game.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 14:49
19:72)  Dawn:
 my dad and I used to have pac-man face offs
- - - - -
Jan24/94 17:38
19:73)  Mitchell:
 Thinking back, I wish I had a chance to play (I think the name of it was)
 Demons and Diamonds (Is this right, or is it Demon Diamonds?)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 18:24
19:74)  Henry:
 Swahili or Demons- Take your pick.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:39
19:75)  Kevin:
 I'll take demons any day.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:52
19:76)  Monica:
 Monica
 I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that Sega is a very masculing
 opps masculine thing or are there some female Sega addicts out there too?
 I just know that it really annoys me when all of my male friends get
 together and have Sega days.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:54
19:77)  Kevin:
 I have no idea whether Sega is masculine or feminine.  <shrug>
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:15
19:78)  Gail:
 Definately masculine.  I agree Monica, guys are the only Sega addicts that I 
 know.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:39
19:79)  Sarah:
 Is there any body else who knows almost nothing about computer games but me?
 Let's get together and play some Monopoly! :>
 By the way, John, Could you change the item title so nobody has to read it
 for any Swahili stuff?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:42
19:80)  Kevin:
 Maybe we can find some games in Swahili, and fulfill both the original
 and new directions of this item.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:43
19:81)  John Lawler:
 Good idea, Sarah.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:32
19:82)  Sarah:
 Why don't we create a "Swahili Monopoly" or something like that? :)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:34
19:83)  Henry:
 Castle Wolfenstein the best until the came out with Wolf 3-D.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:43
19:84)  Zachary:
 I agree totally with Henry, Wolf 3-D is a very realistic game, and fun 
 at that.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:36
19:85)  Dawn:
 although I got on this a little late for the sega masculinity thing, I
 must definitely agree [D. The guys in the room next to me have
 sega football tournaments.  They've hook ed  the sound up to their stero
 and now we alway s  know when they get a touchdown.  It shakkes my room.
 I have to say I'm definitelty for board games.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 22:44
19:86)  Mitchell:
 What kind of board games do you like, Dawn?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:35
19:87)  Kory:
 There is nothing wrong with SEGA!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:46
19:88)  Larry:
 Except those annoying commercials!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 12:12
19:89)  Tom:
 That is right Kory as long as you don't abuse it.  I hate the Sega
 commercials with John Madden.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:00
19:90)  Stephanie:
 Sega has COMMERCIALS!!!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:27
19:91)  Jessie:
 But you have to admit that the one with Joe Montana seeing the 
 "Reggie White!" inkblots is pretty amusing.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 00:19
19:92)  Monica:
 Monica
 I, like many, love board games. I work at the Ann Arbor "YMCA" child care
 and I love playing board games with the kids.They're only 5 so monopoly 
 is a bit above their level. However, we do get some great games of "Sorry"
 "Chutes and Ladders",and "Candyland" going!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:31
19:93)  John Lawler:
 Sorry is a great game.  Kids can beat grownups or vice versa and it's
 exciting for both.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:24
19:94)  Stephanie:
 I am a fan of Go to the Head of the Class.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 11:09
19:95)  Lee:
 I remember that game--except I never liked having my playing pieces be
 those stupid dorky stand up kids.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 18:56
19:96)  Stephanie:
 Dorky!?!?!?! Gotta love Cowboy bob, and Skippy. Now HE was a babe :)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:07
19:97)  Lee:
 Were those their real names, or just your pet names for 'em?
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:08
19:98)  Dale:
 I liked mousetrap because if taught us kids to entrap and torture
 little animals.  Just kidding:) ! That's what one of my ex-roommates
 said about the game. Crazy huh?
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:40
19:99)  Stephanie:
 Skippy was REALLY in my set. I remember a cowboy kid, but I cant
 remember their names. There was also Sally, and Mother and Father
 could play too. 
 The adult questions are actualkly REALLY HARD
- - - - -
Jan28/94 16:06
19:100)  Anand:
 John, How do you get good at Scrabble. Is there a *pattern* (Hint, Hint) to 
 t game?  I'm trying to beat my one friend, and so far I've lost $20.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 16:50
19:101)  John Lawler:
 Gee, I've never played Scrabble for Dollars.  I'm more partial
 to Fictionary.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 17:20
19:102)  Mitchell:
 Anand, I once read a book called (i think the title of it was) The
 Complete Scrabble Player's Guide (or something like that).  You may
 want to check the U's libraries--they may have the book.  I'd like to
 play scrabble, though I haven't played in a while (and by "a while" I
 mean several years).  And this week is rather bad for me.  
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:34
19:103)  Rob:
 I think the trick to Scrabble is to memorize a list of obscure two letter
 words.  Then you can lay down words parallel to a word on the board.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:37
19:104)  Mitchell:
 I happen to have a list of all 66 acceptable 2-letter Scrabble words.
 Let me know if you're interested.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:58
19:105)  Rob:
 The one I always like to use is aa, a basaltic lava flow occuring in Hawaii.
 My seconde favorite is oe, a whirlwind.  But, if you run out of vowels may I
 suggest cwm, a valley.  I don't know if it is the Scrabble's players
 dictionary but it is one of the few words in the English language that do not
 use a,e,i,o,u or y.  The reason for this has to do with its origin from the
 Welsh language.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 15:46
19:106)  Mitchell:
 Close, Rob.  Cwm is the ONLY word in the English language that doesn't
 use any vowels (including y).  My last name comes close, though :-)
 BTW, it's pronounced [koom].
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:20
19:107)  Stephanie:
 I always get stuck with all the consonants like x and q and z, and I 
 never have any vowels. I have played for cash, but somehow, I always
 seem to lose. I am much fonder of trivial pursuit. It is definitely'funner'
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:49
19:108)  Larry:
 I was playing 'Scrabble' against a friend of mine over break.  After she
 said she couldn't make a word, I told her let me see the letters out of
 disbelief.  She had q,j,v,x,p and some other useless letters.  I couldn't 
 find a word for her eiter, even only a two-letter word.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 18:37
19:109)  Mitchell:
 Trivial Pursuit!  That's the story of my life.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 21:31
19:110)  Dale:
 I never play  scrabble with my mom and dad because my mom is a MA in
 linguistics and she's got this massive vocabulary.  My dad and I always
 have to look up the words that she makes and the words are usually right.
 I always get the weird letters like S.A.M.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 23:46
19:111)  John P:
 ai is my favorite two-letter scrabble word.  it's a variant of sloth...
 either two-toed or three-toed.  i can't imagine for money, though.  i'll
 have to keep that cwm in mind.  :)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:25
19:112)  Larry:
 As for Trivial Pursuit, it's a great game... if they kill all of the 
 Entertainment and Art & Literature questions.  Is it me or does everyone
 get 5 of the pies and then hover around pink for 3 hours?  I could give 
 two shits about 1930's movies.  Watching Jeopardy is better and the 
 questions don't get outdated.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 10:57
19:113)  John Lawler:
 It's sports that I hesitate on.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 10:59
19:114)  Stephanie:
 Two shits, Larry. I couldn't even give one. But then, every once in a 
 while, you get a "who was Miss Piggy's Boyfriend" or "what was the creatures
 name who helped Luke Skywalker discover the force" type question. I have
 more trouble with the sports questions anyway. Yes Jeopardy is
 cool. I cant play Scrabble with my mom either- she has an MA in English
 and has read jsut about every book that has ever been printed, and
 it just isnt fair. Its not even sport anymore
- - - - -
Jan30/94 12:51
19:115)  Mitchell:
 Jeopardy!  That's the story of my life.  (For the last 10 years, at least.)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 14:16
19:116)  Rob:
 I think all game shows are my life.
 And Larry how could you not like the Art & Literature questions?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 23:23
19:117)  Kory:
 If anybody needs help on the sports questions come to me.  I love
 sports trivia.  It's Art & Literature that kills me too.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 12:02
19:118)  Tom:
 The sports tria is also my favorite.  Arts and Literature always seem
 to stump me though.  Jeopardy is the best though.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 14:06
19:119)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Have you ever tried the computer version of Jeopardy?  It has to be the
 slowest, most boring computer game.
 Asfor scrabble, I don't think I want to challenge anyone in this class, 
 judging from all the two-letter words you know. :)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:16
19:120)  Mitchell:
 I've played an old Mac version of Jeopardy!  You're right, it is
 agonizingly slow.  However, Leonora, if you ever get the chance, do
 try to play Jeopardy! on Super NES.  The action is much livelier,
 the answers are more diverse, and  the graphics are a vast world ahead.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 16:39
19:121)  Larry:
 I made the mistake of copying the computerized Jeopardy from someone.
 It does suck!  How can anyone have trouble on Sports questions.  Those
 are my favorite, especially since all you have to do is guess the most
 obvious player in every sport.  I think the SPORTS category is the best on
 Jeopardy, because all of the contestants avoid it like the plague.  Then 
 there's no more categories left and they have to answer questions that 
 start "This Chicago Bulls forward just retired....". All of the contestants
 just look at each other with a blank stare.  *(I meant to write 'guard', not
 forward)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 18:33
19:122)  Stephanie:
 I love the art and lit questions.I DO have trouble with the sports, though.
 I mean, how much 1950's golf trivia can one person know?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 19:01
19:123)  Kiran:
 I also love Jeopardy, but I'm not a very big Trivial Puruit fan.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:06
19:124)  Kevin:
 Mitchell:  your last name is pronounced [koom] (re:106)?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:34
19:125)  Monica:
 Monica
 I like many like Trivial Pursuit and Jeopardy.  I used to like Jeopardy a 
 lot more when I was younger because my mom used to pay my brother and I 
 a quarter for each correct answer.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:36
19:126)  Rob:
 No Kevin, Mitchell is refering to the word cwm being pronounced as [koom]. 
 By the way did anyone find cwm in their dictionary?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:45
19:127)  Kevin:
 Rob, you know that and I know that, but does he?  Cwm is in my dictionary.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:51
19:128)  John Lawler:
 By the way, Monica, you don't need to type in your name.  Confer knows
 who you are.
 
 'cwm' is just the way Welsh spells /ku:m/.  They use a "W" for a
 "double U".  Strange of them, I know.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:01
19:129)  Rob:
 Yesterday I saw a sign near the Union advertising a games day.  And guess
 what one of the games is?  SCRABBLE!  There is a phone number for any
 questions.  I haven't called it yet, if anyone does can he/she give the rest
 of us the info?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:14
19:130)  Mitchell:
 Cwm is in the American Heritage dictionary.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:28
19:131)  Dawn:
 back on trivial pursuit . . . I want the 80's edition.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:32
19:132)  Stephanie:
 The 80s ed is ok, I have it a home, Dawn. The 1992 version is really east,
 thogh. Over half the answes are Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, or Ross
 Perot.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:06
19:133)  Larry:
 As for the 1950's golf questions, Stephanie, just guess Arnold Palmer
 and you'll get a piece :)  Pick the most obvious on sports questions.
 I've found that even sports I know nothing about have obvious answers.
 For example, anything with horse racing... guess Willie Shoemaker.  It
 doesn't work in any other category though.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:29
19:134)  Mitchell:
 That's pretty much the way Trivial Pursuit works.  More often than not,
 the obvious answer is the right answer--take it from a 4-time
 Trivial Pursuit tournament champion.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 22:42
19:135)  Dawn:
 Were you really in a TP championship SZCZ? 
 Do they televize those? :-)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:22
19:136)  Zachary:
 Trivial Pursuit is a great game, but Jeopardy is worlds ahead!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:12
19:137)  Mitchell:
 In a way, Dawn.  I played in Trivial Pursuit tournaments in my grade
 school.  I'm not talking about serious professional ranks (I apologize
 if I veered you away from this direction.)  I don't know about any
 such tournaments, though now that you mention it, I may write to
  Brothers (the new manufacturere of TP) and ask them.  True, J!
 ranks ahead of TP, but as far as knowledge and wits are concerned, they
 both pale in comparison to College Bowl.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:40
19:138)  Larry:
 Speaking of trivia, if you want to challenge yourself with really 
 obscure stuff, then play NTN (National Trivia Network).  They have it at
 Touchdown Cafe on South U.  The questions make trivial pursuit look 
 easy and you get to compete against other bars simultaneously across the
 continent.  I played it when it first came out in Montreal a few
 years back, and now it's really caught on. 
- - - - -
Feb02/94 23:02
19:139)  Mitchell:
 NTN, huh?  I'll have to give it a try once I find enough time.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 20    Jan13/94 19:48     1 line      3 responses
Jill                      
phobia

 hey jessie, I suffer from computer phobia also-jill

    3 responses
- - - - -
Jan13/94 19:53
20:1)  Lida:
 Hi Jill. This is Lida and I've been catching up on reading confer.
 Is this really an item?
- - - - -
Jan13/94 23:54
20:2)  Mitchell:
 John L., would you care to do the honors?
- - - - -
Jan14/94 00:55
20:3)  John Lawler:
 Jill, if you want to send a message to Jessie, please use the "T"
 command and not the "E" command to enter an item.
 
 Could we all notice this, please?
 
 Thank you.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 21    Jan14/94 16:10     3 lines   200 responses
John Lawler                        
The Big Turkish Problem

   This is the item about the *big* Turkish problem.  The one where we
 figure out Vowel Harmony.  We'll take first reactions first, and then
 see about long-term development.

  200 responses
- - - - -
Jan14/94 16:24
21:1)  Mitchell:
 I predict that, despite the length, this Turkish homework won't be too
 much more difficult than the Turkish words that appeared on the syllables.
 However, I may eventually eat those words.
- - - - -
Jan14/94 17:47
21:2)  Calvin:
 What is vowel harmony, actually?
- - - - -
Jan14/94 23:52
21:3)  Jake:
 I don't know. Actually isolating the different particles was easier
 than in Swahili. Now, I just have to figure out those damn rule-things. :-)
  
 I think there's an error in the gloss of #67.
 Ignore that line. I'm seeing things. Mea colpa.
- - - - -
Jan15/94 11:08
21:4)  John Lawler:
 culpa
- - - - -
Jan15/94 11:50
21:5)  Sarah:
 Is there supposed to be a spello?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 13:39
21:6)  Mitchell:
 I figured out the Turkish problem as best I could; here's some of what I
 figured out: 1) The derivational affix in question is #37 (I think) 2) The
 vowel harmony involves whether or not one should use suffix with either an A
 or U or an E or I sound; the determining factor being the root itself; 3) You
 can drop a K at the end of root under certain circumstances.  Hope this
 helps.
- - - - -
Jan15/94 13:40
21:7)  Jake:
 Question: In #23 and other places, "your" is translated as "iniz" or
 similar, with the typical plurl-pronoun "-iz" on the expected "-in"
 Does this imply that on those problems, "your" is plurl, and in the others
 it's singular, because there's no difference in the gloss.
- - - - -
Jan15/94 13:43
21:8)  Jake:
 MS, dont forget, "-lu" changes to to "lu:" in #40.
 (I suggest, for the umlauts [the two dots on top of words] that for
 convention, we place a semi-colon next to the vowl, like I just did.)
- - - - -
Jan15/94 13:50
21:9)  Mitchell:
 Jake, I think that the determining factor between using "-in" or "-iniz"
 is whether or not the root itself is plural (that is, there's a "-ler-"
 or "-lar-"), and not whether or not the "you" or "your" is plural.  Hope
 this helps (hope you can follow it).
- - - - -
Jan15/94 14:05
21:10)  Jake:
 That sounded good, but...
 #99: kus^lari-n = your birds.
 According to your solution, it should be kus^lari-ni-z.
 (Notice new typing convention forming...
 Is that OK John. Official opinion of my conventions?)
- - - - -
Jan15/94 18:31
21:11)  Mitchell:
 By jove, Jake, I think you're right about #99.  Which means that it is in all
 likelihood a typographical error.  Judge Lawler, what's your verdict?
- - - - -
Jan15/94 23:51
21:12)  Henry:
 Some questions.  Should there be a "d" in #7?  Who knows why the usual
 "de" for in is coverted to "ta" in #6 and to "te" in #45.  Likewise,
 I'm trying to find a rule for when to use "un" vs "un:" vs "iniz".
 MS, #99 better be a typo or very irregular!  
            Hasta La Vista Baby
- - - - -
Jan16/94 00:53
21:13)  John Lawler:
 I don't have my copy handy, Jake, but note that English "your" is
 ambiguous between singular and plural 2nd person.  So either
 version of 99 should work with that gloss.
 
 Is that an error?
 
 Oh, and I don't think you should put a colon after a vowel to
 indicated umlaut, because there's already a convention that uses
 a colon after a vowel to indicate a long vowel.  If you must
 indicate an umlaut, put a double quote sign: Tu"rkis^.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 14:03
21:14)  Larry:
 I gave it some time last night and I'm pretty sure I have this thang
 worked out.  I'm not too sure how much I can say on here ( I don't want
 Lawler coming after my first born), but I've tried it on the first 50 or so
 words and it has yet to fail me.  My observations:
  
 1) I have not found any errors whatsoever!
 2) The your-plural and your-sing is ambiguous, but it seems that it
 would make the most sense for it to follow just like 'my' and 'our'.
 For example, 'im' becomes 'imiz' in the 1st person to make it plural, and
 'in' becomes 'iniz' to make the 2nd person plural.  This is inferred and
 not given directly by the given data. (also there is vowel harmony to 
 consider in all of the possessive pronouns, so the above was just one 
 example.
 3) The preposition 'in' (English) is 'da','de', etc after most letters,
 except 's' or 'c', where it changes to 'ta','te', etc.
 4) The derivational is the 'li','lu', etc., if for nothing else, it 
 changes the part of speech.
 5)  As for vowel harmony, there is too much to write on this thing.  I set
 up a table of which ending tends to follow the most recent vowel.  It is
 a bit confusing (more than a bit), but you should be able to generate a
 rule.
  
 I hope that helped (also I hope it is correct).  Good luck to everyone!
 Also, Prof. Lawler, is there an easy way to get the necessary symbols on
 Microsoft Word to list the vowels and stuff.  I have no idea how I'm going
- - - - -
Jan16/94 14:03
21:15)  Larry:
 to write that 'i' with the dash through it.  If there is, can you either 
 put it on the conference or create a handout.  I'm going to play around
 with the fonts on Word later.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 14:39
21:16)  John Lawler:
 There are several phonetics fonts in /linguistics/fonts/mac on
 archive.umich.edu.  Palphon is a nice one that you can use with the
 Palatino font most Macs have.  It comes in TrueType, Type 1 PostScript,
 and bitmap formats.  It'll do anything we need to do in terms of
 phonetic symbols.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 14:41
21:17)  Jake:
 I know John has the font for IPA. Ask him for it.
 (John, could you put it on FTP somewhere?)
  
 Alright, I had figured out most of what LL had. However, I have a suggestion.
 To figure out the vowel harmony, make a list of each ending of a type
 (like: -ta, -da, -de etc. for "in") and list the words that take that ending
 underneath each one. I have a suspicion that'll show some really interesting
 stuff. I've already done it for -ler and -lar, and a pattern is already
 emerging. 
 Has anyone noticed a problem w/"child" yet. I believe #97 is a typo.
 It should read, imho, "c^oj^u" instead of "c^oj^uk".
 Any agreements or dissent?
  
 Just a comment:
  #87 was fun because "kitaaba" means "to read" in Arabic.
  "kitibe" ie "book" I wonder if there's a connection between the
 two languages?
- - - - -
Jan16/94 14:55
21:18)  John Lawler:
 The major connection is that Turkish is almost entirely spoken by
 Muslims.  For the record, 'kitab' means 'book' in Swahili, too, for
 the same reason.  It's important to distinguish between borrowed
 words and cognate words in determining language relationships.
 
 You must have missed my last response, Jake.  It's already on
 ftp in the UM archives.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 15:06
21:19)  Jake:
 Yeah. I did. I was typing while you were posting.
 But I got the fonts.
  
 To those not in the know how to fetch the fonts:
 Get your IFS directory up on the desktop.
 Get to here.
 Type "exit" at "do next". Type "ftp archive.umich.edu"
 login=anonymous, password=user@host
 type "cd linguistics/fonts/mac"
 type "get palphon.*.*"
 type "bye" to leave ftp.
  
 On the desktop, open: Hard Disk/archive/util/compresion/deHQX/deHQX
 Find "palphon.*.*" in your IFS thingy.
 It will then deHQX for you. The result, in a minute or two, will be:
 Palphon (Mac Version). Move to desktop (it takes a lot of space)
 Double click. It'll automatically deCPT for you.
 Move the folder "PalPhon.Mac" into Hard Disk/System Folder/Fonts
 And..ta da, you have fonts.
  
 Hope that helps.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 15:13
21:20)  Jake:
 Oh, don't forget to take the font out of the folder for it to work.
 Sorry.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 15:52
21:21)  Mitchell:
 #99 is not a typo, as far as I can figure out.  There is a pattern.  All
 you have to do is find it (like it sounds easy)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:37
21:22)  Larry:
 After going a little further on the list of words... add 't' to the 
 other letters ('s' and 'c') that necessitate a change from 'de' to 'te',
 etc.  I'm still going and the rules a stated earlier in this item still work.
 (Knock on wood).
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:44
21:23)  Jake:
 Also note that some words go through consanent changes.
 For example, aac^ (tree) changes to aaj^ before a vowel.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 18:07
21:24)  Stephanie:
 An easy way to get started, for those who have not, is to group all the
 words together that have a similar root. They are not always together on
 the handout, though, so it takes a bit of time.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 20:34
21:25)  John Lawler:
 Lists!  Make lots of lists!
 
 That's how you find the patterns.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 22:40
21:26)  Larry:
 Thanks, Jake!  I hadn't gotten far enough to see that one yet.
 As Prof Lawler said, lists are good!
- - - - -
Jan16/94 22:51
21:27)  Jake:
 Lists are very good. Unfortunatly, they're hell on the wrist. :-)
 Ha ha.
  
 If anyone wants a deHQX, deCPTed copy of the IPA fonts,
 I will give you a disk with them on it, including my own little
 instruction guide.
  
 Legally, I cannot sell these (because of school regs - look em up)
 but a nominal fee would be appreciated.
 (or you can provide your own disk, if you trust me)
- - - - -
Jan17/94 13:24
21:28)  Jake:
 Couple more comments about PalPhon:
 1: you can probably type your entire paper in PalPhon:
 all of the IPA symbols require you to hit option or option-shift.
 Of course, I may be wrong: am I, John?
  
 The codes we need for the turkish problem are:
 i-barred: option-p
 umlaut (normal):: shift-option-3
 umlaut (thin): change to PalPi font: s-3
 umlaut (wide): change to PalPi font: shift-option-3
- - - - -
Jan17/94 15:33
21:29)  John Lawler:
 Depends on what computer you're using, Jake.  That's
 probably true for Macs with Word.  But you can also
 do a lot of it in Palatino:
  umlaut U: Option-U U
  umlaut O: Option-U O
 These automatically space out the dots where they should
 be, and they work in *every* Mac font.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 19:31
21:30)  Jake:
 Oops, forgot:
 hackek (upside down circumflex)
 normal: shift-option-7
 thin: PalPi shift-7
 wide: PalPi shift-option-7
  
 dotless j (for j-hackek): PalPi j
  
 If people want the fonts from me, trans me so I can get a headcount.
 Thanks.
  
 Does anyone else think #45 is an error? According to what I have worked
 out, it should be "sesde"
  
 Also, I've found four "classes" of words. Anyone else?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 19:51
21:31)  Lida:
 Jake, according to the way I did the assignment #45 is correct, but there 
 is something wrong with #70. The way I did it  it should be "yuzleriniz"
- - - - -
Jan17/94 21:26
21:32)  Calvin:
 when a word has more than one vowel in it, it is the last vowel that affects
 the form of the affix.  Also, #'s 68 and 100 seem to indicate that the affix
 -ler and its variations are never needed when another word is present to
 convey plurality, such as the adjective yedi (seven).  Hope thsi helps.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 22:21
21:33)  Calvin:
 The Turkish word "adam" (man) is alot like the Hebrew word "adamah" (grich
 was named for the biblical progenitor of the human race.  Any input, anyuone?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 23:07
21:34)  Jake:
 LB, I think your right. I get the same result.
 Got the same, CY.
 However, I'm stuck on what to do with 95-96, "dog"
 What's the root: ko"pe or Ko"pek. A similar thing seems to happen with
 90-91 c^oj^uk=child. Does anyone know why the "k" dropped?
- - - - -
Jan18/94 01:38
21:35)  Henry:
 Jake, I am stuck for the same reason.  It seems that in #'s 83,
 90, and 96 consonants either get dropped or changed.  This refers to
 the last statement on the problem about consonant variation in morphemes.
 I can't find any general principle that describes variations because
 those 3 seem to be the only ones.  I hope the Prof.  discusses this 
 Tuesday.  Also my vowel harmony occurs in two sets which use the first
 vowel in the noun root to determine placement.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 09:01
21:36)  Henry:
 I just remembered the other type of consonant variation in which
 'de' changes to 'te' and 'da' to 'ta' after certain consonants
 as Larry explained before.  However, because #'s 83, 90, and 96
 are so different it seems like there is NO general principle
 to describe them all.  But I am not sure.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 10:14
21:37)  John Lawler:
 There are general principles, but explanation doesn't come cheap.
 
 You have to start by *describing*, and then find a description that
 uses the right (i.e, relevant) terms.  There are lots of ways you
 could describe the situation here, but only some of them use the
 right categories.  When you do get a good, tight description, you
 still don't necessarily have an "explanation" in the sense of the
 answer to the question "why".  In science, that's a tough question
 to pose, let alone answer.  "Why?" has to do with human motivations
 and anthropomorphic cause-effect relationships.  We can't always
 understand cause and effect, and as for motivations...
 
 So we have to be satisfied for a while with just getting the best,
 most relevant, most thorough, most concise description going.  Then
 we may find an explanation for the phenomenon we've described; but
 mostly that happens by serendipity.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:30
21:38)  Jake:
 HK: I have #83 figured out: c^->j^ before a vowel.
 Actually, I found the -de -da -te -ta problem was a question of
 vowels, not consonants. If you make a list of which words take
 -ler or -lar in the plurl, and then make the -de -te etc list, you
 find out at least one nifty thing:
 there seem to be four classes of vowels: {i,e}, {a i-}, {o, u}
 and {o", u"}.
  
 Can anyone back me up on this. I have to check it out further,
 but it seems to be working
 so far. Oops, I made a mistake: compare -ler, -lar with the
 possessive markers. My fault.
 (But it works on de- etc too, I think. Like I said, have to do more
 work)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:39
21:39)  Larry:
 I don't think that I can back you up on this one, Jake.  It looks to 
 me that the 'd' changes to a 't' after either 'c','s','t'.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:49
21:40)  Jake:
 But that doesn't explain #88 kitapta, "in the book".
  
 However, looking over my (many many) lists, it seems that vowels
 don't factor into the -de, -te question. %#@$%!@!!!
- - - - -
Jan18/94 12:50
21:41)  John Lawler:
 There are different reasons for vowel changes and for consonant
 changes.  So {-te, -de, -ta, -da} show *two* changes.  One
 kind of thing accounts for the t/d alternation and another
 for the a/e alternation.
 
 Jake's groups are right.  You'll see why today when we dissect
 the Turkish vowel system, right there on the laboratory table.
 I hope nobody faints at the sight of body organs, because we'll
 all have to be experimenting with our own as we progress.  No
 blood, however, and we haven't reached the stage where we need
 formaldehyde yet.  :-)
 
 Oh, and bravo for Lida!  In response 31 above (you can see it
 by saying "31 only" at the "Respond, Forget, or Pass:" prompt), she
 suggested that item 70 was a typo and said what it should be.  She's
 right, dammit.  I thought there were no toyps on this sheet, but
 there surely is.  And what she says it should be is what it is
 (though she forgot the umlaut on the U in the first syllable):
   70.  yu"zleriniz   'your faces'
 Way to go.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:39
21:42)  Larry:
 Amending my last response again, the d changes to t after a voiceless
 consonant.  I've got it fully dissected now (finally).  In other words,
 it works for every word or phrase on the sheet.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:50
21:43)  Jennifer:
 I also got the same thing about the voiced and voiceless consonants as Larry 
   did.  Here's another thing: when looking at whether 'ler' or 'lar' should
 be used, look at that vowel sheet we used yesterday and compare the e or the
 [B[C preceding vowel.  You'll notice some patterns.  Peace out.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 16:47
21:44)  Sarah:
 I still don't seem to understand the vowel harmony completely.
 How long are you supposed to talk about this in the homework?
- - - - -
Jan19/94 17:11
21:45)  Kiran:
 Do we use vowel harmony in figuring out other affixes besides the plural
 (i.e. possessives)? Also, when you look at the vowel preceeding a certain
 affix do you look at the vowel in the root or at the vowel directly
 preceeding that affix? For example, #57 pullari-m , Do you consider the a of
 lar the preceeding vowel or the u of pul? (I hope I didn't confuse anyone!!)
- - - - -
Jan19/94 17:34
21:46)  John Lawler:
 All the affixes that have vowels in them obey the vowel harmony rules.
 Not just the plural.
 
 Generalize, generalize.
 
 And the question you have just asked, Kiran (which vowels in the preceding
 context do affixes harmonize with?) is *THE* right question.  Try out
 several possibilities and see what you think is the correct one.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 19:16
21:47)  Jennifer:
 i have a question, and i hope someone has an answer.  has anyone figured out
 the whole shpiel with the morphemes for "your"?  Like, when do you use -in as
 pposed to -iniz or one of the other ones?  i'm very confused, so someone
 please help soon!  thanks!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 19:47
21:48)  Abheek:
 I'm not sure, but I think that im and imizand others like it are used
 when the root has a front vowel.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:09
21:49)  Kiran:
 I think the answer to my question is that affix vowels harmonize with the 
 vowels directly preceeding them and not the vowels of the root. Does anybody 
 agree or disagree??
 Also, Jennifer, the only solution I could come up with for 'your' is that 
 -un, -un(umlaut), -in, and -i-n are used when the root is singular while
 -iniz, unuz(umlaut), and -i-ni-z are used when the root is plural.
 The only problem I ran into was if milk is plural or singular. I thought
 it was singular, but it follows the rule for plural. Any help??
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:15
21:50)  Jennifer:
 kiran, i'm thinking that the your has something to do with the pers     oops!
  with the pronoun that modifies it and the root.  also, i think that     
 milk is singular.  sorry!  confer if you figure andything else out!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:15
21:51)  Jake:
 I agree with your first part, KM.
 But I disagree on the second: -*z (where *=vowel) is used to make
 the possessor plurl. IE: my, -*m to become -*m*z, our.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:16
21:52)  Jennifer:
 jake, i really didn't undrestand what you weer talking about
- - - - -
Jan19/94 21:34
21:53)  John Lawler:
 Since we don't have singular and plural "you" in English, analogize.
 
 Which is more likely: "his faces" or "their faces"?  Since people
 only have one face each, the plural of the *POSSESSOR* is more likely
 here.  But several people can possess the same singular, no?
 "their daughter" is perfectly fine; and so is "his daughters".
 
 So you have to distinguish two individual nominals: the POSSESSED
 and the POSSESSOR.  Either can be singular or plural, depending on
 what you mean.
 
 In Turkish, you use the plural 2nd person when you *mean* plural
 2nd person.  What could be simpler?
- - - - -
Jan19/94 21:55
21:54)  Jake:
 Never using the 2nd person :-P
 (Yeah - we could all speak like Germans using formal you.)
 (Q: Are there such languages, John?)
- - - - -
Jan19/94 23:18
21:55)  Anand:
 John, I am having a very hard time differentiating between voiced and
 voiceless sounds.  To me, pa vibrates the voice box the same way ba vibrates
 it.  Yet, pa is considered voiceless and ba is voiced.  Can anyone please
 help me?
- - - - -
Jan19/94 23:48
21:56)  Henry:
 Anand, I think you should drop the 'a' from pa and ba and then try to
 pronounce it.  There is a difference there.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 00:28
21:57)  Ron:
 It might just be me, but you guys seem to really be getting the hang
 of this.  I'm lost and am looking at p/f.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 00:34
21:58)  Amy:
 Ron, you aren't the only one...trust me. P/F IS looking good now.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 02:14
21:59)  Anand:
 r
 Ron and Kim, give it some time.  To tell you the truth, it must've taken me
 8 hours to finally decipher this puzzle, and to type out the paper.  The
 problem set is hard, not easy.  But, don't worry.  Start creating lists.
 Refer to your notes, especially the cube drawing.  I love the cube drawing.
 Being good in math and geometry, I could easily see what was going on.
 Most importantly don't give up hope.  Remember : voiced/voiceless sounds
 high/low and front/back.  
- - - - -
Jan20/94 02:17
21:60)  Kory:
 I think that the vowel in the case suffix(i.e. -a, -tan, -dan, -ta, -da) has
 to do with the vowel in the root. I hope someone else agrees.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 02:45
21:61)  Kory:
 Forget my last thought .  I screwed up, and I now agree that the vowel in the
 suffix is determined by the vowel preceding whether in a root or another
 suffix.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 07:01
21:62)  Nicholas:
 Professor, thank you for clarifying the 'your' possessor/possessed nuance! :)
 Kory: I don't agrre with your last statement, look at #2-#89 and #91 with
 #15, the preceeding vowels are the same and yet the suffix is either dan
 or tan. My explanation for that is whether or not there is a preceeding
 voiced consonnant. :) my 2 cents...
- - - - -
Jan21/94 12:40
21:63)  Jake:
 I've had serveral requests to repost the information on how to
 get PalPhont. Rather than repost them, just type "19" at the r,f,p
 prompt - becuase it is response 19 on this item.
  
 Also, I forgot to mention that archive.umich.edu will deny
 user-anonymous access between the hours of 7am and 11pm.
 So, do this: at the "do next" prompt, type "exit"
 then: cd /afs/umich.edu/group/archive
 That will get you into the archives. All the rest is the same,
 exept to copy the file, type:
 cp filename /afs/umich.edu/user/u/n/uniquename
 (You can find the filename by typing ls)
 where u=the first letter of your uniquename,
 n=the second letter
 and uniquename=your uniqname.
  
- - - - -
Jan28/94 16:07
21:64)  Anand:
 Jake, I heard you just got the Korean font.  How's it going?  Can you
 understan d the letters (Sorry John! Pardon my expression) Can you understand
 the sounds of the alphabet.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 22:25
21:65)  Jake:
 So John doesn't have to...
 AS, for questions/comments like that, messages are preferable over
 responses.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 01:04
21:66)  Melissa:
 My, Jake--you are the quintessential moniter of confer!;)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:07
21:67)  Larry:
 Good use of the word "quintessential", Melissa!  :-)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 17:24
21:68)  Jake:
 Thanks, I try. BTW, it's "Monitor" :-)
 Or Lord-and-Master to ya'll. *laughs histerically*
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:41
21:69)  Larry:
 Hell, Jake, we can all dream!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:27
21:70)  Jin Ho:
 That's right Jake, keep on dreaming! Cause you can try til your face turn ,
 but dream is all you can do! That'll never be reality! ;) Just joking! I
 think you add a lot to this conference.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 18:43
21:71)  Melissa:
 Thanks, Larry--I try to use such gems as "quintessential" and "plethera"
  and "myriad" whenever possible.  Not to mention those less common
 ones like "femur" and "soporific".
- - - - -
Feb06/94 19:11
21:72)  Larry:
 "Soporific" is a great one that I just started using to make myself
 sound intelligent.  For those who don't know what it means, it's 
 synonymous with "narcoleptic" and "catatonic"... did that help?
- - - - -
Feb06/94 20:34
21:73)  Mitchell:
 No, Larry.  My AHD sez that soporific means: "inducing or tending to
 induce sleep."  Useful word, I would imagine.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 22:32
21:74)  Stephanie:
 I like multitudinous. Though common, it is still long and
 multisyllabic, so it is fun to say. :)
- - - - -
Feb07/94 13:16
21:75)  Larry:
 Anyone know what "anapisthographic" means?  Not too frequent in
 everyday discourse, but it's a fun word nevertheless.
 (It means "having writing only on one side of the page")
- - - - -
Feb07/94 16:36
21:76)  Mitchell:
 I MUST remember that word!
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:08
21:77)  Anand:
 Why would you want writing on only one side of the page?
 What language uses that word????
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:16
21:78)  Kevin:
 Anand, maybe it's the last page.  I don't know.  Very few of our handouts
 in class have been anapisthographic.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 23:06
21:79)  Stephanie:
 I always write on one side. It is much easier that way. Why. I havent
 the faintest idea.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 14:41
21:80)  Larry:
 Me too, Stephanie.  People always bug me about it
- - - - -
Feb08/94 18:03
21:81)  Lee:
 Yup, I do too.  It's easier to review my notes, and for some reason
 if I don't do it, my notes get much messier.  Go figure.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:51
21:82)  Dawn:
 writing on both sides of the paper either smears pencil or pen shows up
 on the opposite side of the page making the writing less clear.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:20
21:83)  Stephanie:
 Exactly. And if you are doing a math problem and the end of the page 
 comes in the middle of it, you CANT very well just turn the page
 over...
- - - - -
Feb09/94 13:58
21:84)  Zachary:
 There is a n environmental concern that should enter one's mind when
 dealing with wasteful practices.  Using both sides of the paper may
 not seem like a big deal but it does help in the long run.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:41
21:85)  Stephanie:
 Of course it does. Quite a bit in fact. And so does recycling--
 ie. using the other side for scratch paper when the assignment
 is handed back. Which is actually more like reusing than 
 recycling, I suppose. I am surprised to see that the environmental
 movement which was so much a part of my  life in high school
 is so hard to find out here. I know there are groups on campus,
 but as for the ENTIRE state, I see far less awareness out here
 than at home. 
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:05
21:86)  John Lawler:
 You forgot to mention that you were from northern California, Stephanie.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 18:29
21:87)  Stephanie:
 Oh yeah. Well, there is a lot in Sothern California to, but they
 also have LA (nuff said)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:30
21:88)  Larry:
 Whaddayamean, Stephanie.  Everywhere I walk there is a recycling bin
 for something.  My high school didn't have any of that.  I haven't
 jumped on the recycling bandwagon though, which is wierd because part
 of my job as VP of my house is to manage the recycling.  I figure that 
 the same people that voted me to be in charge of recycling must have
 been those who elected Clinton to be in charge of the military.
 (NOT a political commentary... just a joke!)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:52
21:90)  Stephanie:
 Yes, there are recycling bins everywhere, but where is the mass movement 
 for ozone protection...save the coastline...stop offshore drilling...
 education of primary chool children...tree plantings...beach
 clean-ups...etc etc etc
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:58
21:91)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Whoops, what I meant to say before (but didn't quite get in) was:  Stephanie,
 have you been to the other 48 states? :)  Ann Arobr has the best recycling
 program I've ever seen.  (Of course, I haven't been to California recently.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:05
21:92)  Stephanie:
 rep
 NO. just a generalization. broad-based of course. but you would be impressed
 by the programs in ca, not to mention the alternative energy use
 et al.
- - - - -
Feb11/94 12:27
21:93)  Karen :
 Colorado has an amazing environmental program as well. . .
 and the suburb in Chicago that I live in recycles EVERYTHING 
- - - - -
Feb13/94 20:27
21:94)  Lee:
 I'm kind of surprised that Larry has no recycling at home (in MD).  Where
 I came from, everthing is recycled.  There is recycling all over the 
 schools, curbside pickup of recyclables for residential neighborhoods, etc.
 I've also done a lot less recycling since coming here since it is so much
 less accessible.
- - - - -
Feb13/94 20:31
21:95)  Larry:
 Last year they made us start recycling our cans and bottles, which
 got annoying really fast.  We've always had to recycle newspapers.  I
 guess I was referring to public recycling.  Neither of the places I worked
 (retail stores) even mentioned the word 'recycling'.  Everything hit
 the dumpster.  Here, especially on campus, there are bins everywhere.
 If you were carrying a can on the street, you would throw it in the 
 nearest trash can without even thinking about it.
- - - - -
Feb13/94 22:54
21:96)  Stephanie:
 Rhat was exactly my point. At home, there are places to recycle wherever
 you go, and everything has some sort of environmental slant to
 it.
 We also have those wacko groups like Earth First! that go around blowing
 things up.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 16:07
21:97)  Larry:
 Stephanie... they blow things up???
- - - - -
Feb14/94 16:11
21:98)  Stephanie:
 yes...when they think that it will SOMEHOW help the environment.
 Like I said...they are pretty disturbed. Its a really radical
 group, and most of us are not that radical. Dedicated, yes,
 but radical, no. 
- - - - -
Feb14/94 16:14
21:99)  Larry:
 Now I'm really glad I live on the East Coast!  Sure DC has shootings,
 but at least we don't have radical Earthy groups!  ;)
- - - - -
Feb14/94 17:28
21:100)  Zachary:
 There are some environmental groups which are extreme, just like in 
 anything else, but there are also a lot of people didicating their
 precious time to help make this planet more liveable for future 
 generations.  I think that we have a moral obligation to the future 
 inhabitants of this great planet.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 18:25
21:101)  Stephanie:
 I agree wholeheartedly. And there is never that excuse "One person
 cant make a difference" crap. Is there necessarily more to do
 in CA? Is that why the movement is stronger out there, or is it
 just that it is more liberal. Hmmm.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 19:54
21:102)  Kevin:
 Recycling is a Big Turkish Problem.
  
 I can't speak for California, having only every visited.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 22:41
21:103)  Stephanie:
 Well, someone else respond then. :)
- - - - -
Feb14/94 23:48
21:104)  Lee:
 Once again Larry, I'm surprised your area doesn't have what mine does.
 (Incidentally, I also agree with Zach--eloquently put too!)  Larry,
 I haven't seen anywhere near the dedication ot the environment as I saw
 growing up.  I would say Maryland is loaded with environmentalists, but
 then again, that was one of my causes growing up (and still is).
- - - - -
Feb15/94 09:54
21:105)  Mitchell:
 (Warning, TOPIC DRIFT!) (But as long as we're on the subject of
 environmentalism, I'll put my say into the
- - - - -
Feb15/94 09:57
21:106)  Mitchell:
 matter) (I forgot to exercise my backspace option; it is SO infuriating!)
 Anyway, the spirit shown here toward the environment is admirable,
 though misplaceed.
- - - - -
Feb15/94 10:02
21:107)  Mitchell:
 (There it goes again; it will be the longest reply in history bec--er,
 before I'm done)  Anyway, it's misplaced.  IMHO, the greatest bane to
 the planet and to human welfare is what some staunch advocates call
 the 4 C's: care---whoops, cars, chemicals, cattle and children
 (overpopulation).  It's neat to consider recycling as a viable option,
 but don't expect much REAL planetary improvement until the 4 C's have
 been death
 er, dealt with i--er, on a widespread and ideological scale.
 (I await theimpending whirlwind of responses.)
- - - - -
Feb15/94 10:46
21:108)  Stephanie:
 I cannot say that I agree, Mitchell, but I do not disagree
 on all counts. Nor do I agree on all counts.While it is
 true that cars cause a great deal of environmental damage,
 they make our country, and many others, what it is. Cars provide
 the freedom that we have always desired. And with the dawn of a new
 age come new types of less damaging vehicles. i.e. electric
 cars, which will afford us the same freedoms but which will not harm
 that which we must protect. Chemicals are greatly affectinour
 planet, and while we use them too much, it seems that if we really
 needed to, we would stop. However, the fact that this might take
 and impending crisis scares me. Cattle....well, maybe, but if
 we could jsut find someplace else for them to graze.....and
 children. c'mon. I mean, they are the future. It is true
 that our planet can only support so many people, but I dont think
 that cutting off the future is the answer. 
- - - - -
Feb15/94 11:12
21:109)  Kevin:
 Of course cutting off the future is no answer, but maybe a little judicious
 pruning....  Do we really need 80 billion people?
- - - - -
Feb15/94 11:51
21:110)  Tom:
 I feel that we (our) generation must take the first steps to improve
 the enviriment.  Where I'm from FlatRock,MI the only people who appear
 tp care about the enviriment are the high school and elementary school
 students.  In my town all the adults especially my parents complain 
 about the efforts we put into recycling.  They I guess are not educated
 on the importance of recycling and limiting use.
- - - - -
Feb15/94 15:52
21:111)  Mitchell:
 SAM, thank you for sharing your thoughts on these issues.  However, do
 keep in mind that I am not merely saying such things as unfounded opinions.
 I have been fortunate to learn some things that are not exactly public
 knowledge (because if such knowledge were to become public, then 
 upheavals of modes of thought and ways of life would become imminent.)
 Allow me to elaborate by replying to each of your responses in turn:
 1) On cars, while there have been some improvements in the industry and
 in newer car models (like electric, as you mentioned), cars as a whole must
 be acknowledged as an environmental threat because of the soil erosion,
 tree-cutting, and species extinctions (some 100,000 in the USA since 1900),
 that accompany the mass-production of cars, and roads--their bastard kin.
 You mention, SAM, that cars are a liberating tool.  But consider that
 people are able to go from place to place by bicycles
 (and by buses which accomodate people and bikes for longer trips) all over
 the world.
 2) I don't quite understand your explanation on chemicals.  Could you
 rephrase your explanation?
 3)Judging from your response, I am assuming that you think, SAM, that
 cattle and other sources of meat are an absolute necessity.  I have
 learned that such a way of thinking is detrimental.  Cattle grazing takes
 up an estimated 70% of lands in states west of the Mississippi; the
 subsequent manure production, the arid lands created, and the COLLOSAL
- - - - -
Feb15/94 15:52
21:112)  Mitchell:
 amount of water used make cattle production one  of, if not THE, premier
 environmental threat.  
 4) I was misunderstood regarding "children."  I did not mean the extinction
 of human progeny.  I did mean the REDUCTION of human progeny.  You may
 argue, SAM, that such a dillema may be largely occurring in 3rd World
 countries--and you may be right.  In which case, a rigorous worldwide
 birth control policy must be enacted.  Unfortunately, I don't know as
 much on this topic as I would like--clearly I need to do more research
 into this area.
- - - - -
Feb15/94 16:17
21:113)  Larry:
 OK, I'm a bad boy!  I hate recycling and the only reason I don't
 toss bottles in the trash is because they are worth $.10 to me.
 I guess I kind of feel that once you buy something , it becomes 
 *yours* and you can do with its remains whatever you want with it.
 I know it's a bad philosophy... (And I'm in charge of recycling at 
 my house)...
- - - - -
Feb15/94 20:15
21:114)  Tara:
 Baaad Larry.    ;)
- - - - -
Feb15/94 20:31
21:115)  Larry:
 Me sorry :(  (tears are flyin')
- - - - -
Feb15/94 20:56
21:116)  Rob:
 I would like to add to Mitchell's response on cattle.  Not only do they take
 up the land and use up lots of water, but they also burp a lot.  This may not
 seem to be a big deal, but a cow's burp contains methane gas which is harmful
 to the atmosphere.  If you figure in the amount of cattle that exists in the
 world, then what you have is a huge source of methane gas wrecking havoc on 
 the environment.
- - - - -
Feb15/94 21:56
21:117)  Dale:
 RL, they also are very flatulent, which also produces methane.:)
- - - - -
Feb15/94 22:34
21:118)  Stephanie:
 yes, this is true. all of this is true. but the answer to thses
 problems is not curtailment. Conservation is the key. And
 it is illogical to thn\ink that those things upon which we have
 come to depend  will not be used, that is, we cannot expect
 their use to be stoppedd completely...not ever. I never said that
 cattle were absolutely necessary, and I DO not believe this
 to be true. However, just as you cannot expect people to stop
 using their cars, you cannot expect them to become vegetarians.
 I know the statistic too. And I dont doubt that some of them lie,
 but living where i have lived and having done what I have
 done, I must say that I know how easy it is to state
 the statistics, but the hard part lies in doing something about them.
- - - - -
Feb15/94 23:09
21:119)  Zachary:
 I agree with Stephanie, if everyone did their own little part, the 
 world would be a much cleaner and healthier place. Especially for
 future generations of the human race.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 08:08
21:120)  John Lawler:
 Not to get embroiled in this, but Zach's response reminded me that what he
 says is true not just of ecological sanity, but also peace, love,
 brotherhood, and everything else wonderful.
 
 And this is not a new discovery, either.  Every single important religious
 and social movement in history has espoused it. The problem is *getting*
 everyone to "do their little part", and that always comes down to economics
 and politics in the long run, no matter what the situation is.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 11:07
21:121)  Lee:
 I agree with Zach again.  You can't expect your small part to change the 
 world, but if everybody does change, a difference can be made.  In the 
 meanwhile, you can at least feel good about yourself.  On that note, I 
 want to add that doing your part really does make you feel better about 
 yourself.  Since I have become a vegetarian, aside from the nutritional 
 benefits, I also feel a lot better about myself.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 11:55
21:122)  Tom:
 I agree with Zach on this one.  It is neccessary for all of use to do
 are little part to make life a lot better for everyone including 
 ourselves.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 13:29
21:123)  Mitchell:
 Responding to SAM's response (118), I think that curtailment and
 conservation are both necessary here.  If a little change in a person's
 life for the betterment of the world is good, then a bigger change would
 be better.  And don't underestimate the ability of people to change--
 especially when it comes to issues that you mentioned (vegetarianism
 and cars).  
- - - - -
Feb16/94 16:34
21:124)  Larry:
 Uh oh.... I'm a bad boy again.  I like cattle because they provide
 me with hot dogs and hamburgers.  In fact I think we need more, just 
 don't put all of them in my home state anymore.  This vegetarian issue
 is a BIG point of contention at my co-op.  I'm gonna get killed on this one, 
 but I believe vegetarianism is a choice, similar to keeping kosher.  I 
 (oops) nothing but respect for those who have the willpower to exercise that
 choice.  But I feel we cater too much (this is where I get killed) to those
 who narrow down their food options OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.  My coop has a 
 vegetarian alternative 7 days a week (6 of 53 members are veg).  I really
 don't have much of an argument with that.  But we have more members who 
 absolutely despise vegetables (not me, by the way) and would prefer meat
 at every meal.  If the cooks cook a meatless meal then that is considered
 fine by the vegetarians, but if we ever didn't cook a vegetarian meal heads 
 would roll.  Does anyone else see this double standard around?  The way I
 see it, when a person makes the choice to narrow down their food options,
 they are accepting the realization (and consequences) that it will be more
 difficult to find food.  No different than if I choose not to drink, I
 certainly take on the realization that it may be harder to find refreshment
 at fraternity parties.  I'm not trying to offend anyone whatsoever, but I
- - - - -
Feb16/94 16:34
21:125)  Larry:
 have to see if anyone is with me on this, and it's been bugging me since
 the beginning of the year when I moved into the co-op.  Feel free to rip
 me apart, it's only fair I guess....
- - - - -
Feb16/94 19:11
21:126)  Vassoula:
 Did you know that hot dogs cause mutations in you DNA!
- - - - -
Feb16/94 19:24
21:127)  Stephanie:
 Larry, I agree fully. It is definitely a double standard, but it is
 one which you probably cannot do anything about, mainly because
 your coop has chosen to cater to the likes an wants of a few.
  
 I dont think that I have underestimated people's ability to change
 at all. Ijust dont think that one can EXPECT the world to change.
 First, I dont see everyone in the world caring so much about 
 the environment, so perhaps one of the biggest problems is
 apathy. 
- - - - -
Feb16/94 19:35
21:128)  Calvin:
 I agree with Larry.  Meat is good.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 23:00
21:129)  Lee:
 Even thougI don't eat poor defenseless animals (read: "meat"), I still
 agree with Larry somewhat.  When I became a vegetarian four years ago, 
 I realized that I would have more difficulty going out to eat, sharing 
 food, shopping, etc.  It's difficult, but I deal with it.
 On the other side though, you'd be surprised how many places (restaurants)
 which have large menus, and with the exception of appetizers and desserts,
 you can't find a meatless item in the place.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 23:34
21:130)  Mitchell:
 Larry, you provide some legitimate points in your 124 reply.  I have
 been a vegetarian for well over a year now, and a vegan effectively since
 September.  I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the reason the
 whole world isn't vegetarian is that people don't know any better.  I
 was the scion to a restaurant in Grand Rapids called the Wisla Shop--
 a restaurant where 92% of the items feature or include some form of
 dead animal flesh (my phrase for what most people euphemistically call
 "meat") and 100% of the items have some animal products.  It was
 assumed for a long time that I would one day assume the business--that is
 until I learned some profound facts about DAF.  I pretty much converted
 when I learned that soybeans (a superior and highly efficient protein
 source) WERE ACTUALLY USED TO FEED CATTLE (exceedingly wasteful, whose
 end result was essentially 70% water and fat.)  Your point on a 
 vegetarian double standard is duly noted, Larry.  I hadn't thought of it
 like that.  Personally, I think that maybe vegetarians deserve such a
 double standard--after all, all of you people who eat DAF are
 indirectly responsible for a great many calamities and sufferings in
 this world.  However, upon deeper reflection, I realize that not long ago,
 I too ate DAF, and I certainly didn't change my eating habits because
 I was coerced into doing so.  I feel that only by realizing the true
 horrors behind DAF and OAP (other animal products) can lasting change
- - - - -
Feb16/94 23:34
21:131)  Mitchell:
 manifest itself.  (Please don't take umbridge on me for any comments
 made here.  If I offended anyone reading this, you have my humblest
 apologies.)  Thanx for reading.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 00:08
21:132)  Stephanie:
 There really is no reason to preach...those people who
 choose to eat meat  are going to do so because they enjoy it,
 even if they KNOW the environmental impacts.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 01:16
21:133)  Larry:
 I am truly surprised that people are somewhat supportive of my last
 response.  I argued the same thing with members of my co-op and, lets
 just say... all hell broke loose.  I think part of my views on
 vegetarianism is due to where I was brought up in Maryland, where 
 vegetarians are few and far between.  (This is where Lee tells me about
 how everyone he knows in MD is vegetarian and I look like an idiot ;)  )
 As for the flatulence thing, this all reminds me of a Dave Barry article
 about two years ago on the subject of cattle flatulence.  Is there a 
 solution to this... uh.... problem?  Maybe kaopectate or something.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 16:24
21:134)  Henry:
 I eat meat because of my metabolism and the calories it provides.
 Otherwise my stomach would disrupt afternoon lectures.  It also
 tastes better than anything on this planet.  I like chicken
 the most.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 19:03
21:135)  Monica:
 I too am a veggie but not for political reasons or anything, a couple years
 ago in Spain this fansy resturaunt put a pig with an apple in it's mouth
 on my table-it made me sick. From then on I haven't had meat. I do not condem
 people who eat it though. 
- - - - -
Feb17/94 20:33
21:136)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Larry, I agree with you.  I'm a meat eater, though I don't eat very much of
 it, but I reallyy like the taste.  Yes, I know it's dead animal flesh, but
 I still enjoy it. (Sorry, vegetarians.)   I think I see the problem with
 your co-op argument, though, Larry.  The problem is that meat eaters eat
 vegetables but vegetarians don't eat meat.  Having a meal without vegetables
 would be much more expensive (and not that good for you).  I lived in a 
 co-op, too, so I sympathize with your problem.  
 Vassoula, I'm sorryt o hear that about hot dogs.  I feed them to my dog
 everyday.  Of course, that may explain some things about her...
 Mitchell, regarding your "dead animal flesh" remark:  did you know that
 the word "meat" used to mean (in Old English) "food" in general?  INterest-
 ing change in meaning, don't you think?  ;)  But I am curious: as a vegan
 what exactly do you eat?  
 >what exactly do you eat? How do you get enough protein?
- - - - -
Feb18/94 03:06
21:137)  Lee:
 a couple of points to make:
  1) The question about getting enough protein is probably the second
     most common I get about being a vegetarian (the first is Why?)
     What people don't realize is that even without meat, or DAF as 
     Mitchell calls it, I still get plenty of protein.  Peanut butter,
     beans, etc.  all have plenty of protein.
     [Back me up on this Mitchell]
  2) A funny story on Larry's comment to me:
      My best friend goes to school at Princeton and is also a 
      vegetarian and also Jewish (I am too).  There is another girl
      from our high school in Maryland who went to Princeton, also
      a Jewish vegetarian--what a coincidence, and lived in the same
      dorm as my best friend.  After I visited him there a couple of
      years ago, one of his friends told him that he thought 
      everybody from Maryland was a Jewish Vegetarian.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 14:03
21:138)  Mitchell:
 Protein is not a worry for me: it's been proven in books like Diet
 for a Small Planet that if you get a sufficiently varied vegan diet
 (plenty of fruits, vegetables, legumes, and grains, accd. to the
 National Board of Sciences) with enough calories (also varies accd. to
 weight, sex, metabolism, etc.) that it's impossible NOT to get
 enough protein.  Even for people with special needs (growing infants,
 pregnant women, etc.) this diet is still well above sufficient.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 15:41
21:139)  Anand:
 Mitchell,you must understand that 1 hamburger is equivalent to twenty
 bowls of vegetalbes, legumes, and grains in protent content.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 20:28
21:140)  Jin Ho:
 I think it 's also important to remember that when people say vegetarian, we
 think automatically that those people mean they eat lettuce and a carrot for
 a meal. I guess what I'm getting at is the way we define "vegetables".  That
 can also mean beans, rice, potatoes, etc.  that are chalked full of protein
 and such.
- - - - -
Feb19/94 08:46
21:141)  Mitchell:
 Anand, you must understand that 1 hamburger is also equivalent to twenty
 bowls of vegetables, legumes, and grains in saturated fat, cholesterol,
 pesticides, and insecticides.  Plus when you consider that 1 pound of beef
 needs 5214 gallons of water to be produced, the wastefulness quickly
 becomes apparent.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:30
21:142)  Larry:
 Leonora, you are right.  However, there are an equivalent number of 
 members of the co-op who do not like vegetables at all (I am not one of 
 these) when compared to the number of vegetarians.  My problem with the 
 whole issue is essentially "Where does the house draw the line on being
 a sufficient dietary condition to warrant a special meal?".  If we offer 
 a vegetarian alternative, shouldn't we offer a kosher alternative... and
 a low-fat alternative... next thing we know everyone is getting their 
 own special meal.  If 6 people decide they don't eat meat, then they get
 their own meal.  How about if 6 of us decide we don't eat onions, do we
 get a separate meal every time onions are served?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:15
21:143)  Mitchell:
 Do realize, Larry, that there are a variety of vegetarian diets.  You
 could eat nothing except Twinkies, Coca-Cola, and Froot Loops and you
 would fulfill the requirements for being a vegetarian.  I believe that
 the issue is the optimum diet, one which involves a high amount of plant
 products (and some Red Star yeast to get that B-12).  From a 
 purely nutritional standpoint, meat has little to offer besides water
 and fat--which does us little good.  Ditto for milk and other dairy
 products, pretty much half fat; as well as eggs, high in cholesterol.
 The supposed nutrients we get from animal products (calcium from dairy,
 protein from meat) backfire on us humans since we don't need all that
 much protein and calcium to begin with, and the amount that we need is
 well within the parameters of plant nutrients.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 12:50
21:144)  Leonora Sanchez:
 But Mitchell, even though I could see myself giving up meat, I have a hard
 time imagining eating without including dairy products.  Many breads,
 biscuits and cakes are made with milk, and I like cheese too much to stop
 eating it.  (I only eat low fat dairy products, for the most part.)
 Larry, do you mean you never eat vegetables?  Not salads, or carrots, or 
 onions?  I don't think I could stop eating vagetables, either, althoguh 
 that Twinkie, Coke, and Fruit Loops diet sounds kind of intriguing...;)
- - - - -
Mar01/94 14:46
21:145)  Mitchell:
 Remember, Leonora, you could eat nothing but Twinkies, Coke, and
 Froot Loops and be a vegetarian, but do you think you would get all
 the nutrients you need?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 18:52
21:146)  Jennifer:
 If you don't eat dairy products too then what do you eat?  Also, why don't 
 you eat dairy products?  No one's killing cows to get milk.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 19:17
21:147)  Anand:
 Twinkies, Coke, Fruit Loops, and plants!
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:45
21:148)  Lee:
 Not quite Mitchell--Twinkies contain animal fat, so I don't consider
 them as part of a vegetarian diet.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 11:15
21:149)  Mitchell:
 I just gave Twinkies as an arbitrary example of a food with no meat, but
 still is far from nutritious.  True, cows aren't killed to obtain milk, but
 I don't eat dairy products because they are far from nutritious--50% of
 milk's calories come from fat.  The rhetoric that people say regarding
 milk's calcium is hogwash.  First off, you can obtain plenty of calcium
 from plants, like almonds, spinach, collard greens, and such.  Second,
 the calcium that does exist in milk is unfit for maximum use because of
 the high amount of protein (a deterrent to calcium) and because of the
 low level of phosphorus (an aid to calcium absorption).  Not to mention
 the ungodly amount of PCB's in Michigan milk since the 1975 PCB
 statewide contamination.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:39
21:150)  Larry:
 Leonora, my roommate does not eat *one* vegetable.  He won't eat lettuce
 even.  The closest we came to a veggie he eats is... ketchup.  I am being
 totally serious.  He eats at Burger King every night of the week.  I'm 
 not advocating this by any means (I actually think it is pretty disgusting 
 myself), but there are other members of the house that eat the same way, 
 but are just less extreme.  I guess where I have the problem with the whole
 idea of veggie alternatives is when the vegetarian diet becomes supposedly
 "correct", which is totally a matter of opinion.  I know Mitchell will say
 that it is "correct" for 77 nutritional reasons.  Obviously more than 6 
 members of our house hate broccoli, but we don't serve a broccoli alternative
 every night.  It seems like the politically correct movent (I'm 
 overgeneralizing here) has instilled this "vegetarians are at the top of
 the totem pole" philosophy  (that came out weird) that forces everyone
 to cater to them.  If it was up to me, we would have one meal at the house
 and if you didn't like it you could eat elsewhere, whether the meal was meat-
 oriented or not.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 14:15
21:151)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Mitchell, it is possible to eat dairy products that are low in fat.  As I
 said, I never eat high-fat dairy products.  Also, some of the alternatives
 you mention--nuts, inparticular--are high in fat as well.  No, I'm not 
 a fanatic about fat, but I try to keep a fairly low-fat diet.
 Larry, I agree with you. That's the reason I moved out of the coop after my
 first year--or one of them.  I can't stand to eat according to other people's
 schedules or other people's choices--at least not 100%of the time.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 15:52
21:152)  Henry:
 Mitchell, how have you been able to acquire so much valuable 
 nutritional knowledge?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 16:13
21:153)  Jennifer:
 All I have to say Mitchell is that having scoliosis, I am a high candidate
 for osteoperosis (did I spell that right?).  My doctor told me that the best
 thing to do for this is to make sure I drink plenty of LOW-FAT milk and eat 
 a lot of LOW FAT dairy products and maybe take some calcium supplements.  I
 don't like spinach, almonds, or collard greens, so otherwise I basically eat
 broccoli.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:26
21:154)  Jessie:
 I guess I'm pretty lucky.  I'm strictly carniverous (aside from 
 potatoes and corn) and I still have a low cholesterol count(knock on 
 wood)  I could never be a vegitarian.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 18:57
21:155)  Mitchell:
 The debate has rekindled in a big way.  Where to begin?  Larry, I was
- - - - -
Mar02/94 18:59
21:156)  Monica:
 Larry, not to be rude but is your roommate fat from eating all that bad food?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:19
21:157)  Mitchell:
 Oops, I accidentally said I was done on the last response.  Anyway, Larry,
 I feel that it is the destiny of the human race to desist the consumption
 of animals and animal products.  In fact, Leo Tolstoy said that "these
 are the ideas of the future...[to] free the slaves, to give equality
 to women, and to cease using flesh food."  This is no fad, this is our
 destiny, folks.  My personal feelings are for everyone to get on the band-
 wagon now, but I'm rambling.  Leonora, you mention being able to eat low-
 fat animal products.  But even low-fat milk is about 29% fat--still too much
 above the recommended level of about 10%, according to groups like WHO and
 NAS.  Regarding calcium alternatives, I just gave some random examples--
 more examples include onions (135 mg/3.5oz), hazelnuts (209), and 
 parsley (260).  Henry, books are the secret to omniscience.  Jennifer,
 it's spelled "osteoporosis" (close), and it doesn't surprise me in
 the least that your doctor gave that advice.  On the whole, doctors
 don't know much more about nutrition than the general population.  Only
 about a fifth of all the nation's medical schools offer a mandatory
 nutrition course.  And the average doctor receives only about 2.5 hours
 of nutrition training during 4 years of med school.  (it's taking me
 about 2.5 hours to write this reply, so it seems).  It's good your
 eating broccoli for calcium--it's got 123 mg/3.5 oz of calcium--a higher
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:19
21:158)  Mitchell:
 rate than even milk (115).  Jessie, don't take anything for granted.  You
 wouldn't believe that I wouldn't eat ANYTHING when I was a kid unless I
 was convinced it had hamburger in it.  (Whew! I'm done.)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 23:09
21:159)  Zachary:
 To each his own, toleration of different lifestyles has made America 
 what it is today!  Enjoy your freedom and eat whatever you like.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 14:27
21:160)  Karen :
 Allow me to second Zachary's praise for American civil liberties.
 Hurray for the selfishness and vested interest of the captains of
 industry. . . 
- - - - -
Mar04/94 01:15
21:161)  Larry:
 Monica, the scary thing is that my roommate is really thin, even though he
 has the aforementioned diet.  As for Mitchell, I've got to wonder how you
 know so much about nutrition too.  I'm very envious actually.  My concern,
 however, (I don't know if this applies or not-- this is not intended to be a
 personal attack by any means) is that many college students, including
 myself, tend to doubt "experts" due to the environment we are in. This is
 very good.  But many times we forget that the experts have become "experts"
 by studying and researching for years.  They are also surrounded by other
 "experts" with differing view, which allows the same exchange of ideas we see
 on campus.  We like to think that we know more about something than the
 experts, without any regard to how they got to be an expert.  You may have
 been a vegetarian for 5 years (I don't really remember), but these
 nutritional doctors you are doubting may have studied the same thing for
 twenty years.  We like to think researchers and experts just sit around alone
 in a room, without seeing the other side, but I think UM students are
 actually much more guilty of ignoring the other side.  Here's what I'm
 getting at... if milk is nothing but bad for you, why would a doctor (an
 expert) suggest it?  Surely, he must feel he knows something you don't.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 01:55
21:162)  Calvin:
 i heard that milk contains substance(s) which act as a sleep-promoter and the
 natural lactose is said to be good for the passage of food through the
 intestines
- - - - -
Mar04/94 09:28
21:163)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Mitchell, I have to disagree iwth you on the percentage of fat in dairy
 products:  skim milk has no fat--not 29%.
 But folks, I think a lot of us have gotten way off the topic here.  Please
 remember, we are *all* entitled to our opinions, and we have to accept
 the fact that other people are not always goign to agree with us.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 12:47
21:164)  Alana:
 I'd like to say another thing about the experts.  My mother is a dietitian
 and finds that many of the people who call themselves experts really aren't
 all that correct.  I mean it's possible that she could be wrong but I've
 brought some diets and other things home to show her and she dug out her
 books and showed me where the people are wrong.  SO, even within a group of
 professionals, there are differences in opinions.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 13:18
21:165)  Larry:
 Pretty scary that this was originally the Turkish item.  Talk about item
 drift (which I actually like).  I think Leonora is right about everyone
 being entitled to their opinion.  I see nothing wrong with a healthy 
 exchange of ideas.  Regardless, I'm going to back off a bit before everyone
 starts believing that I'm this mean, evil-spirited, veggie-hating, expert-
 loving ogre.  I'll still put in my two cents occasionally on some good 
 debates. :)
- - - - -
Mar04/94 14:04
21:166)  Mitchell:
 Larry, I have read many books on vegetarianism.  I am also a member of
 the vegetarian foundation EarthSave, and subscribe to Vegetarian Times
 magazine.  Right now, I have a copy of May All Be Fed: Diet for a New
 World, which says that skim milk has 2% fat (2% milk has 31% fat).  It
 looks like you're right, Leonora, but that doesn't encourage milk
 drinking in the slightest, because right next to fat, it lists the
 percentage of protein (28% for 2%, 41% for skim) which is WAY too much
 protein than humans need, and can thus lead to gall stones, kidney
 ailments, increased osteoporosis, and the like.  Actually, Larry, I've
 only been a vegetarian since Christmas 1992, and as for me doubting
 a doctor's orders, do realize that my opinion is not unfounded.  The
 books that I have read are thoroughly documented, so if I'm ever curious
 or skeptical, I can check out exactly where the evidence came from.
 I'm well aware of my own limits.  I was not being pompous when I was
 critical, I was honest.  I don't know exactly what said doctor's
 background is, so I can't and won't comment towards him or her.  I did
 address (or at least meant to address) the orders themselves.  Also 
 remember that a great deal of research goes into the books I have
 read.  Diet for a New America took well over a decade of research to
 write.  I agree with Alana, especially considering that nutrition is
 a comparatively new science, so breakthroughs and discoveries are being
 learned all the time.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 21:41
21:167)  Jin Ho:
 The answer Larry, is very simple... and it comes in a little green and white
 package with a funny man's face on it.  YES, IT'S MONEY.  Good old
 greenbacks. and they say that love makes the world go round. HAH! I laugh!
 Ok, enough being silly.  Anyways, most likely reason the doctors say they
 approve of milk drinking is because the American Dairy Association pays them
 to say that.t.  I think it's that mafia conspiracy thing again.  Yeah yeah,
 that's the ticket, the mafia's paying off the Dairy Association to pay off
 the doctor's. They're trying to poison us that's it! WE MUST REBEL!
- - - - -
Mar05/94 13:51
21:168)  Mitchell:
 Jin's comments aren't all that far off the mark.  The government
 branches (like the USDA) that determine the nation's dietary guidelines
 are heavily funded by the country's meat, egg, and dairy industries.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 16:18
21:169)  Katrina:
 Ever notice that now that the four basic food groups which we alol learned
 as kids has recently been changed to the food/nutritional pyramid.  That's
 what kids a learning now (and frankly its a hell of alot better than
 the old basic four) Mitchell is correct about who's running the show
 and supplying us with our dietary guidelines.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 18:09
21:170)  Mitchell:
 Even better than the food pyramid, Katrina, are the new four food
 groups designed by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine,
 consisting of whole grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits.  These new
 guidelines were announced in April 1991.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 21:07
21:171)  Larry:
 Do any of the people who read all of those anti-milk, anti-meat books ever
 read dissenting opinions?  Usually I find that when given two extreme 
 views on a topic, the truth is somewhere near the middle.  Also, I find
 that many UM students give very little credit to an argument's opposition.
 I see it all the time on campus.  Most arguments have two *legitimate* sides.
 One person may weight one side more than the other, and one might lean the
 other way. Rarely (and I think this is true in the Veggie case) do UM
 students acknowledge that both sides have legitimate points.  I see it all
 the time in Daily Editorials (I don't often admit I read them) on every
 issue... the code, abortion, affirmative action...  I think people can prove
 whatever they want to prove.  It is basic argumentative style-- prove your 
 point by discrediting the opposition... that is the most effective method
 of stating a case for an argument.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 21:16
21:172)  John Lawler:
 Depends on what you mean by "effective", I think.  If you're preaching to the
 converted, of course it's easy to be extreme.  But if you're really trying to
 convert people to your point of view, by far the most effective way to
 proceed is to listen very carefully to what your opponent says, and then
 *restate* what they say in your own words, if possible getting the opponent
 to agree that that's a fair statement of the position.
 
 *Then* you use that position as the opposition, and attack *it* -- and *not*
 straw men -- with your arguments.  If you do that, your opponents can't claim
 that you're not dealing with them, or that they were misquoted, or the usual
 bullshit.  And then they have to attend to your real arguments, and not their
 versions of what you said.  Who knows, both of you might actually learn
 something?
- - - - -
Mar06/94 21:56
21:173)  Monica:
 Just a small little comment, have any of you ever heard of the drug that 
 they are now giving cows to make them produce more milk?  I never realized
 we had a shortage of milk.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 08:58
21:174)  Stephanie:
 We dont.. But I guess farmers think that the more milk they produce, the
 more money they can make, whichis not necessarily true, considering 
 laws of supply and demand, but this type of hormone-induced production is
 really bad...both for the cows and for the people who drink the poorwe
 quality milk that thses cows produce. The whole situation I believe
 merits federal regulation. 
 On the issue  of proving a point, I believe that all of the people who
 have commented on the vegetarian issue have made good points, and those
 who are completely stuck in their ways are actually making less headway
 thatn those who are making concessions to the other side of the
 argument. I know that meat has a lot of "useless" things in it, but that
 does not mean that I will stop eating it and take up bean sprouts instead.
 I dont find myself eating much of anything these days, and I hardly
 ever touch meat, but I like having that option.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 11:57
21:175)  Tom:
 S.A.M.,I agree with you completely about your argument for federal regulation
 on milk production.  I'm not a person who normally feels that gov't
 intervention. is good.  But in this case where it probably costs the custumer
 more money because they are making us bear the expense of the drug.  Plus we
 are getting a lower quality milk product.  The only time that the use of this
 drug would be benificial when looking at the laws of supply and demand would
 be if there was an actual shortage.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 13:14
21:176)  Larry:
 I guess I got off on a tangent on "argumentative style" at the end of the
 last message.  My point remains that UM students (and college students as a 
 whole) love to turn arguments into "right" or "wrong", instead of treating
 both sides as plausible perspectives.  Rarely is there a "wrong" argument,
 which is true in the veggie case.  Health benefits most likely exist for
 meat-eaters and veggies, it is solely a matter of how an individual wants
 to weigh each benefit in their own mind.  As for the government conspiracy
 with dairy farmers, I really feel betrayed... NOT!!!
- - - - -
Mar07/94 13:18
21:177)  Lisa:
 Speaking of money and food ...Why is it that to eat healthy you have to
 be rich?  Everything low fat or extra-nutritional is about twice as 
 expensive.  All the poor people get big blocks of government cheese that
 feel like rubber, taste like rubber and couldn't possibly be good for you.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 14:31
21:178)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Just one more comment from me on diet:   my grandmother is 101 and still
 going strong.  She lives on cottage cheese and snickers bars.  When she
 was younger I never saw her touch a salad--she ate plenty of pork and beef
 and gravy and many other fattening foods.  So there's more to living 
 a long healthy life than diet, I'm convinced.  You all are free to eat
 what you want to eat, but I take the latest nutrition fads with a grain
 of salt.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 18:30
21:179)  Mitchell:
 Larry, I think that much of our culture is a dissenting opinion to any
 vegetarian tracts.  SAM's reply (174) has got me thinking: if it is
 possible to know about the problems of meat, yet continue to eat it, why
 is it that some people become vegetarians while others don't.  (If you
 want to become a vegetarian fast, visit a slaughterhouse, IMHO, although
 I've never been to one myself.)  Congratulations are due to your
 grandmother, Leonora.  However, (and  I don't mean to offend you or your
 grand mother, Leonora) but I think that examples of people who live such
 exceedingly long lives in animal-eating cultures are anomalies.  Remember,
 Leonora, that the longest lived societies in the world are vegetarian,
 not by coincidence.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 21:25
21:180)  Dawn:
 As far as living longer and healthier, genetics probably plays a huge
 part.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 22:05
21:181)  Stephanie:
 I think so. Mitchell, the reason that some people become vegetarians and
 others dont must be because vegetarians are so much smarter than the
 rest of us, and the rest of us are just stupid, and we dont
 take care
 of ourselves
- - - - -
Mar07/94 22:06
21:182)  Jin Ho:
 That's ok Larr, we forgive 'ya.  The gift of gab is not one to be denied!
- - - - -
Mar07/94 23:49
21:183)  Tara:
 WOW!  Well, first of all I think that it is fine to be a vegetarian and
 it's fine not to be.  Either way we are all exposed to health threatening
 things!  Besides we might all die getting smacked by a huge Mac truck.
 (I doubt that, so it's very irrelavent but (=  )  Anyway, the real point
 is that we are all totally free to choose what we eat (well, all except
 Larry)  but besides him.  So eat what you want to eat it's a personal 
 choice!  Also either way you need to watch your diet (if you want it to
 be heathly) - my uncle is a vegetarian and I don't know what he was eating,
 but somehow his cholesterol got way too high and so now he's is modifying
 his diet to change this.  (maybre you can tell- I'm not good with the 
 details)   (:  I can't spell either.   but bye
- - - - -
Mar08/94 12:51
21:184)  Leonora Sanchez:
 I agree with Tara.  We are unlikely to convince each other to become vege-
 tarians or not.  Besides, visiting a slaughterhouse might convince you not
 to eat meat, but I have never known any alughterhouse workers who became
 vegetarian.  It's like anything else--you get used to it.  Anyway, this
 is very much beside the point.  Knowing what I know about meat I will still
 continue to eat it, as I will continue to eat other things that are probably
 not very good for me. As for my grandmother, she is probably not an anomaly.
 Both my father's and my mother's family live long lives.  The tests
 linking diet and long lives or absence of cancer are still very tentative.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 19:11
21:185)  Mitchell:
 SAM, I must have been misunderstood.  I meant to ask: why do some people
 become vegetarians and others don't PROVIDED both said vegetarians and
 non-vegetarians know about the hideous circumstances surrounding much
 of today's meat?  Leonora, I don't think you just "get used to" working
 in a slaughterhouse--the occupation has the highest job-turnover rate
 of any occupation in the country.  Further, I have to disagree with you
 regarding the tentativeness of a diet/livelihood link.  There are
 THOUSANDS of articles and pages of information confirming a link, including
 a decade-long study recently completed in China--far from what I would
 call "tentative".
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:03
21:186)  Lida:
 I, myself, know about a lot of the circumstances of a non-vegetarian
 (oops, of being one, that is).  I know it can hurt the
 environment and my body.  So can driving cars, and so can being
 so stressed out worrying about what's good for you or not 
 that you get high blood pressure and turn into a grouch.
 I think life is too short to waste time being unhappy.
 If you're happier and feel better eating vegetables than beef,
 by all means, go ahead. Happiness is contageous.
 My great-grandmother was a very friendly and happy woman.
 She was not a vegetarian.  In fact, she sat on her front 
 porch and smoked her corn cob pipe all the time.
 She lived to be 104 years old.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:17
21:187)  Amy:
 AAAAIIIIIEEEEEE!!!! Too much argument about something that is a person's
 choice! I think it is interesting to here all these statistics and stuff...
 but, get real...you aren't going to change people's minds unless they WANT to
 change them...especially at a school like UM. I have been drinking milk since
 I was able to...and I will til I die..plain and simple. I won't live without
 it OR meat. I think thats great that you think it is wrong to eat meat
 Mitchell but, don't think that you can make us all buy your philosophy. ok?
 As for the rephrasing a question to suit your argument Prof. Lawler: it
 sounds suspiciously like a Socratic method of doing things....eh? :) Very
 tricky! My 2 cents
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:48
21:188)  Lee:
 I think that overall, I agree most with Mitchell.  I've been a vegetarian
 for about 5 years now (though I'm not vegan=I do eat dairy products). 
 I think most of Mitchell's arguments are exactly correct.  As for Larry
 saying that we ignore the opposition's pov, we used to BE the opposition.
 I ate meat most of my years growing up.  By what Mitchell said, he did too.
 I evaluated how I feld about animals, did a lot of research, and gave up
 meat.  I imagine Mitchell did the same, even if he did it more for health
 reasons.  What I'm saying is that I know many people who were meat-eaters
 and became vegetarian, but I don't know ANY people who were vegetarians
 and went back to eating meat (although I'm not saying there aren't any who
 did that, just that it is uncommon).  Also, the relationship between 
 diet and longevity are basically proven, and I agree that people who live
 long lives and have bad diets are the exception, and not the rule.  
 Certainly factors other than diet affect longevity, and that could be the
 reason for people living to be 101 or 104.
 In terms of the slaughterhouses, here's a quick story (I don't remember if
 I told it before).  My brother used to work for Kroger as a store manager.
 As part of his training on the meat dept., he had to see a lot of the 
 behind the scenes part of the meat processing.  During this portion of
 his training, he gave up meat--cold turkey (pun intended).  And this is
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:48
21:189)  Lee:
 the meat that you buy and eat.  Who knows where McDonald's gts its meat.
- - - - -
Mar09/94 15:03
21:190)  Stephanie:
 The little birds in the parking lot look conspicuously like mc nuggets
- - - - -
Mar09/94 15:22
21:191)  Karen :
 I am curious as to some of the arguments presented on this network---the
 nature and foundations being questionable. Quite a feww people have stated
 that being a vegetarian lengthens life---- this has been stated either
 directly or indirectly---as opposed to being omnivorous.  My question then
 is: is quantity synonymous with quality? Do a cost benefit analysis.  I would
 much rather die young (b/c I ate foods I found pleasurable) than to die old,
 but to have lead a strict, spartan life. Be careful when you define what is
 GOOD----there is NO objective good, and people differ widely on how one
 should live a lifetime.
- - - - -
Mar09/94 16:08
21:192)  Mitchell:
 You could easily presume, Karen, that vegetarian foods are just as
 pleasureable as meat and animal-based foods, perhaps moreso.  If that's
 the case, then the accumulated pleasure would be much greater, presuming
 of course that vegetarians live longer than animal eaters.
- - - - -
Mar09/94 20:36
21:193)  Rob:
 I have been reading this topic for a few weeks and I thought that I would
 finally give my opinion.  I think that no matter what you eat, it is not
 good. The bad stuff about meat has already been mentioned, but nobody has
 talked about the bad stuff concerning fruits and vegetables.  All the
 pesticides that are being sprayed on them is not doing wonders for our health
 either. No matter what you eat these days, there is some survey that says it
 can lessen your life span, cause cancer, etc.
- - - - -
Mar09/94 22:23
21:194)  Larry:
 With ya!
- - - - -
Mar09/94 22:36
21:195)  Mitchell:
 All the more reason, Rob, to buy organic, locally-grown foods wherever
 possible.  It's funny you mention pesticides, Rob; it so happens that
 beef has the highest concentration of pesticides and insecticides of any
 food you can buy.  This is so because cows are so high on the food chain,
 thus incurring accumulations of chemicals.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 09:19
21:196)  Stephanie:
 Does it seem to anyone else that we are arguing in circles? 
 ie GOING NOWHERE??
- - - - -
Mar10/94 11:10
21:197)  John Lawler:
 Yeah, pretty much.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 15:02
21:198)  Amy:
 Thank you stephanie!!!! I was just about to say that!
- - - - -
Mar10/94 15:34
21:199)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Sorry, Mitchell, but I've known two people who worked in slaughterhouses, and
 they were both meat eaters.  They were not my favorite people though. 
 However, my grandmother killed her own chickens and she stills eats meat. 
 Like I said, you get used to it.  At any rate, it's a different argument to
 say pesticides in meat are bad for yuou vs. meat itself is bad for you. The
 links between diet and long life are still largely unproven.  There are too
 many other factors involved to prove that it's a person's diet.
    But as Stephanie, Amy and numerous others have stated, we are going in
 circles. You're not goign to convinvce me to give up meat and dairy products,
 and I'm not interested in changing your eating habits.  Why don't we start
 another topic?!
- - - - -
Mar10/94 17:31
21:200)  Mitchell:
 I did not intend to convert you, Leonora, or anyone else to vegetarianism.
 I merely stated my view (which just happens to be support by tons of
 facts).  If anyone was enlightened by this admittedly-drawn-out argument,
 all the better.  But regardless, I do agree with you, Leonora, that it's
 time to move on.  (Incidentally, if anyone has any questions or concerns
 regarding vegetarianism, food, nutrition, etc., don't hesitate to contact
 me by private reply.)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 22    Jan16/94 16:07     1 line     33 responses
Jill                      
homework

 has anyone figured out all the homeowork yet

   33 responses
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:14
22:1)  Jake:
 Jill, Turkish is item 21.
 Either John will do the honors, or we can talk about the
 other bit of homework we have - the latin.
 Judgement from on High?
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:39
22:2)  Larry:
 I sat we leave this unfrozen for those who have questions about the 
 Latin assignment.  (oops... I meant 'say' not 'sat')  I wasn't too sure
 on what we were supposed to say for it.  Anyone else....
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:50
22:3)  Jake:
 I agree. This makes a good Latin item.
 I've found there are at least three cases that govern how you find
 the root out. Note, that the only differences in root will be from
 the nominative to other cases. In latin class, we learned the stem
 of a word is the genetive form, minus the genetive ending - in this
 case -is.
  
 The three cases (to determine root) seem to be:
 1: no change
 2: consanent shift: 'os' to 'or', 'ks to kt'
 (note, these changes tend to be common and "regularized" in latin)
 3: irregular form
 (which usually isn't, since the same change is made in many different
 words, but we don't have the information here to know that.)
- - - - -
Jan16/94 18:10
22:4)  Stephanie:
 The underlying roots on the Latin appear not in the nominative form, as
 with many Latin nouns, but in the genitive (and other) cases. But in
 Latin, the genitive case is used to decipher the declension # of the
 noun, as well as other things, while nominative generally indicates gender.
 In this excercise, I just made a list of the gloss, the underlying root,
 and the irregular nom. case. And then I said that the endings for the
 other cases are added to the root.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 20:36
22:5)  John Lawler:
 Is there any pattern to the consonant changes?  Any similarities
 you notice?  Oh, and by the way, don't forget what happened
 in the English and German examples.  There was some deletion
 involved, wasn't there?
 
 Is there an affix for the nominative case?
- - - - -
Jan16/94 22:03
22:6)  Mitchell:
 Question: When we are asked "What should be the underlying root form in 
 each case?" does "case" refer to nominative, accusative, etc., or does
 "case" refer to each noun (pleps, lapis, etc.).  And what EXACTLY are we
 supposed to hand in regarding this Latin assignment for Tuesday?  What is 
 expected of us?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 09:56
22:7)  John Lawler:
 In this case, "case" means "word".  OK?
 
 What I would like from you on Tuesday is a list of your proposals
 about underlying root form for each word, together with a short
 explication of why you made the choices you did.  The key word is
 *short*.  1 paragraph should do it, and the more clever you are,
 the more concise and pithy you can make it.  An epigraph is ideal,
 a paragraph if you must.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 11:30
22:8)  Calvin:
 What's the purpose of the colons in some of the Latin words?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 12:06
22:9)  John Lawler:
 A colon after a vowel indicates that the vowel is long,
 i.e, it really does take longer to say than a short vowel.
 
 Some languages, notably Latin and German, use phonetically
 long vowels to indicate a difference in words.
 
 You may be familiar with macrons (bars over the vowel) used to
 mark length; colons are lots easier to type.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 14:18
22:10)  Anand:
 I still seem to be confused as to what is an underlying root.  For example,
 in the English example autumn changes to autumanl, but you do not pronounce
 the "n" in autumn since it is silent.  So in old english, the "n" is deleted
 from the first column so is the underlying root for autumn (cremn) the c is
 backwards?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 14:51
22:11)  Larry:
 From someone who is kind of clueless on this thing too, I think we're
 making too much of it.  I would just list the roots and say why you 
 made these choices.  That's all he's looking for (I hope).
- - - - -
Jan17/94 14:57
22:12)  Jake:
 I'm making a list, showing the nominative form, what I believe is the root,
 and e brief description of how I got the root (like b->p before a
 consonant).
  
 After that, I'll write a short, paragraph synopsis.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 15:35
22:13)  John Lawler:
 Anand, the point is that the "underlying" root is, in fact, *NOT* the
 same (necessarily) as what we actually pronounce.  Just like the
 /au/ vowel in the second syllable of "pronounce" doesn't get
 said the same way in the second syllable of "pronunciation".  But
 you'd still like to say it was part of the root, wouldn't you?
- - - - -
Jan17/94 21:27
22:14)  Mitchell:
 Here's what I'm doing for the Latin assignment: I analyzed the ten
 Latin Words, and formed five rules which tell how the words adjust them-
 selves to various cases according.  I also included a one-sentence
 elaboration for every rule.
- - - - -
Jan17/94 22:37
22:15)  Anand:
 IF you  want to know, here's my method.  My method sorta follows off of
 Stephanie, in which I made 3 columns , "Gloss", "Nominative" and 
 "Underlying Root forms.  I divided the data into 2 categories: tangible and 
 intangible things.  Or two classes of grammer.  Using these 2 groups I found
 patterns in the consonant changes.  Finally, I simply wrote down why I chose
 those Underlying Root forms in the 3rd column.  It wasn't that hard, kinda
 interesting.  I'm finally starting to understand this!!!!! :->
- - - - -
Jan17/94 23:10
22:16)  Jake:
 MS, I got three categories of change:
 consonant change, consonant drop and long-vowel change.
 I has about two short paragraphs of other stuff.
  
 PS: I used the PalPhon font on this paper. Very nice.
 (Can you tell I'm having fun with my new toy?)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 19:53
22:17)  Sean:
 I am not sure exactly how many variations there are on the language we call
 "Latin", but I know that in every Latin dictionary published today, the 
 entry for "commoner" is plebs(Nom.),plebis(Gen.) [Note that the "b" remains
 in the Nominative form]. Looking back on these problems, I used my trusty
 Latin dictionary to see if the "plebs, plebis" thing was simply an exception
 to the proposed "change b to a p before a consonant" rule. What I found were
 numerous counter-examples to this proposed rule: including "urbs, urbis" (a
 feminine noun meaning "city"), among others. So, was "pleps" on the handout
 just a misprint, or are we dealing with some strange form of Medieval Latin,
 or are all of the dictionaries I saw outdated, or what?  Somebody PLEASE give
 me an answer somewhere down the line in this item's response list; I am very
 curious about the irregularities and exceptions of the Latin language (and
 Latin, in general, is actually very important to me in terms of my future
 career, coincidentally). Of course, I recognize the possibility that no one
 will even SEE this overly-long response, since I'm writing it so many days
 after the fact. Perhaps this was just a wasted effort, but I can still
 hope and pray...
- - - - -
Jan20/94 22:04
22:18)  Mitchell:
 It's "plebs" in my Latin dictionaries.  But you have a point, Sean.  
 Unless we get a ruling from Judge Lawler, it could be quite a mystery.
 I'll ask my Latin TA about the issue at the earliest opportunity.
 I'll keep you posted.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 08:16
22:19)  John Lawler:
 Latin is strictly a written (because dead) language now, and Latin
 dictionaries show spelling only.  However, we *know* that it was
 pronounced /pleps/ for a number of reasons.  Once again, don't confuse
 spelling with pronunciation.  They are not necessarily related in
 a regular, reliable way.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 16:48
22:20)  Tara:
 Sean, what is your future career?  Also half of those words on the latin
 problem weren't spelled the way you'd find them in the dictionary, just
 spelled the way you pronounce them.  I don't know if you care, but spelled
 Latin never uses 'y's.  
- - - - -
Jan23/94 17:36
22:21)  Sean:
 Tara, my career will be in Classical Archaeology, and a fair portion of my
 work in terms of the Roman part of it will involve making some sense out of
 the writings/inscriptions that I will come across (these inscriptions often
 leave out those "minor" and "unimportant" things like vowels and punctuation
 marks).  As for the use of "y" on the handout, I was willing to let that go
 as a variation on the "j", "y", "i" issue that most Latin students know of.
 Prof. Lawler, I find it very interesting that we can use linguistics to 
 speculate nowadays about how Latin was pronounced so many centuries after it
 had stopped being spoken - it really is quite fascinating.  And, for anyone
 who is interested, I recently found something out about the commonly-known
 "-re" ending of the Latin infinitive that is really strange. It seems that
 one of the rules of "old" Latin was that an "s" between two vowels would be-
 come an "r"(like in corpus, corporis - the underlying form is now assumed to
 have been corpos!). So, it seems that the infinitive ending is really
 "-se" and the only reason common verbs like "amo, amare" are not "amo, amase"
 is the "s to an r between 2 vowels" rule.  When you apply this theory to the
 irregular verbs like "sum, esse", they really appear to now be REGULAR verbs.
 Pretty weird and funky stuff, eh? 
- - - - -
Jan23/94 18:03
22:22)  Stephanie:
 When I learned Latin, I learned the infinitive form with both -re and
 -se. But then, my teacher was probably alive when they spoke it, 
 so I guess he would teach me whatever way was older.
 Also on a Latin note, I know that there are two pronunciations  in
 latin, particularly in the -ae ending. (either like the English I
 or the English A) Is either one more correct?
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:38
22:23)  John Lawler:
 Yup, Sean, that's right about /s/~/r/ in Latin.  The rule is
 called "rhotacism" (from the Greek letter rho).  You get it in
 Latin borrowings; adhere - adhesion, and it was quite common
 in the original.
 
 As for the pronunciation, there are two common ways.  Latin was
 widely spoken in Europe for 1500 years or more, and its pronunciation
 was quite different in the different places it was used.  In Italy,
 especially, it became the modern Italian dialects, and the pronunciation
 of the Latin of the Papal court, and thus of the Church, was virtually
 identical to that of Modern Italian.  And so it has remained in the
 Church.  This was the standard and only pronunciation of Latin widely
 accepted until about 150 years ago.  In this variety, "ae", "oe", and "e"
 are pronounced the same, "c" is pronounced like English "ch" before
 "i", "e", "ae", or "oe", and "v" is a fricative, like English /v/.
 
 However, about the middle of the last century, the historical linguists
 began reconstructing vulgar Latin, the parent of all the Romance languages,
 and in the process figured out what *had* to be the pronunciation of
 Latin in classical times.  In this pronunciation, now the one taught
 in most non-Catholic schools, "oe" is /oy/, "ae" is /ai/, "v" is /w/,
 and vowel length is quantitative.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:35
22:24)  Larry:
 I'm surprised how many people on this confer know Latin!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 16:23
22:25)  Sean:
 Now that I think about it, if linguists used all of the information they
 have today about phonetics and pronunciation, I suppose that their guess
 as to how Classical Latin was pronounced should be taken as being very close
 (if not exactly on the money) to the way it really was.
 As for the pronunciation of Church Latin, I think that it is not so far off
 from Classical Latin as some other variations (pronouncing "soft" vowels,
 for example, is really not so much of digression from the Latin of Ancient
 Rome).  If you want to see an example of a truly strange European variation
 on Latin, find a copy of a set of songs called "Carmina Burana" set to
 music by a composer named Carl Orff.  The text is a BAVARIAN Latin that is
 not only thought to have been pronounced with a Bavarian "flair", but that
 also actually incorporated regional vocabulary words into the common Latin
 set of vocabulary.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 16:23
22:26)  Tara:
 That's really neat about the 's' changing to an 'r' between vowels.
 I think that's a good practical application of all the stuff we're figuring
 out in class.  :)     Latin is the only language I know and so if any one
 else knows something interesting about it, let me know.  Also, is the
 letter supposed to be a 'j' or an 'i'?  What's the story behind that?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 17:19
22:27)  John Lawler:
 "I" was the only thing the Romans (who invented our alphabet) had.
 If it was between two vowels, it was obviously a consonant, and
 was pronounced as a "y" (i.e, a very short "i").  If it wasn't
 betwee two consonants, it was pronounced as a vowel.  This was OK
 until the two usages diverged, and then the habit arose of writing
 a "long I" (i.e, with a tail on it -- a "j") when it was not a vowel.
 This is the European value of "j" -- check out German, Swedish, or
 Finnish, for instance, where it means what we think of as "y".
 
 In English and some other languages, a further divergence occured,
 in which the "y" sound became a *real* consonant, a "d" plus "zh",
 as in "judge", and the "j" symbol was used for that.  Then the "y"
 letter, which came from Greek (Spanish name for the letter is "I
 griego", meaning "Greek I") was used for the semi-vowel, and that's
 what we have in modern English.
 
 Much the same thing happened to the *other* high vowel, except that
 two letters were invented, instead of one invented and one borrowed.
 The Romans had "u", which was "w" or "u", like "y" or "i".  The
 consonant that developed was "v", and "w" (note the funny name:
 "Double-U") was invented for the semi-vowel.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 16:37
22:28)  Sean:
 An interesting note on the "v", "w", "u" issue in Latin is that the Romans
 used the "V" (really two straight lines like this: \/) in inscriptions
 instead of "U" because the "V" is easier to inscribe on stone.  And so, the
 "v", which was developed from "u", as Prof. Lawler pointed out, is pronounced
 as the "w" sound that "u" sometimes represented (at least it is in Classical
 Latin classes, nowadays).
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:10
22:29)  Tara:
 Cool, thanks!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:28
22:30)  John Lawler:
 It always amuses me that what Julius Caesar *really* said when he
 intoned the famous quotation that is translated as "I came, I saw,
 I conquered" -- pretty macho words -- sounds horribly wimpy by
 modern American standards.  It looks like this in Latin spelling:
   VENI, VIDI, VICI
 but in terms of pronunciation, since Latin "V" is really [w] and
 Latin "C" is really /k/, and all the vowels are long, was:
   /we:ni, wi:di, wi:ki/
 This doesn't sound very macho, does it?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:39
22:31)  Dawn:
 for some reason I remember one of my junior high teachers saying that
 it was pronounced Beni, Bedid (Bedi), Bici.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:40
22:32)  Tara:
 HA! I think that is so true.  And that was always quoted in my
 Latin classes.  It sounds like kids' talk today!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:44
22:33)  Tara:
 Dawn, if your teacher told you that, he/she :)  was mistaken.
 Bye


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 23    Jan16/94 16:14     2 lines     2 responses
Jill                      
work

 i am working on the homework and have some questions
 write back if you want to discuss -jill

    2 responses
- - - - -
Jan16/94 16:17
23:1)  Jake:
 Jill, type c item.
 At the prompts, type item # (23) and then "freeze"
 Thank you.
- - - - -
Jan16/94 20:37
23:2)  John Lawler:
 I'll do it.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 24    Jan16/94 16:24     1 line      1 response 
Jill                      
jake

 jake-you seem to be a know it all did you get all thwe (oops) homwork right

    1 response
- - - - -
Jan16/94 18:11
24:1)  Stephanie:
 tee hee


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 25    Jan18/94 15:01     1 line    133 responses
John                        Prime=9
general question

 Do we need to respond to every item, what if we don't have anything to say?

  133 responses
- - - - -
Jan18/94 15:36
25:1)  John Lawler:
 No. Nor do you need to start an item to ask a question.
 There is already an item for discussing Confer (item 2).
 
 As for whether you have anything to say, time will tell.
 
 I'll wait and see if this item gets a life; otherwise I'll
 freeze it.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 16:15
25:2)  Amy:
 I love Professor Lawler's way of putting things. Get a life please! ;)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 17:04
25:3)  Jake:
 I'm not going to contribute anything here, because if I did, one would
 assume I'm vouching for this item, which I'm not, so, as I said, I'm
 not going to post anything here. Thank you.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:14
25:4)  Tom:
 I'm just figuring the confer thing out so just stick with me.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:41
25:5)  Lida:
 John, or you could respond to everything , whether what you had to say was
 relevent or not. Right, Jake, (All in good fun)
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:59
25:6)  Jake:
 Smiley'd work better, LB, imho.
 But I don't know what you're talking about.
 I keep my responses relavant when they need to be relevent - like in
 the homework items. Other places, where conversation has disintergrated
 into blah, I respond as I see fit - generally following the topic of
 discusion, but usually from my weird perspective.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 14:58
25:7)  Larry:
 Am I going to have to mediate again?
- - - - -
Jan20/94 15:19
25:8)  Jake:
 No. As soon as i convince everybody I'm God, we'll all get along
 fine ;-)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:42
25:9)  Tom:
 Jake you can forget about being succces full of convincing everyone of that.
 :)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 16:43
25:10)  Larry:
 That'll be a long time.  You better have a good argument lined 
 up for that one, Jake!  :)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 17:19
25:11)  Jake:
 Sure. I created the universe. I made all the birds and animals.
 I made Adam and Eve (brats) etc etc.
  
 If you don't believe me, talk to my son. :-)
 (Disclaimer: I'm just having fun, not being sacriligious, so don't even
 _think_ about flaming me). :-)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 18:53
25:12)  Amy:
 Thats funny stuff Jake (npote sarcasm...and bad typing on my part)
 ;)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 19:48
25:13)  Stephanie:
 You wish, Jake. (and I dont see how that could NOT be considered sac-
 religious, but I am not going to "flame" you for it)
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:33
25:14)  Monica:
 Monica
 Oh Jake what would this confer ever so without you?????????????
- - - - -
Jan20/94 20:55
25:15)  Jake:
 BBoring?
 Dull?
 Unenlightened? Stuck in the mud. Over the hill. Trapped. Hopeless.
 Crossed the Bar (for you poets). Still in neutral etc etc.??
- - - - -
Jan20/94 22:07
25:16)  Mitchell:
 Jake is to this conference what Reagan is to the Democratic party.
 (Grin, sarcasm, etc.)
 We await the frigid (pun!) powers of John Lawler.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 11:39
25:17)  Larry:
 As for the answer to "What would this confer be without Jake?".
 I propose it would simply be "half the responses".  Seriously, Jake,
 do you live on this thing?  How do you have time to come to class?
 And as for your "I am God" stuff, maybe you should start your own
 religion... Jakeism... where you and your followers (or 'follower' as it
 may be) sit around and worship a Mac SE.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 12:47
25:18)  Jake:
 Hey, that's a mac IIsi!
 Like I said before, I'm a computer geek. Can't get enough.
 Of course, 5 mmonths ago, I was a technology-hopeless hick
 from Cornfield, Ohio, so I got some catching up to do.
  
 But with all the papers I have to write, as well as the newsgroups I'm
 subscribes to and the mailing lists I'm on, its amazing I have
 anytime whatsoever off the computer.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:27
25:19)  Tom:
 Actually,Larry I think that there would only be a bout of the responses if
 Jake wasn't  on confer.  Jake I'm also from a hick town but I don't use it
 as an excuse to "monopolize" the confer responses! ;)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:33
25:20)  Jake:
 Who says I monopolize? You're perfectly free to give up your social
 life and stay online as long as I. :-)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:52
25:21)  John P:
 why cornfield, ohio?  why not cornfield, michigan?
 ohio is *not* a hick state.  (i'm from cleveland, thank you.)
 
- - - - -
Jan21/94 16:56
25:22)  Amy:
 Bitter are we JP Jr? :)
- - - - -
Jan21/94 17:54
25:23)  Jake:
 Cleveland? CLEVELAND? C_L_E_V_E_L_A_N_D!!!!
 (not Cornfiel, MI, cause I don't come from MI)
 OK. Ohio isn't a hick state. Compared, to, say, West Virginia.
 And, tbh, my home towm wasn't hicktown - but it was surrounded
 by hicktowns. And corn. Lot's of corn. I _hate_ corn.
  
 My old joke about Cleveland used to be:
 The closest foreign country to the US is Cleveland.
 C'mon. My brother went to college in Cleveland. I _know_
 cleveland. It may be a city, but it has _way_ less culture than
 A^2.
 And, of course, Cleveland had more culture than my home town.
- - - - -
Jan21/94 19:03
25:24)  Dawn:
 I'm from ohio!  I'm sure no one cares but can anyone else from ohio 
 just say so -- simply curiosity sake, but I don't know that many
 people from my home state.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 00:13
25:25)  John Lawler:
 I think Ohio is pretty high in rank for states of UM students,
 Dawn.  Just as Michigan is at lots of the Ohio colleges; that's
 something very prestigious about Ohio, folks.  They're known for
 having *tons* of good small colleges; practically a state-wide
 industry.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:16
25:26)  John P:
 jake:
 
 i have to disagree about cleveland having less culture than a2.  i miss my
 orchestra, i miss good-quality coffee shops, i miss my art museum and my
 contemporary art center.  i miss the cleveland public theatre which is one
 of the finest performance art centers in the country.  if you're slamming
 cleveland for culture, than i can firmly say that you do not know cleveland.
 
 there are good things about a2 as well, mind you.  but almost anyone who's
 ever lived in cleveland recently has good things to say about it, unless
 you go out of your way to find excessive problems.  
 
 go dawn!  anybody else from ohio besides us?
 
 amy:  please don't call me jr.  it makes me feel like: 'john polito, new
 ranch flavor.'  :)  thanks.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:21
25:27)  Jake:
 Here's what I _don't_ miss about Cleveland (and yes, we can argue about
 this forever. Let's not, shall we?)
 1: The high crime rate
 2: High pollution
 3: Dirty lakes
 4: excessive poverty.
  
 Maybe you grew up in Shaker Heights? The inner city in Cleveland is a mess.
  
 (Actually, if I were you, I'd prefer 'Jr'
 "The Second" makes you sound too ... stuck up.)
 But that's just my opinion. Don't take it personally: that's not how I
 meant it. :-)
- - - - -
Jan23/94 13:17
25:28)  John P:
 actually, it's not 'the second'
 
 it's 'two.'  like the number.  :)  i don't like 'the second' either. 
 that's why the arabic numeral.
 
 sorry to yell, jake, but it's easy to get angered by cleveland-bashing.
 no offence meant.  i grew up in bay village but i went to high school in
 the middle of ohio city (w.30 and lorain, right by the west side market),
 so i'm not a stranger to the real cleveland, which has gotten a lot better.
 
- - - - -
Jan23/94 15:51
25:29)  Larry:
 All of this Ohio stuff is making me ill.  There is a reason
 everyone and there cousin makes fun of Cleveland, Jake.  I can 
 actually smell Cleveland and Toledo as I drive by it on the 
 turnpike. (Having some grammar problems today).  Any state without
 a NHL hockey team isn't worth living in anyway.  
- - - - -
Jan23/94 18:05
25:30)  Stephanie:
 Not stuck up, Jake, dignified. (but since it doesnt matter anyway, I
 wont press the point)
- - - - -
Jan23/94 19:00
25:31)  Jake:
 Isn't it the same thing, SAM?
 (not to press the point :-) )
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:49
25:32)  Kiran:
 I agree with Larry. Cleveland really does smell.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 10:15
25:33)  Jessie:
 Hey Larry, With the way the NHL is expanding, Ohio could have a 
 team real soon.  Wouldn't you want to be the first kid on your block
 with a Cleveland, Mighty Skunks jersey? or how about a new Toledo
 Smelly Ferrets jacket with matching hat. (Both of those places
 really DO smell!!, Sorry all you Ohio-gander-oosir-anian-landers)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:39
25:34)  Larry:
 That would be cool, Jessie.  They could be the first teams in
 the NHL with scratch-n-sniff jerseys.  It's also a great way
 to keep other players out of the goal crease too.  Just like the 
 Orlando Magic and Miami Heat in the NBA, the new NHL franchise
 in Columbus could be the Columbus Reek.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:43
25:35)  Tom:
 I agree I would not prefer to live in Clevland.  Larry I think your example
 of Ohio hockey teams is hilarious.  But could you actually image them 
 winning anything.  Look at the Clevland Indians is tha a sad sight to
 watch or what?  The only part of Ohio that is at all to my likings is
 Cincinatti.  And that is probably because Kings Island is there.  Plus
 your also close to leaving the state!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 12:16
25:36)  Tom:
 That is great Larry.  The only problem is who would actualy buy them? 
 But I suppose that some of those people from ohio who missed the smell
 of home would purchase them.  But then again who would make them.  Who
 would be willing to withstand that bad smell.  The pay would have to be
 a ton how about a thousand dollars an hour.  But that might not be
 enogh money!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 13:27
25:37)  Scott]:
 Been to Ohio.  Yup. Dirty. Scummy. INDUSTRIAL.
 Yes, Ann Arbor is cafe central, but not a mecca for pseudo-intellects.
 I prefer Mich. to Ohio any day. I'm not referring to my likes and dislikes in
 pro sports, I'm referring to quality of life.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 14:54
25:38)  Dawn:
 What is with the OHIO bashing?  
- - - - -
Jan24/94 15:10
25:39)  Henry:
 I only like Minster Ohio (for its E2-400 Hevi-Stamper).  Nothing else.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 17:20
25:40)  John Lawler:
 Let's cool the Ohio/Michigan stuff, OK?  They're both cold in
 the winter and hot in the summer, and they both have good sports
 teams.  Let's leave it at that.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 18:38
25:41)  Amy:
 Hey, sorry to offend you J.P 2....
 I have friends in Akron OH and I don't appreciate them being lumped in 
 with people that are supposedly hicks...BTW, I don't think anyone from
 Ohio is a hick. And, might I suggest that we may be a little bit bitter to
 Ohio because of this stupid rivalry we have with OSU?? Just a thought.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 01:16
25:42)  John P:
 would y'all please stop bashing ohio or i will have to 'forget' this item,
 because i don't need to read it if you're just trashing my town and my
 state.  please show some consideration... maybe reread the etiquette
 rules that john so kindly posted.  thank you.  jp2
 
- - - - -
Jan25/94 12:09
25:43)  Jake:
 Don't get all bitter, jp2. Their just having fun.
 Having travelled a lot, I can tell you one place is just as
 boring as another. Artificial boundaries like "state lines"
 are great for politicians and rednecks but have no meaning
 whatsoever. Just my $.02.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 16:14
25:44)   Lisa:
 Ever since we've been talking about phonology, I've had a feeling I'm
 pronouncing words terribly wrong, like I'm getting my the's and the's
 all mixed up or my z's and s's all mixed up.  Does any one else get
 this feeling?  I'm having this paranoia in English and in Spanish
 if I talk to my parents.  I think it's something like that 
 phenomenon when you take abnormal psychology and you think you have 
 all the symptoms for a pathological obsessive/compulsive personality
 or schizophrenia or something like that.  
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:02
25:45)  Margaret:
 Lisa, you are so politically correct...nice change of topic!!!!  But to 
 continue with your thought, I totally feel that way.  After I lived in
 Japan, I came back with a strange, english-japanese-mispronounce every
 word-accent, that I don't think I have ever lost.  I say things strangely
 now.  And after I took a semester of German, it has become much worse.
 But I also form my sentance structure unnaturally because I think of 
 how sentences are formed in japanese, and I speak like that. People
 must think there is something wrong with me...!!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:14
25:46)  Tara:
 See, Latin's the key, you don't need to speak it!  :)
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:34
25:47)  John Lawler:
 The phenomenon you mention is very common, Lisa, and it will pass in
 a little while.  I call it "becoming aware of your tongue".  It's a
 pretty strange experience to be confronted with exactly how complex
 something you take for granted every day really is.  Not only that,
 to have to *analyze* it.  Don't worry, it's harmless and leaves no
 lasting scars, not even waxy yellow buildup.
 
 It *can* occasion undue anxiety, though, if you worry too much about it.
 Incidentally, you (and the other students in the class who are bilingual)
 should know that being bilingual is a blessing.  I wish *I* was that
 lucky; I had to learn my languages the hard way and I'm frankly not all
 that good at them.  I say this not only to inform you that I'm jealous,
 but also because American society has a lot of really silly ideas about
 language, some of which you will all unlearn this term (I hope).  One
 of them is that being bilingual can damage your mental health or
 something.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 22:47
25:48)  Mitchell:
 Right you are, John.  I was fortunate to grow up in a bilingual
 household myself (English and Polish)  Unfortunately, although
 I can speak some Polish, I lost much of it when I started attending
 school.  I hope I can regain it back one day.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 07:12
25:49)  John Lawler:
 It comes back, like riding a bicycle.  You fall off a few times,
 but after a while it's just like new.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 12:20
25:50)  Tom:
 Margaret,I can fully understand the problems of speaking Enlish when you retu
 -ed from Japan(Nihon).  I also had this problem.  But not only in my speaki
 but also in my writing.  I was told by my English teacher that I wrote in
 more "correct" English before I left for Japan than after I returned.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:19
25:51)  Margaret:
 Tom, luckily now that it is going so much worse, I don't have any english
 classes, but talk to me next winter when I (hopefully) return from Japan,
 I'll be taking my junior/senior writing requirement soon after...I don't
 find many UM teachers sympathetic to grammer problems of this nature!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:48
25:52)  Nicholas:
 I learned to speak both French and English at the same time, when I first
 started talking. My parents both sticked to their own mother tongue. The
 result of this is that I, too am very bilingual. But I did not grow up
 in a bilingual society, I grew up in France. So when I came here for
 school my French was slightly better than my English. But now they're
 problably at the same level. My point Tara is that I can totally identify
 with the problem you mention. But it's a unique problem which is well
 worth going through! :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 22:31
25:53)  Melissa:
 For you people complaining of making grammar mistakes by mixing up
 two different languages, try taking two different languages with
 two different , but just annoyingly similar, to cause many slip-ups.
 Last term, I kept slipping into the Cyrillic alphabet in the middle
 of my Italian notes!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:32
25:54)  John Lawler:
 Boy, that's the truth.  When I learned Yiddish (which is a High
 German dialect), I destroyed my German accent for a couple of
 years.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 11:13
25:55)  Lee:
 Same thing--when I used to speak a bit of Hebrew, I was told by many
 Israeli teachers that I spoke it with an "authentic" accent.  But once
 I started studying spanish in school, all of my Hebrew accent disappeared
 and I was speaking Hebrew with a spanish accent.  I wasn't too pleased.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:15
25:56)  Melissa:
 Yeah, you people should hear me try to pronounce a French "r".  I roll it
 to death, somewhere between Russian and Italian.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:23
25:57)  Larry:
 Am I the only one who doesn't speak 43 foreign languages?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:35
25:58)  Jessie:
 No Larry, I know some spanish. (Which translates to "I know how 
 to say some meaningless phrases that involve colors, relatives,
 rooms of the house, and various pieces of furniture")  Which will
 come in handy if I ever need to say "my brother is in the bathroom
 with the orange bed"  As you can see, 4 years of high school spanish
 and 2 years of university spanish really taught me a lot.  The scary
 thing is that I got all A's and B's.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:38
25:59)  Amy:
 *laugh* I know exactly what you mean Jessie and Larry. Never fear...you are
 not alone! :)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:42
25:60)  John Lawler:
 You should have taken the RC language courses.  Learn or die. :-)
 RC students all complain about how hard they are, but they work.
 The plain fact is that learning a language is very hard work for
 an adult and it takes an incredible amount of time and practice.
 
 Kids just play, but then they don't have to appear competent.
 If we could get away with what little kids do, we'd learn Spanish
 a whole lot faster.
 
 On the other hand, it's worth going through it.  It's not often
 you get a chance to build a new personality for yourself; but that's
 what you do when you learn another language.  Since all people know
 about you they learn through your talk, how you talk *is* who you
 are.  And inevitably, the nuances you'll learn to use in another
 language impress people differently from the way you speak your
 native language.
 
 I'm told, for instance, that I come off very dignified in Spanish,
 which strikes me as hilarious.  All it means is that I talk like
 a textbook, but that's valued a lot more in Mexican society than
 it is here.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:47
25:61)  Margaret:
 I was going to take intensive Japanese, but I was told that they try to 
 cram so much Japanese into such a short amount of time, that it isn
 (oops) isn't beneficial.  Can anyone take RC language courses, or do you
 have to be in the RC?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:57
25:62)  Larry:
 I took Spanish until I had nothing left but classes titled like 
 '12th century Uruguayan Prose' and stuff like that.  That's when
 I called it quits.  I've actually been told by native speakers
 that I have very little accent in Spanish tanks to Spanish 358--
 Conversational Spanish(with a lot of pronunciation).  If anyone
 is interested, it is a great course with not a lot of work.  Tests
 consist of reading text into a tape recorder (I'm not kidding).
 Jessie, at least you can say "My aunt sleeps on the orange bed in
 the den".  :)
 \
- - - - -
Jan27/94 20:14
25:63)  Jill:
 I took Spanish all throughout high school and here too.  I also am in
 Russian.  I took a few years of Hebrew when I was younger but I forgot most
 of it. My dad teaches me Yiddish on the side which I really enjoy learning.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 22:08
25:64)  Jennifer:
 Don't worry Jessie.  My knowledge of French (4 years in high school) is about
 as extensive as your Spanish.  I should have continued here, but I decided I
 liked Japanese just a tad bit more.  Oh well.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 12:58
25:65)  Tom:
 I can speak a little bit of Japanese and French.  My Japanese has 
 become extreamly limited since I no longer get the chance to practice
 it often.  I used to be able on a conversation for an hour or two.  
 But now I am lucky if I can do it for more than a couple of minutes.
 Most of the Japanese that I still remember is the slang from the
 Hiroshima Prefecture and a little slang from the Yamaguchi Prefecture.
 I learned most of this from my host brother and our friends from high
 school.  Has anyone else been an exchange student before?  Did you 
 stay with a host family?  Don't you thing being submerged in every
 day life made it easier to pick up more of the language?  And do you
 have any funny stories?
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:53
25:66)  Katrina:
 I also spent several months in Japan, mainly in the Shiga
 region but also some time in Fukuoka and Osaka.  My biggest
 problem upon my return was that I spoke way to fast in English
 because I got in the habit in Japan of speaking very quickly
 in order to keep my host family from listening in on phone 
 conversations.  I also used monosyllabic words which sounded
 very child-like.
 FUNNY STROY For those Japanese speakers out there who will find 
 this rather amusing.  I was asked what kind of food I liked to
 eat, and being a fast food junkie Taco Bell is my favorite. My 
 reply to the question was "TACO".  Much to my surprise that 
 night when I was fed a huge, grotesque octopus for dinner.  The 
 punchline is... The Japanese term "TAKO" is octopus.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 15:17
25:67)  Calvin:
 Katrina, your host family was actually listening on your phone conversation?!
 That's rather...invasive, I should say.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 16:21
25:68)   Lisa:
 Hey John, the reason you sound so dignified in Mexico is because all
 the people either speak the common (vulgar) way or the other way, which
 is the educated way (in other words, you don't drop syllables  and do
 things like say pa'lla for por alla).  My aunt married this rich mayor
 and all her kids and their kids criticize my Spanish because I speak
 like the "gente corriente".  My response to that is "OK now it's 
 English time" and they all shut up.  It's amazing how people use
 language as a gauge of intelligence and education. That's why I'm
 going into bilingual education.   *** on a different note, I finally
 learned from that Spanish exercise the reason for the different
 sounding d's.  When I was in high school, I took Spanish with a gavacha
 friend of mine (gavacha=gringa, for those of you who don't know the
 tejano/norteno dialect), and she was pronouncing the d wrong in some
 word like acostado or something like that.  I heard the mistake and
 told her "no you pronounce the d in Spanish kind of like a th", to 
 which she responded "So you're telling me I'm supposed to say "thonthe"
 for "donde"."  She thought I was trying to trick her, but since I didn't
 know the rule, I just said "well, you just know when to do it.  When it
 sounds right you do it."  I'm going to make a great teacher don't you
 think?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:02
25:69)  Vassoula:
 I agree that you don't learn a language by
 takibg a few years of it in high school.  Going to the 
 country and being forced to spoak it helps you learn it.
 However, I was fortunate enough to be born in Greece.  Thus
 even at home we speak Greek.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:05
25:70)  Jill:
 i think the best way to learn a language is to visit the country or talk it. 
 You can learn all the grammar and vocabulary but applying and using it is the
 best way.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 18:41
25:71)  Alana:
 I agree with you Jill.  I spent a summer with a family in Finland and picked
 up enough of the language to be able to understand a little and speak just a
 little too.  Languages are not that difficult to learn if one is thrust into
 that environment and forced to speak it.  It's fun too!  :-)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:11
25:72)  Jin Ho:
 Getting vack to that exchange student question, I was an exchange
 studet(oops) to Iceland .  And if ou think other languages are diffucult, try
 learnng Icelandic.  They say words like "etl" where you're tongue can't
 mofv(oops) to0far f (oops! I really ca can't get the hang of typing on this
 tithing) too far from where it made the "t".  So you get anaa nasal 'L".
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:40
25:73)  Monica:
 Monica
 I too am in Spanish yet I am not so swell at it. I would really like to go 
 abroad there through a Michigan program.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:37
25:74)  Lee:
 I kind of wish I had been able to do some sort of study abroad thing to
 improve my spanish (when I did speak it ok).  Oh well!  Too late now.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 23:29
25:75)  Henry:
 Going to Spain *really* helped me improve my Spanish grades way back when.
 I agree that living in a foreign country is the best way to learn a new
 language. Also you can have a lot of fun doing it.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 01:12
25:76)  Melissa:
 To Margaret and anyone else who is wondering: yes, people who aren't
 in the RC can take RC intensive languages, *but* it's often impossible
 to get in, because RC students have priority-*always*.  This is 
 usually no problem for Russian and German, but I've had many a non-
 RC friend get turned down for French and Spanish, much to their 
 dismay.
 To Prof. Lawler: I decree loudly to anyone who will listen, the 
 benefits of intensive language courses in the RC.  True, my life
 was Russian-hell for two terms, but the amount I learned is 
 absolutely incredible!  I am now in LSA Russian, and I am not 
 learning much to speak of--it's all busy-work, and not much
 substance.  I've, regrettably, lost a lot of my speaking proficiency.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 09:04
25:77)  John Lawler:
 Lee (re:74), it's *not* too late.  Learning a language is like
 learning to ride a bicycle.  If you've done it once, all you need
 to do is get back on and fall off a few times.  So go right ahead
 and travel, when you get the chance.
 
 There's no doubt that the best way for an adult to learn a language
 is to go where it's spoken and cope.  Preferably in a place where
 there aren't too many speakers of other languages they may know,
 and preferably in a situation where you *have* to cope, like not
 having too much money.  And it *is* fun.
 
 Americans have some really silly ideas about language and languages,
 and one of them is that they can't learn languages, and shouldn't
 try.  Baloney.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:44
25:78)  Jennifer:
 Hey Jin Ho, I've been to Iceland too.  Unfortunately I only spent 8 hours 
 there and all of them were in the Reykjavic airport -- try that for fun.  I
 really want to go to Japan for the language aspect, but since I'm an art
 histroy major, I also want to go to Italy or France.  I like the art there
 better. 
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:51
25:79)  Kevin:
 It's true that learning languages is like learning to ride a bike, but
 when you fall off your language, you generally don't end up in the
 hospital.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:43
25:80)  Karen :
 While we are on the topic of languages:
 Has anyone been to Buenos Aires? I am considering studying there
 this summer before I trek off to grad school.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:20
25:81)  Lee:
 I would love to go abroad and study if I could.  But at this point I don't
 really have a chance to do so.  With about a year left until I graduate 
 and *dwindling* funds, barely keeping up with tuition, rent, food..., I don't
 really have an opportunity.  Again, in my field of study, If I have any hopes
 of getting a decent job when I do graduate, I have to intern this summer and
 go for full time work immediately upon graduation.  But enough with my 
 complaining.  My advice to anyone who can still get away for a term:  DO IT,
 everybody I know who has studied abroad said it was great, and *trust me*
 4 years of U of M is more than enough, so 3 1/2 is bound to be plenty.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:45
25:82)  Laurie:
 John, do you think learning a Dead language ( you know which one I mean)
 is the same as a spoken one?  Where will I travel to Converse in Sanskrit?
 Even though I currently am not working on it I intend to get back to it. 
 It was more like a quiet meditative brain stretch than conversing. When
 last term I asked you about trying to recoup my RC German you thought it 
 probably wasn't just dusty in there but maybe lost. Seeing how I really
 want to learn Sanskrit and not really relearn German it was good advice
 you gave me shooting down my theory that knowing one language might make
 learning Sanskrit easier. Might at well struggle for what I really want.
 and yet I do think that for me learning to analyse language as we are in 
 this course will make my renewed attempt at creating study habits for 
 Sanskrit easier. Whadaya think?
- - - - -
Feb02/94 12:11
25:83)  John Lawler:
 Well, I'm hoping it will.  Especially since Sanskrit is probably the
 most overanalyzed language in world history, and understanding some
 of the analysis is almost a necessity to learning it.
 
 Dead languages can't be learned the same way as live ones.  That's
 where writing comes into its own.  And there really isn't any natural
 way to learn written language; it's technology and has to be studied.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 14:35
25:84)  Joe:
 Prof. Lawler, which of Greek (ancient), Latin, and German would be the best
 to start with if one wanted to know all three?  Which, also, is the easiest?
- - - - -
Feb02/94 14:37
25:85)  Jill:
 I think German would be the easiest and it is similar to Russian which is
 usefull.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:32
25:86)  Jin Ho:
 Jennifer: (apology to everyone, I don't remember how to make this a personal
 post.) Where were you headed when you stopped in Rekjavik? I lived there when
 s abroad!  Right near the airport, too, and Keflavik. Did you get a chance to
 see any of the country at all? If not, that 's too bad.  It's a beautiful
 place.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:58
25:87)  Nicholas:
 Jennifer a personal message is done by using the t command at the do_next
 prompt... fyi...
- - - - -
Feb02/94 22:08
25:88)  Lee:
 Speaking of dead languages, I knew a guy in high school that was 
 trying to learn a language--I don't think you can call it dead, since
 it never really flew in the first place--he was learning Esperanto.
 I never really understood why he wanted to know it, for even when/if
 he finally does learn it, all he'll be able to do is talk to himself
 since *nobody* else speaks it.  (of course, he was kind of a strange guy,
 always hopping around on one foot  :P )
- - - - -
Feb03/94 00:59
25:89)  Stephanie:
 Esperanto was never REALLY alive, was it? I am not sure
- - - - -
Feb03/94 02:59
25:90)  Zachary:
 I am taking Latin and would recommend it to anyone wanting to learn
 a "dead" language.  Latin is only dead in its classical form, 
 remnants of the language pervade many of the modern languages we 
 speak today.  In fact, it is probably one of the most useful tools
 in understanding language in general.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 08:49
25:91)  John Lawler:
 Sorry I didn't answer your question before, Joe (re:84).  Of German, ancient
 Greek, and Latin, which is the best to start with and which is easiest?
 
 The "easy" part is tricky, because that depends on your own interests,
 habits, goals, and prior knowledge.  Still, of those three, I'd recommend
 Latin on both counts.  Here's why:
 
 1) Ancient Greek is clearly the hardest, and you'll need to understand
    something about ancient culture to cope with it.  Latin will give you
    some of that.
 2) German and Latin are about equal in terms of difficulty as languages,
    but you don't have to fool around with *speaking* Latin; it can be
    studied anywhere and with any teacher, and they don't have to be
    "native speakers".
 3) English is more closely related to German than to Latin (English is a
    Germanic language), but it's borrowed so many words from Latin and
    French that half the vocabulary is Romance.  So the study of Latin
    does *wonders* for your English, and that will help plenty in the
    study of anything.
 
 If it were up to me, I'd make Latin compulsory in High School again for
 college prep courses.  If you'd all had two years of Latin in HS, this
 would be a very different class.  You'd all know what case and inflection
 and paradigms were all about, just like you know the multiplication
 tables.  And you'd have better vocabularies and be better writers.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 16:51
25:92)  Mitchell:
 Hear, hear!  I agree with your views on compulsory Latin study,
 Prof. Lawler.  I sure wish I had it.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 21:17
25:93)  John Lawler:
 (belatedly) ... not to say you're not all great writers; we haven't
 done any writing to speak of.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 22:20
25:94)  Dawn:
 How do people who still speak Latin such as the pope know how?
 I would think that in passing it down through their seminary training 
 or whatever else clergymen do to get their education that the language 
 would have had to stay the same in general.  I understand that languages 
 change over time but it just seems that within such a relatively small 
 group there wouldn't be much room for outside influence.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 22:29
25:95)  Jake:
 From my understanding,
 Church latin is the latin of the Bible (much like Standard Arabic
 is the language of the Koran -- which no-one but scholars speaks.
 The pronounciation is changed over "standard" latin.
 
 For example, in standard Latin, a 'v' is pronounced like a /w/, but in
 church latin, it gets pronounced like /v/.
 
 I believe that the pope, and other religious men, learn latin in whatever
 school they go to be indoctrinated into the church.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 22:50
25:96)  Joe:
 Thanks, Prof. Lawler.  I've given it some thought, however, and think I will
 probably begin with Greek, to get the hard stuff out of the way.  All of this
 will not begin for a year or so.  And I do know a little about ancient Greek
 culture, so maybe that will help.  As for learning Latin, just because a
 language is not spoken anymore does not mean that its written version can't
 be spoken at all.  If English were to pass out of usage (!), chances are
 there would be a way to get it back.  All one has to do is open one's mouth. 
 The few Latin words I know are very easy to say.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 10:56
25:97)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Actually, Dawn, within a small, isolated group, a language will still
 change. You don't need outside influence for that.  If you have two small
 isolated gropus of people speaking the same dialect, over time their
 diaclect bercome more and more different. An example of this is the different
 dialects in England today.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 19:05
25:98)  Lee:
 Here's something I've been wondering for a while: with my formal
 schooling coming to an end soon (thank god!) I still find that I 
 would like to explore some other languages.  Are any of those learn-
 a-language tapes any good?  Does anybody know if they work.  I'd 
 like to learn some more languages, but don't have the $$ to take real 
 courses, and I don't really want to wait 10 years until I'm settled 
 enough in my job to take Community College courses.  Some of those
 tapes are made by U.S. Foreign Service, and they seem the most legit.
 Does anybody know what the deal is?
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:44
25:99)  Zachary:
 On the issue of making Latin compulsory again, I agree with Prof. Lawler
 .  I know what paradigms, inflection, etc. are and this knowledge does 
 seem valuable when analyzing other languages.  As for giving one a better
 vocabulary, it does wonders.  Another factor is my personal belief that
 the Classical department at the U of M is second to none in their 
 commitment to undergraduate education.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 18:22
25:100)  Melissa:
 I agree with y'all on the Latin comments.  If I had it to do over again
 I'd have taken Latin in *addition* to Russian in highschool.  But I 
 also have found that knowing Russian has helped me a lot in understanding
 much of linguistics--the case system and all.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 19:54
25:101)  Katrina:
 An answer to Lee's question.  The best possible language at home learning
 tapes would have to be the Defense Language Institute tapes created
 by the US Army.  I have several associates who have become realitively
 fluent in 9 months because they used the tapes, books, training brochures,
 movies and other supplies correctly (let me stress - CORRECTLY)  It takes
 a lot of dedication but the overall result is definitely worth it!
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:11
25:102)  Jill:
 Melissa-i agree with the idea that russian  helped with ling. especially in
 such cases as assimilation and voiced and voiceless consonants.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 10:13
25:103)  John P:
 about the compulsory latin:
 
 i went to a catholic high school where they *really* pushed latin.  (no, i
 didn't take it  :)  )  as i recall, more people failed latin/did poorly in
 latin than french/spanish combined.  not that those departments were any
 more lenient.  i think a large part of it has to do with being able to
 relate aurally to living languages.  i know i personally learn much faster
 if i can hear something and speak it rather than just look at it.  i'm not
 sure it would be the best idea to make it mandatory--it might discourage
 aural learners from taking any language studies at all.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 14:03
25:104)  Zachary:
 The absence of speech in Latin is one less thing to worry about, adn 
 leaves more time to perfect the reading aspect of the language.  As
 for relating to a language aurally, that is very interesting and 
 something that does not have any beneficial or adverse aff
 effect for me but point well taken.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:44
25:105)  Stephanie:
 I took Latin in high school, mainly because my mom made me. But
 I am so glad she did. However, I think that Latin appeals more,
 and is easier for people who like logic and patterns, rather than
 artsy language. That is, Latin is a language which is not hard
 to "conquer" once you know the patterns and are able to understand
 the logic behind it. But as for it being fun, or being able
 to give yourself a "Latin personality", ...you just cant
 do it without actually speaking the language.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:12
25:106)  Jake:
 Just a note about the compolsurary latin thing...
 If it were compulsary, it would take away from free-will and thus
 be inexpedentiary (I think I just invented a word) to learning.
 Comparing the kids in my latin class who were taking it to get 
 language credit to graduate, and those like me who took it cause we
 enjoued it, the difference is dramatic.
  
 On the philosophical side, free-will = creativity:
 the more you take away, the less creative people are.
 (Which is why are public school system is so good at turning out
 failures.)
  
 Just my $.02
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:18
25:107)  John Lawler:
 Yeah, that's right.  Though there *is* accessible (even enjoyable)
 Latin literature.  When I was in college I learned about the Goliardi,
 the wandering students of the 12th Century, who wrote some of the
 funniest, dirtiest, cleverest, and most beautiful poetry in Western
 history.  In Latin.  If you've ever heard (and looked at the lyrics
 of) Carmina Burana, you've seen it.  A good place to see some samples
 is the chapter on Latin poetry in Charles Homer Haskins' _The Renaissance
 of the Twelfth Century_ (which is very good reading in general -- it
 pinpoints where universities started and explains why they are the
 way they are).
 
 Anyway, there seem to be several different kinds of second-language learners
 (big surprise, right?).  Some learn to understand before they
 learn to speak (some never do learn to speak); and there's
 another variety who learn to speak very fast but take much longer
 to learn to understand the language.  My wife and I are a good pair
 that way; we make about one Spanish speaker between us.  
 
 The second kind seems to be the sort that Stephanie refers to above.
 I might add that after the experience of solving these problems, you
 have a fairly good idea of what kind of intellectual activity is involved
 in learning a language that exists only on paper.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:24
25:108)  John Lawler:
 Well, Jake and I were composing our responses at the same time, and
 my original "Yeah, that's right" was to the item before it.  But you're
 right, of course, Jake.  The problem is getting people to do *anything*
 because they're interested.  I hate teaching required courses, and so
 do most teachers.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:17
25:109)  Kiran:
 Latin was required in my middle school for one year only, but most people
 continued for at least a couple more years.  Although at the time I
 took the class, I found it very boring, I now feel that it has helped
 me in my English classes, this class, and even French classes because 
 there were so many borrowed words.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 00:10
25:110)  Kevin:
 No languages (except lots of English) were required in my high school, though
 they did require a class called Cruise (forestry, accounting/shorthand, home
 ec, and computer science all in one class, though thankfully not at the same
 time).
- - - - -
Feb10/94 11:34
25:111)  Jennifer:
 Language was kind of required at my high school.  We had to take either 2 
 years of language, art, music, or drama -- something creative.  A lot of
 people took a language, though.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:18
25:112)  Sean:
 Prof. Lawler, you mentioned the Carmina Burana text and the Goliardi poetry
 in one of the above responses (I also brought it up in a response for item
 22).  In looking over it again, I noticed that about 90% of the grammar was
 identical to Classical Latin, but that a good portion of the vocabulary used
 in it was some sort of Bavarian-Latin mix (as I also mentioned in that one
 earlier response).  I was wondering - is there any language spoken today that
 is a 50-50, or close to 50-50, mix of two other languages, without adding
 many new rules to this conglomeration?  I know that English is basically
 many languages blended together with "new" rules applied to the grammar of
 the words that are used, but I can't really think of a language that is
 basically formed from only two languages (dead or otherwise)...
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:25
25:113)  Mitchell:
 If I may give a response to your question, Sean, I think Esperanto is an
 example of a 50/50 language (to borrow your phrasing)--I know that it's
 essentially derived from German and Latin, but I'm not sure if those
 are the only languages used to form Esperanto, or 
 what their respective contributing percentages are if they are the
 only two.  Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 22:45
25:114)  John Lawler:
 It was formed from French, Spanish, English, German, Russian, Italian, and
 Latin.  Which makes it basically another Romance language, with a rather
 simple morphology (and, I might add, a morphology unlike that of any
 natural language).  Not many people speak Esperanto.  I thought you
 meant a natural language.
 
 You can't really be precise about percentages, of course.  What are you
 going to count?  Phonemes?  Allophones?  Verb tenses?  Noun classes?
 But one can recognize trends.  English isn't really a blend, though.
 It's borrowed tons of vocabulary from Romance sources, but it's still
 recognizably a Germanic language.
 
 However, new languages (called creoles and pidgins) *are* blends.
 They happen when people without a common language have to develop one.
 This is a 'pidgin', and it's not really a language - usually only a
 couple thousand words and sketchy grammar.   But when their children
 get hold of it, if they do, they breathe life into it, the vocabulary
 expands, the syntax gets interesting, the phonology gets complex
 and expressive, and a creole is born.  The words that go into it
 are usually a blend of whatever languages were in contact, with
 sometimes one language contributing the grammar and the other the
 words.   This can be rather strange at times.  There's an Indian
 language, really a dialect of Cree, where the grammar is Cree, and
 all the verbs are Cree, but the nouns are all borrowed from French.
 It's called Michif.
- - - - -
Feb11/94 17:54
25:115)  Laurie:
 I think there is or was an Native American language spoken in the Northwest
 that was also one of these blends used promarily for trade.
- - - - -
Feb11/94 17:57
25:116)  John Lawler:
 That's Chinook Jargon, which was a trade language with mostly words from
 Chinook, but lots from French, too.  What's interesting about it is that
 although Chinook and all the other languages in the area are polysynthetic
 (i.e, *highly* inflected), Chinook jargon is completely analytic, like
 all other pidgin languages.
- - - - -
Feb13/94 20:30
25:117)  Lee:
 JL,
   How many languages are you relatively fluent in, and which ones.  I
   can't be the *only* one who has been wondering.
- - - - -
Feb13/94 22:09
25:118)  John Lawler:
 Oh, geez.  I thought I answered that somewhere before.  Or was that a trans? 
 If anybody's got my answer to that, would you post it, please? That's a
 question every linguist hates to answer, because there are so many
 presuppositions inherent in it, and there really isn't any good answer.  I
 can cope with Spanish and German, or could if I could spend a couple weeks
 living in a country that spoke them to revive my passive knowledge.  And I
 can read most Romance languages and guess at most Germanic ones
 constructively.  I have a smattering of Homeric Greek and a smaller helping
 of Sanskrit, from graduate school.  I have Latin reasonably well, though I
 have to use a dictionary to read it any more.  I used to be able to speak
 Malay, though I haven't had the opportunity to speak it in almost ten years. 
 I've done research on a number of languages, and one learns a lot of stuff
 when one does that; but I wouldn't say I speak Skagit, Acehnese, Minangkabau,
 or Javanese.  Yiddish (also left over from Grad school) I can speak somewhat
 better than the others because it's so similar to German.
 
 There.  Does that answer the question?  One reason why linguists don't like
 to answer it is that it gives the impression we spend all our time learning
 to speak lots of languages, which isn't true. Some of us are real polyglots,
 but they're generally the ones that have some natural kind of head start,
- - - - -
Feb13/94 22:09
25:119)  John Lawler:
 like being bilingual.  But I'm sure not.  The other reason is that Americans
 make *way* too much out of "speaking languages", like it was some kind of
 Olympic thing. In almost every case in every culture in every age of history,
 the overwhelming majority of people everywhere has routinely spoken several
 languages. It's no big deal; it's just that America has this pathological
 fear about language learning, mostly because most people are ignorant about
 language here.  Luckily, this is not the case in most other countries.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 16:10
25:120)  Larry:
 WOW!... that is a lot of languages still.  How many of those
 have you picked up on your own?  Just curious!  
- - - - -
Feb14/94 16:12
25:121)  Stephanie:
 probably all of them (just kidding)
- - - - -
Feb14/94 17:31
25:122)  Zachary:
 That is a rather astounding smattering of a variety of languages, must 
 be nice.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 18:09
25:123)  Dawn:
 Maybe this goes with the American fear of languages, but I have to take 
 French next year and I'm so scared!!!
- - - - -
Feb14/94 18:25
25:124)  Stephanie:
 we know you can do it, Dmost
- - - - -
Feb14/94 18:29
25:125)  John Lawler:
 I did study German by myself when I was in Jr. High.  It wasn't offered in my
 high school.  I took Latin instead (and never regretted it an instant). The
 rest were targets of opportunity; Malay I learned because all the grammars of
 Acehnese and Minangkabau were written in it, for instance. And Yiddish was
 offered as a field methods class when I was in grad school; I really took to
 it because there are so many great jokes in Yiddish.
 
 The only languages I ever learned in regular courses were Latin, Sanskrit,
 Homeric Greek (both in Linguistics grad school, a quarter each), and German
 (a B.A. major... but I already knew a lot on my own).
- - - - -
Feb14/94 19:38
25:126)  Melissa:
 There was a man in my Russian Intensive last year who professed to know
 16 languages "fluently".  But I heard his Russian and his Polish, and
 he apparently learned most of those 16 languages without aid of grammar,
 completely colloquially(sp.?).  Man, Prof. Lawler--I sure envy you.  My
 goal is to be fluent in at least six languages before I die.  Two
 down,  four to go....
- - - - -
Feb15/94 23:12
25:127)  Zachary:
 Have fun Melissa.  English is fine for me.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 15:50
25:128)  Lucas:
 My cousin works for the UN around the world.  He knows a tone of 
 languages including a dozen or so Indian dialects.  I know only
 Spanish and Italian and they confuse me enough as it is.  How do
 you keep them straight in your head?
- - - - -
Feb17/94 17:14
25:129)  John Lawler:
 Did I say I kept them straight in my head? I must have misspoken.  I make all
 kinds of mistakes, all the time.  You have to keep them all up or they rust.
 That's why I said I *used* to be able to speak Malay.
- - - - -
Feb27/94 20:20
25:130)  Lida:
 I took Spanish and French in high school and at first they were hard to 
 keep straight.  John, do you have any suggestions that would help 
 in preventing so much cofusion when studying closely related languages?
- - - - -
Feb27/94 22:41
25:131)  John Lawler:
 Learn something about their history and what to expect in each one.
 In a sense, they *are* close to the same language, and Spanish and
 French speakers know this and find it easy to learn each others'
 languages.  Don't try too hard to "keep them straight".  If you're
 speaking one and a word or construction in the other comes to mind
 easier, go ahead and use it; it might very well be right.  And if
 it's not, something like it is probably either archaic or dialectal,
 and people can likely understand it.  Nine times out of ten you come
 off with a charmingly non-American accent, or possibly as being very
 learned.
 
 I might add, most educated people in Western cultures (except Americans)
 know quite a lot of linguistics.  A very stiff dose of Latin and
 Greek etymology is required for the college preparatory course in
 Mexico, for instance, and this isn't unusual.  So learn a little
 Latin and don't worry.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 23:07
25:132)  Lida:
 thanks, will do.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 11:28
25:133)  Karen :
 Lida,
 I have the same problem with the French and the Spanish.
 I took French for 5-6 years, visited a few times, and then 
 stopped taking it. I then became interested in Spanish, and have been 
 taking that for the last year. I have a difficult time switching from
 one to the other----my housemate and I speak French (which we find a 
 convenience around other people ;) ) In fact, we spoke French the 
 majority of the time we were in Jamaica over spring break. 
 Coming back to Spanish class was a bit disconserting, to say the least.
 Though, I have a friend who speaks Spanish, French and English fluently,
 and he has no prblem--though they are all native tongues.
 So, I sympathize. . . ;)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 26    Jan18/94 19:10     9 lines    33 responses
Nicholas                    
New sounds

 Sounds...
 The unpronouncable ones you run across... :) I thought it might be
 interesting to have an item where we can share the new sounds we discover.
 Here is the format I'm thinking of:
 1. a description of the sound (like how you pronouce it...)
 2. its origins and other related information (ie, the language...)
 3. how you came across it
 
 

   33 responses
- - - - -
Jan18/94 19:12
26:1)  Nicholas:
 Thought I'd put in the first response...
 What inspired me to start the item is that new i- sound that our most
 worthy professor tought us today. I still can't pronounce... :)
- - - - -
Jan18/94 21:22
26:2)  Jake:
 It's like "eeewwww, that's gross", NA. But when you have a cold.
- - - - -
Jan18/94 22:00
26:3)  John Lawler:
 It's a high back *un*rounded vowel.  So it's like [u] as in "toot", but
 keep your lips from rounding.  You can do that easily if you watch yourself
 in the mirror.  Keep those lips flat.  Nothing to it.  Now, clicks are
 *hard*.  Or ask Leonora about Georgian consonants.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 10:43
26:4)  Leonora Sanchez:
 No, Georgian consonants are not that hard to pronounce--in isolation.  It's
 the consonant clusters that are impossible.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:17
26:5)  Tom:
 I think that Jake is correct in the way he pronounce it.  That is how I
 pronounce it.  If anyone disagrees please respond with how you feel
 it should be pronounced.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 13:42
26:6)  Larry:
 Prof Lawler, are you talking about the clicks in African languages.
 'xhosa'... pronounced <click>osa.  I always liked that one.  Plus it 
 sounds cool!
- - - - -
Jan19/94 14:24
26:7)  Nicholas:
 Thanks professor, and JB! I guess that helps. 
 Does anyone know africaaner (at least I think that's one of the main
 languages  of SouthAfrica)? It's got a bunch of funny clicking and other
 odd sounds in it... :)
- - - - -
Jan19/94 15:19
26:8)  Jake:
 Afrikaans is a colonization language -> some African language under
 the influence of Dutch.
 But I believe that's out of the "click belt"
- - - - -
Jan19/94 16:25
26:9)  Rob:
 I also believe that clicks are a main part of the language used by the Pygmy
 tribe.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 17:40
26:10)  John Lawler:
 Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch spoken in South Africa, almost exclusively
 by whites.  It has no clicks.
 
 There are a lot of Bantu languages spoken by people who are loosely
 called "pygmies".  These languages have no clicks, by and large.
 
 The languages spoken by the "hottentot" and "bushman" peoples (not their
 names for themselves - respectively, "Khoi" and "San", hence the family is
 known as "Khoisan") *do* have clicks, and plenty of them.  More, in
 some Khoisan languages, than regular consonants.  These have in turn been
 borrowed by some of the neighboring Bantu languages, notably Zulu,
 Xhosa, and Suthu.  But these still have very few clicks (at most 3 or
 4 instead of 30 or 40) compared to the Khoisan languages.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:01
26:11)  Jill:
 in the turkish homework I had a problem with the different types of your, has
 anyone figured it out
- - - - -
Jan19/94 18:33
26:12)  John Lawler:
 Well, there are several ways you could do it.
 
 First, think of what "your" means in English.  We don't distinguish
 between singular and plural second person.  So "your" could mean
 either one.
 
 Second, notice what kinds of things these are modifying.  Someone
 can have several teeth, but can't have several faces, for instance.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 19:19
26:13)  Jennifer:
 This was the same problem that i was having.  i was thinking that the
 different allomorphs modified the "your" to be singular or plural, but there
 is no way of telling in the translation of the phrases.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 19:30
26:14)  Dawn:
 back on the unpronounceable sounds, what are these clicks? I've 
 never heard of them.
- - - - -
Jan19/94 20:19
26:15)  Jake:
 Ever see the TV show (not too old) cald "Alien Nation" the langauge spoken
 by the aliens in there have one click:
 You really have to hear one pronounced to imitate it.
 The movie "The Gods must be Crazy" has some clicks in it.
 Basically, move the tip of your tongue to your pallette, move it quickly
 and breath in (?). Anyway, that's the only click I can do very well.
 (Oh, there's also one where the back of your tongue touches near the
 back of your mouth).
- - - - -
Jan20/94 01:09
26:16)  Mitchell:
 Tencton!!!  My sister and I loved Alien Nation. I recognize some of
 the clicks, but are you familiar with the recent TV series version of
 War Of The Worlds.  I can teach you how to say "To Life Immortal" in
 a bizarre alien language.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 10:58
26:17)  Kevin:
 I've never heard clicks, so I can't do them.  I think I've got glottal
 stops, though.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 11:39
26:18)  John Lawler:
 Be careful, then.  They're contagious.
- - - - -
Jan20/94 19:49
26:19)  Stephanie:
 Tee Hee
- - - - -
Jan21/94 11:39
26:20)  Larry:
 Hee Haw
- - - - -
Jan21/94 13:58
26:21)  John P:
 trying to sing in other languages can be strange too...
 we did a bunch of songs in check, and some of the consonant clusters that
 we were expected to sing in one syllable were just fun.  like vxr
 sort of 'v (german ich) singer's r (rolled italian-style)'.  
 
 and then learning some ghanian drumming songs... hausa wasn't bad, but
 twe got pretty weird, and gahu vowels were so odd...  (this is how someone
 from ghana transliterated the names, so i don't know if it's close to how
 a linguist would spell them.  anybody else run into problems trying to
 sing some of these way out languages?
 
- - - - -
Jan21/94 21:12
26:22)  Stephanie:
 I have a tape of Italian songs by a current artist, and they sound
 pretty strange to someone who doesn tknow they arent in English.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 12:45
26:23)  Rob:
 Does anyone know how to pronounce the n with a tail in the Swahili homework??
- - - - -
Jan22/94 13:20
26:24)  John Lawler:
 Just like the "ng" in "singer".  But *not* like the "ng" in "finger".
 That's got a /g/ after the "n with a tail".  The name, by the way,
 is "eng", and it's just another nasal resonant, like "em" and "en".
 Except it's velar, where "em" is labial, and "en" is dental.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:17
26:25)  John P:
 sorry... that's 'czech,' not check.  that's what spellcheck will do.  :)
 
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:05
26:26)  Margaret:
 jp2, we forgive you, we are a loving and understanding group...:)!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 22:33
26:27)  Melissa:
 *You*, forgiving, Margaret!?  You're still mad at me for buying the 
 same shirt you had in freshman year of highschool!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:08
26:28)  Margaret:
 Melissa, you are just petty, I don't want to hear about it...you're just
 bitter about the fact that you have to use computers...actually, why
 generalize?????  you're just bitter! :)!!!!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 02:09
26:29)  Jin Ho:
 Who'd ever suspect you could find an argument over pettiness in the middle of
 a LINGUISTICS conference! (get the hint?) (I don't mean to be rude, but can
 't you guys talk about that somewhere else?)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:18
26:30)  Melissa:
 Yeah, sorry everyone.  We oughta start using the message option, Margaret.
 But I think the same thing about the pop/soda argument.  Although I guess
 eeveryone was able (and*did*
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:26
26:31)  Larry:
 Sorry to prolong this, but geez, Melissa, how could you buy the same 
 shirt as Margaret?  And your friendship somehow survived?? AMAZING!!! ;-)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:10
26:32)  Lee:
 Hey guys: <insert Bilabial Trill>
- - - - -
Jan29/94 02:20
26:33)  Margaret:
 amusing :)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 27    Jan22/94 11:04     2 lines    54 responses
John Lawler                        
Swahili Noun Class/Gender Problem

   This is the item to discuss the *new* Swahili problem, about
 noun classes and genders.  Go for it.

   54 responses
- - - - -
Jan22/94 12:50
27:1)  Rob:
 I think that there is a typo with the word for journey (miendo) or journeys
 (miendas).  None of the other words change end letters when going from the
 singular to the plural.  I personally think that journey should be mienda and
 the word for journeys is correct.  I'm making this assumption from how verbs
 and nouns are somewhat related.  Am I correct??? 
- - - - -
Jan22/94 13:21
27:2)  John Lawler:
 If that's what's on the sheet (I thought I fixed it), then it is a typo.
 Nothing happens at the end of words here; the action is strictly prefixal.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:16
27:3)  Jake:
 Except that's not on the sheet.
 "journey" is mwenda and "journeys" is "miendo"
 You wrote: mienda and miendos.
 You switched i and w around in mwendo and added an 's' to the end of
 mienda.
  
 But you're right: the paper shows o->a at the end.
 Thanks, I hadn't even noticed.
 I'm, willing to bet the correct plurl should be mienda
- - - - -
Jan22/94 14:48
27:4)  Rob:
 Thanks Jake I didn't see that what I typed wasn't whawas on the sheet.  I
 meant to say that journey should still be mwenda and journeys should be
 mienda.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 19:00
27:5)  Mitchell:
 Here's something I found: I think (though I may be wrong) there's a
 class of nouns with very few words which semantically describes hard
 things: namely, stone and tooth.  Check that, rather than hard, I'd
 say that they're immutable. (Though we know they're not immutable.)
 Any comments or thoughts?
- - - - -
Jan22/94 20:16
27:6)  Calvin:
 What's the difference between case and gender?  Also, should I regard the
 derivational prefixes ku- and u- as gender classes?  I think ku- changes a
 noun to a verb and u-  changes an adjective to a noun.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 20:47
27:7)  Calvin:
 M.S., what do you mean as in "immutable"?  You brought up[ an interesting
 notion about tooth and stone being hard. That didn't occur to me at all.
 After looking at all the other words, the word knife seems to fit into this
 category.  However, knife is visu instead of jisu.  I could be wrong, since
 the Swahili may have used soft wooden knives (?). I was thinking that
 "rock-like" instead of hard may br description (the teeth do look like rocks
 to a certain extent). Then again, I could be wrong.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 21:38
27:8)  Mitchell:
 By immutable, I refer to something that doesn't change (or in this
 case doesn't seem to change) over time.  Knife could fit into this
 category but I'm trying to figure out the semantics of the respective
 noun classes, which (I think) are six in numbe, if you go by the
 prefixes.  Further, I think that 39 is mienda because most other 
 abstract nouns (HINT!) end in 'a'.  Also, I trust we're supposed to
 give an English equivalent to what we might say, regarding question D,
 since we don't know enough Swahili.
- - - - -
Jan22/94 22:28
27:9)  Jake:
 MS, I'd call the categorie with "rock and tooth":
 small, round things. Knife does not belong to that categorie at all:
 it isn't round.
  
 Case is what a noun does: an object, a subject, object of a prep, etc.
 Gender is a class a noun falls under.
 For example, we have 4 cases in German and 3 genders (not including
 plurl).
- - - - -
Jan23/94 11:57
27:10)  John Lawler:
 That's right about case and gender, Jake.  Case has to do with the usage a
 noun has in a particular construction, whereas gender is a classification of
 the noun that transcends its usage.
 
 Here's a recent message (followed by my reply):
  From: Onuka   20:37 Jan 22
 
  Professor Lawler,
 
  I think I know what I am doing so far on the new Swahili problem.  At least
  I can answer all of the questions.  But I'm not sure what you mean when you
  say to list noun, adj, and verb agreement markers.  Also, what do you mean
  by semantic characteristics?  Do you mean that I should say that the forms
  that have a m- in the singular and wa- in plural all describe people, or do
  you want something else?  Aside from those, I feel fairly clear on this
  problem.
 
  Thanks.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 11:59
27:11)  John Lawler:
 Good question, Onuka.  In fact, it's so good that others should be seeing it,
 so I'm going to put this on the Swahili item.
 
 First, the Noun, Adj, and Verb agreement markers.  "Agreement" means marking
 different words in a phrase or clause in a coordinated way to show which
 words are related, right?  Well, the ways things get marked on nouns and
 adjectives and verbs may not be the same forms;
 
 Take English.  We mark the plural on nouns with an {-s} (never mind the
 allomorphs for now), and we don't mark the singular on nouns at all. However,
 though we do have agreement between the subject of a sentence and its verb,
 *there* we don't mark the plural at all, but we *do* mark the singular -- and
 with a {-s}!:
   The boy-0 jump-s the fence. ("boy" and "jumps" agree as singular number)
   The boy-s jump-0 the fence. ("boys" and "jump" agree as plural number)
 Now, if you were asked to analyze English number marking, you'd have to say
 that the verb and the noun markings of singular and plural were different. 
 
 Second, "semantics" means the study of meaning.  So "semantic
 characteristics" means characteristics that have to do with meaning.  And
 therefore, yes, I *do* want you to note that all the nouns with m-/mw- in the
 singular and wa- in the plural seem to refer to human beings of one sort or
 another. It's a generalization that seems true and perhaps explanatory, and
 therefore a scientific analysis cannot avoid mentioning it.
 
 Next time, go right ahead and use the Confer items.
 
 -j
- - - - -
Jan23/94 17:48
27:12)  Jennifer:
 Mitchel, I also thought that the stone and tooth catagorie had to do
 with hard things, but  here was my thought:  rocks are often used as
 tools in primitive societies and so are pieces of bone.  I thought that 
 this could be a tool catagorie, but now that i see that knife isn't in 
 it, I don't know.  what do you think?  I didn't understand what Calvin
 was trying to say before, and he totally confused me - someone help!
 Also, what catagorie does mizee (old things) go in?  I thought that it
 maybe went with journey, forest, and year.  What do you think that title
 of this one would be?  long term things?  I think I'm thoroughly
 confused, so anyone who can help, please do...  Oh!  the verb agreement
 on the back has me stumped too.  Any suggestions?  Thanks!
- - - - -
Jan23/94 18:12
27:13)  Stephanie:
 I think I may have found another typo on the back, but I am not
 sure. Should /jino jirefu/ be /jiino jirefu/ or not?
  
 I also found six groups of nouns,  but I am unclear as to what to
 do withg all the things that start with u-. I think they are adjectives,
 but I am not sure. HELP!!!
- - - - -
Jan23/94 19:02
27:14)  Jake:
 I think they're measurements, SAM.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 19:35
27:15)  Mitchell:
 Lots of ground to cover, I see.  Now then, I have found 6 noun classes,
 which for conveniences sake we will list with roman numerals; Thus:
 I) ki  vi   II)  m\mw  mi   III) m\mw, wa   IV)  u, mi   V)  0, ma
 VI) ji, ma  
 Mizee would go in class II.  Figuring things out semantically will
 vary in difficulty.  There's V, which clearly has to do with fruits,
 while II is tough to get a handle on.  We've got trees, body parts,
 phenomena relating to time and space (Journey, year) and a pretty
 amorphous term: Old Things.  In a case like II, I think we would just
 have to find common patterns, since there seems to be no way to lump
 EVERYTHING under one group, though I may be wrong.  Hope this helps.
 Any comments or thoughts?
- - - - -
Jan23/94 21:43
27:16)  Onuka:
 I personally made a lot of smaller groups, but I see what you mean, Mitchell.
 But I have a question.  Don't you think that you should at least divide class
 II and class III into two more groups (m, mi; mw, mi; m, wa; mw, wa)?  Anyone
 else have an opinion?
- - - - -
Jan23/94 21:45
27:17)  Calvin:
 J.W., sorry about the confusion.  If I'm correct, you are probably wondering
 about my categorizing tooth and rock as being 'rock-like" rather than hard. 
 What I meant to say was that a tooth is "rock-like" in appearance and
 texture.  It resembles rock more than, say, wood (or metal). Hope this makes
 sense.  J.B., Thanks for the clarification on gender and case. As for the
 m(w)- prefix, I was thinking along the same line as J.W.: things that can be
 measured in length. And, one last thing, I have question of the technical
 sort:  Can a construct ONE paradigm for all the gender classes or do I need
 several? (Actually, someone please define paradigm..)
- - - - -
Jan23/94 21:59
27:18)  Calvin:
 O.I., I don't think that Class II and III should be divided, because if you
 look at the roots attached to m- and mw- (for each class, that is), you may
 notice that  they have similar semantics. For example, mzee and mwana are
 about humans.The insertion of the w is due to the root beginning with a
 vowel.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 22:53
27:19)  Anand:
 I personally found the same type, or we think, as Stephanie did.  In the
 first page 'tooth' is jiino (two i's) but throughout the first and second
 page , it is mostly spelled with one i. For example, teeth is 'ma - ino',
 long tooth is 'ji-refu', and long teeth is 'ma - refu.'  John, can you please
 clarify this!!! :->
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:23
27:20)  Calvin:
 The jino on the 2nd page was a typo (it's supposed to be jiino).  I'm
 positvie because the mistake was corrected in lecture last Thursday.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:29
27:21)  Henry:
 Anand, Leonora confirmed in my section Fri. that it should be Jiino on 
 the second page.  MS, can you explain your class with a 'u'.  I don't see
 it.  CY, I agree with OI in that at least the m/mw, mi class should be
 seperated because a journey and a date palm seem to sematically 
 necessitate a new class.  But your vowel thing is right (I think).
 My question:  Do I have to speculate about all of the vowel and
 adjective agreement markers that I can't find explicitly on pg. 2?
 For four out of my six classes I cannot find both kinds of markers.
- - - - -
Jan23/94 23:44
27:22)  John Lawler:
 If you don't have the data, you don't have the data.  That leaves a blank in
 the paradigm.  Won't be the last time.
 
 As for what a paradigm is and whether each noun class has a different one,
 yes they do.  That's part of what it means to be a different word class.  A
 paradigm is simply a list (which may be multi-dimensional) of forms, each of
 which *can* occur (and one of which *must* occur) in a given environment, and
 which vary in their function.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 01:25
27:23)  Zachary:
 Thank you immensely for the help, and I shall return soon with my input.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 11:52
27:24)  Kiran:
 Can anyone tell me why everyone is refering to the noun class as changing
 from ki- to vi- and not just k- to v-.  It seems to me that the i could
 be a part of the root. Any help? Also I seem to be having trouble answering
 the questions at the end. I would appreciate any help.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 12:10
27:25)  Tom:
 I think that the class with journey should also be dealing with distance that
 can be measured.  And Jake thanks!  You also helped me when you answeresd the
 question about the rocks and tooth.  I also agree with it.  But I felt that I
 must have been off track somewhere.  I alos found the information dealing
 with subject verb agreement also very valueable.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 13:03
27:26)  Mitchell:
 Onuka, Calvin summarized what I would have replied.  See his response (#18)
 Henry, class IV (u, mi) consists of abstract nouns, length, unity,
 smallness, power, etc.  See 14, 21, 35, 32, etc.  You will notice that
 there are no plural forms among class IV nouns.  Kiran, I suppose it's
 intuitions that tells me it's vi and not v, but you bring up an excellent
 point.  We have no reason to assume this.  Can we have a ruling on this,
 please?  Also, are we supposed to list the verbs and adjectives on the
 back side of the sheet along with the noun forms (on the reverse side)
 in our assignment for tomorrow?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 13:42
27:27)  John Lawler:
 Any roots occurring in the data should be listed.
 
 As to why it should be ki-/vi- and not k-/v-... Well,  there are
 some indications.  First, note that the root -ti means 'tree' in
 m-/mi- class, but means 'chair/branch' in the k(i)-/v(i)- class.
 This is reasonable semantically, but what does it say about the
 shape of the root?  It *has* to begin with a consonant, no?  So
 in at least that case, the prefixes are ki- and vi-.  Given that,
 you need some *other* evidence to posit a root beginning with "i"
 that takes k-/v-.  This is not impossible, or even implausible.
 But there's no evidence for it.  Incidentally, -toto works the
 same way.  The most suspicious case is 'knife'; if the root is
 -isu, then k-/v- would be quite reasonable.  But there's no other
 case to test it on.
 
 By the way, where do you get the plural for u- nouns?  Abstract
 nouns are generally mass nouns, and they don't have plurals.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 15:17
27:28)  Jennifer:
 i still don't get the thing about verb agreement on the second page.  help!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 15:41
27:29)  Rob:
 I think that year and journey should belong to a separate class and not with
 the "tree" class.  I say this because the verb agreement in the year-journey
 class does not match the verb agreement of the tree class.  As to what to
 call this class, my vote is with measurements.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 15:51
27:30)  Tom:
 I agree with Rob on calling the class that invovlves yearand
 journey;"measurements."
- - - - -
Jan24/94 17:11
27:31)  Jennifer:
 I decided to call that class "long term / time and space"
- - - - -
Jan24/94 17:48
27:32)  Mitchell:
 My mistake on the plurals for the u- class; I accidentally included
 the Swahili "year" on the list.  Sorry if I confused anyone.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 18:31
27:33)  Henry:
 Also, MS, I think you should split up your type II as these folks 
 indicate.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 18:37
27:34)  Jennifer:
 has anyone figured out the verb agreement yet?  i'm really miffed and i'm 
 starting to get desperate.  i think i'm going crazy -- help!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 18:46
27:35)  Jennifer:
 no one's helping me yet!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 19:37
27:36)  Fred:
 To figure out verb agreement, it seems to me, all you do is this:  on the
 back k k side of the problem, you just go through the sentences and pick out
 nouns from each class.  You see whether these nouns  are singular or plural,
 then, you see e what kind of prefixes the adjectives and verbs take.  Last,
 you organize what yo you found into a paradigm for that class.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 19:46
27:37)  Jake:
 Couple of question for you to answer, John:
 1: How long is this supposed to be, again? I remember hearing one page,
 but I'm having trouble staying in bounds.
 2: I've: listed all the noun classes, their singular and plurals, and the
 most likely categorie meaning and then answered the problems.
  Do you want us to say something about subject/verb/adjective
 agreement? Somehow that struck me as superfluous, so I thought I might
 just ask.
 3: Anything else, a mighty, all-knowing Sage of the Universe? ;-)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:01
27:38)  Mitchell:
 Already done, Henry.  I also want to know if we can spill our 
 assignment on to a second page.  I simply cannot stay in 1 page.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:20
27:39)  Monica:
 Monica
 Thank you everyone for all of the help, but I am still confused on so 
 much of this assignment!  I'll keep trying and you all can keep helping!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:50
27:40)  John Lawler:
 I thought 1 page would be enough, but I admit I didn't try to write it
 all up.  If you need more space, use the back.
 
 If you list the verb and adjective agreement morphemes, you've
 said something about agreement, right?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:55
27:41)  Kiran:
 I'm still a little lost on how to answer the 4 questions on the back. Does
 anyone have any help?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:23
27:42)  Sarah:
 If anyone is interested, the last day to drop/add without panalty is 
 tommorrow. :) Reading all the responses and getting nowhere certainly makes
 me consider the option but I guess I'll stick with this class for the heck 
 of the conference. How would you possibly get enough of it, right? :)
 Back to the problem, does anybody know anything about the -aha form?
 I have a feeling that -aha has something to do with making verbal forms.
 Any suggestions?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:37
27:43)  Mitchell:
 -aha is a genuine verb form, which changes itself to adapt to whatever
 noun it's accompanied with.  Kiran, for question #1, compare the beginning
 of mbono to other noun prefixes in the assignment.  #2, look at plural
 forms of fruits.  #3, combine the appropriate root with the prefix that
 would fit any corresponding patterns (ie, if you have a gloss that's
 a plural noun, look at prefixes that go with plural nouns, etc.)  #4, 
 use your best judgment, but here's a hint: BE TACTFUL.  Hope this
 helps.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:47
27:44)  Sarah:
 Thanx, Mitchell. So would the answer for the question C be Kuwezaha or 
 something like that? I have no clue!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:49
27:45)  Mitchell:
 I think "to be empowered" would probably be closer to "kuwezo",
 by taking the root for power (#60) and the infinitive prefix (ku)  SEE
 examples 47, 49.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:58
27:46)  Sarah:
 Makes sense, thanks a lot!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 00:47
27:47)  Margaret:
 Wow, guys!!!!!  Everything makes a lot more sense now!  What would I ever
 do without all of you??????
- - - - -
Jan25/94 00:56
27:48)  Jin Ho:
 Perhaps that because the word is "journey" it can be taken as either a noun
 or a verb (to journey). I noticed another verb ending with _enda.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 01:14
27:49)  John P:
 for the two tool classes...
 
 i called rock/tooth the natural class because they function as tools
 without being altered in basic structure by humans.  the hut/knife/chair
 category involves craftsmanship by humans, so i called it the crafted class.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 03:14
27:50)  Anand:
 I think I must agree with John Politio 2.  I disagree that knife has anything
 t to do with it being tooth-like?  But, I beleive that tooth/stone are hard
 ma materials.  Thus they become one categorie. Only after they are furnished,
 and crafted into something desirable such as knives from stones, do they
 become another?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 07:05
27:51)  John Lawler:
 Don't get carried away with semantics; it's not arbitrary.  But I'm
 glad to see you thinking about it.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 10:33
27:52)  Kiran:
 Thanks for all the help, Mitchell.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 12:49
27:53)  Melissa:
 Thanks for everyone's help.  I was glad to see that I was right about
 "kuwezo".
- - - - -
Jan25/94 15:42
27:54)  Mitchell:
 You're welcome, Kiran, and to everyone else I may have helped, you're
 welcome.  (Heck, you'd have done the same thing for me.)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 28    Jan24/94 20:40     5 lines   121 responses
Lee                         
Regionalisms

 This is an item for regionalisms (for lack of a better word).  We 
 have already had the soda/pop controversy (and now its OVER).  But
 it seems there are an endless supply of other terms used in some
 areads and foreign in others.  Tennis Shoes/Sneakers is one I
 can think of as well as Clicker/Remote Control.  Others?

  121 responses
- - - - -
Jan24/94 20:42
28:1)  Jake:
 Clicker? Only my hick step-father calls the remote a "clicker"
 In some places, bion, they pronounce the word "wash" /warS/
 (Hey John, I got to use your ascii.ipa. Neat, huh?)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:03
28:2)  Mitchell:
 My mom called tennis shoes/sneakers "tennies" when I was a kid.  I've
 since called them tennis shoes, though I don't play tennis, and I
 can't ever remember using "sneakers" in any spoken context.  Honest.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:18
28:3)  Gail:
 My mom calls it a "clicker" but she's not a hick.  Maybe she knows your
 step dad Jake.  Her terminology has yet to rub off on the rest of the 
 family.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:25
28:4)  Monica:
 Monica
 I personally say some words that everyone makes fun of but it's habit so
 I stopped caring. i.e.restrent instead of restaurant, and walk-a-bout phone
 instead of cordless phone and a couple of others that I'll save for later.
 One thing that has always bothered me is the pronounciation of the word
 "mature"!
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:52
28:5)  Vassoula:
 I have one.  The pronounciatkon of the word "often" and if
 you're from the Upper Peninsula "about".
- - - - -
Jan24/94 21:53
28:6)  John Lawler:
 I come from the area that says "warsh" and "garsh" and "Warshington".
 DeKalb County, Illinois.  There's a large bundle of isoglosses that
 divide the Northern dialect group from the Midland, and they run
 just south of there.
 
 When I was in high school we used to drive out to watch them.
 :-)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:31
28:7)  Lee:
 As for "clicker" I never realized I said it until my fiancee pointed out
 ttom  (oops) to me that I asked her where the clicker was--she thought
 I asked where the clapper was and thought I was crazy.  It also appears
 in Billy Joel's song "Blond over Blue" on his new album.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:36
28:8)  Nicholas:
 I don't suppose you'de consider the united Kingdom as a region to be
 included in this item, Lee? :) Anyway I'll bring this up, the english say
 crisps instead of chips and bin instead of trash.
 InCanada (toronto) they say washroom instead of bathroom. :)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:38
28:9)  Katrina:
 I always found it fascinating when I was visiting my relatives in Texas
 that they would slur several words together forming a completely new
 word.  One such example is "y'all" and "o'eryoneder==
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:40
28:10)  Katrina:
 (yikes, I don't know what happened)  As I was saying, "o'eryonder"--my
 guess is over there.  Interesting phenomenon.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:59
28:11)  Kiran:
 Since we brought foreign countries into this, in India, they refer to glue
 as 'gum'.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:30
28:12)  Sarah:
 In England, girls don't say "That guy is cute!" , they say "he's DISHY!"
 Also, if you say you're "stuffed" after eating a lot, the English will give
 you a wierd look 'cause it's their slang word for PREGNANT! Be careful! ;)
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:32
28:13)  Henry:
 I don't get how dishy=cute.  Explain ASAP.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:39
28:14)  Sarah:
 I'll try. Uh...I guess it's just a way to say ...Well, you know how sometimes
 wierd guys say "Yumm" for a girl, I think it's basically like that.
 I'm by no means English so this is as much as I can do. :)
- - - - -
Jan25/94 01:11
28:15)  John P:
 don't leave out water fountain/bubbler.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 02:09
28:16)  Anand:
 To start another argument, I say gym shoes instead of sneakers or tennis
 shoes. I guess, I've always worn sneakers/tennis shoes in the gym, so to me
 their gym shoes!!! :->
- - - - -
Jan25/94 07:16
28:17)  John Lawler:
 There's enough regionalisms to go around.  What I don't quite understand
 is why anyone would ever consider such things offensive (e.g "start a fight",
 etc, and the pop/soda discussion we had before). Strange, yes.
 Surprising, even.  But why offensive?
 
 Are we *really* so parochial that we expect everybody to talk just
 like we do, and get mad when they don't?  That's the stereotype of
 the Ugly American, and I'd like to believe it's not a proper part
 of a liberal education.
 
 Or is it just a matter of wanting to fit in when you're far from
 home and it's cold out, and the locals talk funny and laugh at you?
 Could be.  That's certainly understandable.  Of course, it puts a
 certain responsiblity on the locals to be sophisticated and not
 hicks themselves, eh?
 
 ...just a few thoughts.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 08:50
28:18)  Stephanie:
 In England they say "rubber" for "eraser
 " My friend had some problems when she moved to the US
- - - - -
Jan25/94 09:28
28:19)  Dale:
 I always thought of a clicker as the annoying person who flips through the
 channels constantly.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 09:53
28:20)  John Lawler:
 A great example of the inherent ambiguity of the agentive morpheme.
 A potholder is a thing, whereas a cupbearer is a person.
 A typewriter is a thing, whereas a copywriter is a person.
 And so it goes...
- - - - -
Jan25/94 10:25
28:21)  Tom:
 I say clicker for channel changer.  Do you know how much fun you can
 "Clicking people?  Clicking is where you go to neighbors who have the same
 clicker as you and you change the channel,mess around with the volume and
 turn the T.V off.  Then when the go to sit back down after fixing it it
 starts all over again.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:38
28:22)  Nicholas:
 Speaking of clicking, in my circle of friends we talking about clicking
 when someone opens their eyes wide and blinks slowly... Interesting how
 the same word can have such a variety of homonyms (or at least I think
 that's the word I want to employ here....) :)
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:11
28:23)  Margaret:
 John, my mother said warsh, etc..., thereby passing it onto me, and I
 was teased mecilessly for my speech problem.  People just can't accept
 things or people that fall out of their category of normal!  It starts
 as children and grows and grows throughout like....
 Tom, I've played the clicking game, but it can be a little mean when
 you do it to a babysitter...they sort of freak out after a certain 
 point.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:04
28:24)  Amy:
 Ok...my 2 cents: My dad is from the south and he calls the remote a clicker
 , tennis shoes Tenny pumps...
 And for the often thing: I just have one question...Do you ofTen lisTen while
 moisTening your lips? So, there ya go.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:53
28:25)  Dawn:
 My grandpa lives in West-central Ohio ( near Minster which I saw someone 
 mention earlier) and he eh has always refered to the thrwee meals of the 
 day as breakfast, dinner and supper.
 He says " I took you to the store - not?" for " I took you to the store - 
 didn't I?"
 He also calls salami sommersausage, but that could actually be a differtent 
 kind of meat
- - - - -
Jan25/94 22:02
28:26)  John Lawler:
 That's probably more German than Midlands influence.  To many people,
 especially people who learned their English a long time ago, "dinner"
 is the main meal, usually eaten at midday, while "supper" is teh
 evening meal, often not very large.
 
 The "...not?" (not to be confused with Wayne's World) is just an English
 translation of German "..., nicht wahr?" (or for that matter,
 French "..., n'est-ce pas?", or even Canadian "..., eh?").  And
 "summer sausage" is a kind of sausage not all that different from
 salami.  Words for foods, especially varieties of foods, change
 radically from one area to another even in monolingual areas.  You
 can't depend on a dictionary to tell you about food words, as those
 of you who have travelled will know.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:32
28:27)  Larry:
 As for regional stuff:
   Hero vs Submarine vs Hoagie
 The one that drives me crazy out here (I'm from Maryland) is the 
 way Michiganders pronounce the word "tour".  Everyone here says 
 'too-er', which I'm still trying to figure out.  Nobody would
 pronounce "four" or "pour" like that.  You wouldn't poo-er milk!
 As for stuff that was unfortunately passed down to me:
   Clicker (Yes, me too sometimes)
   Three-A's (instead of Triple-A)
   Ice Box (instead of refrigerator)
 Here's a question:  
   Does anyone's grandparents refer to your friends as "boyfriends"
 or "girlfriends", even if you are the same gender???
- - - - -
Jan26/94 10:20
28:28)  Amy:
 Hey, I just had a thought...imagine that! Anyway, how many of you have heard 
 melk in place of milk...or pellow instead of pillow?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 11:55
28:29)  John Lawler:
 That's the Northern Cities Chain Shift in action.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 12:29
28:30)  Tom:
 Instead of saaying orange my dad says "oinge" as in oinge sherbet.  Does
 anyone know if there is any particular group of people who say this.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 13:26
28:31)  Rob:
 The only instance of the word clicker being used is when my brother talks
 about it.  This is strange since no one else in my family calls it a clicker.
 As for the boyfriend-girlfriend that Larry mentioned, my grandma does it to.
 I'm glad that other people have noticed this.  Now I can rest assured that
 I'm not going crazy. :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 14:27
28:32)  Tom:
 yep,my grandparents do the same thing Rob and Larry.  It is quite 
 annoying though.  You can't always tell if thier taking about who
 your dating or just a friend from school.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:03
28:33)  Jennifer:
 My grandparents do the same thing, and my parents do it too sometimes.  I've
 gotten used to it, so I know what they're talking about.  Usually if they're
 talking about a guy who's just a friend, he's referred to as my friend and
 not my boyfriend.  But, my girl friends are referred to as my girlfriends.
 Here's another one -- What do you call the turn-signal on your car?  I call
 it the ticker or the blinker.  
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:29
28:34)  Jill:
 icall the turn signal the blinker-jill
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:35
28:35)  Larry:
 Never heard of "ticker", Jennifer.  I use blinker.  How about
 "directional"?  Here's another grandparent thing:
 If something is very funny, then they say "right funny".  They use
 this all the time to mean "very".
 See if someone can settle a debate that I have with my dad. If he answers
 the phone and its for me... I pick it up and then yell "I got it".  He
 always yells back "No, it's 'I have it'".  This has seriously been going
 on for years.  I claim they are both right with slightly different 
 meaning:
    I got it-- "I picked up the phone"
    I have it-- "I now have the phone"
 Anyone want to play Wapner on this one?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:46
28:36)  Jennifer:
 I'm with you, Larry.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:15
28:37)  Mitchell:
 I'm blunt.  I call it a turn-signal.  Always have.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:25
28:38)  Margaret:
 I always refer to it as a turn-signal: I was raised saying melk and pellow,
 which annoys EVERYONE; and I would yell "I got it", though I was always
 informed that "got" was never grammatically correct, so I can sort of
 see where your father is coming from...
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:40
28:39)  Amy:
 Of course there is one other thing that my mother always yelled at me about:
 When I was younger I used to say: "she goes..." instead of "she said..."
 Anyone else have that problem?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:42
28:40)  Mitchell:
 I don't say "she goes" in place of "she says" though hearing other
 people say it annoys me to no end.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:08
28:41)  Stephanie:
 I say "I got it" as I am running to the phone.
 I also tend to say "she goes", but more often, it is "she'ss all", and
 "he's all".... wierd>
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:41
28:42)  Abheek:
 larry, in New Orleans we say po-boy for what they call  a sub 
 here.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:42
28:43)  Jessie:
 Hey Professor L.,  My family is from S. Illinois also.  Mt Vernon and 
 Benton areas to be exact.  I was brought up saying "warsh", "sody"
 (lets not start this thing again.  OK folks?) and EVERY word that
 ends with and -ing, is pronounced -un.  Like ya'll wanna go 
 huntun? It's a riot!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:09
28:44)  John Lawler:
 Re:40 - I don't go "to no end" instead of "no end", though seeing other
 people do it amuses me. :-)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 04:40
28:45)  Onuka:
 In St. Louis, my friends and I would joke about how people south of us
 in Missouri would say melk for milk or wendy for windy while we, of course,
 would say milk and windy.  But here at Michigan, I (and three kids from my 
 highschool) have repeatedly been accused of saying melk and wendy although
 we speak no differently than before and sound normal to each other.  Can
 anyone explain that?  
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:37
28:46)  John Lawler:
 Sure.  Everyone is by definition "normal" to themself.  What else could
 they be?  And we don't notice minor changes in our speech unless we're
 paying careful attention and have some objective standards.  What's
 happened is really the normal thing.
 
 You'd adapted somewhat to the speech of the area you left behind,
 though not enough for you not to notice the differences.  But when
 you moved, your new neighbors noticed your partial adaptation.
 
 I keep telling you all, this phonological stuff is *unconscious*.
 We don't notice it until it's called to our attention, and we
 often don't believe it even then.  But it's very real.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:28
28:47)  Stephanie:
 Like the Michigan twang that all you Michigan-people claim nOT
 to have. My friend Brian and I were on the phone the other day,
 and I said the word Hot and he's all, "You have a Michigan accent!!"
 It was very traumatic. He suggested that I just talk fast and throw
 in some Likes and Totallys and everything would be fine.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 11:21
28:48)  Lee:
 I say turn signal.  I also say "I got it"--for some reason it seems 
 easier to shout across a house or apt. than "I have it"
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:40
28:49)  Mitchell:
 What Michigan accent? :) 
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:34
28:50)  Larry:
 Yeah right, Mitchell?  It took me roughly 3 seconds of UM orientation to
 realize Michiganders "talk funny".  That 'tour' thing (or 'too-er' as you
 probably say it) drives me nuts.  Another one that I noticed frequently
 was that a word like 'Matt' is pronounced (by some Michiganders) 'mee-at'.
 Listen for it. How about 'ruin' being pronounced 'roon'?  It's us 
 Marylanders that have no accent :-)  (Back me up, Lee!)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:41
28:51)  Amy:
 Um..I prefer to think of accents as interesting rather than wierd, or bad.
 Anyone else see what I'm getting at/
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:43
28:52)  John Lawler:
 It's what I was getting at above.  Larry, everybody has an accent.
 The point's been made.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:51
28:53)  Margaret:
 Amy, you are totally correct, accents are very interesting.  Now that
 I am beginning to understand sounds, I can figure out where they are
 differing from my "accent"
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:58
28:54)  Larry:
 Lo siento!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:10
28:55)  Margaret:
 Larry, feel free to translate...
- - - - -
Jan27/94 19:01
28:56)  Stephanie:
 Mitchel: That nasal twang and the way all short 'a's asre pronounced
 as "eeaaaaa" I think it is funny. Of course, my grandma, who immigrated
 to Michigan from Hungary in 1952, claims not to have an accent. Nonne
 at all. I am fond of her saying "Vell, I tink zat yoo shud go, my
 sveet stefi."
- - - - -
Jan27/94 21:58
28:57)  Amy:
 More of these things seem to come to me: my grandparents always say 
 "Put-near" when they mean'just about' or something to that affect. Anyone
 else heard of that?>
- - - - -
Jan27/94 23:18
28:58)  Dawn:
 no, I haven't heard of that one but how do you say tour larry?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 23:44
28:59)  John Lawler:
 That's "purt-near" or "prit-near", and it's short for "pretty near", i.e,
 "almost".  That's pretty common where I come from.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 10:38
28:60)  Amy:
 Oh...they always say it as Put near...but, whatever you say prof. L
- - - - -
Jan28/94 11:52
28:61)  John Lawler:
 Next time you hear it, listen closer to the vowel; you're hearing
 a high lax back rounded vowel (/U/), when what they're probably saying is
 a high lax central rounded vowel (/@r/) with maybe a little
 retroflexion.
 
 When things are made into idioms and spoken fast, it's hard to
 recognize distinctions as close as this.  And if you don't
 understand what they *think* they're saying, you find a new
 meaning for it.  I.e, you have a word "put" and that's the one
 you "hear".
 
 If you ask them, I betcha they'll say they're saying "pritnear".
 Ask them to write it down. They'll claim there's an /r/ in it.
 You weren't expecting one, so you didn't hear it.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 13:04
28:62)  Larry:
 "Grandma, was that a high, lax, back, rounded vowel.... or am I mistaken".
 I guess this would be a great pick-up line at bars too... "Excuse me,
 but I couldn't help but notice that high, lax, back, rounded vowel you
 just uttered."...
- - - - -
Jan28/94 13:05
28:63)  Tom:
 I agree with you Amy.  Accents are preety cool.  It is interesting also to
 find out about the different types of slang that people use.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 13:12
28:64)  Larry:
 Almost forgot.... I pronounce 'tour' so that it rhymes with 'four' and
 'pour'.  (Someone asked)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:18
28:65)  Dale:
 How can you pronounce 'tour' so that if rhymes with 'four' L?
 Wouldn't you be saying 'torre' instead of 'tour' (too-er)?;-)
 Prof. Lawler and Jessie S.: Question;  Since you both are from S. Il
 I was wondering if you have heard the phrase 'I reckon'?  I have some
 friends that live in Marshall, IL (near Terra Haute, IN) and they
 say that all the time.  Is that a substitution for'I guess so'?;-)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:28
28:66)  Lee:
 Dale:  You can pronounce tour as if it rhymes with four--I do. 
 btw, what is torre?  I looked in my dictionary and found torr, 
 tore, and tor (all of which rhyme with four), but not torre.  
 Anyway, you can have different words that are pronounced the same
 they're called homophones.  Hopefully the difference in meanings
 will be distinguishable by the context.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:45
28:67)  Stephanie:
 I have never heard tour pronounced like four, but hey, whatever floats
 your boat, I always say. (Not really)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:47
28:68)  Dale:
 Torre I think is the 'English' spelling of torr which is a measurement
 of pressure.  I guess you're right LB.  
 Because like the words roof,and moor, they can be pronounced differently
 but still mean the same thing (homophones) Cool;-)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:48
28:69)  Dale:
 Is whatever floats your boat a regional thang?  My aunt says it but the
 rest of my family doesn't.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:50
28:70)  Stephanie:
 I dunno about this one--it may or may not be a regionalism, but
 where I am from, we say cot and caught the same way.
  
 But then, we also say funner, so who knows.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:51
28:71)  Stephanie:
 I dunno. We say out on the west coast too, but only when we are making
 fun of someone. 
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:52
28:72)  Dale:
 Funner?  Cool:)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 15:10
28:73)  Katrina:
 I was never made aware of my Michigander accent until I started dating
 a Marylander.  I said high school with the high part rhyming with
 hype and he says high rhyming with pie.  I used to 'dog' him to no end.
 It's not until you are forced to look at someone elses speech
 style that you realize your own.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 15:22
28:74)  John Lawler:
 I'm from Northern Ill, but I've heard "reckon".  It's just another
 word meaning "guess".  Midlands, I reckon.
 
 Katrina, there's "to no end" again.  The idiom is "no end" (no "to"),
 but lots of people have reinterpreted it as "to no end".
 
 As for "funner", that's the comparative form of "fun".  The reason it
 sounds weird is because you can't do a comparative form of a noun,
 and most of the time, "fun" is a noun.  So, you can say
    We had more fun than you.
 but not
   *We had funner than you.
 
 However, there are situations in which "fun" modifies another noun,
 and there it's in the process of being reinterpreted as an adjective.
 I.e, "a fun party" is like "a good party", and if it's an adjective,
 then it *can* have a comparative form, so you *can* say:
    Our party was more fun than yours.
 or
    Our party was funner than yours.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 17:58
28:75)  Stephanie:
 But We say, it was funner than last night's party.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 19:28
28:76)  Dawn:
 I just heard someone say "drop trou'" for drop your pants.  He's from Mass.
 but SAM from Calif.  had heard of it to.  Maybe I'm just not up on the
 unressing lingo.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 02:25
28:77)  Margaret:
 Prof. L, I don't quite understand what you mean by "no end", "to no end".
 Wouldn't it be "to" since it is going "to" an extent?
- - - - -
Jan29/94 12:42
28:78)  John Lawler:
 No, it's an idiom.  It just means "on and on".  If you interpret it
 as ordinary speech, then you'll want to put a "to" on it so that it's
 rationalized to a pattern.  But idioms are their own patterns and
 don't need rationalization.  Consider "home":
 
   He's home / He's at home.
   Let's go home / *Let's go to home.
 
 as opposed to "school":
 
  *He's school / He's at school.
  *Let's go school / Let's go to school.
 
 We're used to the pattern, so its idiosyncracy doesn't register as
 needing rationization.  "no end" is on the way out as an idiom,
 partly because it hasn't really caught on as a literary idiom (and
 thus is encountered only aurally) and partly because there's no
 real need for such an idiom.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 13:07
28:79)  Stephanie:
 I also thoguht it was "to no end", as in, he talked on and
 on...to no end.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:57
28:80)  Larry:
 Somehow, no matter how much anyone rationalizes it, 'funner' is not
 acceptable.  I think everyone should use it in their resumes and then
 wonder why they don't get a response.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 22:04
28:81)  Rob:
 How about "funner than a barrel of monkeys".  It uses the word funner AND it
 is grammatically correct (?), since it is an idiom (or would it be cliche).
 You could use it in everyday speech, but I don't know how you would include
 it in your job resume.  And if you do want to include it then that's your
 business. :)
 Also I think that cwd is also a word.  At least I have seen it mentioned in
 the book "More of the Straight Dope".
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:26
28:82)  Larry:
 Can I buy a vowel???
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:36
28:83)  Katrina:
 Sorry for using "to no end" incorrectly, that's if there is a
 correct use of such a phrase. At least everyone understood
 what I meant and isn't that what language is all about?!
- - - - -
Jan30/94 11:05
28:84)  John Lawler:
 Whoa!  "correct" and "incorrect" are words that don't apply to language. They
 apply to social interactions.  In some situations language that's "correct"
 would be drastically "incorrect" in others.  Now, repeat after me:
 
  "There is no such thing as 'incorrect' language."
 
 You native speakers of English, you have intuitions about what to say and how
 to say it.  And you're right; native speakers' intuitions are the only
 possible scientific basis for the study of language.  But that doesn't mean
 that you can pronounce edicts like "Don't say *this*"; it's almost always the
 case that the reasons why something doesn't work are hard to find out.
 
 And, most of all, learn to question and doubt any prescription about how to
 speak.  Where did anybody come by the knowledge and authority to tell *you*
 what's right and wrong, anyway?  Whenever that happens, just ask the person
 making the claim where it's documented, you didn't know that and you'd like
 to look it up.   99 times out of 100 they'll back off, because they haven't
 got the foggiest idea where it came from.
 
 Treat "correctism" the same way you would racism; it's just an attempt to
 make somebody feel superior by making somebody else feel bad about themself.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 12:54
28:85)  Mitchell:
 Bingo, Rob!  That's where I saw "cwm."  You may find it interesting to
 note, Rob, that a new Straight Dope book will be published later this 
 year: it'll be called "Return of the Straight Dope."  Watch for it.  Let
 me know if you happen to see it in print.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 14:26
28:86)  Rob:
 John, can you be my English TA?  My teacher is always making comments about 
 incorrect usage on my papers, especially about comma splices.  Also I don't
 like the English portions on those standardized tests.  They always brought
 my score down.  It is nice to see that someone else shares my opinion about
 the great opression that grammar has brought to this human race.  I think we
 should start a special interest group.  And I'm happy to see that there will
 be another Straight Dope book, and I suggest to everyone that when it comes 
 out to rush to the bookstores to buy a copy.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:25
28:87)  John Lawler:
 If I was your English TA, Rob, I'd gripe at you even more about comma
 splices.  Ask Jake or Stephanie - they took their freshman comp
 course from me.
 
 You *have* to distinguish between WRITING and SPEAKING.
 They're different.  I know I've said this before, and I'm sure I'll
 say it again.  But you already know how to speak and the official
 experts on how you should speak are really trying to oppress you and
 they should be resisted or ignored.  That's SPEAKING.
 
 WRITING, on the other hand, is modern technology by comparison with
 speaking, and people are *not* born with an innate ability to read
 and write clearly.  They have to learn how in school.  And plenty of
 people don't (and maybe some *can't*) learn how.  Whereas there isn't
 anybody with all parts in working order who doesn't learn to speak
 a language or three fluently.
 
 The problem is that WRITING is *hard*.  You can't put more than a
 few of the kinds of signals that we use to modify what we mean in
 person (no intonation, no pacing, no raised eyebrows, no smiles,
 no attentive posture, no eye contact, ...), so there are lots of
 novel conventions to learn.  Your TA is helping you master them,
 that's all.
 
 Anybody who's having trouble with commas or comma splices in English,
 by the way, should take the simple step of *READING YOUR PAPERS OUT
 LOUD*.  You can *hear* commas.  If you don't hear one, it shouldn't
 go in; whereas if you read something with a comma in the wrong place
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:25
28:88)  John Lawler:
 and pronounce the comma, you can *hear* just how wrong it is.  Very
 simple.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 18:36
28:89)  Stephanie:
 He is one to quibble about commas, though. A better idea, according to
 LWIC last term, is to have someone ELSE read the paper. That way, they
 put their own voice into it. Just for a different perspective.
 I do have to disagree on one point, though. I think the best kind of writing
 is when you can SEE the facial expressions and all that, so the author
 IS there.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:43
28:90)  Lee:
 I agree--too many people can't write these days (and that's not even looking
 at handwriting!)  People have become dependent on their computer/word
 processor's spell and grammar checkers, and have lost their ability to
 produce quality, understandable work. Handwriting is another story.  I
 remember hating handwriting classes when I was in Elementary School, but now
 I'm glad I had them.  I look at other's notes from classes and I can barely
 read them--If I had to make an honest guess as to the age of the author
 (based on handwriting alone) I would honestly guess 11 or 12.  It's really
 scary.  [Some of this poor handwriting may be attributable to the fact that
 my classmates are, for the most part, math majors and decided that as long as
 they can write numbers they are okay-- I don't think so.]
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:52
28:91)  Kevin:
 Grammar checkers (at least, in my experience) aren't worth the computer
 memory they take up.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 12:35
28:92)  John Lawler:
 Too right.  They don't really check anything.  By the end of the
 class, you'll see why.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:12
28:93)  Larry:
 Ditto everything Lee said (Maryland minds must think alike).  I often
 wonder if people can read their own handwriting sometimes.  My philosophy:
 A neat paper will never get below a 'C' grade, no matter what the content
 is.  Somehow my handwriting is very neat, whereas every member of my
 family seems to have taken penmanship lessons from the family doctor.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 16:04
28:94)  Karen :
 First of all---how about some causality for this phenomenon?
 Prof L. tried to steer people that way a while ago---but he 
 may as well have been driving an empty bus. . .
 Not that I don't find this interesting.
 I have one of my own (sort of)
 What are the differences (or more likely gradations)
 of these courtship terms?
 Dating, "seeing", going steady, hooking up, engaged, married,
 Some are fairly independent and most people will agree on going 
 steady, engaged,and married. But the other three?!!!
 It strikes me as odd that dating/mating is one of the most important
 acts that we engage in, and we can not even come up with clear, categorical
 manners to explain dating behaviors.On the other hand, maybe there
 is a way to explain the ambiguity: the whole process is non-sensical and 
 twisted. No, I am not jaded. ;)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 16:38
28:95)  Nicholas:
 That's an interesting one Karen. Funny how language can have words that
 sortof everyone knows what they mean but can't really define them
 accurately... Abstract, eh?
 As for the shades of dating/seeing I myself can't come up with anything
 precise... :)
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:28
28:96)  Lee:
 I'll give it a shot... hooking up: slang term.  I would guess it refers
 mostly to college life
   and high school, especially where parents are gone and parties are
   plentiful.  I would say this term connotes physical interaction
 (kissing,...)
   but does not imply an emotional attachment dating/seeing: in my mind, these
 terms don't have real different meanings.
   they both show some sort of ongoing relationship without the monogamy
   factor. going steady:  monogamy in a couple, although this too often is
 stupid,
   since going steady usually is used with high schoolers (and younger)
   and they usually break up before too many months (or weeks) have past
 engaged: girl gets ring, guy gets poor married: big party, girl can change
 name if she wants to, different income
   tax forms, guy starts transformation to Al Bundy, girl transforms
   into Roseanne Arnold.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 10:33
28:97)  Amy:
 You had my vote for the correct response up until the part about guy gets
 poor married. 
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:48
28:98)  Larry:
 With you again, Lee!  Good chronology too...  
 Going steady is too much of a "Brady Bunch" term.  
 And hooking up seems to be used when someone is bragging about 
 having the power to control who they are "physically interacting"
 (for lack of a better term) with.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 12:17
28:99)  Tom:
 Have to back Lee with his analogy of the terms.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 14:47
28:100)  Joe:
 "Hooking up" - term used by indisciplined people to denote a certain lack of
 responsibility for his or her actions, usually accompanied by a lack of
 respect for a certain other person.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:35
28:101)  Stephanie:
 Disagree with the marriage definition wholeheartedly
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:43
28:102)  Jennifer:
 I agree with Lee up until the marriage part.  I think that hooking up can 
 lead to dating if phone numbers are exchanged.  One thing about hooking up
 though -- many people take it to mean different things.  One of my friends
 got yelled at for saying he hooked up with a girl when all they did was kiss.
 So, is there a true terminology for hooking up?
- - - - -
Feb02/94 16:51
28:103)  Margaret:
 does anyone else notice a male/female trend here?????
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:13
28:104)  Vassoula:
 I think kissing could be considered hooking up.  
 I don't think that it's necessarily disrespectful.
 It just means that you aren't seeing each other
 exclusively because you can hook up with the
 same person more than once.  It could be chemistry.
 Friends that enjoy kissing.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:35
28:105)  Monica:
 I'mgoing to have to agree with Lee also for the most part, that is of course
 until the marriage part-try a new definition. As for hooking up? I think
 that it is an unplanned happening that can once in awhile lead to something
 but most likely not.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:14
28:106)  Kiran:
 I also agree with Lee up until his definition of marriage(but it sure made
 me laugh!)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 21:22
28:107)  John Lawler:
 If we're going to be offensive, folks, we shouldn't talk about these things.
 
 Quite a lot of things that some people find merely funny, other people find
 quite offensive and rude.  So let's all be very polite to one another, shall
 we?  Remember, we're in class.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 22:10
28:108)  Lee:
 For the most part I was somewhat truthful, but with a light tone.
 The marriage part was a joke--please take it as such--if I was 
 serious, I probably wouldn't be engaged now :)
- - - - -
Feb03/94 00:39
28:109)  Lucas:
 Coming from Colorado, many of my friends exaggerate certain consonants.
 For example "yeah" turns into "yeahhhhh"-it sounds kind of like surfer
 talk, as in "yeahhhh, Bro".  Also, many lengthen their R's into an 
 almost southern drawl.  Maybe it's because we're relatively near these
 places (Texas, California) or maybe westerners just talk more slowly
 and that is why they lengthen their consonants.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 01:01
28:110)  Stephanie:
 But Californians tend to swallow letters here and tere to make speaking
 faster easier. Always in a hurry, you know.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 08:51
28:111)  John Lawler:
 *Everybody* does that, folks.  Slightly differently in each place,
 of course, so you notice the difference.  And they notice the way *you*
 do it, too.
 
 Remember, also, it's not *letters* that they're swallowing.  Letters
 are on paper.  What you swallow is in your mouth, i.e, *sounds*.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 09:27
28:112)  Stephanie:
 oops
- - - - -
Feb03/94 19:22
28:113)  Laurie:
 not only rude, but sometimes hurtful.  I think both confer-mates and Prof.s
 (and believe me I'm not thinking of any one in this class, just teaching and
 learning environments in general) need to be aware that people have large
 personal lives out there independant of school and some times what can be
 cute or thought to be "experentially" beneficial to students can be very
 intrusive. what comes to mind is a story my sister-in-law told me of when a
 TA decided mandatory role playing when discussing a novel with a rape scene
 in it was assigned to her friend who recently was raped.  School is school,
 friendships are freindships sometime they merge but not automatically.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 19:55
28:114)  Larry:
 I agree, Laurie.  However, I guess I didn't see what Lee said as really 
 crossing the line IN MY EYES (which is only an opinion).  Not to take
 anything away from what you said though, Laurie....:)\
- - - - -
Feb03/94 21:19
28:115)  John Lawler:
 So fine, let's not dwell on it, just go on.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 20:04
28:116)  Katrina:
 Seeing as I am the poor soul who Lee is planning on marriying I feel I 
 have the right to the final word on this topic.  Believe me Lee has
 reconsidered his definitions on the terms of the dating ritual (at
 least that's what he told me!)  So the topic is dead now.  thanks
 PS  You can send me your condolences on the upcoming nuptuals
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:03
28:117)  Chad:
 My condolences, Katrina.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:21
28:118)  Stephanie:
 I am ever so sorry
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:01
28:119)  Lee:
 Hey Hey Hey.  That's Enough!
 Lay off, will ya?     :|
- - - - -
Feb09/94 12:41
28:120)  Dale:
 When's the funeral, Katrina?:)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 14:05
28:121)  Zachary:
 Best of liXX (oops) luck both of you.  Remember it's a jungle out there.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 29    Jan24/94 22:45     4 lines    61 responses
Katrina                      
Strange Expressions

 This item is for stupid expressions.  I don't know where they came from.
 If you have a reasonable (or not so reasonable) guess give it a shot--
 One examle that comes to mind is my grandsmother's favorite expression,
 "happy as a skunk"

   61 responses
- - - - -
Jan24/94 22:47
29:1)  John Lawler:
 Like "happy as a clam", right?
 
 One of my mother's which I've never understood was:
   I don't care if school keeps.
 Meaning (if you put something here, you have to define it):
   I don't give a damn.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:00
29:2)  Kiran:
 How about "Fit as a fiddle"?
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:31
29:3)  Henry:
 I like "Cold as hell" myself.
- - - - -
Jan24/94 23:46
29:4)  Mitchell:
 I absolutely abhor "listen up" and its bastard kin "what's up."
 I HATE THAT LATTER PHRASE, so much so that I'm tempted to use
 snappy remarks to anyone who uses that lame phrase:
 1) Heaven.
 2) An adverb meaning the opposite of down.
 I have a feeling I ought to blame Friz Freleng for this mess.
 Anyone else have any snappy remarks?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 02:13
29:5)  Anand:
 We have a new slogan on our hall, "It's dirty...." Everthing something goes
 wrong or something's not right we say, "It's dirty." I don't know how we got
 it or where we got it from, but its caught on throughout the hall.  If
 someone's doing an all-nighter, as I am trying to finish this Swahili
 homework, we would say "That's dirty."
- - - - -
Jan25/94 08:50
29:6)  Stephanie:
 "Lost as Job's Turkey
- - - - -
Jan25/94 10:29
29:7)  Tom:
 The new phrase at my scholar house used among the Freshman and Sophomores
 is "shae" rather asking your friend "what's up."
- - - - -
Jan25/94 15:09
29:8)  Rob:
 I think the worst phrase in the English language is "head over heels" as an
 expression of joy.  Can someone tell me when your head is not over your
 heels? Also what happens when you are depressed?  Should you say heels over
 head? :)
- - - - -
Jan25/94 15:44
29:9)  Mitchell:
 Shae?  I don't believe  I've heard that one, Tom.  Would you 
 happen to know where it came from, and how it came about (and how do you
 pronounce it?  I guess it's like "shy")
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:15
29:10)  Margaret:
 I suppose your head could not be over your heels when you are sick...ie-
 after a terrible night of drinking, which would certainly be the opposite
 of joy!!!!!!  My friend uses the phrase "That's dirty" for just about 
 everything, but she also uses the phrase "Random" for almost everything,
 which I unfortunately picked up...it's a little annoying!
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:07
29:11)  Amy:
 Ok...my grandmother has always said "I"ll be jiggered" when she was confused.
 I always thought that was cool. I think thats it.
 Of course, a personal favorite of mine is the immortal "RUN AWAY!" from 
 Monty Python and the Holy Grail. (I'm a monty Python freak!)
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:37
29:12)  John Lawler:
 My word, I've never thought about "head over heels" that way.  You're
 absolutely correct, it's weird, Rob.  Dunno where it comes from,
 but I always had a picture of somebody flipping; guess I thought it
 was *really* "heels over head".  But it's not, is it?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 22:48
29:13)  Mitchell:
 Saynomore, Amy, saynomore.  Nudge nudge wink wink.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:36
29:14)  Larry:
 How about "doggone"?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 00:15
29:15)  Dawn:
 Piss like a race-horse for I am in desperate need of a restroom.
 One of my friends back home says it .
- - - - -
Jan26/94 10:21
29:16)  Amy:
 By the way, I can outquote anyone when it comes to Monty Python. Anyone want
 to challenge me? :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:05
29:17)  Jennifer:
 Dawn, my friends also say they have to piss like a racehorse or take an eight
 ball piss.  Its basically a guy thing though.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:30
29:18)  Jill:
 not true all my friends at home that are girls say they have to piss like a
 racehorse
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:36
29:19)  Larry:
 Doesn't anyone say "Piss like a Russian racehorse"?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:20
29:20)  Mitchell:
 Amy, the following is one of 3 Python quotes.  See if you can tell
 me the significance they all share: "I'd like to welcome the pommy
 bastard to God's own earth and I'd like to remind him that we don't
 like stuck-up sticky beaks here."  Tell me your guess.  If you're
 wrong, I'll type the second quote. If still wrong, then I'll type
 the third.  
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:26
29:21)  Lida:
 My mom always says "piss like a racehorse." 
 Amy- I *love* the holy grail* it might actually be
 my favorite movie.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:30
29:22)  Margaret:
 We should start a MONTY PYTHON item...
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:42
29:23)  Amy:
 YES!!!! Monty Python item should be right here!!!! Um...gee Mitchell you
 really have me stumped. Is it from a movie or a sketch? I'll guess Life of
 Brn...but, that is not it I'm sure.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:45
29:24)  Mitchell:
 Actually, that quote was from Episode 22, but that's not what I'm looking
 for.  Anyway, here's quote #2: 
 I cut down trees, I skip and jump,
 I like to press wild flowers.
 I put on women's clothing.
 And hang around in bars.
 What's special about both of these quotes?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:46
29:25)  Amy:
 Um...well, I know that whole song...and the only thing I can think of that
 could be similiar would be the actor that said them? That would be Eric
 Idle...
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:09
29:26)  Stephanie:
 What abot Piss like a big dog.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:38
29:27)  Abheek:
 what about I got to take an asparagus piss?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:46
29:28)  Mitchell:
 Nice try, Amy.  Still not what I'm looking for.  Okay, here's quote #3:
 "This parrot is no more.  It has ceased to be.  It's expired and gone
 to see its maker.  This is a late parrot.  Bereft of life, it rests in
 peace.  If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up
 the daisies.  It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir
 invisible.  This is an ex-parrot.
 (Here's an extra hint: think books.)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:47
29:29)  Jessie:
 Anyone ever heard "happy as a pig in shit"?  I always thought that 
 that was really strange.  My best friends 
 dad says it all the time.  Every time he does, I have to laugh.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:56
29:30)  Kiran:
 "Happy as a pig in shit" is pretty funny.  Also one of my best friends
 always says "piss like a big dog".
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:10
29:31)  John Lawler:
 Geez, Mitchell, even *I* know those ones.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:53
29:32)  Mitchell:
 Professor Lawler inadvertedly gave you one BIG HINT, Amy.  Remember,
 think books.  (anyone else who would like to play along is welcome to)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 21:01
29:33)  John Lawler:
 Since there's already a Python item, I feel justified putting this
 here.  I've received this message from Calvin:
  
  Is this class graded on a curve?     Thanks
  
 And my reply:
  
 No.  This class is not particularly competitive, and I encourage
 discussion and sharing ideas.  I get quite enough information to
 distinguish who's trying and who's not without setting up an
 accounting system.
 
 If you're interested, I can give you the Pascal program I used to
 rank the students last term, plus the inputs and outputs (without
 names, of course).  Basically, all it does is count up points
 and give a final score out of 100.  I assign letter grades at
 more or less natural boundaries and the average grade was in the
 B range last term.  I'm expecting this term's grades to average
 considerably higher, judging from the class reaction, but it's
 too early to tell from the graded assignments for sure.
 
 Does that answer your question?  I'm going to put this on the
 conference, by the way.  This is a perfectly reasonable question
 to ask, and I've been asked it many times in class.
 
 Cheers,
 -j
- - - - -
Jan26/94 21:10
29:34)  Mitchell:
 Question: by "natural boundaries" you mean the approximate
 ranges found on the syllabus, right John?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 21:50
29:35)  John Lawler:
 Yes, but I try to look for big groupings, if there are any.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 00:31
29:36)  Monica:
 Monica
 I thought this item was on sayings? My mom always says "That'll cost an arm
 and a Leg" I hate that one. I sometimes use " I'm off, like a prom dress" of
 course only in appropriate situations.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 02:19
29:37)  Jin Ho:
 How about weird words. In Iceland, they call popcorn "pop", and soda "fizz"
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:30
29:38)  Stephanie:
 When my friend leaves the rom or something he says, "I'm gonna make like
 a baby and head out." Ewwww
- - - - -
Jan27/94 11:28
29:39)  Lee:
 This last bunch is pretty funny, but also explainable.  They may be silly,
 but arm&a leg, prom dress, baby are all understandable (although they
 can also be construed as offensive).  Does anybody have any guesses 
 about where some of the less obvious ones came from?  I had the same 
 thought John did on "head over heels" but I never gave much thought
 to the fact that if it is a reference to flipping it should be reversed. 
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:43
29:40)  Larry:
 I like the "asparagus piss" one.  I'm still trying to figure out the
 "happy as a pig in shit" one, Jessie.  Maybe it's a Milford thang...
 "Off like a prom dress" has become almost commonplace among my friends.
 These are great, keep 'em coming!
 Now, as for those who keep quoting Monty Python, I am reminded of the 
 'Saturday Night Live' skit with William Shattner at the Star Trek
 convention, when he addressed everyone and told them to "get a life".
 I'm just loking around-- Mitchell, Amy, Prof. Lawler (especially Prof.
 Lawler, since he controls my grade ;) )    (*that should say 'joking' in
 the above line)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:43
29:41)  Amy:
 AAARRGGGHHH!!!!! I'm so upset with myself! I thought I knew all the Monty Py
 Python there was! The only thing that came to mind was Seinfeld when you 
  sent that last message. PLEASE tell me! I'm sore ashamed! :(
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:53
29:42)  Amy:
 Monty Python is my life! :) 
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:59
29:43)  Larry:
 Not sayin' a word, Amy  ;-)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:11
29:44)  Margaret:
 At least she will admit it! I know I have a lot of peculiarities that I 
 won't admit...not to offend, Amy, I love Monty!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 20:29
29:45)  Rob:
 Another stupid phrase that came to mind that is appropiate for the weather
 right now is "raining cats and dogs".  Can anyone tell me when they have seen
 cats and dogs falling from the sky?  I have heard of frogs, fish, coins,
 rocks, slime, shredded raw meat, and leaves falling from the sky (I'm not
 making this up) but not cats or dogs.  I think from now on we should say it
 is raining fishes and frogs. :)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 21:55
29:46)  Mitchell:
 I believe you, Rob.  I've read about some of the more gross things
 falling under the guise of "rain."  But I haven't the foggiest idea
 where that phrase came from.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 23:45
29:47)  John Lawler:
 It's just exaggeration to emphasize, like when you say
 "blasted out of his mind" when you just mean falling-down drunk.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 02:27
29:48)  Margaret:
 Rob, could you please elaborate when you have heard of fishes and frogs
 falling from the sky????????  This sounds rather interesting...:)
- - - - -
Jan29/94 13:22
29:49)  Anand:
 Can anyone please tell me where "Dude" came from.  I hate when people say
 "Dude, man wha'ts going up?", it sounds so corney//
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:28
29:50)  Mitchell:
 Here is what the American Heritage Dictionary says as to the origin
 of the word "dude": [Origin unknown].  Your guess is as good as anyone
 else's, Anand.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:46
29:51)  Rob:
 Probably the best place to find out about strange stuff falling from the sky 
 (frogs, fishes, etc.) is to look under the paranormal or occult section of
 the library.  You are bound to find a book that has a chapter on fish and 
 frog falls.  Also you might want to try looking under the weather section,
 but I doubt you will find anything.  Also I remember reading a book about
 odd natural phenomenom, but I forgot the name.  
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:25
29:52)  Stephanie:
 Dude is an integral part of my vocabulary, and my friend Olivia from
 CA says it more than I do. It is just a filler to start a sentence.
 Much like um and well, only much more annoying. But a common conversation
 would go something like this:
   "Dude, I saw her the other day with some dude, and, dude, she was
   like laughing and all, and I like sorta said, 'Dude, whats to funny',
   and she like looked at me and totally stared me down, and I am all,
   .....
 I really am not exaggerating too much. I think dude may have origingated
 on the beaches with all the surfboy lingo.
  
 I have one more thing to add. I know that this discussion is over and
 done with, but last night I talked to a friend at Morehouse, and he
 said that his friends from Louisiana call pop/soda a "co' drink"
  as in, Doug, gimme a co' drink."
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:59
29:53)  Larry:
 Stephanie, that dialogue sounded like the "GAP girls" from Saturday
 Night Live... :)
- - - - -
Jan29/94 18:38
29:54)  Mitchell:
 Definitely!
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:26
29:55)  Larry:
 Like... thought so!  :)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:39
29:56)  Katrina:
 I think that dude originated in the west when there were ranchers
 and cowboys and dude was a generic term used for a ranch hand.  I
 am hazarding a guess but it makes sense to me.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 11:03
29:57)  Stephanie:
 Good guess. You are probably right.
 Oh yeah, we do sound like the GAP girls, whilch I why I find that skit
 so hilarious. Plus, I have friends who work at the GAP, and they resemble
 the skit even more. But a lot of CA teenagers DO talk like that. We also
 say it in one breath and dont stop between words. When I came back from
 break I have to consciously slow myself down. Y'all would laugh if you
 went into the valley and heard them talking--have you seen Bill and ted?They 
 were not exaggerating all that much
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:46
29:58)  Jennifer:
 Where I live, people who talk like the GAP girls are basically hicks.  I
 think its just a Michigan thing though.  I went to high school with a guy who
 talks exactly like the GAP girls, and since they are really guys, I find it
 incredibly funny.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 18:38
29:59)  Stephanie:
 The guys do it to,, but they just dont get the same intonation and
 high pitchedness that the valley girls do. And then hthere are those
 of us who learn to imitate them and make fun, and then they all say,
 "Do I REALLY sound likee that?' We all went through a stage in the
 early teens when we all talked valley. WE sounded lame. I have tapes.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:20
29:60)  Kevin:
 One note about strange things falling from the sky.  For even more
 information on this and other strange things, look for the works of Charles
 Fort.  He collected all sorts of information about when these things would
 happen. Also, there's the Fortean Times, which is devoted to this sort of
 thing. For those of you who can't live w/o terminology, a term for this sort
 of thing is "forteana."
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:43
29:61)  Rob:
 Kevin's right.  I have a book that is some of the best from the Fortean
 Times. It is available at Border's Bookstore.  Also there is a book called
 "Unexplained" by Arthur C. Clarke and another book "Great American Mysteries"
 that talk about falling objects.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 30    Jan25/94 02:17     5 lines    11 responses
Anand                         
-

 Anand Me and my hall are having a dilema.  This is just for fun, but
 across my room are three of my closest friends named Ray, Ugur, and Adam. 
 Recently they have just put a billboard, and we've beginning making slogans
 out of their name For instance, "Rayzed from the dead" or "Adam Bomb" etc....
 So if you guys have any, please contribute!!  :->

   11 responses
- - - - -
Jan25/94 09:46
30:1)  Mitchell:
 Question: how is Ugur pronounced, like "you-goor"?  President Ray-gun
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:50
30:2)  Jessie:
 How about "Let me Ad'am (at 'em)"?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:58
30:3)  Kiran:
 I'm not sure if this one works , but: I don't give A-dam. (a damn)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 20:19
30:4)  Jill:
 good one kiran
 how about Ray-zin hell
- - - - -
Mar10/94 08:42
30:5)  John Lawler:
 Just to put this someplace (it's too long for a bulletin):
  East Quadrangle Resident Staff proudly present The Twenty-Seventh Annual
           _       __   ____     __  ___   ______   _   __   _    ___
     | |     / /  / __ \   /  |/  /  / ____/  / | / /  ( )  / ___/
     | | /| / /  / / / /  / /|_/ /  / __/    /  |/ /   |/   \__ \
     | |/ |/ /  / /_/ /  / /  / /  / /___   / /|  /        ___/ /
     |__/|__/   \____/  /_/  /_/  /_____/  /_/ |_/        /____/
      _       __   ______   ______   __ __    ______   _   __   ____
     | |     / /  / ____/  / ____/  / //_/   / ____/  / | / /  / __ \
     | | /| / /  / __/    / __/    / ,<     / __/    /  |/ /  / / / /
     | |/ |/ /  / /___   / /___   / /| |   / /___   / /|  /  / /_/ /
     |__/|__/  /_____/  /_____/  /_/ |_|  /_____/  /_/ |_/  /_____/
  
  THURSDAY MAR 10 (that's *TODAY*)
    *Keynote Speaker:  Jacquelynne Eccles, Chair of Combined Program
                       in Education and Psychology
  
     "What's Driving Young Women Away from Math and Social Science?"
  
    -7pm School of Education Schorling Auditorium.
    -8pm Informal reception in East Quad, Benzinger library.
         Light refreshments will be served.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 09:19
30:6)  Stephanie:
 I am there!
- - - - -
Mar10/94 17:16
30:7)  Jake:
 I am here!
- - - - -
Mar10/94 17:33
30:8)  Mitchell:
 John, did you really type all that?  If so, how long did it take?  I
 like the design.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 20:51
30:9)  John Lawler:
 Nah, I got it in the mail and just posted it.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 21:18
30:10)  Jin Ho:
 Yeah,, we women are so great we need a whole weekend devoted to celebrating
 our... femininity
- - - - -
Mar11/94 13:11
30:11)  Larry:
 Not gonna say a word, Jin... ;)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 31    Jan25/94 15:07     2 lines    54 responses
John Lawler                        
Spanish phoneme problem

 This is the item to discuss your analyses of the Spanish phoneme
 problem due on Thursday.

   54 responses
- - - - -
Jan25/94 15:46
31:1)  Mitchell:
 Question: we're supposed to give analyses ONLY  on the Spanish
 phoneme problem for Thursday?  
 Am I guilty of a concentration lapse?  I thought we needed to do
 both.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 16:00
31:2)  Mitchell:
 Behold!  Number 1 and 25 are the same: wedding.  Anyway, another
 question: for this assignment (the Spanish part at least) do we have
 to determine the phonemic distribution of the 6 phonemes, or of the
 9 sounds?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 17:44
31:3)  Henry:
 For the Spanish, I do not see how to use minimal pairs to find the 
 variations in phonemes.  Like numbers 5 and 6 when the words are
 the same except for the one *possible* allophone.  The sounds I
 see with allophones do not seem to be in minimal pairs at all and
 the conditioning environment seems to be determined by just one rule.
 I might be wrong.  Otherwise, my wirte-up will be about 14 words.
 What's up, Mitchell? 
- - - - -
Jan25/94 19:22
31:4)  Jennifer:
 I think I'm lost!  I don't get any of this.  You guys must think I'm the
 biggest airhead.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:17
31:5)  Margaret:
 Jennifer, don't despare, you can join me "linguistically-challenged" support
 group.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 20:24
31:6)  Mitchell:
 Don't be hard on yourself, Jennifer.  I feel the same as you.  Here's
 what I have figured out (it's not much, but better than nothing)
 The three sounds that don't have phonemes (the ones that don't look like
 recognizable English letters) all occur between vowels with two
 exceptions: 1) when it's at the end of a word (like #9) or 2) when
 it's followed by an "r".  That's all I can muster so far.  Hope this
 helps.  But I'm pretty much clueless too; just EXACTLY are we supposed
 to do for Thursday?;  check that: WHAT exactly are we supposed to
 do...?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:17
31:7)  John Lawler:
 OK, let's take it a step at a time.
 
 First, you're not looking for morphemes, you're strictly looking at
 sounds.  In particular, you're looking for all the occurrences of
 the nine sounds in the list.  OK so far?
 
 Second, you can break those nine sounds up into three homorganic
 groups (remember "homorganic"?).  Generally, what is true of one
 of the groups will likely work for the others, too.
 
 Third, you use the same techniques (make lists of the items you're
 analyzing; check the immediate environments; find the pattern) you
 use for morphemic analysis to do this, too.
 
 So...  Pick one homorganic group to start with, and make three
 lists.  That's not so hard, right?  Go to it.
- - - - -
Jan25/94 21:22
31:8)  John Lawler:
 Incidentally, I have received this message from Kevin:
 
  Professor L,
 
  in class, you wrote up the Korean /s/ as      [z] / N___
                                               [s^] / ___V(f)
                                                [s] / elsewhere
 
  my question is this:  does writing it this way relieve you/me/us of
  saying [s^] / ___V(f) except N___     (can it be implied that way?)
 
 And I replied: A good question.  Somewhere, somehow, the fact that the
 post-nasal voicing takes precedence over the palatalization before front
 vowels has to be stated.  This might be a general principle of Korean, or it
 might be a special case of such a principle (we don't know, in fact).  So
 it's probably wise to make such a statement somewhere in the analysis, if
 only to make it clear that you noticed the potential conflict in the rules.
 
 I'm going to put this on the conference, by the way.  Next time, go public
 :-)
- - - - -
Jan25/94 22:55
31:9)  Mitchell:
 But are we supposed to do both Korean and Spanish for Thursday, or
 just Spanish?
- - - - -
Jan25/94 23:45
31:10)  Larry:
 Mitchell, I think we do only Spanish.  Am I the only one who has a 
 little bit of an advantage on this assignment... three years ago
 I took Spanish 358, a course on Spanish pronunciation.  We learned
 everything necessary for the homework.  Some quick solutions:
    B's and V's are pronounced the same:  As a hard B after m,n and 
 at the beginning of a phrase *(in this case a word).  Otherwise, they
 are a soft b/v mixture.
    D's are pronounced as a hard D after l,n and at the beginning of
 a phrase *(a word in this case).  Otherwise it is a d/th mixture.
    Voiceless consonants generate no air after the sound (p,k,t).
 I haven't looked at the assignment, but I think this should help
 some of you.... :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 01:07
31:11)  Anand:
 Mitchell? I think you were asking something about what minimal pairs do
 for you?  Well, in #5 and 6 we can see that only the first letter is 
 changing, indicating that this maybe a minimal pair.  From this analysis,
 we can conclude that p- and b- are two different phonemes in Spanish.
 I hope, that can be a little help!!! :->
- - - - -
Jan26/94 07:23
31:12)  John Lawler:
 Sorry, I forgot to mention about Korean.
 
 You do *not* do Korean for Thursday.  We did it in class.  Only Spanish.
 That clear enough?
 
 Larry, the rules you quoted are for Spanish *spelling*.  Just so that
 they don't confuse others who don't have access to the spellings of
 the words (the data are transcribed phonetically), please note that
 on the problem:
 
    o  [b] is *always* a voiced bilabial stop
    o  there is no "v".  There is, however, a <beta>, which is a
       voiced bilabial fricative, similar to a [v].  And it is
       *not* pronounced the same as a [b].  Everything with a
       different symbol is pronounced differently; that's the *point*
       of phonetic transcription.
    o  "hard" and "soft" are not phonetic terms.  They're impressionistic
       and don't indicate how the sounds in question are in fact
       pronounced.  One might as well use "blue" and "green".
    o  there is nothing on the assignment about aspiration of voiceless
       stops.
 
 And, as for minimal pairs (which I promised I would touch on here),
 Anand has the right of it directly above.  Take a look at 5 and 6
 and consider what that tells you about [p] and [b].  Then consider
 what the possibilities are for <beta>.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 13:33
31:13)  Rob:
 I am still greatly confused about minimal pairs.  I need HEEELLLLPPPP!!! How
 can you find them, and does the fact that peso and beso mean different things
 means that they are or are not minimal pairs?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 14:28
31:14)  Tom:
 I hear you Rob!!!!  I need help with that also.  
- - - - -
Jan26/94 15:27
31:15)  Calvin:
 Prof. Lawler,you mentioned in class this Tuesday that there are at least four
 characteristics (I think) of phonological conditioning. I didn't quite catch
 all of them. One of them is its independence of a word's context,right?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:00
31:16)  Calvin:
 Guys, this is what I found. The 3 homorganic sets are [b,p,beta],[t,d,barred 
  d], and [k,g,looped y]. The 1st set is vocalized thru the lips (bilabial);
 the 2nd set, thru the velar area; the 3rd, thru the dental region.   Notice
 that eachset contains one fricative which will "allophonize" with another
 member of the set.  These two allphones do have something in common that
 unpaired one doesn't.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:17
31:17)  Jennifer:
 Mitchel, I basically figured out everything that you did today when I looked
 at the assignment.  The only problem is that I don't think that there was
 much of a pattern to all of this.  And I don't understand what minimal pairs
 have to do with the phonemes or the patterns or whatever.  I'm getting a
 little stressed over this because I can't figure it out at all, and I can't
 work on it all night because of other classes.
 
 
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:43
31:18)  Larry:
 As Professor Lawler suggested, disregard my prior response on this 
 item.  Prof Lawler, I looked at the assignment last night and it does
 follow exactly what I said.  I don't see how that was 'spelling'; it seems
 like pronunciation to me.  Now I'm really confused!  The hard and soft
 I spoke of translate (in my mind) to b and beta OR d and barred d.  Am I
 still wrong here? ?#?&*?@  :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 16:49
31:19)  Sean:
 Right on, Calvin.  I think that you are on the right track (and I thank you
 for dragging me onto that track along with you).  I also think that some of
 the sounds that are used on this exercize are determined by "stressed"
 vowels; I know that at least one appears to be, but I am still unsure how
 stressed vowels might affect the other sounds.  At any rate, it's times
 like these that I wish that I had taken Spanish, and not French, in high
 school.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 17:02
31:20)  Jake:
 Well, I got three of the 6 phonememes. Someone please post the others,
 cause I'm really stuck. I think d- and B might be a pair, but
 John said only to look at the homorganic sounds, right. So that means
 they couldn't be.
  
 Anyway, here's my three:
 b and B:
  B occurs between vowels
  b occurs elsewhere
  
 d and d-
  d occurs at the beginning of a syllable
  d- occurs at the end ""
  
 g and the funky y <vvf>
  g occurs at the beginning of syllables
  <vvf> occurs at the end ""
- - - - -
Jan26/94 17:03
31:21)  Jake:
 Another question:
  How long is this supossed to be?
  What are we supposed to write down? Just the phonemes?
  Seems a bit short...
- - - - -
Jan26/94 17:26
31:22)  Henry:
 There are six phonemes.  What *exactly* is the difference between the
 "phonemic distribution" and the "conditioning environment".  Additionally,
 do we have to say anything about  the 3 phonemes that do not have 2 
 different allophones?  Or do we just have to do something like what
 Kevin showed, that is will just a rule that specifies the 
 conditioning environment be enough for this homework? Professor L?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 17:59
31:23)  Jake:
 You mean I have all of them?
 That only 3 of the phonemes have mor than one allomorph?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 18:38
31:24)  Mitchell:
 I think that "conditioning environment" refers to different
 surrounding and adjacent letters, that govern which letters are
 used.  Phonemic distribution, I think ,  just refers to these
 patterns of conditioning environments.  Hope this helps, though
 I may be wrong.  If it turns out I'm wrong, I apologize in
 advance for making anyone any more confused.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:09
31:25)  Sarah:
 Hi, guys. Just wanted to comment on the Korean problems we did.
 I'm a native Korean and have been speaking Korean for 17 whole years.
 But I've never been aware of the S, C, Z sounds even once!
 I don't think it ever sounds like Z though. Youguys will agree if you 
 hear me saying the words, too. :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:51
31:26)  Kiran:
 After reading all this, I'd like to thank everyone for all the help, but
 I'm still confused.  Jake, I agree with everything you got with one 
 exception.  I think that in #27, the "d with a tail" is at the 
 beginning of a syllable.  I'm not really sure, but I just thought I'd
 point it out. Does anyone else have any more help???
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:30
31:27)  John Lawler:
 OK, let's see if I can answer some questions.  First, if there
 are nine allomorphs and six phonemes, it stands to reason that
 three of them at least are going to have only one allophone,
 right?
 
 It's interesting to notice that you [pl] seem to believe you
 understand complementary distribution (which has to do with
 the conditioning environment) better than contrast (which ahs
 to do with minimal pairs).  Usually it's the other way around.
 
 What is a minimal pair? It's a pair of words that mean different
 things (important), which are *almost* the same in sound, except
 for one segment.  Like "beet" and "peat", or "thy" and "thigh"
 or "beet" and "bit".  Or "beso" and "peso" in Spanish, right?
 Well, the fact that "beet" and "bit" are reliably perceived as
 different can only be due to our reliably perceiving the difference
 between the [i] in "beet" and the [I] in "bit", so that shows
 they're two different phonemes, /i/ and /I/.
 
 I wouldn't worry about any canonical "four characteristics of phonological
 conditioning", Calvin.  Lemme see.. it's usually adaptation of some sound
 reacting to some other sound that's close, so you want to look for
 things that are close first.  Right next is most common, but it can
 be at some distance, too, like vowel harmony.  There are a number of
 kinds of adaptation, like palatalization (the Korean [s^], for instance).
 The more you get to understand about the way the sounds are pronounced,
 the more likely hypotheses you can form.  Is that four yet?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:44
31:28)  Nicholas:
 Prof L. What exactly is homorganic? Of same structure?
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:44
31:29)  John Lawler:
 Oh, and, yes, it's independent of the word's *meaning* and *grammar*,
 but "context" is such a broad word it's often used to include the
 sounds in the neighborhood as well as the meanings.  But that's why
 it's called "phonological" conditioning, to distinguish it from
 (say) lexical or semantic conditioning.  Lexical conditioning
 (lex- means "word") is like man/men - it depends on what *word* it
 is, and it's very arbitrary.  Semantic conditioning is like the
 noun class of "beasts of house and hunt" that have zero plural
 markers: sheep/sheep, deer/deer, salmon/salmon, fish/fish, etc.
 
 By the way, Mitchell has it said very nicely in :24 above.  That's
 right.  And Jake's allophone distribution is right.  But why not
 compare [p] and [b]?  Or [p] and [beta]?  There are three possible
 combinations of the three sounds, after all.  You were right to
 rule them out, but *how* did you rule them out?  You should be
 able to say.
 
 A 1-page or less response should be sufficient, I think.  This
 really *is* a simple  problem.  Sometimes people see the answer
 right away and think I'm after some superhypertheoretical
 tough thing and don't realize how simple it is.  You need to
 slow down and observe your analytic facility and report on it.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:47
31:30)  John Lawler:
 I didn't see your question, Nicolas.  Yes, "of same structure".  Pronounced
 in the same place in the mouth, like [p] and [m] or [k] and [x].
 We say that [m] is the nasal that's homorganic to [p], or that
 [p] is the stop that's homorganic with [m], or that [p] and
 [m] are homorganic.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 21:08
31:31)  Mitchell:
 I think I finally have this nut cracked.  Here's what I did: I made a
 3 by 3 matrix; that is, one square evenly divided into 9 smaller
 squares.  I labelled the rows with the names of the organic types
 of sounds (velar, labial, dental) and labelled the columns as to
 their voiceness (voiced, voiceless, fricatives).  Keep in mind that
 you don't have to follow what's here to precision; remember this is
 just a suggestion and you can change it to best suit your needs.
 Anyway, after making the grid, I reviewed my lists, looking for
 any patterns I could find.  I filled in the boxes of my grid
 with quick descriptions of those patterns, all the while looking
 --oops, make that shifting--my focus between the individual
 squares and the whole grid.  Patterns are evident.  This should
 help anyone who is still befuddled.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 21:46
31:32)  Tom:
 Thanks to everyone who helped out.  I was completely lost until I read 
 through the information.  I think I know how I should do it now.  Well
 I'll find out soon.  Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 22:26
31:33)  Mitchell:
 You're welcome, Tom.  BTW, (I forgot to post what I'm about to
 now announce) I was invited to represent the University of Michigan
 on behalf of its College Bowl Scout team ("scout" being the equivalent
 of junior varsity).  We will play in two regional inter-collegiate
 tournaments.  The first will be Next Friday (Feb. 4) in Madison
 on the campus of the University of Wisconsin.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:01
31:34)  Melissa:
 Thanks for your help, everyone.  But I can't tell if all this helped
 me or more thoroughly confused me!  It turns out, I had the phonemes
 paired correctly, but I think I had different environmental rules 
 governing use.  AARGH.  I have a feeling that Prof. Lawler is right
 and that I'm making it more complicated than it is.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:17
31:35)  Jennifer:
 I think I'm starting to get this, but I'm not sure.  I'll go and try some
 more.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 00:08
31:36)  Margaret:
 I agree with Melissa, I need to go look at it some more to figure out if 
 I am completely lost or not...but I really appreciate all the input
 from those people that understand...:)!
- - - - -
Jan27/94 02:30
31:37)  Jin Ho:
 I know this is straying a little, but I think there
 's a typo.  The sheet says "
 da"(oops, I mean "ada") for 
 "given".  But given in spanish is "dado".  "ada" is a suffix.
 Is this right Prof. Lawler?
- - - - -
Jan27/94 07:42
31:38)  John Lawler:
 Yeah, that's true.  Thanks, Jin Ho.  "dada" (or "dado", masculine) *is*
 'given' in Spanish.  That's the spelling.  Phonetically, the second "d"
 is a <barred-d>, while the first (and missing) one is a real [d].
 
 Congratulations, Mitchell.
 
 There should be one environment where the fricative allophones always
 occur, and another where there may not be enough data for all of
 them.  But the stop allophones won't occur in either one.
 
 Hint: there *is* such a thing as a phonological "word".  I.e, we
       can change sounds depending on where in the word a sound
       appears, without being accused of "lexical conditioning".
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:03
31:39)  Nicholas:
 Go Mitchell, go Prof! Thank you very much you were able to help me make
 some sense out of all of this confused stuff! This conference has now
 officially taught more than my expectations! :)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:23
31:40)  Tom:
 Well I think I got some of it.  But what i Lexicol conditioning?  I still
 do not understand what it is or how it ties into the homework.  But ttt
 do not understand what it is or how it ties into the homework.  But then
 again I do but I just don't realize it.  Can someone PLease help!  I
 think I've got most of it atleast.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:34
31:41)  Stephanie:
 I am still totally lost, but I am just handing in what I have.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:19
31:42)  John:
 Thanks for all your help guys.  You made some sense out of this for me.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:25
31:43)  Melissa:
 I also give my thanks for everyone's help.  Especially Jake and Mitchel.  
 That 3x3 grid was a good idea.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:29
31:44)  John Lawler:
 That's a paradigm, useful for other purposes besides morphology.
 
 Actually, I think y'all did pretty well on this [too early to
 say, of course, but judging by the discussion here].  This can
 be a *very* confusing concept, but it's *key* for understanding
 linguistics.  Not to mention anthropology (they call it "The
 Emic Principle" (well, so do linguists, sometimes)).
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:33
31:45)  Lida:
 this helped me a bit, thanks everybody
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:39
31:46)  Melissa:
 I knew about paradigms, but that particular one helped me figure out 
 exactly why I had already excluded the voiceless phonemes.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:46
31:47)  Mitchell:
 I'm glad I could help.  You're welcome.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 19:03
31:48)  Stephanie:
 still lost
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:25
31:49)  Dale:
 Thanks everyone.  The tips helped a lot. :-)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:13
31:50)  Vassoula:
 Thanks everyone for the help, but I'm dstill really
 lost in this class.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 01:39
31:51)  Kevin:
 askdfjasd;f;sld;lskjdfa;ljkf;alsf;lakj;lsdjaf;ljkasf;lja;sldf;lasf;lasdf;l;dl
 ;las;lasdf;lsajfd;lals;fas;l
- - - - -
Mar03/94 10:44
31:52)  Dawn:
 what???
- - - - -
Mar03/94 16:08
31:53)  Henry:
 That looks like something we went over in class today.  Hmmmmmmmmm
- - - - -
Mar04/94 01:16
31:54)  Larry:
 Nah, Henry, the words are too short and there are no glottal stops every
 three letters. ;)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 32    Jan26/94 19:57     2 lines   159 responses
Nicholas                    
Holy Grail/Monty Python

 This is the Holy Grail/Monty Python item. Feel free to discuss and quote at
 leisure! :) hee hee! 

  159 responses
- - - - -
Jan26/94 19:59
32:1)  Nicholas:
 This is kind of a fun one but it's totally unrelated to class. So
 Professor, if you think it's unapropriate please delete it. If you think
 it's ok, maybe students should be given the option to forget it if they
 aren't interested... ?:)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:00
32:2)  Nicholas:
 My personnal favorite in HG is:
 'She turned my into a newt once, she did!' ... I got bettah... :)
- - - - -
Jan26/94 20:32
32:3)  John Lawler:
 Everybody can forget any item they like.  I can tell pretty
 easily who's contributing to the serious items and who's
 not.  If you do forget an item, it's up to you to figure out
 how to unforget it, though.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 22:14
32:4)  Jake:
 Easy 'nough:
 Type "unforget #"
 Ta da.
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:04
32:5)  Melissa:
 I want to be a woman!  I want to have babies!  Call me Loretta!-- But 
 Stan, you can't have a baby, you don't have a womb!-- Don't you opress 
 me!
- - - - -
Jan26/94 23:15
32:6)  Margaret:
 "THAT'S NOT MY NOSE...."  
 "Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted,
 God gets quite irate...." or something like that...
- - - - -
Jan27/94 00:07
32:7)  Henry:
 I think it is now time to turn off my computer for the evening.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 05:23
32:8)  Gail:
 "Always look on the bright side of life (Whistling...)  
 sorry, my brain doesn't work well enough at 5:30 a.m. to think of any
 other good ones.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:04
32:9)  Nicholas:
 You got no arms left you bastard!
 'Tis but a flesh wound! :)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 10:35
32:10)  Stephanie:
 Henry, I agree.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:24
32:11)  Melissa:
 S.M. and H. K.--how can you not appreciate such fine humour as this?!  
 Just kidding.  I know how annoying it can be.  I've annoyed many a 
 person when I encounter another Python fan and get going.  If you're not
 into watching the movies a million times, it can get kind of boring 
 listening to *other* people doing dialogue excerpts.:)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 12:44
32:12)  Mitchell:
 Amy, did you figure out what those three quotes have in common?
 If not, I'll post the answer later today.  (That also goes to anyone
 else who was playing along.)
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:27
32:13)  Jessie:
 My favorite of all time is at the beginning of H.G.  
 The classic...
    -Old woman!
    -man!!  
    -sorry.
 which inevitably ends up in the "you could have called me Dennis" 
 argument is probably the funniest dialog that I've ever heard.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:51
32:14)  Larry:
 See my 'William Shattner' analogy a few items ago.  Its relating more
 and more.  Hmmm... how do you spell 'forget'???
- - - - -
Jan27/94 15:52
32:15)  Amy:
 I think you guys are going to SERIOUSLY regret this item! But, here goes:
 I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
 *BOOM*
 NOOOOOOOObody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise
 and fear, fear and surprise. Awg, our two weapons are fear, surprise and a 
 ruthless sufficiency...ooo, our three weapons are fear, surprise a ruthless
 sufficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope..ACK! Among our
 weapons are fear surprise and...I'll come in again
 *said regrettfully* I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...
 *BOOM*
 NOOOOOOOObody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amoungst our weaponry are 
 such diverse elements as fear, surprise, a ruthless sufficiency, an almost
 fanatical devotion to the Pope and...shoot. Cardinal Begal...you will have
 to say it! 
 what?
 You will have to say our chief weapons are:
 *another long part that I don't want to type*
 Ok...our chief weapon is fear...thats it, nothing else!
 Now, read the charges!
 One pound for a full sketch, 20p for a quickie...what'll ya have?
 I love that sketch...I'll have more tomorrow
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:01
32:16)  Larry:
 I you all could just channel all of your energy from Monty Python to
 our National debt......
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:01
32:17)  John Lawler:
 I thought it was "...a ruthless efficiency".  But I must admit I
 prefer the phrase "...a ruthless sufficiency".  Sort of gives one
 pause.  Or paws.  Or something.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 16:08
32:18)  Mitchell:
 Okay, Amy.  I'll let you off the hook.  I'll tell you right now
 that you probably wouldn't have come up with what I'm looking for
 even if you know everything that could possibly exist about Monty
 Python.  Now then, Amy (and everyone else playing along at home), those
 three quotes are the quotes of Monty Python's Flying Circus that made it
 into the 16th edition of Bartlett's Book of Familiar Quotation.  (I
 told you: think books.)  
- - - - -
Jan27/94 19:05
32:19)  Stephanie:
 It is not that I dont LIKE Python, it is just that there is a pyt
 Sorrry. I just dont feel like playing along. Or something like that. Man
 and am I lost.
- - - - -
Jan27/94 22:04
32:20)  Amy:
 Oh fine mitchell! Just make me feel awful 'cause I didn't know the 
 correlation...and then it couldn't have anything to do with my 
 knowledge of Python! ;) Anyway, our next quote for the day:
 Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP HELP! I'm being
 repressed!!!!!!
 hahahahahaahahahahaha....sorry, I still laugh when I think of that quote!
 I'll have more later all you Python haters! ;)
- - - - -
Jan28/94 13:17
32:21)  Tom:
 "life's a piece a shit when you look at it."  That qoute made it to the 
 qoute of the week on my hallmates qoute of the week list last week.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 13:43
32:22)  Larry:
 Depressing hallmate!
- - - - -
Jan28/94 17:26
32:23)  Mitchell:
 Just wanted to liven up your week, Amy.  Hope there's no hard feelings.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 19:07
32:24)  Amy:
 S'ok Mitchell...no hard feelings at all. :) Ok...new quote:
 Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable,
 Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could drink you under the
 table, 
 David Hume could outconsume William Friedrick Hegal
 And Weitchenstein was a beery swine who was just as schloshed as Schlegal.
 There's nothing Nieztche couldn't teacha 'bout the raising of the wrist...
 Socrates himself was permanently pissed!
 John Stuart Mill of his own free will (something I can't remember) Was 
 particularly ill,
 Plato they say, could stick it away, Half a pint of whiskey everyday...
 Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle, Hans was fond of his Dram
 And Renee Decartes was a drunken fart, "I drink therefore I am"!
 Now Socrates himself is particularly missed, A lovely little thinker, but
 a bugger when he's pissed!
 (sorry, I'm not as clear on the words for this one...and I have no idea of 
 how to spell some of these names :) sorry)
- - - - -
Jan29/94 02:12
32:25)  Mitchell:
 I remember hearing that song in MP at the Hollywood Bowl, am I right?
- - - - -
Jan29/94 17:00
32:26)  Larry:
 Anybody seen "History of the World: Part 1".  Same genre, better flick!
- - - - -
Jan29/94 18:40
32:27)  Mitchell:
 Seen it!  Great movie!  I wish they'd make that sequel: SEE A VIKING
 FUNERAL! (Burning boat) SEE HITLER ON ICE! (complete with skates)
 My favorite part consists of two words: WASH THIS!!!
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:30
32:28)  Larry:
 Great line, Mitchell!  How about this...
 "Does you know waht the penalty for assaulting an officer is???...
 uh... you in the back..."
 "Shove a living snake up his ass?"
 "No, but very creative"
  
 or:
  
 "You're nuts!... N-vee-T-S nuts!
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:44
32:29)  Katrina:
 My personal favorite is, "He's got big sharp fangs, and long pointy ears, 
 he's, he's...but look at the bones!"
- - - - -
Jan30/94 12:58
32:30)  Mitchell:
 Occupation?  Gladiator.  Have you killed anyone this week?  No.  Were
 you planning on killing anyone this week?  Yes.  (The unemployment line
 during the Roman Empire, for those of you playing along at home.)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 14:51
32:31)  Amy:
 Yup, that quote was from Hollywood bowl...it is also on monty Python sings. 
 (a tape) Lets see...
 ALBATROSS!!!!
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:27
32:32)  Kevin:
 Do you get wafers with it?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 23:44
32:33)  Amy:
 Hrm....I seem to be running low on ideas...how could thsat possibly be??? How
 about: Bad awful naughty Zeut...you will have to punish her! Punish her? Yes,
 you will have to spank her...spank her hard......and...then you must spank
 me... And me?       oh, and me too? Yes, you will have to spank us all!
 (yeah, well....we all know where it goes from there...and I'm not exactly
 sure how much I can type,...so, I'll just stop there! :)  )
- - - - -
Feb01/94 01:20
32:34)  Melissa:
 "Bettah..."-"Bettah what?"-"Bettah bring a bucket, I think I'm going
 to *throw* up!"--"But sir, they're *wafer* thin."
- - - - -
Feb01/94 15:14
32:35)  Larry:
 Mitchell how 'bout this one from Hist of the World:
 "Fly, birdies fly... <THUD>.  Whee... <THUD>.  Now to invent the 
 catapult...
- - - - -
Feb01/94 16:06
32:36)  Amy:
 very good...
 Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!\
 Hers one...
 I'm not dead yet!
 Sure, you are...here ya go
 No I won't...I"m not dead yet
 You will be in a moment...
 I'm feeling betta
 No you aren't you'll be dead in a moment!
 I think I'll go for a walk
 Can't you do anything? 
 No, we can't take em till their dead...
 Oh help us out!
 I feel happy! I feel happy! I feel hap *BONK!*
 Hey thanks!
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:34
32:37)  Mitchell:
 I remember that, Larry.  But it's not one worth remembering IMHO.  
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:31
32:38)  Zachary:
 Monty Python is a genius in his own right!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 10:33
32:39)  Amy:
 Lets just remember that Monty Python isn't just ONE person...shall we?
- - - - -
Feb02/94 11:48
32:40)  Larry:
 NOT!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:08
32:41)  Chad:
 Just because some watery tart threw a sword at you is no basis for divine
 rule.  Help, I'm being opressed!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:45
32:42)  Jennifer:
 Does anyone else not know any Monty Python quotes?  I could start a John 
 Hughes movies item if anyone (Python illiterate) would like....
- - - - -
Feb02/94 16:53
32:43)  Margaret:
 Any I going to get dumped on for this one...?  Who's John Hughes???
- - - - -
Feb02/94 18:04
32:44)  Nicholas:
 I blewww my nooose is yooour genrhal dirhektion....
 :)
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:16
32:45)  Kiran:
 Jennifer, I don't know any Monty Python quotes either. I tried to watch 
 the movie twice, and fell asleep both times.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 20:13
32:46)  Nicholas:
 Fell asleep???? twice? wow!!!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 21:02
32:47)  Amy:
 Ouch! I can't believe you fell asleep twice! I"m so disappointed! ;) Gosh, I
 know a ton of songs...but, can't think of any that would be appropriate at
 this time....maybe later all!
- - - - -
Feb02/94 23:06
32:48)  Mitchell:
 Here's a song, Amy.  Doesn't apply to me since I'm a vegan.
 SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM, etc.   o/~ o/~  You should see some
 of the Spam riots that break out on America OnLine.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 00:45
32:49)  Lucas:
 "I'm Brian and so is my wife!"
 or
 "It's only a flesh wound!"
- - - - -
Feb03/94 03:02
32:50)  Zachary:
 "Run away, run away!"
- - - - -
Feb03/94 14:49
32:51)  Amy:
 "It's only a flesh wound" - the classic Monty Python quote.
 The Holy Grail is Monty Python's best movie by far.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 15:51
32:52)  Anand:
 What is Monty Python? Two or three of my good friends would always
 come to class quotting like you guys?  Is it a movie?  Musical? 
- - - - -
Feb03/94 16:21
32:53)  Lida:
 It's a movie, and it's the best ever!
- - - - -
Feb03/94 16:55
32:54)  Mitchell:
 Monty Python refers to a TV show on BBC called "Monty Python's
 Flying Circus."  It was broadcast from 1969-1974 (I think).  There
 have been many movies made by the sextet that comprised Monty Python--
 John Cleese, Michael Palin, Eric Idle, Terry Gilliam, Graham Chapman,
 and Terry Jones.  (Chapman died in 1989, I think.  Correct me if I'm
 wrong.)
- - - - -
Feb03/94 18:35
32:55)  Henry:
 I remeber "It's only a flesh wound" from National Lampoon's 
 European Vacation.  Very funny.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 18:53
32:56)  Jennifer:
 News flash for Margaret -- John Hughes is the greatest director of the e
 eighties.  He made the brat pack what it was.  He directed the greatest
 movie of all times (Besides "Grease"), "The Breakfast Club".  I love those
 cheesy Molly Ringwald movies!
- - - - -
Feb03/94 20:42
32:57)  Jill:
 i agree with jennifer-the breakfast club is my favorite movie.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 21:21
32:58)  John Lawler:
 Nice summary, Mitch.  I might add that one can see Monty Python at 9:30
 AM on Comedy Central (cable 52).  They're the Beatles of modern comedy.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 11:25
32:59)  Amy:
 You mean they are showing Flying Circus again!!!???? ACK! I"ve missed it!
 Ok...Mitchell: I've seen terrible spam wars on the muds I play on...so, I
 know exactly what you mean. :) Qoute for the day...
 What happens now?
 Well...when night time sets in...Lancelot, Galahad and I will jump out of the
 Rabbit and take the castle. Taking them completely by surprise!
 Who will jump out?
 Um...Lancelot, Galahad and I..........Well, we could build this large 'pposum
 ...?
- - - - -
Feb04/94 12:52
32:60)  Chad:
 Remember, thou shalt count 1, 2, and then 3.  Thou shalt not count to 4 or
 5 for the holy is 3.  Oh--I love the holy hand grenade.
 .
- - - - -
Feb04/94 13:27
32:61)  Tom:
 My favotite movie was "Opportunity Knocks" and "Carlito's Way"
- - - - -
Feb04/94 14:46
32:62)  Lida:
 Amy, I think you mean "We could build this large wooden badger"
 Is that right? If not, you can just throw me into the gorge
 of eternal peril.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 17:50
32:63)  Monica:
 I like many in this class know nothing about Monty Python so I fall into 
 the group that loves "cheesy Molly Ringwold movies"
- - - - -
Feb04/94 19:51
32:64)  Jin Ho:
 As much as I hate to admit it, I really enjoy "message" movies.  The Piano
 takes them all!  That was the best piece of film I've ever seen,(be it in my
 eighteen short years of life).
- - - - -
Feb04/94 20:37
32:65)  Dawn:
 Another good one was Heavan and Earth, although I found it rather disturbing
 that all of these things could happen to one poor girl -- and the story is 
 real.  On the topic on current movies, I really want to see Schindler's List
 but I'm almoste afraid to.
 Back to Monty Python . . .
- - - - -
Feb04/94 23:32
32:66)  Stephanie:
 DAWN, I have the book. It is REALLY good
- - - - -
Feb05/94 15:34
32:67)  John P:
 has anybody seen 'the power of one?'  now there was a way cool movie.  it
 went beyond what i could endure, but there was so much emotional outfall
 that i couldn't help but be moved.  
- - - - -
Feb05/94 15:50
32:68)  Nicholas:
 I haven't seen it but my roomate has the soundtrack. It's awes!!! :)
- - - - -
Feb05/94 17:15
32:69)  Amy:
 How about the Space Oddessy movies? Those are some really intriguing ideas!
 Check 'em out. :) 
 Lida, you are correct, my bad. :)
- - - - -
Feb05/94 18:39
32:70)  Jennifer:
 I loved the Piano too.  And everyone MUST see Schindler's List -- it was 
 amazing.  After everything I've seen and heard about the Holocaust, it was
 still really hard to watch.  Some of my favorite movies are foreign, though.
 Did anyone see "Au Revoir Les Infants" or "Olivier Olivier"?  Both were
 great, even with the subtitles.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 15:55
32:71)  Stephanie:
 I saw "Au REvoir Las Infants", but I was ironing at the time, so
 it was a bit hard to follow. I liked it much more the second time.
 We have a foreign film theater at home, and they always show
 cool foreign films
- - - - -
Feb06/94 20:38
32:72)  Mitchell:
 I ought to go see Schindler's List for obvious reasons, considering my
 heritage.  (I would not be surprised in the slightest if I were to see
 a "szczepanczyk" somewhere if I were to stay and watch all of the 
 movie's credits).  Anyway, does anyone know if it'll be played in 
 State street or the Michigan theater?  The idea of going all the way to
 Showcase doesn't appeal to me.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 22:20
32:73)  Jill:
 i really liked Carlito's Way also.  I great movie is Pump up the Volume-has 
 anyone seen it? School Ties is also a great flick!
- - - - -
Feb06/94 22:34
32:74)  Stephanie:
 Pump-up the Volume: a definite good movie. Though slightly demented, but
 I think that is why it appealed to me
 School Ties: My friend called it a drool-flick, meaning that it is
 one of those movies that we all go to ust to see the guys on stage.
 I thought it had a more important message, though
 What about Scent of A Womna
 That's woman
- - - - -
Feb06/94 22:41
32:75)  Dale:
 Drool Film Huh.  I don't think that I'd want to watch it for that.  Was
 it a good movie?  Did it have a good plot?
- - - - -
Feb06/94 23:56
32:76)  Vassoula:
 Carlito's Way was incredible and pump up the volume was good too.
 I think you should watch Tampopo, if you want to see a strange show.
 I had to watch it for a film class.  I liked it.  Granted it was
 in Chinese, but it had subtitles.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 00:07
32:77)  Jessie:
 I really like intense movies.  Not necessarily shoot-'em-up
 movies, but INTENSE movies!  Anyone see Resevoir Dogs?
- - - - -
Feb07/94 02:00
32:78)  Kevin:
 Yes.  
- - - - -
Feb07/94 07:24
32:79)  John Lawler:
 Tampopo was definitely *Japanese*, not Chinese.  In fact, it makes the
 differences between the cultures pretty explicit.  One of my favorite
 movies, and excruciatingly funny.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 10:27
32:80)  Amy:
 Ok...I really liked Pump up the Volume...it reminded me a great deal of H
 Heathers though...wonder why? :) Never saw School ties...but, its at the topp
 of my list. How about The Fugitive? Now, there's a GREAT flic!!!! But,
 nothing takes the place of the Star Wars Trilogy and Jurassic Park in my
 book! :)
- - - - -
Feb07/94 12:44
32:81)  Mitchell:
 Pump up the Volume--very entertaining movie.  wish there were more like it
- - - - -
Feb07/94 13:21
32:82)  Larry:
 Geez, Stephanie, is that all you women think about when going to
 a movie?  ;-)  I just like it when women say the same thing that they 
 (not you personally) rip on men for.  It's kind of refreshing.  "School
 Ties" was a great movie though, although I never caught myself drooling.
 I still like the stupid slaptick comedies like Caddyshack and The Naked
 Gun.  Can't beat 'em!
- - - - -
Feb07/94 14:49
32:83)  Stephanie:
 No, LaRry, that is not all we think about, in fact, we hardly EVER think
 about that, nd that is why I found the classification "a DROOL movie"
 so funny. I never drooled, but there may have been a lot of younger
 folks who did. But glad I could say something refreshing. Naked gun
 is good, but it seems that all those movies are always about ten minutes
 too long, and they get ol. And yes, School Ties had a good plot
- - - - -
Feb07/94 15:02
32:84)  Jill:
 first of all-if you want to see a drool flick see Untamed heart with
 Christian Slater. I do not think that Pump up the Volume is like Heather's
 although neither are really intellectually stimulating. I love Heathers. I
 did not really care for Jurassic park i thought it was very unrealistic.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 15:52
32:85)  Dawn:
 Definitely 2 thumbs up for School Ties!!!
 I've seen it 4 times & I would watch it again
- - - - -
Feb07/94 15:55
32:86)  Amy:
 Speaking of cheesy Molly Ringwald movies, what about Sixteen Candles?  Here
 we have Anthony Michael Hall as a pre-pubescent freshman and Michael
 Schoeffli(I'm not sure how to spell it) as the ultimate man.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 16:09
32:87)  Margaret:
 WEll, according to a paper I was forced to write in high school, Heathers
 was chock full of symbolic meaning...don't ask me to explain, I've blocked
 it out...
- - - - -
Feb07/94 16:19
32:88)  Sean:
 What's the deep symbolic meaning behind that game of "strip croquet" that
 Christian Slater and Winona Rider play?  Man, I'm going to have to watch
 that movie again with an open mind and figure all of this stuff out.
 
 
- - - - -
Feb07/94 17:02
32:89)  Kiran:
 I didn't really like Heathers all that much, but I did like Untamed Heart
 (even though it was a bit sappy).  Scent of a Woman, School ties, and 
 especially the Fugitive are definitely three of the better movies I've seen.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:13
32:90)  Anand:
 Dave, was this summer's hit movie in my opinion.  I loved the movie.  
 Anther funny movie, is grumpy old men.  Jack lemon has outdone
 himself in that movie.  Everyone should form groups of five-six
 and go watch the movie.  I laughed almost every minute of that movie.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:35
32:91)  Dale:
 If anyone wants to see a really intense movie that was a winner or of
 loads of awards, go see Farewell my Concubine.  It's in Chinese with
 English subtitles.  It's almost three hours long, but boy is it ever
 good.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:18
32:92)  Kevin:
 A shame that it's already left the State Theater, then.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:22
32:93)  Mitchell:
 Speaking of movies, the Academy Award nominations for 1993 will be
 announced Wednesday (around 8:40 AM; 1993 is not a typo).  And
 speaking of other miscellaneous happenings, do look in February 8th's
 Michigan Daily for my name.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:37
32:94)  Kory:
 Caddyshack, Naked Gun, Major League.  The list goes on and on when
 it comes to all-time great comedies.  Oh yeah, don't forget Animal
 House either.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:48
32:95)  Zachary:
 Right on Kory!
- - - - -
Feb08/94 14:46
32:96)  Larry:
 I'm with almost all of you on this item!  Schhol Ties, Heathers, Untamed
 Heart, Sixteen Candles (Yes... I'll admit it) are all good.  Major League
 doesn't make the list though.  I really thought it wasn't THAT great.  Just
 saw The Naked Gun on HBO (?) for the 63rd (roughly) time last week.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 18:48
32:97)  Mitchell:
 *****BOOM!******
 Nooooooooo-body expects the Spanish Inquisition.  Our greatest weapon
 is surprise!  Surprise and fear!
 (And I thought this was the Monty Python item.)
- - - - -
Feb08/94 19:23
32:98)  Jennifer:
 Personally, I thought that School Ties was a little over-rated.  A better
 movie with the same theme was "Au Revoir Les Enfants".  As for cheesy Molly
 R. movies, 16 Candles and The Breakfast Club are the best.  Another funny,
 classic cheesy movie is Better Off Dead with John Cusak and Curtis Armstrong.
  In my opinion, John is just as good as Christian (especially in Say
 Anything)
- - - - -
Feb08/94 20:21
32:99)  Monica:
 I love almost all movies so I'll try to comment on just the ones listed so
 far. School ties-fair. The piano-exellent! The rest I like mostly too except
 for all the stupid commedy ones I really perfer dramma and action.  Amoung my
 favorites are St. Elmo's Fire, A Few Good Men, and beauty and the Beast and
 of course that ties with Aladin.  If you want a good artsy flick go to Ann
 Arbor Theaters 1and2 and see 6 Degrees of Seperation-very good.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 20:24
32:100)  Vassoula:
 Sorry about that that was my little slip.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 22:10
32:101)  Amy:
 "I want my two dollars!" - does anyone know where this famous line came from?
  Jennifer?
- - - - -
Feb08/94 22:33
32:102)  Henry:
 My favorite movie of all time is Back to the Future.
 It features my favorite song of all time- The Power of Love.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:14
32:103)  Kevin:
 "Two dollars...cash!"
- - - - -
Feb09/94 01:15
32:104)  Jin Ho:
 Gee, I'm sorry you're mom blew up...\
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:35
32:105)  Amy:
 Ok...I think Mitchell is right...we should get back to the real reason for
 this item! :) Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, no-what-I-mean? SAY NO MORE! 
 Will you shut that bloody bazoochy up!?
 Are you proposing to slaughter our tenants?
 I like Chinese...I like chinese...
- - - - -
Feb09/94 14:58
32:106)  Jennifer:
 Yay!  Better Off Dead lines!  "French Fries, French Dressing..."  Also, I am
 really sorry Henry, but I can't believe that The Power of Love is your 
 favorite song.  My personal favorite soundtrack would have to be Grease or
 The Lost Boys (Corey Haim before the Teen Beat cheesiness).
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:16
32:107)  Jill:
 pump up the volume has a great soundtrack
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:34
32:108)  Henry:
 My second favorite movie of all time is Aliens (1986).
 It is flat out the best action movie ever produced.
 It also stars some of the best action stars of all time-
 including two of my favorites-Michael Biehn and Bill Paxton.
 And of course-Sigourney Weaver.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 19:04
32:109)  Monica:
 I agree with Jennifer that Grease has a great soundtrack.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 00:11
32:110)  Kevin:
 a bit slick, perhaps....
- - - - -
Feb10/94 15:04
32:111)  Joe:
 Two of the best ever:  Apocalypse Now for sheer intensity (kind of like the
 Black Sabbath of Vietnam movies) and A Clockwork Orange (viddy well, little
 brother, viddy well).  Malcolm McDowell was brilliant in this flick.  Also,
 check out One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and even if you don't like
 westerns, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (Clint Eastwood).
- - - - -
Feb10/94 21:02
32:112)  Chad:
 Sorry, guys--the absoluate best movie of all times is "When Harry Met Sally,"
 and don't forget the scene that REALLY made Meg Ryan famous!
- - - - -
Feb11/94 13:49
32:113)  Henry:
 Anyone who has a list of their 10 (only 10!) favorite movies of all time 
 can feel free to transmit them to me since discussing them here is strictly
 prohibited.  And please make sure they are in order (1 to 10).
- - - - -
Feb11/94 14:21
32:114)  Stephanie:
 when at the which conference do you want to join promt, type films
- - - - -
Feb12/94 14:03
32:115)  Kevin:
 I know what you mean, Stephanie, but your response is a little unclear.
- - - - -
Feb12/94 14:06
32:116)  Henry:
 After just joining the films conference, Stephanie, I would warn any
 ling-210 student before joining that conference.  It was the biggest waste
 of 15 minutes I have had in over a year!!  If this is a movie catagory
 still, then my last response still holds.  Thank you.
- - - - -
Feb12/94 19:03
32:117)  Stephanie:
 I have to disagree, but this is not the time or place, so I will
 say no more. What was this item anyway?
- - - - -
Feb12/94 23:43
32:118)  Kevin:
 "Albatross!"
- - - - -
Feb13/94 23:21
32:119)  Melissa:
 "Uh--I think you mean *tentacles*, Monique.  There's a big difference."
- - - - -
Feb17/94 15:54
32:120)  Lucas:
 Joe has great taste in movies.  I'm a film major, so I have seen most
 of the films mentioned.  However, my favorite film is no cool art type
 of movie...The Road Warrior is far and away the best movie I have ever seen,
 followed closely by Star Wars 1 and 2 and Blade Runner.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 16:17
32:121)  Henry:
 Raiders of the Lost Ark and Aliens are both better than The Road Warrior.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 17:18
32:122)  John Lawler:
 They're all different, I think, and not all to the same taste, for sure.
 Raiders is an homage to the 30's adventure film, only done much, much
 better.  Aliens is a creative cross between SF and Horror (those genres
 are already mixed in most people's minds, and Aliens has confounded the
 distinction even more, for which I do not thank the producers).  And
 Road Warrior is a new genre, but one with pretty obvious roots.
 
 What *I'd* like to know (as an image consumer) is whether I'll *ever*
 get to see anybody make a movie out of _Ringworld_.  Frankly, I doubt it.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 22:05
32:123)  Dawn:
 What do you do as a film major???
 I was just wondering because that sounds very interesting.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 13:44
32:124)  Amy:
 Yeah, but, Highlander has to be one of the best wierd movies ever...;) And,
 the best movie music is definately anyhting by John
 Williams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So, there's my opinion.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:32
32:125)  Stephanie:
 What do you do as a film major???
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:27
32:126)  Kevin:
 It probably depends on whether he's looking into production or analysis.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:53
32:127)  Jennifer:
 I just saw an amazing movie over break.  Has anyone else seen "Six Degrees of
 Separation"?  It would probably be calssified as an s artsy movie because I
 saw it at an art movie theatre.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 00:14
32:128)  John Lawler:
 I saw it too.  Very strange movie, but *great* acting.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 03:19
32:129)  Geoffrey:
 Sir Robin: "You stupid bastard, you 'ad me so scared I soiled my armor"      
   Frenchie: "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries"
- - - - -
Mar01/94 16:44
32:130)  Monica:
 I also saw "Six Degrees of Separation" and I also mentioned it on confer
 before I am glad you both agree that it's a good (yet strange) movie.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 18:53
32:131)  Jennifer:
 I didn't think it was that strange, just very thought-provoking.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:09
32:132)  Lucas:
 Film majors watch a ton of films, mostly old or strange ones that
 you would otherwise not see.  We study theory (i.e. Eisensteins montage 
 theory).  Then, we study filmmaking techniques to make our own short ones.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 15:32
32:133)  Rob:
 Eisenstein's Montage Theory.  Now there's something they don't teach you in
 science class.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 23:14
32:134)  Dawn:
 what is it
- - - - -
Mar06/94 17:36
32:135)  Lucas:
 Eisenstein believed in rapid editing, that the mere juxtaposition of images
 is the most important and efficient way to make a poing, rather than use
 camera movement, acting, mise-en-scene, etc.)  MTV would love him.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 18:16
32:136)  Kevin:
 Actually, Lucas, Eisenstein's use of mise-en-scene was very strong, and in
 many cases overshadows the editing.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 22:08
32:137)  Jin Ho:
 If you ask me, yeah Einstein was a genius, but what do we have to thank him
 for, for giving us a toy with which we can blast each other to death until
 the entire planet is glowing green?  If you ask me, that's not such a
 remarkable accomplishment
- - - - -
Mar08/94 00:01
32:138)  John Lawler:
 Um, that's EiSENstein they're talking about, Jin Ho; a film director.
 Einstein was, of course, a violinist :-)
- - - - -
Mar08/94 09:05
32:139)  Stephanie:
 yeah!
- - - - -
Mar08/94 17:22
32:140)  Kevin:
 Unless you're talking about Frank Einstein, who was a Madman.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:19
32:141)  Amy:
 I just saw two REALLY twisted flix this weekend: Clockwork Orange and The
 Wall. Anybody have any opinions on either? I loved 'em!
- - - - -
Mar09/94 14:15
32:142)  Joe:
 Opinions!  I don't even know where to begin...  Okay, here goes:  A Clockwork
 O Orange is possibly the best movie ever made.  I can watch it again and
 again and never get tired of it.  You should now read the book, as the ending
 to it is very different than the ending of the movie.  The movie, with all of
 its manifestations of the '70s, is truly timeless.  What a classic!  The Wall
 is good, too.  How 'bout those marching hammers?  And the little sequence
 with the flowers? Hmmm..
- - - - -
Mar09/94 21:06
32:143)  Jennifer:
 The Wall definitely scared me the first time I saw it (I was in eighth grade)
 but now I think it is a great movie.  Very twisted.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 15:05
32:144)  Amy:
 Yeah, I've read parts of the book before, Joe. Yet another book to add to my
 list of books to complete this summer! :) I loved all the parts having to
 do with the army stuff in The Wall....very interesting how 1984 took some of
 its odeas from those scenes as well. eh?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 15:24
32:145)  Joe:
 Anybody ever see "Eraserhead?"  If you have, and you liked it, you'll
 probably enjoy "Tetsuo-The Iron Man."  I watched it last night.  It was
 horrible. Don't expect to understand it.  Just watch in revulsion as a man
 turns into a grotesque machine, seemingly due to no reason at all.  As an
 added bonus, this flick is totally incoherent.  Have fun with it!
- - - - -
Mar15/94 15:25
32:146)  Monica:
 I don't mean to offend anyone but I did not like "the Wall", maybe I was just
 too young when I saw it. You also kinda have to be in a certain kinda mood
 too see it.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 15:46
32:147)  Joe:
 Yes.  When watching someone who is going insane, it helps to actually be
 going insane yourself.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 17:29
32:148)  Amy:
 Ok...time to return us to the original intent of this item.,....in other 
 words: AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! 
 ALBATROSS!
 I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok...I sleep all night and I work all day...
 I'd like to buy an argument please...
 The nights who say NIE! require aaaaaaaaa.....SHRUBBERY! 
 Give me more peril....plee...I can handle the peril!
 Are you proposing to slaughter our tennants? -Yes...won't that fit in your 
 plans?
            Thanks...now lets hear those quotes!!!! :)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 11:08
32:149)  Mitchell:
 Amy, I thought it was spelled "nee."  This may seem picky, but are you
 sure you're right?
- - - - -
Mar16/94 16:36
32:150)  Amy:
 Well...you see...I had a copy of the script sent to e.\ er, me that
 is....and in it it...it said that it was Nie....but, I have also seen
 i it as Nicht...so, pick one.
 What do you mean...and African or European swallow?
- - - - -
Mar16/94 18:32
32:151)  Jin Ho:
 Yeah...Africans and Eurpeans swallow, why wouldn't they, they eat don't they?
 So what's your point? ;)
- - - - -
Apr11/94 05:39
32:152)  Geoffrey:
 The castle aaaargh.  He would'nt bother writing 'aaaargh' if he was dying!
- - - - -
Apr17/94 10:56
32:153)  Amy:
 oooooo.....no its more at the back of the throat...you mean arrrrrgghh? Yes,
 thats it....no, ooooooo as in surprise and fear. :)
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:31
32:154)  Kevin:
 Suddenly, the animator suffered a fatal heart attack.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:40
32:155)  Geoffrey:
 and there was much rejoicing, yaaaaaay.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 16:01
32:156)  Kevin:
  
  "When danger reared its ugly head,
   he bravely turned his tail and fled.
   Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin."
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:27
32:157)  Geoffrey:
 Winter came, and they were forced to eat Robin's minstrels.
 And there was much rejoicing, yaaaaay.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:42
32:158)  Kevin:
  
  "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?"
  "What do you mean?  African or European swallow?"
  
  "I don't know that."  WAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!
  
  "How do you know so much about swallows?"
- - - - -
Apr18/94 10:56
32:159)  Amy:
 hahahahahahahaha Ok...and now for something completely different!
 I like chinese....I like chinese....they only come up to your knees...but,
 they're cute anf they're cuddly and they're ready to please. 


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 33    Jan27/94 19:01     4 lines    15 responses
John Lawler                        
[fnEk slaeb]

   Today we started phonetics.  It's a *big* subject, and I know I
 couldn't have covered everything in as much detail as you might like.
 This is the place to ask questions and come up with new correlations
 about phonetics.

Related items:
   35

   15 responses
- - - - -
Jan27/94 20:23
33:1)  Jill:
 i do not quite understand the difference between phonemes and allomphones
 I think the termonology is confusing
- - - - -
Jan27/94 22:00
33:2)  Mitchell:
 Here are the definitions of phoneme and allophone as found in the
 Random House Word Menu.  Hope they help.  (BTW, if the following
 definitions are wrong, someone please correct me.)  Now then:
 PHONEME: smallest unit of sound in a language that can distinguish
 one word from another
 ALLOPHONE: one of the alternate phonetic forms of a phoneme, 
 depending on its environment
- - - - -
Jan27/94 23:51
33:3)  John Lawler:
 That's right on.  The part about "distinguish one word from another"
 refers to the minimal pair concept -- those are two words that are
 distinguished from one another by differing in that one sound.
 
 As you'll see on your English allophone homework, you can say
 a voiceless stop at the end of a word either aspirated or not
 aspirated; and it *doesn't* distinguish two words -- it's just
 two different ways to say the same word.  So that's *not* a
 phonemic distinction.
 
 Phones (i.e, sounds) of any sort are distinguishable from one
 another, but only phonemes signal another distinction by their
 difference.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 02:51
33:4)  Anand:
 I'm not quite sure if I understood you.  Are you saying that you can
 only distinguish one word from another by a minimal pair concept?  I
 thought the completementary distribution also helps you distinguish
 phonemes?? In one sense, why did we do a complementary distribuition
 in the homework assignment???
- - - - -
Jan28/94 07:14
33:5)  John Lawler:
 I'm not speaking of your analytic procedures, I'm speaking of how phonemes
 work.  That was the original question.  And I didn't say you can only
 distinguish one word from another by a minimal pair.
 
 OK, to avoid confusion: I ask you all to ponder the question of how any
 speaker of any language tells one word from another.  If they hear somebody
 say [roth] and somebody else say [rot] and don't think they're different (may
 not even notice the difference); while if they hear somebody say [rod] they
 recognize instantly that it's a different word from the others (they're
 spelled 'rote' and 'road' in English), what are we intitled to conclude about
 which sounds they think are significantly different?
 
 The point is that the three differences between [d] and [t], [t] and [th],
 [d] and [th], are all about equal objective distance.  The objective question
 is: which of these differences do native speakers use, and which ones do they
 ignore?  You can tell by figuring out whether they ever contrast.
 
 If they do contrast, you have a distinction.  If they *don't* contrast (and
 here's where your question comes in, Calvin), then you have a *suspicion* of
 allophony, but you need to prove it.  There's lots of reasons why they might
 not contrast.  To show that two sounds that don't contrast are allophones of
 the same phoneme, you need to be able to show that they're either in free
 variation (as with [roth] and [rot], both acceptable pronunciations of
- - - - -
Jan28/94 07:14
33:6)  John Lawler:
 "rote"), or in complementary distribution (as with German [x] and [c,]).
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:40
33:7)  Dale:
 Prof. Lawler:  Do you want us to be able to pronounce the lateral
 obstruents?  What's the deal with retroflex?  I also have a favor to
 ask of someone.  I missed Thurs. lecture due to an allergy attack in
 which I thoughtlessy took Seldane which almost immediately put me
 flat on my back at home.  I was wondering if I could get together with
 someone this weekend to go over the materials and related items.  If you
 could either leave me a 'message' on confer or give me a call at 741-8577
 I would truly appreciate it.  Thanks.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 15:25
33:8)  John Lawler:
 God, no.  That takes more practice than you'll be able to do.
 This looks like a good place to publish another question from
 Calvin.  He asked what to review for the quiz on Thursday.  Here's what
 I told him:
 
 Study the symbols on the phonetics chart.
 Learn to spell the technical terms (alveolar, velar, etc.)
 Try to figure out technical descriptions of individual
 sounds. ([b] = voiced bilabial stop, etc.)
 
 Concentrate on the more common variety of sounds, ignore the
 funny stuff on the chart (for now).
- - - - -
Jan28/94 16:19
33:9)  Anand:
 Thanks John for clarifying my misunderstandings.  I guess I was making a big
 th thing out of nothing.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:18
33:10)  Vassoula:
 I think it would be graet(great ) if somehow we
 a could get a list of all teh vocabulary that we
 need to know up to this point.  ANYONE?????
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:30
33:11)  John Lawler:
 Good idea, Vassoula.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 17:33
33:12)  John Lawler:
 See Item 35.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:14
33:13)  Jill:
 thanks for explaining all the terms, glad i am not the only one slightly
 confused
- - - - -
Feb01/94 23:33
33:14)  Zachary:
 This helps a lot. Thanks Prof. Lawler.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 19:36
33:15)  Jin Ho:
 What was this item all about?


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 34    Jan27/94 19:02     2 lines    52 responses
John Lawler                        
Some English Allophonic Alternations

  This is the item to discuss the "English Allophonic Alternations"
 problem due on Tuesday.

   52 responses
- - - - -
Jan28/94 13:11
34:1)  Larry:
 I think you should explain the first set on the assignment to the 
 rest of the people in the class who didn't have you for discussion this
 morning.  It cleared up a lot of confusion for me and I think it will
 help others figure out what you're expecting of us.
- - - - -
Jan28/94 14:48
34:2)  Stephanie:
 please do
- - - - -
Jan28/94 15:26
34:3)  John Lawler:
 I agree.  Why doesn't somebody from that section post their notes
 and maybe some discussion of them?
- - - - -
Jan28/94 16:22
34:4)  Anand:
 Leonara, in my section, also did a great job in answering my questions
 regardin the English homework.  Most importantly, she shouyld us how to make
 lists of the immediate surrounding environments for phonetic problems.  It
 really helped us on the Spanish problem set.  She made the topic seem so
 easy, and I guess I'll be doing what she listed today.  If anybody want's my
 notes, I'll be in lecture on Tuesday.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 14:32
34:5)  Mitchell:
 Question: I notice there are a handful of exceptions regarding the t
 and p sounds in part 1.  (besides the slip, rock, sat exceptions)  In
 particular, I have found exceptions with September and walking.  Should
 I just note that there is an exception to the rule?  Or is there a rule
 I haven't found yet that accounts for all the words?
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:02
34:6)  John Lawler:
 Well, what's the rule?  Can you amend it to include these words?
 The rule was not carved in stone, you know.  You make it up yourself.
 You can modify it, too.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 16:35
34:7)  Stephanie:
 I have done set one, and I think I may have figured something out, but
 I am not sure, since I dont really understand what I am doing here, 
 but I am giving this a shot.
 Starting with /p/ and /ph/ (aspirated):
   it seems that /p/ comes either at the end of a word or after or before
   a consonant sound, whereas /ph/ starts a word and is always surrounded
   by vowel sounds.( Btw: I pronounce September with an aspirated p,
  and it is not that way in the data. Does anyone else?
  
 /t/ and /th/
   /t/ is always preceded by a consonant or followed by one, while/th/
 can start a word and is always surrounded by vowel sounds. (btw, I
 do not aspirate the t on September, and I am beginning to wonder if this
 is a typo.
  
 /k/ and /kh/
   /k/ can be preceded by /s/ end a word, or by followed by /s/, while
 /kh/ starts words.
  
 Another interesting observation I have listened to people from both
 coasts say slip, sat, and rock, and while the west coast people aspirate,
 those from the east coast do not, making me believe that something
 regional may be going on. Of cousrse, I would need to study more 
 to get meaninful conclusions, but hey, it was worth a shot. Let me
 know if I am right on this stuff.
- - - - -
Jan29/94 18:49
34:8)  Mitchell:
 I think you've got the gist of it, Stephanie.  My original inquiry
 anyway, has to do with part 1.  I've noticed that aspirated consonants
 are not adjacent to any other consonants, with one exception: September.
 Likewise, non-aspirated consonants are next to at least one consonant.
 With one prominent exception: at the end of a word.  There is also, 
 however, less prominent exception: walking.  Now, am I missing a rule
 that covers both less prominent exceptions, or are these just
 exceptions that don't force new rules to be made, leaving the rules
 that were stated above, alone?
- - - - -
Jan29/94 22:14
34:9)  Jake:
 Here's what I got:
  
 1: aspirates occur as the first or last sound in a syllable.
  unaspirants elshwere
  
 2: r. after an asprated consantant
  r elswhere
  
 3: /m.//n./ when preceeded by as stressed syllable
  /m//n/ elswhere
  
 4: /shwa-y,w/ before a voicless consanant
  /ay//aw/ elshwere.
  
 If that doesn't help, I don't know what will :-)
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:34
34:10)  Larry:
 The first one (as given by Prof Lawler in discussion) is as
 follows:
    aspiration occurs when preceding the stressed vowel, except after 's'.
    also, the ones that can be both aspirated ort not are due to "free
    variation".
  
 I'm having problems on #3, but I'll take Jake's advice and look at it
 again.  #2 and #4 are as Jake said.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 00:35
34:11)  Nicholas:
 Jake I'm not sure about your rule number 1. I think the rule more like:
 aspirated for beginning of syllable and unaspirated elswhere. :)
 Comments? By the way Mitchell I think I agree with your two exceptions.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 02:32
34:12)  Jake:
 OK.
 Mod to rule one: apirants may appear as the last unpreceeded consanant.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 11:07
34:13)  Stephanie:
 can someone explain "free variation" to me?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 11:13
34:14)  John Lawler:
 Look at the stressed vowels.  Aspiration is a syllable characteristic. When:
 
     a) the voiceless stop is the actual beginning of a syllable, and
     b) the syllable is stressed (accent over the vowel),
 
 the vl stop will be aspirated (and will aspirate following resonants - cf
 part 2, which has the *same* conditioning environment as part 1).
- - - - -
Jan30/94 11:17
34:15)  John Lawler:
 "Free variation" means that, while there's a difference in pronunciation
 between two sounds, and words exist that use one or the other and
 otherwise don't differ, so you might think they'd be good candidates
 for minimal pairs,
 
 *nevertheless*,
 
 since the difference in sound does *NOT* signal a difference in lexical
 meaning, they are *NOT* a minimal pair.  The "free" part means that
 there is no known conditioning factor, and people just form individual
 habits (or, as you suggest above, SAM, there may be some areal
 phenomenon involved).
- - - - -
Jan30/94 16:34
34:16)   Lisa:
 I was wondering, my friend Khoi and I were talking (he's trying to teach
 me vietnamese) and, is there any correlation because the musical 
 prodigies from asian countries and the fact that many asian languages
 are tonal ... that from a very young age these kids have to distinguish
 between different tones.  I used to work with Hmong kids in the projects
 in Lansing, and they
 would try to teach me some Hmong, but it was so difficult.  I got a
 book on it and there are 9 different tones involved, each of which
 can make a syllable mean something completely different.  I gave up
 on the language because it isn't taught anywhere around here and one
 syllable can mean something like the lion sits on the rock eating a
 snake which really translates to "I am scared" or something like that.
 Anyhow, does anyone have any answers for the original question.  
- - - - -
Jan30/94 18:03
34:17)  Calvin:
 What's the (N) and the (V) in the English handout? Also, certain letters have
 a small circle underneath; does that imply aspiration?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 18:32
34:18)  Calvin:
 Is [s] an aspirated or unaspirated fricative?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 18:44
34:19)  Calvin:
 Oh, another question, this one concerns the Consonant/vowel chart handout. 
 Why is it that the bracketed y under the alveolar/affricaive category the
 same as the bracketed y under the palatal/semivowel category?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 19:51
34:20)  Mitchell:
 [s] is unaspirated.  (At least I think it's unaspirated.  Can we
 have a ruling on this?)  BTW, I have a question: where does [r] go on
 the consonant chart--I don't see it anywhere on the chart.  What would
 I call it?  My guess is a voiced, something-or-other.
- - - - -
Jan30/94 21:22
34:21)  Calvin:
 Prof or TA (especially), when i state the conditioning environments for the
 allophones can I do it in a do-or-die manner?  That is, cna it read like
 this:  "The conditioning environments for allphone A is...blah blah blah
 blah; otherwise, use allphone B instead".
- - - - -
Jan30/94 21:28
34:22)  Kiran:
 Calvin, the (N) and the (V) refer to noun and verb, respectively(I think).
 Also, Prof. Lawler told us in discussion that the dot underneath the n and
 m indicates that it is syllabic.  In other words, the n with the dot under 
 it is a separate syllable.  If you were asking about the bigger dot
 found under r, l, w, and y, I'm not sure what it represents. Does anyone 
 else know?
- - - - -
Jan30/94 23:38
34:23)  John Lawler:
 A circle under an ordinarily voiced segment (like an [r] or a vowel)
 indicates that it's voiceless.  A short vertical line under a resonant
 (nasals, [l], [r]) indicates that it's *syllabic*; i.e, it functions
 as a syllable nucleus, just like a vowel.  If you pronounce the words,
 you'll hear it.
 
 The (N) and (V) *do* mean "noun" and "verb", respectively.  /s/ is
 neither aspirated nor unaspirated; aspiration is ordinarily restricted
 to stops, not fricatives.  They already make a hissing sound, and a
 little extra breath is hard to detect and not a great signal to
 depend on.
 
 As for [y]: it's very common in the U.S. (and I use it that way) to
 use [y] as a symbol for a high front (therefore palatal) semivowel.
 The IPA symbol for this is [j], as in its German pronunciation.  Either
 of these will work, but you have to decide on one convention and stick
 to it.  The IPA uses [y] to indicate a high front *rounded* vowel, the
 "U-umlaut" of German.  Finnish and the Scandinavian languages use it
 this way.
 
 And "r".  Well, the R phoneme varies so much from language to language
 that it rarely has a single allophone and quite often represents a
 lot of different phonetic sounds.  In German it's the uvular trill before
 vowels, and schwa after vowels; in French it's a voiced or voiceless
 velar fricative; in Spanish there are two R's - the "single" (apical
 tap) and the "double" (apical trill).  And so on.  In American English
- - - - -
Jan30/94 23:38
34:24)  John Lawler:
 it's a retroflexed mid central rounded vowel when it's a syllable nucleus,
 and a homorganic semivowel when it's not.  In many dialects of English
 it's an apical tap before vowels and a schwa after vowels.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 14:03
34:25)  Calvin:
 I'm still confused as to why [j] is located in both the alveolar-affricative
 and palatal-semivowel categories under the consonant chart of the handout. 
 Any ideas?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 14:16
34:26)  Leonora Sanchez:
 That's just because j is an alternate symbol for both of those sounds.  
 I don't think you need to worry about memorizing the symbols in the brackets.
 If you know the he regular IPA (international phonetic alphabet) symbols
 (those not in brackets), then taht's good enough.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 14:19
34:27)  Calvin:
 When I derive rules for the samples in Set#1, may I also use samples from
 other sets, because [p/pt] [t/th] [k/kh] do appear in them (other sets, that
 is)?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:20
34:28)  Mitchell:
 You could do that Calvin.  But I think you're supposed to analyze the
 sets and look for the sounds in ONLY those sets.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:24
34:29)  Jill:
 i am still alittle confused as to what is the difference between a sibilant
 and a fricative, can anyone answer me?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 17:18
34:30)  Mitchell:
 Jill, here are the definitions of sibilant and fricative, according to
 the Random House Word Menu.  Hope this helps.
 SIBILANT: Speech sound characterized by "s" or hissing sound.
 FRICATIVE: Consonant sound characterized by audible friction of moving
 air forced between vocal organs.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 17:28
34:31)  Mitchell:
 Addendum to Jake's response #9:
 /m./, /n./ occur after stressed syllables, but are FOUND AT THE END
 OF A WORD!  But you probably already knew that.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 17:50
34:32)  Mitchell:
 Maybe its thefact that I spent all last night writing College Bowl
 questions, but isn't "cabinet" under #3 a typo?  I can't see how it
 would fit the rule governing nasals.  Or is there a rule I'm missing?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 18:46
34:33)  Stephanie:
 I dont think it is a typo. You can say it either way, but I am missint
 the rule too.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 19:20
34:34)  Tom:
 II feel that there must be some rule but I can't seem to figure it out
 either.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:40
34:35)  Jin Ho:
 Do we need to know that say, velar means sounds are made from sucha and such
 a place, and velpalatal sounds are made from such and such a place? (for the
 quiz)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:50
34:36)  Rob:
 I am still confused about syllables and stress.  Would syllables and stress
 have a direct effect on what allophone (is that the correct term?) appears
 in what word?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:59
34:37)  John Lawler:
 Oh, yes.  Syllable position and stress (or lack of it) make a *big*
 difference in some cases (and not in others, natch).
 
 Jin Ho, I'm giving out a sample quiz tomorrow.  You (pl) will have to provide
 the symbols for descriptions (voiceless velar stop), and also the
 descriptions for symbols.  Ten of each.
 
 And yes, everybody has to know which sounds are made where.  But only pay
 attention to the common sounds.
 
 Jill, a sibilant is a *kind* of fricative.  It's the kind made in the
 alveolar or palatal region, with a groove in the tongue, characterized (as
 the definition says) by a hissing noise.  [s], [s^], [z], [z^] are the
 principal sibilants, and there are also affricates [c^], etc, that release
 into sibilants.  They count as sibilants with regard to following
 environments (e.g, English plural /-@z/).
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:59
34:38)  Calvin:
 In English, when you have monosyllabic wordw like pill, road, hand,etc., is
 the syllable considered stressed even though the pronunciation key may not
 indicate otherwise?
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:03
34:39)  Fred:
 Here are some rules for the m/mline, n/nline problem: Regular m and n will
 ays begin a word.  M and n with lines under them will never be stressed
 syllables.  Beyond these rules, it seems completely arbitrary whether to use
 m and n or m-and-n-as syllable
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:05
34:40)  John Lawler:
 Yes, Calvin.  Monosyllabic words can be considered stressed automatically.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:54
34:41)  Dawn:
 I have a question about walking I know someone earlier said it they thought
 it was wrong but I thought it would be more like /w)k<h>ing this means
 doubleU openA asperatedK ING.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 23:06
34:42)  Tom:
 This is what I found out in the homework.
 #1-I agree with Jake except for special rules for "walking" and
 "September"
 #2-Voiceless consonants are preceded by aspirated consonants.Voiced
 consonants are found everywhere else.  Same as J ake more or less I believe.
 #3-Every syllabel that is stressed end with syllabic nasels.  Unstressed 
 syllabels are not stressed by nasel syllabics.  Exceptions to these
 rules include for "dismall" and "magnet".  I also wonder if the "L"
 in dismall is a syllabic nasel constant.  I got this by looking at the ph
 phonetic notation.  The thing that I am unclear about is how in 
 "cabinet" the "N" is listed as a sylabic nasel consonant and also not 
 one when the syllabel preceding it is stressed.  Any ideas?
 #4-I got pretty much the same as Jake except that I felt /ay/ and
 /aw/ don't have to be followed by a consonant.(i.e. "die")
 I thing this is pretty much correct but any help from someone else 
 to correct me would help me al lot.  Thanks!  Sorry it's so long.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 00:14
34:43)  Calvin:
 T.J., liquids (lateral resonants) like [l] can become syllabic.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 10:55
34:44)  Kevin:
 Tom, I don't know why the "n" in "cabinet" can be both, but I've heard it
 pronounced both ways.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 11:51
34:45)  Tom:
 Thanks Calvin.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:38
34:46)  Mitchell:
 I am totally clueless about "cabinet."  My guess (pure conjecture, no
 evidence) is that "cabinet" is a mutant--a one word exception to what
 otherwise is a regular rule.  Either say that, or just break down and
 admit that it's something you can't figure out.  There is a lesson
 that you can learn from this that you can apply towards life--yes,
 sometimes you CAN'T figure things out, and even Professor Lawler
 can't help you.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:44
34:47)  Rob:
 My therory on the n/m problem is that the line under the n/m appears when
 the first vowel sound before it is accented.  Also the n/m sound must be at
 the end of a syllable (not necessarily the same syllable that the stressed 
 vowel is in).  This rule seems to fit all the data in problem 3 except 
 cabinet.  My therory for cabinet is that I have heard it pronounced with 2
 syllables or with 3 syllables.  When it is pronounced with 2 syllables the
 n does not end a syllable but with 3 syllables the n might be at the end of
 a syllable.  The problem with this therory is that it does not seem to fit
 the words with n/m in the other problems.  Also I'm not sure if I am breaking
 up cabinet properly.  
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:49
34:48)  Mitchell:
 I have some questions about the assignment on the back of the sample
 quiz.  (I'm putting these here, instead of making a separate item,
 because the assignment is short and rather easy.)
 Regarding GUARIJIO, I hope that #4 isn't a typo.  If it's not (and I
 hope it's not a typo) then what's it doing in the data?
 Regarding JAPANESE, why does #4 have an asterisk?  And what exactly
 is meant by "underlying consonant?"
 Regarding RUSSIAN, what is meant by "basic" when talking phonemes?
 And why is #7 in the data?  It doesn't have anything (or doesn't seem
 to) to contribute to the [x], [xw] comparison.
 That's all.  ten-Q
 Oh, one last announcement: in commemoration of groundhog's day, I
 have written a groundbreaking (no pun intended) poem: Murray the
 Sad Groundhog.  Unfortunately, the poem is too long to post on 
 confer.  But if you would like a photocopy, let me know (either
 publicly, or transmit a private message).  NOW that's all.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 20:51
34:49)  Mitchell:
 A good guess about 'cabinet', Rob.  As good as any guess thus
 far, probably.  Unless someone figures it out, I'm still  thinking
 mutant.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:57
34:50)  Karen :
 Mitchell, I vote that cabinet is dialectic, and thus, arbitrary.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 17:22
34:51)  Henry:
 To  all those who thought problem #3 had to do with stress:  
      Leonora said that is not right.  The data shows that certain
 consonant groups right before the allophones in question comprise 
 the conditioning environments.  Am I wrong or right?
- - - - -
Feb03/94 01:31
34:52)  Tara:
 Mitchell, I second all your questions!!


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 35    Jan30/94 17:33     9 lines    59 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=33
The Glossary

    This is the Glossary Item.  Enter your terms and definitions
 here.  I'll comment on them and correct the ones that need it.
 As this gets longer, we should wind up with a reasonably complete
 list of terms.
 
    It's reasonable to ask for further definitions here, but the
 rule is you have to offer *some* definition yourself, even if it's
 incomplete and you know it's wrong in some important way.  That's
 the way science is done.

   59 responses
- - - - -
Jan31/94 12:34
35:1)  Tom:
 Syntax-Outside economy of words.
 Agentive_ Something that requires someone or something to do
 something.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 13:03
35:2)  John Lawler:
 Right.  To which we could add:
 Morphology: Internal economy of words.
 Grammar: Morphology and Syntax
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:25
35:3)  Jill:
 assimilation-when one sound changes to become more like another sound
- - - - -
Jan31/94 18:48
35:4)  Stephanie:
 cases:endings that change the meaning of a word
 inflection: change that affects meaning
 (I cant remember the opposite of inflection)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 19:17
35:5)  Kiran:
 homophones:two words that are spelled the same and sound the same, but 
     have different meanings (i.e. bear=a furry animal and bear=to carry)
 suppletion: when you change the root completely in changing verb tenses
     (i.e. go ->went)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 20:56
35:6)  Rob:
 Minimal Pair:  Two sounds that vary enough for a native speaker to
 distinguish them.  Thus the words that the two sounds are in mean different
 things.  For example, pear [p] and bear [b].  The fact that only one of the
 sounds changes and the definitions changing indicates that [p] and [b] are
 different phoenemes. Correction:  I don't mean the two phoenemes are minimal
 pairs but the two words are.  Am I correct????
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:03
35:7)  John Lawler:
 Case is a special kind of inflection.  Case is where you inflect the noun
 instead of relying on word order or prepositions as we do in English to tell
 you the noun's role in the sentence.
 
 Inflection doesn't really change *meaning*, exactly.  It's the kind of
 morphology that we tend to call "grammar", because it refers to the way words
 go together in phrases and clauses.  Case, person, number, gender, voice,
 mood, tense, aspect are all inflections.
 
 Derivation is the other kind of morphology.  It changes word class. Like
 compute/computer/computerize/computation/computational is all derivation.
- - - - -
Jan31/94 21:29
35:8)  Nicholas:
 allophone: it is to a phoneme what an allomorph is to a morpheme. For
 instance spit and pit. The p sounds are allophones of the /p/ phoneme. :)
- - - - -
Jan31/94 22:37
35:9)  Anand:
 Retroflex are sounds produced when
 the tip of the tongue is bent backwards and touching the mouth's palate.
- - - - -
Feb01/94 16:30
35:10)  Kiran:
 syllable-timed:takes the same amount of time to produce each syllable
 stress-timed:takes the same amount of time to pronounce stress groups
 stress groups:sounds that fall between two stressed syllables
- - - - -
Feb01/94 17:23
35:11)  Nicholas:
 Question... what exactly is a lateral sound? I think it produced by kinda
 spreading out one's tongue... but haven't a clue what those sounds are
 like. I know Prof L talked about the lateral obstruents today but it just
 struck me that I don't really understand the mechanics of those sounds...
- - - - -
Feb01/94 17:33
35:12)  Leonora Sanchez:
 A lateral sound means the air is flowing out the sides of your tongue.
 Sounds that aren't lateral are central, which means the air flows out
 the middle of your tongue.  If anyone's confused by the term "obstruent",
 it's just a larger set ofsounds that includes stops, fricatives, and 
 affricates.
- - - - -
Feb02/94 15:11
35:13)  Chad:
 Kiran--wouldn't it be more accurate to define the words this way?
  syllable-timed: same amount of time to pronounce each syllable
  stress-time:  same amount of time between each stressed syllable
 Maybe I didn't get them quite straight in my mind.  Let's get it together!
- - - - -
Feb03/94 15:54
35:14)  Anand:
 Is an obstruent a category which includes stops, fricatives, and 
 affricatives???  In that case what is a lateral obstruent?
- - - - -
Feb03/94 16:28
35:15)  Rob:
 I'm still confused about the difference between phoenetics and phenology?
- - - - -
Feb03/94 21:29
35:16)  John Lawler:
 Anand, you got it, except that the word is "affricates", not
 "affricatives".
 
 Rob, phonetics is universal, a branch of human physiology.  It deals
 with things that human beings can do with their vocal apparatus in
 making any language.  Symbols in the phonetic brackets [e] refer to
 a standard world-wide pronunciation.
 
 Phonology (which is the study of phonemes, more or less -- I think some
 phonologists would not like that description :-), on the other hand,
 deals with the ways individual languages vary, and the ways each one
 organizes the arrays of sounds that do appear.  I've been spending
 the last two weeks on displaying the ways in which languages differ
 in their sound systems in bits and pieces, and now we're beginning
 to see (or you should be soon, if my calculations are correct :-)
 something of what one sound system is like.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:15
35:17)  Anand:
 John, I've been wondering, what skills do you need to be a good linguistic.
 This is because, I've been taking ORganic Chemistry 210-215 and Math 215
 and each seems to have their own language.  Is their an easy way to
 learning different scientifc languages?????
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:25
35:18)  Jill:
 I just came back from calculus 116 and it definitely has its own language.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 22:03
35:19)  John Lawler:
 Well, any special discipline has its own ways of talking and referring.
 Certainly math and chemistry are no exception.  If you get a good
 grasp on *any* scientific language, though, you can probably count on
 there being analogs to various parts and features of it in other areas.
 
 The more parts and features you're aware of, of course, the more you
 have available for remapping; which speaks to your original question.
 The single major characteristic to be a good linguist is a continuing
 fascination with language, coupled with an analytic habit of close attention
 to detail.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 23:09
35:20)  Stephanie:
 Math language is hard to understand, and even harder to "translate"
 And there are hand gestures to go along with it. But they are secret,
 to an extent. Learning a "scientific language" or a "math language"
 is much like learning any other foreign language
- - - - -
Feb08/94 10:12
35:21)  Tom:
 Math is more than a forign language.  It seems as if none of the profs or
 t.a.'s can decide on a definate meaning for anything.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 14:50
35:22)  Larry:
 Hey, what's so bad about Math?  As a former math major (key word though--
 FORMER), calculus is actually pretty cool.  It's the upper level courses
 that invent their own languages (Linear and Matrix Algebra).  That's when
 I decided math was becoming useless.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 15:06
35:23)  Margaret:
 Larry, that's when I decided to drop engineering...linear Algebra and 
 Differential equations...I STILL don't know what they are, and I sat through
 the class daily (well, sometimes)
- - - - -
Feb08/94 15:35
35:24)  Stephanie:
 I am in 286 now, and failingm I might add, but I am NOT gonna drop it.
 There is a language there, and I know I can conquer it (cuz Im
 good enough, Im smart enough, and doggone it, people like me)
 Daily Affirmation over
- - - - -
Feb08/94 18:07
35:25)  Lee:
 Math isn't as bad as you guys make it sound.  As a math major (current)
 I think that learning the language of Math is natural.  You learn a 
 process, and along with it comes a name.  Also, if you're math teacher
 is teaching 'in good form' new words are usually defined, very 
 meticulously in fact.  The applications for this stuff (lin. alg, diff
 eq) is what usually turns people off to math, since some of it seems
 to have no real purpose.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 19:25
35:26)  Jennifer:
 Just a question ... What exactly do math majors do?  I don't think that any
 of my math teachers in high school were math majors.  Are you going to become
 a professor?
- - - - -
Feb08/94 20:24
35:27)  Monica:
 I used to enjoy math until I came to UofM and now I have learned to hate it.
 I started in New Wave math and after one class i decided that math was no
 longer for me, never again will I take a math course.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 21:25
35:28)  John Lawler:
 Interesting drift here.  I teach a class in the R.C. called "Understanding
 Mathematics" (it used to be called "Math for Poets" but they changed the
 name to protect the innocent), and we deal quite a lot with the problems
 that are incurred in our culture by people who are (new word I just made
 up) "math-abused".  I *like* math a lot (my first degree was in math), but
 I sympathize with those who hate it; it's very easy to hate.  Too bad,
 because there's an awful lot of fun and awe-inspiring knowledge to be had.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:14
35:29)  Jill:
 Many people that are math majors major in actuarial science-j
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:16
35:30)  Kevin:
 I stopped taking math when it stopped coming intuitively.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:55
35:31)  Margaret:
 I'm sorry if I sound unwordly, but what is an actuarian? (is that 
 right...?) 
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:02
35:32)  Dawn:
 I THINK that actuarians do all of the calculations for probability and 
 statistics for insurance companies . . . Someone else back me up here
 PLEASE
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:25
35:33)  Stephanie:
 Yes, dAWn.
 I think I disagree, but I dont know that stats
 I will declare my math concentration next fall if all goes well. I
 agree with whoever said that math got hard when you stopped seeing
 the applications, and that was and is my favorite part of math,
 applying to to life. (I.e. related rate problems and such), but
 the rest of math is just as interesting. Plus, math, and 
 numbers, come up in *every* aspect of our lives, so it is
 REALLY an important subject. BTW: I plan on being a math teacher.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 01:59
35:34)  Anand:
 Stephanie, we got to get together.  I'm a math major (currently a
 freshman) and don't know where I'm going.  Can you give some
 pointers??????  I'm only in Calc 215 right now!!! Thanks.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 10:22
35:35)  John P:
 i'm a math major and i'm in the music school as well.  the abstract
 languages of math and music are *completely* different.  there is no
 overlap.  everything in math is rigorously defined (at least on the
 surface) and has correct and incorrect usage.  however, musicians will
 freely admit that our descriptive vocabulary is to a large extent merely a
 construct that we all try to agree on.  no one can teach you how to play
 'darkly' or 'with ominous portent.'  the idea of 'feeling the phrases' is
 completely non-verbal--there is no way to describe it.  and a fellow
 percussionist was told by a conductor that he should play a certain piece
 on a 'sadder' snare drum.  
 
 yet, the two languages seem to have some things in common--that is, my
 facility at one has grown with my facility for another.  (at least, that
 was the case until math 451 and now math 513, where it's starting to be
 the opposite  :)  )  what is the relationship between learning one
 abstract language and learning others?
 
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:06
35:36)  Lee:
 To agree with Jill, Margaret and Dawn: I am an actuarial science major
 (within math)  and when I finish and become an actuary (not actuarian)
 I will probably work on insurance rates/probabilities or pensions and
 retirement plans.  It is probably one of the most useful math majors.
 It's pretty easy to get a job, and it is rated pretty highly in job
 satisfaction (as far as salary, stress, benefits, job enjoyment, are
 concerned).  
 Anand: I can give you some advice on math classes if you want.  I think
 we're in the same section (F@11)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 11:51
35:37)  Karen :
 I think that all this dichotomous talk is intersting;
 has anyone read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
 by Robert Pirsig, or the new book by King entitled 
 "The Art of Mathematics"----very pertinent, and might 
 surprise you---I thought this way, too, until I read these . . .
- - - - -
Feb09/94 13:51
35:38)  Tom:
 Karen,I have read"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maitence."  I enjoyed it.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:02
35:39)  Jennifer:
 I really want to read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".  I heard
 it was really good.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:52
35:40)  Stephanie:
 Anand-just t me...but I *too* am a first year student, though maybe
 we can help eachother.
 There is more overlap between music and math, I believe. That is,
 many composers, particularly of the Baroque era, composed music
 which follows patterns which are entirely logical (and logic *is*
 part of math---metamathematics, I believe(Lawler can back me up on
 that one)). In this way, the two fields overlap. (Which may or may
 not explain why I am SOOOO fond of baroque music , and why some
 contemporary music which does not follow such obvious patterns
 is not so pleasing to listen to. (I tried to state that whole
 thing as politically correct as I could. Hope I didnt
 offend anyone.)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 16:02
35:41)  Karen :
 Ok, this suggestion may be a potential item.
 I would love to discuss books----I figure we may as well if 
 we have an existing item about Monty Python. ;)
 So, read any good books?
 How about Heart of Darkness, Brave New World, The Fountainhead,
 Confederacy of Dunces, Anything by Richard Bach, Tom Robbins,
 Well. . .there is a good start.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:20
35:42)  John Lawler:
 <"Wait!", he cried; "What of The Glossary?  You'll be wanting it by and
 by...">
- - - - -
Feb09/94 18:31
35:43)  Stephanie:
 I was enjoying the math discussion. Oh NO ITEM DRIFT!!!
- - - - -
Feb09/94 19:04
35:44)  Anand:
 Stephanie, have you found any good math books lately?????
- - - - -
Feb09/94 19:11
35:45)  Monica:
 Karen I also read Heart of Darkness but I read it in high shcool alongt
 withMany of thos other books with symbolism and inner meanings.(Beowolf, A
 Burnt Out Case, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight) They were pretty interesting
 but I would much rather read a Pat Conroy book.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:45
35:46)  Larry:
 Well, the former math major speaks again.  Up until 216 was great.  
 Then came 217... at which time I made the decision to become a Stats
 major.  I still had to take painful courses like 420, 450, but stats
 offers a lot more.  Without trying to convert people into Stats, I feel
 a lot of times what we initially think is math is actually statistics--
 which brings a rude awakening after a few years.  The Stats department here
 is EXCELLENT, while I have yet (in 7 math classes) to have a decent Math
 instructor.  A lot of you are still declaring, so you might want to look 
 into this a little further.  As for job opportunities in Stats... actuarial
 firms are looking for stats majors as well as financial corporations and
 consulting firms.  Any questions, feel free to send me a message.
  
 As for movie quotes... "Be the ball, Danny!".
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:56
35:47)  Karen :
 Deify Pat Conroy NOW.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 23:29
35:48)  John Lawler:
 Push the button, Frank.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:55
35:49)  Stephanie:
 Try _The Mathematical Experience_, particularly the chapter on
 the 
 "idea; mathematician"
 That's IDEAL.
 It is hilarious
 BTW: I didn not fail my test, but the class is still a killer. I
 guess math is just an addiction for me, though. (SCARY)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 11:38
35:50)  Jennifer:
 I hated Heart of Darkness -- I found it very difficult to read.  But I loved
 Apocolypse Now, which we watched after reading the book.  An amazing play to
 read is M. Butterfly (different from the opera, Madame Butterfly).  It was
 the original Crying Game.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:06
35:51)  Stephanie:
 WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MATH DISCUSSION (can I start an item on that)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 22:46
35:52)  John Lawler:
 Sure, why not?
- - - - -
Feb11/94 12:32
35:53)  Karen :
 I <<<<<<HATED>>>>> Apocalypse Now----I found it a terrible
 movie that violated the beauty and subtlety or Conrad's prose--
 the idea    that American cinema could hope to capture something
 as brilliant as Heart of Darkness is laughable at best and 
 terrifying and anger-inspiring at worst. . .
- - - - -
Feb11/94 14:24
35:54)  Joe:
 I will never argue for the absolute superiority of cinema over literature.
 Yet, I will never say there is anything inherently "bad" about an attempt to
 capture a piece of writing on the screen.  Apocalypse Now had all the beauty
 and subtlety of Conrad's masterpiece, and I believe it went even further
 than Conrad did in exposing the insanity that a human is capable of.  One
 question, Karen:  what about the film made you so angry?  Was it actually due
 to the film's content?  Or was it the film's mission that terrified you?
 Are foreign filmmakers just "better" than American filmmakers?
- - - - -
Feb11/94 20:48
35:55)  Nicholas:
 Hey guyses, I hate to sound negative or whatnot, but could move the 
 discussion of non-glossary related 'stuff' to a new or other item please...
 Thanks!
- - - - -
Feb12/94 21:30
35:56)  Anand:
 Can anyone please tell me what is a 'base' form???
 or
 Once you have found two similar sounds which you know are allomopres of
 each other, how do you know which is the 'base' form.
 For example,
 in the Japanese homework we have two allomorphes -de and -te :gerund form
 -de comes when the ending sound in the root word is either 'n'/'m'/'n'
 Sorry, 'b'
 -te comes when the ending sound is either 'e' or 'i' or 'k'
 In this case, which one is the 'base' form???????
 Thanks!!!
- - - - -
Feb13/94 20:33
35:57)  Larry:
 I would say the 'te' is the base form.  Usually the base form is the 
 one whose conditioning environment is 'else' (a.k.a. the most common
 form).
- - - - -
Feb13/94 22:17
35:58)  John Lawler:
 That's a good rule of thumb, Larry.  Another way of putting it (though it's
 really the same reason) is that a base form is the one that makes it easiest
 to reconstruct all the forms by an economic use of rules.
 
 Since it's generally hardest to state the exact environments of "elsewhere"
 cases (they're usually disjunctions: Environment A or Environment B or ...),
 that means they're most likely to show up as base forms in a system of rule
 statements.
 
 You can look at this business of how to write up a statement of the pattern
 (which is a significant part of what you are to learn in this course, and
 will become more important as the course goes on - broad hint) in several
 ways; which one you use is partly a matter of taste, and partly a matter of
 which kind meets the needs best.  Two good ones are "item and arrangement",
 which is where you set up formulas like the Turkish verb morphology solution
 I passed out.  This is static, and just says what the paradigms are and how
 they interact.  The other is "item and process", which is where 'base forms'
 come in.  In this type of statement, you start with a particular form and
 then apply a series of rules that produce the actual output.  An example of
 this might be the rules that describe the mutations of final consonants in
 Japanese verb roots before the gerund or past tense ending.
- - - - -
Apr24/94 04:11
35:59)  Kevin:
 Suppletion.  *now* it's in the glossary item


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 36    Jan31/94 13:19     3 lines     4 responses
Jake                         
Test

 This is a test item for me to see if I can do something.
 No need to respond and I'll freeze it after I'm done.
 Thanks. :-)

    4 responses
- - - - -
Jan31/94 13:29
36:1)  Jake:
 OK, for those of you who care, this is an stuffed, uuencoded
 ResEdit file. It's a B&W image of Madoka from Orange Road.
 The resultant file should be archive.sit.
  
 If you don't know what any of those terms are, you can safely
 ignore this post.
  
 ---cut here---
 begin 644 Archive.sit
 MtTEthp`a```c\wilxwta``````````h`dDUAyf]Kxu\QwV=RywESxVeLyxka
 MDdbbPz`````c````````````lON^`c`CP``SyvHcz@dl`b@``p```ck[VfEc
 M;VYIpWqPapbI<l_AJwjTB```c[X````````czP````bzr@``````````nqt`
 M``phblaaOh`mc@yLqKbAPX<phtIHdH;lFSuAOLsX<DynFsQSQHqAtVzl`hiI
 MAKQQDYhnGh`Iu[zdtT`@A`aMhNHtD`KnLW`og_Crr;rHTzmhDRI=JKpa@YAN
 MZl@i`X=nFItaa_[;RKvKUZ]@PXH=r[zLV;mHTZI=R[zMV[=<`Qh``k>NW;MX
 MR=jm^V^OvK]]N]hmvg>Ow\lmRQh>Wg=Qqlu;ds<FkaCPVlvaf<>U?eERxH>b
 MQqk<KgmSY\JEhQLfnUIUZLy\OUhNWwHVY\ElxWO]GepWZLf]`[mFrEFTTLFq
 MPXhFZGJU[lrXHxlv_MSQP^;wA[\NJOPQ=HCfHym^KyVST;;GTsmWNYZ]][=d
 MMz;uL_v=GC];;XgYiT\twwOh\odooZKl\T\^D`SRssS`gocco`W>Pn`an^pc
 MR`@SXaopcO@``pbggMZ@hp`_zbB`Bb`xL`d^lcbP`s\@xab`oPc@dda?<mPx
 MbcPWcLoCuC_^@\^m`QkIcYeYizGDDHHala>stdxIywi\Wpzy;\`uqJuPTYWf
 MVfCDjt>E=yxuI]>wFuvfEFVXqq=z=X>Uy^ySOXfGVIzHCv<G;gBzeAUODOfY
 MfWfgE?>GGhx>q]V@QiWyvVUPDIF==ntAmBFEB=KygJoO;<IIE]ReUYJ>VxEz
 MWwMKAzH>JFReV>J>r@yTTIqloO`ooobhE>L_MNiJZUBYVOH`ogoVArNQQh[j
 MU;cf`OcK;p`<N^MM\`S[pdci;OuKykxZUnUNVgV[K;oq?;OKK<lVqfRzpciW
 MkKgw@O>NLX]MFRRK]SJTKKWxmIpNL^TbYQC`JMV;kDg\iI;OMKAUZV]wRs[[
 MLiKA=HxPLankRCaxaJ=edaa@o;luo[]@h^huZaP`S@wDWdaofoDd\X_lXtry
 MEyvTFEvL>HN^nyVuG_v<fzS?xsyHFTho;zEY<rI;zyl[vPQhDC@k=BZOV?k[
- - - - -
Jan31/94 13:29
36:2)  Jake:
 MPmy`=GPKPK]vr]BVU_XkIll;a[pQOmTmeiaabbDd`dlVTh`l`R`pQ`d`P@a@
 MPaqtrieWpcHDlxpshP@d@aeICldfcHI[Ts@;maaDq^mSiaZphiAcgI`CFe<>
 MDbz_TeotUimeTm`ONzAvp`xnHyYuazNWWI@ag=rNF@hAZmXx`RwXgMasP@op
 spdXkclbn`DmXe`x=yy`a@AaY`l
 `
 end
  
 Ooh, that took a long time.
 Now to recopy it :-) (I'm having fun).
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:07
36:3)  Jake:
 John, if you read my last #3, don't freeze this. I have an idea...
- - - - -
Jan31/94 15:24
36:4)  Jake:
 Okabee... That was a hard won success. Whewh *wipes brow* not worth
 the effort though. And that was only a 3k document.
 Alrightee, how do I freeze this item now...


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 37    Feb03/94 22:26     3 lines    74 responses
Dawn                     
translation problem

 I had a question about the new assignment due Tuesday, Feb. 8, and since we
 normally have an item for every homework problem I thought I'd just start it.
 Hope that's O.K. 

   74 responses
- - - - -
Feb03/94 22:28
37:1)  Dawn:
 Are we simply to translate the story or are we to again make generalizations 
 about patterns within the text?
- - - - -
Feb03/94 22:31
37:2)  Jake:
 Simple translate, I believe. I have an advantage over the rest of you
 (with the exception of SAM) in that we read this story in the class
 I had with John last term. It's hilarious.
- - - - -
Feb03/94 23:04
37:3)  Samuel:
 Hey, I've been working on the assingment and it is pretty cool.  I am
 having a great time trying to figure out words that I supposedly use all
 the time.  Prof. Lawler, I am having some trouble with the mid front vowels.
 I can't seem to recognize the sound, I'm always mixing them up.  Is there an
 easy way to distinguish them.  Another question: Are most of the English
 vowels diphthongized?  It appears that for most a's this phenomenon occurs.
 Does this occur with other vowels?  
 Well guys and gals have a great time!
- - - - -
Feb03/94 23:25
37:4)  Kory:
 This assignment is definitely the best one so far.  I enjoy this kind of 
 work.  This has helped me pronounce some of the sounds better now that
 I know where they are used.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 00:21
37:5)  Baiyina Muhammad:
 I agree. This is the best problem that we've had so far!!
- - - - -
Feb04/94 00:42
37:6)  Kiran:
 I also agree. I really enjoyed doing this homework problem.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 11:20
37:7)  John Lawler:
 Good.  Though if I'd handed it out before all the work we've done
 in the last 2 weeks, you'd be singing a different tune.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 13:29
37:8)  Tom:
 I think that this is the best homework we've had so far.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 14:50
37:9)  Lida:
 I agree with everyone who is having fun with this assignment.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 15:18
37:10)  Alana:
 I agree too.  This problem is not only fun, but (at least for me), it's a
 break for my brain.  I seroiusly thought I was gonna burst some brain cells.
 Thanks professor!!
- - - - -
Feb04/94 16:43
37:11)  Henry:
 In the second to last paragraph what is 'het'?  Also in paragraph 4, what is
 'pinser'?  I also like this problem.  I hope we have more like this as long
 as the language is English.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 17:11
37:12)  Vassoula:
 I agree this assignment was very fun and it'd didn't
 strain the brain.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 17:13
37:13)  Jennifer:
 I'm with everyone else -- definitely a great assignment, especially after
 the four quizzes I've had this week.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 17:53
37:14)  Monica:
 I like everyone else like this assignment. I also had 4 test this week and
 am extremely burned out and this assignment is a great break, although I've
 always liked translating languages the best.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 18:53
37:15)  Calvin:
 I get to use Microsoft Word Spelling function on this one.  Awesome!!
- - - - -
Feb04/94 19:00
37:16)  Jake:
 OK, can everyone stop agreeing on that ya'll like this assignment? :-)
  
 HK, I don't have it in froent of me, but "het" might = hate.
 And I'm sure that 'pinser' = pincer.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 19:10
37:17)  Lee:
 Boy Jake, I REALLY LIKE this assignment!  Anybody else like it?!?
    :)
- - - - -
Feb04/94 20:17
37:18)  Calvin:
 Did anyone figure out the translations for the last word (1st sentence) and
 the first word (last sentence) of the third paragraph?  I had "fierce" and
 ""what", respectively, but they don't quite make much sense to me.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 20:43
37:19)  Dawn:
 Fierce is correct I think ( I don't have it with me ).  It would be like
 it hurt somethin' fierce.
 I worte a letter to one of my friends today and the first 3 lines I put into 
 Phonetic spelling.  That ought to really confuse her!
 Actually doing this was kind of hard because I just use the words, I don't
 THINK about them.
- - - - -
Feb04/94 23:34
37:20)  Stephanie:
 same, Dawm
- - - - -
Feb05/94 10:24
37:21)  John Lawler:
 Yeah, this was the easy part.  Going the other way requires more
 confidence and practice.  But it's not all that hard, either.
- - - - -
Feb05/94 15:33
37:22)  Larry:
 Hey, Jake, don't YOU like this assignment?
 "I loved the assignment...
 It was much better than CATS....
 I'm going to do it again and again.... "
 (cheezy SNL line from years past)
- - - - -
Feb05/94 15:37
37:23)  John P:
 not to put up a dissenting opinion, but i thought this assignment was
 great.  i really liked it.  while not a no-brainer, it seemed more
 attainable from the outset.  :)  what do you think, jake?
 
- - - - -
Feb05/94 15:47
37:24)  Stephanie:
 gee, does jake like?
- - - - -
Feb05/94 18:21
37:25)  Tara:
 funny, Larry.  :) Calvin I got the same translations as you.  That 'what' is
 kinda weird, but it also makes some sense.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 15:59
37:26)  Stephanie:
 Did anyone else notice that there are different translations for
 the same word?
 I think it just has to do with the way we pronouncce it, though
- - - - -
Feb06/94 17:10
37:27)  Tara:
 I noticed that SAM with the word "the".  You're right though,
 it is just different in the way we pronounce it.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 17:41
37:28)  Jake:
 Not to be picky, but "transcription" or "transliteration" might have
 been better choices than "translate", since we're not really translating
 anything.
 Any choices on terminology, John?
- - - - -
Feb06/94 17:48
37:29)  Henry:
 Thanks, Jake.  In the last sentence of the third paragraph I think
 it reads 'one thing and another'.  Should it have an 'or' instead?
 Also, what is the word for a female scorpion?  Scorpiones?  It's not
 in my dictionary.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 19:13
37:30)  Larry:
 Henry, I think it is "scorpioness" for the female, although i've
 never known a female scorpion too well...
- - - - -
Feb06/94 19:17
37:31)  Dale:
 I agree with everyone about this assignment.  This was such a refreshing
 break from all the other work that I had to do.  I thoroughly enjoyed it!
- - - - -
Feb06/94 19:17
37:32)  Larry:
 Tara, I was trying to figure out that "what" sentence too and it was
 driving me nuts.  I have the same translation as you and Calvin, but 
 it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  And, Henry, "or"
 does seem to make more sense, but sometimes these assignments and 
 common sense aren't too correlated :)
- - - - -
Feb06/94 19:22
37:33)  Dale:
 Exactly Larry!:)
- - - - -
Feb06/94 19:53
37:34)  Sarah:
 I finished reading the assignment, but are we supposed to write them out?
 I love this assignment! :)
- - - - -
Feb06/94 20:27
37:35)  Kiran:
 I think we are supposed to write the assignment out, Sarah.
 I also agree that "one thing or another" makes more sense than "and". 
 Maybe it is a typo. Prof. Lawler???
- - - - -
Feb06/94 20:44
37:36)  Mitchell:
 My Random House Word Menu doesn't give a listing for a female
 scorpion.  I don't know if such a term exists.  I'll keep looking,
 but I think this is a perfect opportunity for someone to coin a new
 word.
- - - - -
Feb06/94 22:25
37:37)  Jill:
 Wait-guess what-I enjoyed the homework. I agree that I thought that some of
 the little words like the they though,etc confused me, but i think it was
 helpful in learning to write phonetically. Anyone agree??
- - - - -
Feb06/94 22:35
37:38)  Stephanie:
 SZCZ: I think it was supposed to be toungue-in-chek
 that shoulc say cheek
- - - - -
Feb06/94 23:41
37:39)  John Lawler:
 The idiom is "what with one thing and another".
 
 And if there weren't a word "scorpioness" before, there is now.
 
 As for the trans- word, I frankly don't care in this context.
 There's really only one thing you can do with this to show me
 that you were able to read it, and that's what you should do.
 Copy it down in correctly spelled English and hand it in.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 02:03
37:40)  Kevin:
 So I suppose I should change "fellas" to "fellows," then.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 10:09
37:41)  John:
 Well, I have to join the bandwagon.  I definitely enjoyed this assignment
 more than the past assignments.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 11:27
37:42)  Tom:
 I couldn't agree more.  This assignment was one that helped me gain
 some confidence in my Ling. skills.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 14:26
37:43)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Good point, Kevin.  Everyone should make sure they use the dictionary 
 spelling and not the slang spelling.  When in doubt, use what the dictionary
 says.  (So use "and" instead of 'n' or an', for example.)
- - - - -
Feb07/94 14:50
37:44)  Stephanie:
 Even if that is how it is probnounced?
- - - - -
Feb07/94 14:57
37:45)  Lee:
 Yeah, I have the same question as Kevin.  While 'n' or an' may be short
 readings of the word 'and' I would say that 'fellas' is definitely
 different from 'fellows.'  In the sense which Will Cuppy (sp?) is writing
 'fellas' definitely seem to be the more appropriate word choice.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 15:03
37:46)  Jill:
 Do we have to type the homework assignment?
- - - - -
Feb07/94 15:54
37:47)  Dawn:
 I doubt it
- - - - -
Feb07/94 15:57
37:48)  Karen :
 Well, to risk sounding unique (ha, ha) I would like to comment that 
 I also enjoyed this assignment. It entertained my mother and me on 
 our commute to Chicago this weekend; she got a real kick out of it. . .
 and the people around us commented on the sick and twisted humor
 of academics in general. . .c'est la vie. . .
- - - - -
Feb07/94 16:14
37:49)  Margaret:
 What are we supposed to do with the numbered sentences at the end? Do we
 stick them in where the numbers are, or do we leave them at the end?
 Was there a verdict on the **with** problem?????  
- - - - -
Feb07/94 17:08
37:50)  Kiran:
 I also didn't really know where to put the numbered sentences, so I just
 put them at the end.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 17:45
37:51)  John Lawler:
 After all, they *are* footnotes.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:07
37:52)  Anand:
 Henry, by the way, 'pinser' is pincher, and 'het' is hate.  I hope
 that answers your question.  But, I have a question regarding a word
 in the third paragraph, 3rd sentence, in the middle, 'ic.'  The word
 after that is time, and the word before that is severe.  But, what is 
 'ic'?
 Thanks@@
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:17
37:53)  Rob:
 Isn't pincher supposed to be spelled pincer?  At least that what my
 dictionary said though there could be two speelings of the word.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:53
37:54)  John P:
 anand, that was 'ic^' not 'ic.'  so it means 'each,' i believe.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 20:53
37:55)  Dale:
 I think that it's each too JP2:)
- - - - -
Feb07/94 21:23
37:56)  Mitchell:
 It's spelled "pincer."  Take it from a four-time spelling bee runner-up.
- - - - -
Feb07/94 22:05
37:57)  John Lawler:
 It's spelled "pincer" and pronounced as on the sheet.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 01:30
37:58)  Trinna:
 Thanks for the help. My questions were answered. And yes, I, too, liked 
 the assignment.
 
- - - - -
Feb08/94 12:30
37:59)  Mark:
 Like everyone else ..I thought this was a great, fun homework.  But I think
 Prof. Lawler was giving an ominous hint when he said translating forward
 is easy...the reverse is the "fun" part!! *gulp*
- - - - -
Feb08/94 14:52
37:60)  Larry:
 I thought about that too, and I'm sure it will be coming.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 15:07
37:61)  Margaret:
 I say we mutiny and refuse to do it....
 (but I too liked the assignment...who says conformity is bad????)
- - - - -
Feb08/94 18:10
37:62)  Lee:
 One thought on the assignment, now that its done and handed in:
 in the phonetic spelling of the word "insects" shouldn't the 't'
 probably have been left out, after all--how many people pronounce it?
- - - - -
Feb08/94 20:27
37:63)  Vassoula:
 I looked up pincer and pincher is also correct according to 
 Webster.
- - - - -
Feb08/94 21:27
37:64)  John Lawler:
 Lee, the /t/ in "insects" is essentially irrelevant, as you note. You have to
 go through an alveolar stop [t] to get from the velar stop [k] to the
 alveolar sibilant [s].
- - - - -
Feb08/94 23:17
37:65)  Kevin:
 Insex.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:06
37:66)  Dawn:
 actually, doing the transition from Phonetics to english isn't that hard if 
 you have good examples of the verb sounds which John gave us
- - - - -
Feb09/94 00:26
37:67)  Stephanie:
 Kevin: ROTF
- - - - -
Feb09/94 14:13
37:68)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Yes, Vassoula, there is such a word as "pincher" but it's pronounced with 
 a "ch", not an "s" (at least according to my dictionary.)
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:56
37:69)  Rob:
 Also in my dictionary pincher means something different from pincer.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:59
37:70)  Karen :
 Rob----where are you? I tried to call you but you have 
 no machine. Call me about the group. Karen 747-9434
 (sorry to use public aire time)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 00:15
37:71)  Kevin:
 ROTF?
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:55
37:72)  Stephanie:
 rolling on the floor---i.e. I almost peed my pants I was laughing so hard
 and I have no idea why
- - - - -
Feb10/94 22:51
37:73)  Margaret:
 SAM, could you please explain what you are talking about????!!!!!  It SOUNDS
 interesting...?
- - - - -
Feb11/94 14:22
37:74)  Stephanie:
 I cant remember anymore. Something someone said. And it was late, and I
 was tire, and everything was HILARIOUS


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 38    Feb09/94 15:18     1 line     29 responses
Jill                      
turkish homework

 this will be an item for the turkish homework-anyone start it yet

   29 responses
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:53
38:1)  Stephanie:
 nope
- - - - -
Feb09/94 15:57
38:2)  Vassoula:
 yes, I have almost all of it figured out
 except I'm not too sure what miy stands for.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:19
38:3)  Jake:
 /miy/ is an allomorph of /mi/, the question phoneme.
 Anyone else think this homework was easy, or is it just me?
  
 My only question is: how is the /y/ prounounced before a vowel?
 (Which is not really neccessary to finish the homework :-) )
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:21
38:4)  John Lawler:
 I just wanted you to get back in the groove doing morphology,
 is all.  This is a warmup.  The more interesting problems
 follow.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:41
38:5)  Jake:
 Can I safely call the phones /l/ and /r/ retroflex?
- - - - -
Feb09/94 17:52
38:6)  Jake:
 Oh, here's a hint: there are two types of vowel harmoney going on here.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 19:07
38:7)  Anand:
 Jake, I thought is was only one type of vowel harmoney, 
 with the exception of -yor.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:10
38:8)  Nicholas:
 I have a small problem in explaining the following occurence:
 #17, /mali-y/ is followed by /di-m/ and #30 /mi-y/ is followed by /i-m/ so
 why the use of the voiced alveolar stop in 17 and not 30?
 Everything else makes sense though... 
- - - - -
Feb09/94 20:50
38:9)  Larry:
 Am I the only one having problems with this Turkish thang?  Its driving
 me nuts!  The vowel harmony is fine and dandy, but how about the order.  
 Anyone want to help me out with some paradigms:
  
 Root + voice + .... 
  
 HELP!
- - - - -
Feb09/94 21:13
38:10)  Lucas:
 I don't think the vowel harmony is any more complex than the last
 Turkish problem.  Check out notes from the last one to get it.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 21:46
38:11)  Mitchell:
 I thought this Turkish assignment was easy, too.  I think I've
 got most of the finer points--the details, I'm sure, will follow.  
 Anyway, here's what I've got regarding order, Larry:
 Root+Passive Morpheme+Negation Morpheme+Mood (ie, should)+Tense+
 Question Morpheme+Person (I, they, etc.).  Hope this helps.
 Anyone else having trouble is welcome to use this, too.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 22:21
38:12)  Mitchell:
 Either this is a bulletin or the headache I have is clouding my
 thinking.  Anyway, look at #6 on the homework.  I think there's a
 typo there--if I'm not mistaken, it should be gorulmeyoruz.
 May I please have a verification?
- - - - -
Feb09/94 22:54
38:13)  Fred:
 I have been having problems with the negation morphmeme.  It does not 
 seem to follow the rules of vowel harmony like the other morphemes do.
 Also, I wanted to mention that, I think, the third person singular
 marker functions differently from the other person markers.  It
 only appears in past tense, and i think it may be a marker of the
 simple past tense.  Further, note that it does not appear in 
 the same place as the other person markers; 3rd per sing always
 comes before the question morpheme whereas the other person
 markers appear after it.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 23:30
38:14)  Kory:
 Mitchell, I think you are right about the typo in #6.  It is the only 
 one that doesn't follow the vowel harmony.
- - - - -
Feb09/94 23:37
38:15)  John Lawler:
 It's entirely possible for a morpheme to be zero.  For instance, we use
 zero to mark the noun singular in English; and one of our two tenses,
 present, is also zero except in the third person singular.  It's very
 common for one person out of three to be zero, and when that occurs,
 as it does in Turkish, the normal one to pick is third person.  So, yes,
 Fred, it isn't actually marked; it's "marked" by not being present
- - - - -
Feb09/94 23:39
38:16)  Henry:
 I think you are right Fred.  However, I think that the negation morpheme
 has it's allophones simply determined by low vowel harmony.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 00:03
38:17)  Lida:
 maybe the /mis/ in #35 should be /d/ like in #17 and #22?
- - - - -
Feb10/94 00:44
38:18)  Tara:
 I guess I'm having more problems than the rest of you......sigh!
 Anyway, here are my questions.  How many verb tenses (or aspects?)
 did you get?  I think I'm having trouble picking out some of these
 morphemes, ok, I KNOW I'm having trouble.  Uh oh, Mitchell, I thought
 .....ah nothing, I thought I was messed up....just never mind....
 sorry, it's been one of those nights!!   Another question, is the morpheme
 for "I"  /di-m/ and /ti-m/ etc. or just /i-m/ ??  Thanks.  Ooh, I am so
 confused, any insightful comment would be GREAT!!
- - - - -
Feb10/94 00:53
38:19)  Dawn:
 I must be linguistically challenged, but I  had problems with this one.
 The concepts weren't that hard, it just took SO LONG to write up!
- - - - -
Feb10/94 01:08
38:20)  Tara:
 Hi again.  I guess I'm starting to see things a bit more clearly. :)
 Instead of changing the /mi-s/ in #35, should it just end in /di-m/?
 Help!
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:15
38:21)  Tom:
 Dawn,you think your linguistically challenged?  You should see me.  I have
 called the Professors,recieved andvice from a student in my house who
 will have a linguistics degree after this semester and talked to another
 student and got advice and I'm still lost.  This is crazy.  I'm totally
 frustrated I've spent six hours and feel more confused than ever:(!
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:46
38:22)  Larry:
 At least I don't feel like the only one now.  I finished my
 writeup, but there were a couple things I couldn't explain very
 well.  The /tim/,/dim/ thing Tara mentioned earlier was tough for
 me to figure out (I guessed)... Is it /ti/+/m/ or /t/+/im/ ?  Also
 I had trouble explaining the /y/ on #35.  Lastly, why does #13
 --ac^m+slard+ have a past marker /d+/ ? (Same with #11)... 
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:48
38:23)  Kevin:
 Well, I don't know.  Sari.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:55
38:24)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Tara, it doesn't matter what you call the tenses or aspects.  Just make
 sure you assign only one meaning per morpheme.  (For example, there's no
 morpheme meanig "1st person singular *and* past tense".)  Also, sounds
 at the beginning or end of a morpheme may be deleted in some circumstances.
   Also, tenses and aspects can be combined in a word.  For example, past
 tense ("I did something.") and progressive aspect ("be doing something")
 can be combined ("I was doing something.")  Don't expect to be able to 
 translate from English word for word.  Look for the different meanings
 youu find in the English sentences (past tense, passive, and so on.)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 10:58
38:25)  Stephanie:
 DO: I agre. How long did we sit there writing the same thing over and
 over. Gee. probably should have just writen the genereal rule
 like you suggestsed in the first place.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 11:00
38:26)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Larry, #11 and 13 are past tense; they have other tense/aspect markers as
 well.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 12:03
38:27)  Kevin:
 I tried to boil things down, but this is definitely a very scattershot
 write-up.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 12:39
38:28)  Dale:
 I agree.  It's hard to organize everything in a nice way!
- - - - -
Feb12/94 23:44
38:29)  Kevin:
 It was a very scattershot write-up, and only 70-80% correct, as it turned 
 out.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 39    Feb10/94 19:26     1 line     59 responses
Calvin                        
THE REALLY, REALLY , REALLY, BIG JAPANESE PROBLEM

 Since I don't see an item for the Japanese assignment, I'm opening one.

   59 responses
- - - - -
Feb10/94 19:40
39:1)  John Lawler:
 It's not really *that* big, is it?
- - - - -
Feb10/94 19:45
39:2)  Calvin:
 Oh yes it is... ;)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:06
39:3)  Stephanie:
 huge
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:15
39:4)  Dale:
 I havethe delete key is not working:(  Scott O'neil and I
 have a question about some things.  We have the the passive and causitive
 suffix (sase, rare) drop their first consonant when after another consonant.
 Butr we are conflicting because we have a rule that states a voiced 
 consonant becomes an N before a consonant.  We also have an order like
 Verb Root-Cuausitive-passive-past.  Any comment questions? Suggestion?
 Thanks:)  We appreciatye it.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:17
39:5)  Dale:
 Sorry, I got my partner's name wrong.  It's sean not Scott.  Sorry Sean:)
 ]
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:17
39:6)  Mitchell:
 I'd have to agree with John--it wasn't really that big (to me at
 least)  I think I've figured out pretty much the entire problem
 set.  If anyone needs help, let me know and I'll respond as best I
 can.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:21
39:7)  Mitchell:
 I think you're looking at the verb roots the wrong way, Dale.  You
 can summarize the gerund changes ending in "te" with a couple of
 quick rules, whereupon you can lump everything else under the "-nde"
 group.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:22
39:8)  Dale:
 How so Mitchell?
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:30
39:9)  Calvin:
 What's the root for 'award'?  Is it atae or ata?  If its' atae, then I'll
 have one less rule to worry about!
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:30
39:10)  Mitchell:
 By analyzing the data, Dale, you can see that "-te" is found in the
 gerund endings only if its root 1) ends in a vowel or 2) ends in "k"
 (which magically transmutes itself to an "i" in the gerund form).
 Now, looking at the rest of the data, I don't see any exceptions or
 variations away from this rule, so you can say that everything else
 is followed by "-de" (also saying that the last consonant of the
 root becomes an "n" unless it's already "n", in which case it stays
 the same.)  Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:32
39:11)  Mitchell:
 If we follow the paradigm of "tabe-" (#1), we can then surmise that
 the root for 'award' is indeed "atae"
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:33
39:12)  Dale:
 Thanks Mitchell.  i guess I analysed it correctly, but stated the rule
 wrong.  Thanks again:)
- - - - -
Feb10/94 20:57
39:13)  Calvin:
 M.S., i really hope that 'award' is atae, but i have to be a little cautious
 here. Suppose that 'award' is ata instead, then it is not possible that this
 root in question, because it ends in a vowel other than e, can condition with
 suffixes in a manner unlike tabe which ends in e?  Nevertheless, what you
 said before makes a lot of sense to me.
- - - - -
Feb10/94 21:22
39:14)  Calvin:
 Ignore my response 13 above.  It'll just cause more confusion about this
 assignment.  I checked the data again and 'award' is very likely atae. 
 Mitch, you were right all along.  Thanks
- - - - -
Feb11/94 11:25
39:15)  Larry:
 My group worked on this yesterday and it took all of 30 minutes to
 figure everything out.  For those of you who are a bit tentative about
 it because of Prof. Lawler's warning that Turkish was just a warm-up
 exercise for Japanese, just start pulling it apart.  It is EASY!... and 
 I was going nuts on the Turkish.  There are very few changes and they are
 simple to figure out... and no VOWEL HARMONY.  The key on this 
 seems to be to keep everything simple... 
- - - - -
Feb11/94 15:10
39:16)  Calvin:
 Are affixes always morphemic?
- - - - -
Feb11/94 17:55
39:17)  John Lawler:
 If you mean "do affixes always represent some morpheme?", t hen  the
 answer is yes.   Because *everything* represents *some* morpheme.
 
 But there may be several morphemes in a single affix, and there may be
 a number of allomorphs of any morpheme.
- - - - -
Feb11/94 18:50
39:18)  Calvin:
 I have a rather difficult time deciding the base form of each suffix category
 excluding the gerund.  Picking a base form is almost 50/50. For example, the
 causative could be -sase or -ase depending on the sound preceding it. 
 Furthermore, these allomorphs do not appear to exist in other types of
 envrionment so that I can make a conclusive statement about the base form.
- - - - -
Feb11/94 20:28
39:19)  John Lawler:
 Well...
 
 Which would be easier: predicting which initial consonant appears after
 a vowel, or predicting the deletion of initial consonants after another
 consonant?
 
 An equivalent problem would be: given the gerund, predict which consonant
 might show up in the base.  That works fine for /k/.../i/, but it's
 got real problems for /b/.../n/ and /m/.../n/.
 
 The thing to do in each case is posit the root that contains the maximum
 of necessary information.  Necessary for what?  Necessary to make the
 rules simple.
- - - - -
Feb12/94 13:45
39:20)  Samuel:
 Prof Lawler, I still cannot explain the reason for the 
 changes b->n , k->i or m->n.  I am trying to analyze the 
 voicing and the place of articulation, but I can find
 a pattern.  Is there a patter or is this just something
 that just occurs?
- - - - -
Feb12/94 14:59
39:21)  Monica:
 My group also just worked on the Japanese problem and it was not that hard
 at all.  What's up with making it sound huge? It took us one page of write
 up and we thouht that maybe we did not do enough because the max was 2 pages
- - - - -
Feb12/94 15:00
39:22)  Kiran:
 I don't think this problem was very hard, unless we missed something.
- - - - -
Feb12/94 15:00
39:23)  Jill:
 My group and I just finished and it took under an hour. I found it too be not
 that difficult.
- - - - -
Feb12/94 19:53
39:24)  Calvin:
 Guys, it isn't a hard or long assignment.  I was just kidding... (next time
 remember this ----> ;) ) I apologize for the exaggeratio Guys, it isn't a
 hard or long assignment at all.  I was just kidding... next time remember
 this ----> ;)  I apologize if I've scared anyone.
- - - - -
Feb12/94 21:24
39:25)  Anand:
 I've found something very interesting.
 I think the 's' and 'r' deletions for the causitive and passive
 form have a pattern.  You delete the 's' or 'r' before a consonant
 such as 'm' or 'b'.  But, if you look at every word, every sound
 you will notice that: consonant -> vowel -> consonant
 or vowel -> consonant etc...  Every consonant is followed by a vowel
 Similarily every vowel is followed by a consonant.  There is only
 one exception , how3ever,
 1. shin (I'm not sure but maybe 'sh' is just one sound
- - - - -
Feb12/94 22:19
39:26)  Anand:
 Another thing, John, how do you differentiate between someone
 'calling' or 'reading ' in Japanese?
- - - - -
Feb12/94 22:34
39:27)  Anand:
 Cancel, response #25.  I just found my error!!!
 Thanks!@
- - - - -
Feb12/94 23:47
39:28)  Kevin:
 I hate to echo everybody else, but I found this assignment ridiculously
 easy compared to the Turkish.
- - - - -
Feb13/94 01:31
39:29)  Dawn:
 Are we supposed to analyse why whatever happens happens?
- - - - -
Feb13/94 22:25
39:30)  John Lawler:
 You built up your mental muscles on the Turkish, now it feels easy to
 do Japanese.  You're probably right; though there are some interesting
 things about this problem.
 
 Given the way Japanese syllable structure goes --
    1 initial consonant (or none), followed by
    1 vowel, followed by
    1 pretty rare and very optional /n/ --
 most Japanese words have C-V-C-V-C-V-C-V... patterns.  Anything that
 would break up this pattern is changed.  So, in particular, things
 that would be consonant clusters are changed to single consonants,
 somehow.  Maybe the first consonant drops or changes to something
 that's allowed, or maybe the second one does something.  There are
 a number of things that can happen, and they're usually considered
 to be "rules" (see response 35:58) or "rules" that apply to a "base
 form" that represents the morphemes but not the actual phonological
 form.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 00:04
39:31)  Anand:
 John, I was thinking the same thing but what about shin-.  Is sh-
 is pronounced as one consonant in Japanese???
- - - - -
Feb14/94 10:47
39:32)  John Lawler:
 Shure is.  Just as it is in English.  [s^] is often spelled "sh".
 Though in Japanese it's an allophone of /s/ before /i/, whereas in
 English it's a separate phoneme.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 18:11
39:33)  Fred:
 A friend of mine hd an interesting theory about this problem and
 I have decided to mention it on the confer.  I'll probably use it
 in my solution:  Any root not ending in a vowel is regarded as mis-
 sing a syllable from its end.  Thus, [yom] should be [yome] or
 something like it.  When conjugated for the past it should become
 [yometa], but because it is missing a syllable it becomes [yonda].
 Furthermore, the passive past should be yomerareta, but because it 
 is "missing" a syllable and because two consonants cannot be next to
 each other (except [nd]) the [er] is dropped.
- - - - -
Feb14/94 18:31
39:34)  John Lawler:
 That's interesting.  So there's a general rule that modifies "missing"
 syllables?  Does it depend on details of which syllable is "missing"?
 Or does it work on any one?
- - - - -
Feb14/94 20:17
39:35)  Margaret:
 I don't understand Fred's theory very well, maybe someone could explain it
 to me...I think this is a little more difficult for me because I'm
 studying the language and I have reached the point where sounds change
 from instinct (mostly...!!!)  Anyway, I don't understand the theory b/c
 yometa is a whole different verb (I think it is  stopped...?)  so the
 root would have to be different for different verbs, right?
    FYI:  when Japanese is written in english, they spell out sounds from
 a pattern../shi/ is "si", /tsu/ is "tu" , /chi/ is "ti", and /ji/ is 
 "zi"...just in case anyone is interested...:)....it follows the pattern
 of the rest of the alphabet...
- - - - -
Feb15/94 11:58
39:36)  Tom:
 Margaret,I have to agree with you on that.  What I'm talking about is 
 when Nihon-go is written in english how they DO spell out sounds from a
 pattern.  You also probably correct about an instinct because I noticed
 the same thing for myself.  
- - - - -
Feb15/94 20:57
39:37)  Rob:
 Besides the n is there an exception to the vowel, consonant, vowel rule in 
 Japanese?  If there isn't, then how do the pronounce some of their place
 names like Tokyo and Kyoto?
- - - - -
Feb15/94 21:40
39:38)  John Lawler:
 Good point, Rob.  Actually, they treat the /y/+vowel combination as a
 diphthong,(which it is), and the /y/ palatalizes the appropriate phonemes, so
 /hya/ comes out as [c,a], /sya/ as [s^a], and so on.  It's possible to have
 diphthongs in a syllable nucleus, though of course the syllables are counted
 as long.
- - - - -
Feb15/94 23:49
39:39)  John:
 Professor Lawler, this isn't about the Japanese assignment but I don't think
 this question warranted starting a new item.  I've just always wondered why
 PACZKI (spelling ?) is pronounced "POONSHKI" ?
- - - - -
Feb16/94 00:10
39:40)  Kevin:
 Good God.  I'd never connected the two.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 08:15
39:41)  John Lawler:
 The actual spelling (usually left out in the U.S.A.) of this Polish word
 (which means special fruit-filled donuts for the Lenten/Easter season,
 for those of you who are in the dark) is "Pa,czki".  The comma after
 "a" represents a cedilla under it; this is the way Polish marks its
 nasal vowels.   Like French and Portuguese, and unlike other Slavic
 languages, Polish has distinctively nasal vowels.
 
 These are phonemically distinct from the ordinary oral vowels, and they
 also vary in position a bit.  In particular, Polish /a,/ is farther back
 than /a/, and is often perceived as rounded.  Compare the French nasal
 vowel spelled "en", but pronounced /@,/ (@ = schwa).  You can't go
 by the vague stabs at phonetic spelling that they put on the labels at
 Krogers, though.  It's not high back rounded; they don't make Krogers
 deli managers take linguistics.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 13:38
39:42)  Mitchell:
 Excellent reply, John.  As one who lived in a Polish-speaking
 environment, I've always pronounced it pau(n)-chki.  (The n here is
 like the "n" in "singer")  My pronounciation is likely based on the way
 my grandparents pronounce it--incidentally, their Polish, I am told, is
 not exactly much of a high-brow variety; the word they used for "bath-
 room" could probably be best rendered in English with the word "out-
 house".  But anyway, Paczki, as I've traditionally known it, is filled
 each with a prune, although my sister told me that other less-
 traditionalist bakers (usually those in supermarkets) are now coming
 out with more exotic, though generally heathenous, Paczki varieties, like
 pineapple.  
- - - - -
Feb16/94 20:09
39:43)  Rob:
 I'll take pineapple over prune any day. :)
- - - - -
Feb16/94 23:02
39:44)  Lee:
 I've seen a variety of types.  A year or two ago, Katrina and I went
 to the Polish section of Detroit, Hamtramk (my spelling may be a bit off)
 and bought Paczkis from bakeries there.  There were a whole bunch of 
 varieties, although I cannot remember all of them--lots of fruits though.
- - - - -
Feb16/94 23:36
39:45)  Mitchell:
 Before this year, to me at least, it wasn't Paczki unless it had a prune
 in it.  Do note, Lee, that it's spelled Hamtramck.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 14:44
39:46)  Rob:
 Also remember that one of those Hamtramck Paczki conatins 1,000 calories.
 I don't know about the unauthentic Paczkis that you can find around here nor
 have I eaten an authetic Paczki.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:56
39:47)  Jennifer:
 Just a question... I'm from the Detroit araea (oops) but everyone I've met
 from out of state haas never heard of a paczki.  What about you guys form
 out of state?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 20:02
39:48)  Kevin:
 Never, until I moved here.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 00:15
39:49)  John Lawler:
 Depends on whether there's a large Polish presence in the area or
 not.  Probably in some areas of Chicago and Milwaukee they're well
 known.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 00:37
39:50)  Dawn:
 never heard of it
- - - - -
Mar01/94 09:00
39:51)  Stephanie:
 Only in parts of San Francisco
- - - - -
Mar01/94 16:45
39:52)  Monica:
 I'm from Michigan and very close to you Jay and I've never heard of a
 paczke?!?!
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:45
39:53)  Lee:
 Never heard of one before coming here until my fiance told me about
 them (she's half Polish).
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:49
39:54)  Monica:
 Oh I now what it is now I just did not know that that's how you spell it!
- - - - -
Mar02/94 11:16
39:55)  Mitchell:
 It's spelled "pa,czki"
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:40
39:56)  Larry:
 Hasn't made it to Maryland!
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:46
39:57)  Amy:
 Just what is a paczke?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:58
39:58)  John Lawler:
 To find out, type 'czk'  -- WITH the quotes -- really! right after the
 "Respond, Forget, or Pass:" prompt. That will retrieve all the responses that
 have that string in them, which is all of the ones where we're talking about
 pa,czki.  Otherwise, the string is unlikely to appear.  It isn't even in
 Mitchell's name. :-)
- - - - -
Mar04/94 01:18
39:59)  Larry:
 Wow, that actually works, Prof.  Lawler!  That's kinda cool...


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 40    Feb17/94 14:17     3 lines    33 responses
John Lawler                        
Midterm Exam - Question 1 (The Sea Serpent)

 This item is for discussion of Question 1 (the transcription of Cuppy's
 "The Sea Serpent") on the midterm exam.  There will be an item for
 each question.

Related items:
   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50

   33 responses
- - - - -
Feb17/94 14:58
40:1)  Dale:
 John, How do you spell the name ofthe ship in footnote 4?
 Is it Minnie or Minny?
- - - - -
Feb17/94 15:46
40:2)  John Lawler:
 It's the "Minnie".  And there's another proper name in there, too.
- - - - -
Feb19/94 08:50
40:3)  Mitchell:
 I found that other proper name, but how is it spelled?  Pikan?  (I'm
 looking at footnote #2, second line)
- - - - -
Feb19/94 13:00
40:4)  John Lawler:
 "Pekin".  It's an old Anglicization of "Peking" = Beijing.
- - - - -
Feb27/94 14:56
40:5)  Sarah:
 How do you spell the names of tow places (I'm looking at the forth line of 
 the fifty paragraph.) starting with H and E? 
- - - - -
Feb27/94 20:04
40:6)  Mitchell:
 Halifax, and 1833.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 10:56
40:7)  Kiran:
 In footnote 2, is the word kaep?m supposed to be Captain? If it is, why does
 it end with an m?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 14:06
40:8)  John Lawler:
 a) Yes, it is.
 b) What does it sound like?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 15:40
40:9)  Henry:
 In the last sentence of the first paragraph why does it say
 "feel low in their minds".  Does that mean they have low
 self esteem?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:34
40:10)  Abheek:
 In the last paragraph,could anyone please help me with its last two
 words?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:40
40:11)  Lee:
 Abheek: I think they're "them myself."
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:34
40:12)  Stephanie:
 1) can we use numerals to write out the dates
 2) Is the name in ftnt 2 Frederick. My question is actually how do
 youspell it
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:16
40:13)  Mitchell:
 I spell it Frederick.  I don't think any deviations from this spelling
 will be frowned upon (too much).
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:20
40:14)  John Lawler:
 I spell it Frederick myself, but reasonable variations won't be
 frowned on.
 
 Sure, use numerals to write out the dates.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:29
40:15)  Kevin:
 Henry, I think it's "long in their manes" with the n(g) dropped.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:40
40:16)  Kory:
 I think that it is "low in their minds again."
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:48
40:17)  Kevin:
 Hm.  You see one thing and I see another, and I can't think of a good
 way to prove who is right.  Except, of course, *something* has to be the
 answer.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:58
40:18)  Jennifer:
 In footnote 2 is it December 28th or December 20th?  My group and I are very
 confeused
- - - - -
Feb28/94 20:03
40:19)  Kevin:
 28th, because the "t" is separate from the Greek letter whose name I forget.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 20:14
40:20)  Jennifer:
 Thanks!
- - - - -
Mar01/94 09:01
40:21)  Stephanie:
 theta
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:39
40:22)  Tara:
 Kevin, I think it is 'low in their minds' just 'cause it seems to make more
 sense and also in the third paragraph, 2nd sentence 'long' is spelled 
 'lon(g)' without dropping anything.  :)  
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:42
40:23)  Larry:
 I agree, Tara.  Oh wait... we discussed this yesterday ;)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 23:06
40:24)  Kevin:
 Low in their minds makes more sense than long in their manes?  
 I know "long in their manes" is an expression, at least.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 10:46
40:25)  Dawn:
 I was thinking of "low in their minds as kind of a n expression for
 depressed of sick of theuir monotonous lifestyle so they would come to
 the surface.
 I do realize that this is kind of late seeing as we turn in our midterm
 today -- YEAH!!!
- - - - -
Mar04/94 21:48
40:26)  Jin Ho:
 Huh? Exam? what exam? we had an exam due? OH NO! (just kiddin ;)  It's not
 like I could have ever missed or overlooked the damn thing. 
- - - - -
Mar05/94 14:32
40:27)  Kevin:
 In fact, it was low in their minds.  This doesn't change the fact that I
 still think "long in their manes" makes more sense.
- - - - -
Mar05/94 15:03
40:28)  Jake:
 It couldn't've been "long" (though I accept it might be "manes").
 Low = /lo/
 long= /lau<velar nasal>/
 Case closed :-)
- - - - -
Mar05/94 16:05
40:29)  Kevin:
 Actually, the vowel in long is only one sound.  But "low in their minds"
 bugged me because it just didn't make sense to me.  It's not the first
 time I've mis-read something because it didn't feel right.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 23:52
40:30)  Tara:
 ok, maybe I am clueless, BUT Kevin, what does "long in their manes" mean??
 Thanks, I have no idea why, but I was thinking about that in the shower
 the other day.  (=
- - - - -
Mar08/94 00:01
40:31)  John Lawler:
 It's "low in their minds", folks.  Just to keep you from dying of
 curiosity.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 17:24
40:32)  Kevin:
 "Long in their manes" was an expression I've heard that means (if I 
 remember correctly) 'old and stale' in reference to a group.  This 
 article is from _How_To_Attract_The_Wombat_, if I don't miss my guess.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 23:06
40:33)  Larry:
 I think you need to take shorter showers then, Tara... 


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 41    Feb17/94 14:19     2 lines    11 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 2 (Tagalog)

 This item is for discussion of Question 2 (Tagalog) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   11 responses
- - - - -
Feb17/94 14:58
41:1)  Dale:
 I'm impressed john.  Got something from the Philippines.  Awesome.
- - - - -
Feb17/94 20:12
41:2)  Mitchell:
 I refer everybody to #5.  With the patterns I've just discovered,
 I think #5 is a typo!  If I'm correct, it should be "salatin".  May I
 have someone confirm or refute this?  Thanx
- - - - -
Feb18/94 11:48
41:3)  John Lawler:
 No, it's not a typo, Mitch.  But I can see why you came up with it.
 The reason is that numbers 1 and 2 *are* typos.
 
 Number 1 and number 2 should *both* be
    sumulat
 and not
    sumalat.
 
 That is, replace the first "a" in both 1 and 2 with a "u".
 
 That should clear up the problem with number 5.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 14:07
41:4)  Mitchell:
 Understood.  By the way, John (and everyone else--besides Calvin, who
 already knows this), please call me Mitchell.  By no coincidence, my
 father is named Mitch...actually, he's named Mieczyslaw, English
 speakers call him Mitch.  And so, to differentiate between us, I was
 referred to as Mitchell.  I know that it doesn't really matter, since
 I'm here and he's not, but it's just something that I'm used to and
 I like.  So Mitchell, if you please.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 17:29
41:5)  John Lawler:
 Mitchell, as you please.  People's names are *their* property,
 as far as I'm concerned.  They're the only thing you can count on
 having all your life (unless you give them away in marriage, which
 I've never understood :-), and I think it's only polite to acknowledge
 their denominational preferences.
- - - - -
Feb27/94 14:02
41:6)  Laurie:
 Any help on naming theses various verb aspects?  I can get imperative,
 future, 3P present, past, but from there?  how about Imperative Perfect
 for #5 -be written-, i think prestn perfect is right for #6 and the like
 future perfect for #'s 7,22?   and present gerund for #'s 8,11,23?
 thanks
- - - - -
Feb27/94 14:26
41:7)  Mitchell:
 I have found eight groups of verbs, Laurie, and named them as follows
 (Remember, this is what I have done.  You can change what I type here
 to best suit you in any way you wish.)
 Past: 2, 14, 15, 17, 25
 Future: 3, 9, 18, 27
 Imperative Active: 1, 16, 24, 29
 Imperative Passive: 5, 10, 20
 Future Passive: 7, 22
 Past Passive: 6, 12, 21, 28, 30
 Active Progressive: 4, 13, 19, 26
 Passive Progressive: 8, 11, 23
 Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 11:00
41:8)  Kiran:
 I found the exact same groups as Mitchell and named them almost the same way.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 15:31
41:9)  Dale:
 Well John, I think that some of the words are wrong.  Being half Filipino
 and my mother being full Filipino, we have found a few errors in the tagalog
 problem.  aral is to learn,  the word for to teach is turo.  So teach! would
 be tumuro.  I didn't write down what else we found, but I'll find out later.
 Get back to me on that one John.  #5 is not a typo either.:)
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:21
41:10)  John Lawler:
 Remember, these are "modified" problems.  No guarantee of correctness,
 merely plausibility. :-)
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:33
41:11)  Kevin:
 Mon Dieu, Mein Gott, etc.  That typo on 1/2 had me flummoxed.  It's a lot
 clearer now.  I suppose that's what I get for leaving early for Break.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 42    Feb17/94 14:20     2 lines    11 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 3 (Luiseno)

 This item is for discussion of Question 3 (Luiseno)  on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   11 responses
- - - - -
Feb18/94 11:49
42:1)  John Lawler:
 Typo alert!
 
 The gloss for Number 12 should be "your son" instead of "my son".
 
 Which you probably already figured out.
- - - - -
Feb24/94 18:42
42:2)  Jake:
 Is it just me, or was the solution to this problem very short.
 I mean like less than half a page.
 Did I do something wrong? Am I forgetting anything? Or am I just getting
 really good at this :-)
- - - - -
Feb25/94 13:49
42:3)  John Lawler:
 I didn't think this was particularly hard, myself.  You'll have to
 draw your own conclusions, though.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 12:00
42:4)  Tom:
 Jake,I came up with very short solutions also.  I think that it is correct
 though. Everyone in my group came up with the same answers.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:21
42:5)  Lee:
 I agree.  Number 3 was really easy. 
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:47
42:6)  Kory:
 What is meant by "morpheme classes", anybody?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 10:19
42:7)  Dale:
 I think Mitchell put it on here earlier about the past, future, future'
 passive, etc,.  Try recalling stuff in this item by typing it4em 42,:)
- - - - -
Mar01/94 19:36
42:8)  Kiran:
 Mitchell's response about past, future, etc. is for problem #2, not this one.
 I don't really understand what morpheme classes means either.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:03
42:9)  Anand:
 Morpheme classes mean what type are they.
 For example, in Luiseno we have three types of morphemes.
 I. Possessive pronoun markers
 II. Noun root
 III.  Plural marker
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:09
42:10)  Kiran:
 thanks, anand!
- - - - -
Mar02/94 23:08
42:11)  Kory:
 I thought that might be it.  I just wasn't sure.  Thanks!


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 43    Feb17/94 14:21     2 lines    36 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 4 (Quechua)

 This item is for discussion of Question 4 (Quechua) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   36 responses
- - - - -
Feb18/94 12:27
43:1)  Jake:
 I analyzed this porablem prety thouroughly. I couldn't find any
 phonemes with multiple morphemes!
 This isn't a trick question, is it, John? There _are_ some
 phonemes with etc, right?
- - - - -
Feb18/94 14:08
43:2)  Mitchell:
 I learned in section that there are allomorphs--it's just a matter of
 finding them.  Do so by making gobs and gobs of lists.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 17:30
43:3)  John Lawler:
 Don't restrict your attention to consonants.
- - - - -
Feb27/94 14:40
43:4)  Henry:
 Can anyone suggest any other technique for this problem besides
 making "gobs of lists".  The lists I made have not helped at all
 because there is not enough data for some of the consonants and vowels
 to make a complete list.  It seems like I am searching for a needle
 in a haystack here.
- - - - -
Feb27/94 15:03
43:5)  Sarah:
 I agree with Henry. I don't have a clue how to go about this problem. 
 Can anyone help?
- - - - -
Feb27/94 19:24
43:6)  John P:
 think about combinations of vowels and consonants...  hope that helps  :)
- - - - -
Feb27/94 20:07
43:7)  Mitchell:
 Is there an apostrophe above the "a" in #6 "flour"?  Could that be a clue?
- - - - -
Feb27/94 22:43
43:8)  John Lawler:
 No, that's supposed to be an ejective (glottalized) [k].
- - - - -
Feb28/94 00:19
43:9)  Henry:
 Can someone explain what John P means in response #6?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 09:26
43:10)  Calvin:
 Is it assumed that allophones only occur in homorganic groups, like the
 Spanish assignment we turned in weeks ago?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 10:36
43:11)  John Lawler:
 I'm not sure I understand what you mean, Calvin.  Do you mean that
 if there are several allophones in a single phoneme, then the
 allophones will be phonetically similar?  The answer to that is
 yes.  But as to whether they will be "homorganic"... that's one
 kind of similarity, but not the only kind.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 13:03
43:12)  Calvin:
 That was what I was trying to get at.  That is, for example, given a sound
 [q] one would automatically eliminate [h], [n], [p], etc. as allophonic
 candidates because they are dissimilar both in place and manner of
 articulation.  However, [q'] and [q^h] can be considered as possible
 allophones because they are "phonetically similar".  Am I heading in the
 right direction, prof.?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 14:05
43:13)  Calvin:
 I am reading the list of responses above and some of you are searching for
 morphemes and allomorphs.  I thought we were instructed to look for phonemes
 and allophones.  Am I mistaken?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 14:07
43:14)  John Lawler:
 Yup.  Phonemes and allophones.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:25
43:15)  Lee:
 Same deal.  This is pretty tough.  I've made numerous lists, but they
 don't seem *too* helpful in solving this.  I've determined that a few
 sounds are separate allophones, but beyond that I'm having some trouble
 Any hints?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:21
43:16)  Jill:
 i am very confused with this problem. Can regular q, q' and q with a little h
 alll be allophones?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:41
43:17)  Stephanie:
 totally lost
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:24
43:18)  John Lawler:
 What would they be allophones of, Jill?  A single phoneme or three
 separate ones?  Or maybe two phonemes?  Everything is an allophone,
 right?  But maybe it's the only allophone of the phoneme.
 
 Remember, if you can't predict the occurrence of a sound, you have
 to indicate it in the phonology; if you *can* predict its occurrence,
 you don't need to indicate it, because it's automatic.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 20:02
43:19)  Jennifer:
 help me please -- i've never felt so lost in my life!
- - - - -
Feb28/94 21:15
43:20)  Henry:
 I am trying to understand which vowels can be considered allophones.
 For example, I have convinced myself that in prob. #4 the vowel a
 does not have any allophones simply because there are no other low
 vowels in the data.  What criteria do two vowels have to meet to 
 be allophonic?  Maybe front, high, rounded-I don't know.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 22:36
43:21)  Calvin:
 t^h and t' could be allophones since the former appears before a rounded vowe
 and the latter, before an unrounded vowel.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 00:17
43:22)  John Lawler:
 But does a similar thing happen to the other aspirated/ejective
 pairs?  These things are systematic.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 11:07
43:23)  Tom:
 lost also
- - - - -
Mar01/94 17:56
43:24)  Henry:
 Prof. Lawler, after listing the conditioning environments for all of the
 verbs, I have become confused.  Originally I thought that really only
 i and e and u or o could be allophonic.  Now that it is possible that
 a can be allophonic with the other vowels, I can't decide which vowels
 are allophones.  The o and e have specific environments, but the u,i, 
 and a all seem to be elsewhere cases.  How can I decide which are
 allophones?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:10
43:25)  Anand:
 I seem to have come to the same conclusion as you, with a slight variation
 {a}, {i}, {u} are three separate phonemes.
 {i} /e/ before the sound 'q', 'qh', 'q''
     /i/ elsewhere
 {u} /o/ before the sound 'q','qh', 'q''
     /u/ elsewhere
 {a} separate phoneme
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:24
43:26)  Henry:
 Anand, that is exactly what I *think*.  But because of the circles around the
 vowel triangles shown today in lecture, I still do not see why a must be
 considered distinct from [Dunderstand why a must be a seperate phoneme from e
 or o from the given data.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:31
43:27)  Henry:
 The last sentence of 43:26 is I do not understand why a must be considered
 a seperate phoneme from e or o from the given data. 
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:39
43:28)  Anand:
 Because, {a} appears to have different conditioning environments
 than eiter {e} or {o}
 Take for example: ayqen and qan
 Using this example, I can find no conditioning environment as to why
 {a} would be an allophone of {e}.
 Thus, I'm back to square one, which is
 {a} is a separte, and distinct phoneme than {e}
 I hope that helps????
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:57
43:29)  Tara:
 Anand - 
   I'm a little confused, do you mean /e/ occurs AFTER the q 's
      and /i/ elsewhere   
 BUT then /o/ occurs after q's and in #13 after a 'th'
 ah, sigh!  help!    
   :)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 07:00
43:30)  John Lawler:
 Tara, it can happen that the presence of a significant conditioning
 variable (like post-velar consonants) anywhere next to (i.e, either
 before or after) a segment could affect it.  It might not be
 necessary to distinguish the before and after cases.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:17
43:31)  Jill:
 With all the above information are the only ones that change when you rewrite
 are the ones with -e- and -o- in them????????
- - - - -
Mar02/94 16:18
43:32)  Jennifer:
 Do these changes occur both before and after the 'q', 'qh', and 'q'', or just
 one or the other?  Also, has anyone figured out anything about t, th, t', k,
 kh, and k'?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 18:56
43:33)  Calvin:
 prof., on response 22, you say that the rules are systematic.  Are you
 suggesting that rule(s) applying to one set of allophones must also apply to
 another similar set of allophones.  If this is so, then all the t's, the q's,
 and the k's are phonemes.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 22:28
43:34)  Jake:
 Can anyone support this:
  I have differences in the transcription between phonetics and phonemics
 in #s 10, 11, 13, 16, 19, 20, and 21.
 ???
- - - - -
Mar02/94 23:56
43:35)  Henry:
 I support you Jake.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 00:04
43:36)  Tom:
 I support you also Jake.  That is what the group that I'm in got.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 44    Feb17/94 14:22     2 lines    15 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 5 (Chamorro)

 This item is for discussion of Question 5 (Chamorro) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   15 responses
- - - - -
Feb22/94 20:13
44:1)  Anand:
 John, for this problem set, there is one problem which acts as an exception
 or maybe just an unusual case - hugandu 'play'.  Do we have to explain
 why it acts unusual???
- - - - -
Feb25/94 13:53
44:2)  John Lawler:
 You can't really explain *why*.  You don't know why.  What you can
 do is:
  1) note that it behaves unusually (you've already done this)
  2) say (exactly) in what way it's unusual; i.e, what generalization
     does it contradict?
  3) offer suggestions for contextual conditioning variables that *may*
     account for its variation.  But they're only suggestions, since you
     can't test them.
- - - - -
Feb25/94 21:21
44:3)  Jake:
 I found this to be the funnest problem so far.
  What I did, and I hope this helps people, was to treat is like a math 
 problem: there were certain variables involves, I assigned all of them 
 special markers, and then I explained things in terms of the markers. I 
 found this method very brief and efficacious.
  But then again, I have a math-oriented mind. :-) 
- - - - -
Feb28/94 00:16
44:4)  Samuel:
 Prof. Lawler, as you probably know, in SPanish the "h" is a silent
 consonant.  With the word hagandu I thought of this possibility.
 If the "h" is silent, that would explain why "ga" is reduplicated
 instead of "hu".  Is this true for this language?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 06:48
44:5)  John Lawler:
 Ah, but there *are* no "silent consonants" in phonetics.  This is
 sound we're dealing with here, not orthography.
 
 However, if you look behind the cliche of "silent h", you see something
 interesting.  There *used* to be an /h/ phoneme in Spanish, but it's
 disappeared, like the [x] phone in English.  That is to say, phonetically
 [h] is prone to elision and deletion; it's a different kind of consonant
 from other kinds, and therefore may well function differently in
 morphological rules as well.
 
 Of course, this isn't Spanish we're dealing with.  But [h] is still a
 different kind of sound.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 09:14
44:6)  Calvin:
 I just said that the 2nd last syllable of the root undergoes reduplication.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 10:37
44:7)  John Lawler:
 That works nicely, doesn't it?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:28
44:8)  Lee:
 I reduplicated the first syllable began with a stop.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:29
44:9)  Mitchell:
 That what we did too, Lee.  It fits all of the data.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 16:41
44:10)  Calvin:
 This concerns the write-up:  If i say that part of a root is being
 reduplicated, does that automatically imply that the duplicate is inserted
 immediately after the part being duplicated, or do i have to explicitly
 comment on point of placement?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:20
44:11)  Mitchell:
 Saying that the duplicate is inserted after its original part should
 suffice.  It works with all the data, as I see it.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:26
44:12)  John Lawler:
 Well, with reduplication, it's a nice point which part is the
 original and which is the duplicate.  Mostly you can't tell.
 So either "before" or "after" will work, unless there's some
 phonological reason to prefer one or the other.
 
 Which there isn't here.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 15:01
44:13)  Mitchell:
 My opinion in the debate on next-to-last-syllable vs. first-stop-
 reduplicated goes to first-stop-reduplicated, because regarding next-
 to-last-syllables, what's a syllable supposed to be?  Unless you 
 specifically say that the thing in question that supposed to be
 reduplicated are the first two sounds of the next-to-last syllable,
 in which case, I guess the rule is actually quite good.  So I guess
 I should go next-to-last, huh?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 18:56
44:14)  Jennifer:
 Professor L. said that next-to-last is better because its simpler.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 07:02
44:15)  John Lawler:
 It doesn't require specification of the *kind* of consonant, only
 that it's a consonant.  The reduplication is CV-, and it does require
 some sense of what a syllable is, which in Chamorro appears to be
 about like Japanese: CV(n).  But it doesn't require a syllabic
 rule to distinguish between stops and fricatives, which is a plus.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 45    Feb17/94 14:22     2 lines    23 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 6 (Hausa)

 This item is for discussion of Question 6 (Hausa) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   23 responses
- - - - -
Feb18/94 12:28
45:1)  Jake:
 I'll be able to do this problem when I stop making all the neat sounds!
- - - - -
Feb25/94 21:02
45:2)  Jake:
 John, what's the PalPhon keystroke order to make an ejective?
 The closest I've found is: PI o
- - - - -
Feb26/94 11:00
45:3)  John Lawler:
 I think you want:
     glottal stop, raised       o-u o   
- - - - -
Feb27/94 21:45
45:4)  Tara:
 I don't know if I did this correctly, but I got 5 phenomes total.
 Does anyone else agree?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 00:07
45:5)  Dawn:
 I also got 5
 two bilabial and three velar
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:23
45:6)  Jill:
 I got the same thing as you Dawn
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:42
45:7)  Stephanie:
 me too
- - - - -
Feb28/94 20:06
45:8)  Jennifer:
 My group and I didn't find any minimal pairs or near minimal pairs -- anyone
 have any input?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 21:37
45:9)  Henry:
 Jennifer, I did not find minimal pairs.  However, there are several near
 minimal pairs.  For example, bilabial n-min pairs could be "gabas" and  
 "kar(inverted g) a" because they both appear next to an a.  Velar n-min
 pair examples are "kare" and "gabas" in which the k and g both appear
 next to an a.  Once you distinguish phonemes, n-min pairs are easy.  
- - - - -
Feb28/94 23:49
45:10)  Calvin:
 b and implosive b have very very similar conditioning environments; thus,
 they are phonemes, right? Now, intuitively, b and its labialized counterpart
 should be considered as allophones because of their contrasting environments.
 But, this labialized counterpart also has very very similar conditioning
 environment as the labialized implosive b.  Logically, the labialized
 implosive b can also be an allophone of b.  So, the big question, where do I
 draw the line in making my decisions about allophones?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 00:46
45:11)  Dawn:
 What exactly constitutes enough similarity for a near minimal pair?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 10:34
45:12)  John Lawler:
 That's like asking exactly what constitutes enough similarity for a family
 resemblance.  It's a judgement call, depending on your facility in
 prediction.
 
 If you could pick a relative out of a group portrait by family resemblance
 alone, that's enough.  If you can predict the occurrence of allophones by
 environment alone, that's enough to say they're *not* in contrast.  But if
 the environments are *too* complex, you can't predict, and that means they
 have to be considered contrasting.
 
 As to pairs, they vary from minimal to not contrastive at all.
  "pair"/"bear", "spare"/"bear", "pour"/"bear", "appear"/"bear",
  "happy"/"bear", "stop"/"bear", for instance.
 
 If we could specify "What exactly constitutes enough similarity for a near
 minimal pair?", we could automate the process, and it wouldn't be analytic at
 all.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:36
45:13)  Anand:
 Unfortunately, I got 5 bilabial consonant phonemse & 3 velar consonant ph.
 Did everyone take {b'} (b explosive) and {b} as to be allophones or
 phonemes.  I took them to be phonemes!!!!
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:49
45:14)  Anand:
 To prove my argument that {k'} (k explosive) and {k} are phonemes
 I contrasted the near-minimal pair of
 k'arse : end
 ka:re:
 kare: : dog
 karb'a:receive
 k'arse & ka:re are almost exactly alike , have two different meanings,
 and also {k} and{k'} have the same conditioning environments.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:54
45:15)  Tom:
 Annad,I believe that you are right.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:58
45:16)  Monica:
 I know that this question was touched on briefly but I am having trouble 
 with all this near min pair stuff?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 22:22
45:17)  Tara:
 Anand-  I got the b(explosive) and 'b' to be phonomes.  But those
 were the only 2 bilabial constant *stop* phonomes I have.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 23:02
45:18)  Anand:
 Tara, the same way you got the other two to be phonemes, k(explosive)
 and 'k' are also two different bilabial consonant phonemes.  The last one
 is labaialized 'g'.
 Gooood luck
- - - - -
Mar02/94 00:30
45:19)  Henry:
 It sounds like some people are studying pyrotechnics instead of
 linguistics.  I thought it was a k ejective not an explosive.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:49
45:20)  Larry:
 I got 2 bilabial phonemes:
  
 [b]
 [funny b]
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:33
45:21)  Kiran:
 I got the same thing as Larry, but now I am not sure. Also, Anand, I do
 not understand how k and k(explosive) are bilabial phonemes, when they
 aren't even bilabial consonants.  Maybe it is a typo?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 22:30
45:22)  John Lawler:
 They're not bilabial.  They're velar.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 09:32
45:23)  Leonora Sanchez:
 You're right, Henry.  k' is an ejective. [b] with the hook at the top is an
 IMplosive.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 46    Feb17/94 14:23     2 lines    27 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 7 (Modern English)

 This item is for discussion of Question 7 (Modern English) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   27 responses
- - - - -
Feb28/94 15:09
46:1)  Amy:
 My group found the two negative morphemes to be /um/ and /in/.  /in/ has
 five allomorphs but we were confused about how to write it up.  Should we
 write the allomorphs phonemically or as they are added to the root?  For
 example, two of the allomorphs we found were [ir] and [il] or [i] and [i]
 phonetically.  Should we write the allomorphs as [ir] and [il] or drop the
 r and l because that is how they occur phonetically?  I hope someone
 understands my question.  It's hard to explain on confer.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 15:15
46:2)  Leonora Sanchez:
 When you're explaining the distribution of the allomorphs, you should use the
 phonetic symbols given.  Don't be confused by the modern English spelling.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 15:30
46:3)  Amy:
 If we use the phonetic symbols to write these two allomorphs they would 
 both be [i] and in a sense the same allomorph but they're actualy not.  Help!
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:25
46:4)  Jill:
 I had a little problem with the left column. How do yoy know when to use in,
 i n(with the g attached ) or the plain i?????
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:44
46:5)  Stephanie:
 I only got four allomorphs.
   [in-]
   [il-]
   [ir-]
   [im-]
 what am i missing
 also, how many are there for [un-]
 I got only one.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:29
46:6)  John Lawler:
 Amy, why do you say the two /i-/ forms in "irrelevant" and "illiterate"
 aren't "the same"?  Because of the spelling?  That's not at issue;
 you're dealing with sounds here.  Is there *really* a double /r/ or a 
 double /l/ there?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:39
46:7)  Kevin:
 SAM, you're missing [in(g)-] from #2.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 09:04
46:8)  Stephanie:
 many thanks
- - - - -
Mar01/94 10:37
46:9)  Jill:
 I got the four allomorphs but my question was how do you know when to use 
 whwhat
- - - - -
Mar01/94 16:24
46:10)  Calvin:
 before a vowel, semivowel, or liquid, us the lax i negative morpheme; before
 all other consonants (am i being too general here?) us the lax i followed by
 a nasal that's homorganic with the consonant.  Hope this helps. before a
 semivowel or liquid, use the lax i negative morpheme; before other consonants
 and vowels use the lax i followed by a nasal that's homorganic with the
 consonant.  As for the vowel, i'm not quite sure about the rule.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 16:44
46:11)  Calvin:
 guys, ignore the first sentence of response 10. I corrected it but it didn't
 disappear as i had hoped.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 19:53
46:12)  Kiran:
 I also do not understand the rule about the vowel in #6. Can anybody help?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:25
46:13)  Lucas:
 In numbers 3 and 4 would a rule saying "double the initial consonant" for
 particular vowels work?  Or should we specify "l" and "r"?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 22:01
46:14)  Calvin:
 when you pronounce illiterate and irreverent, you don't hear a double
 consonant at all in either case.  It's all about what you hear and not about
 what your eyes see in the spelling.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:54
46:15)  Larry:
 It is about spelling, since we're dealing with morphemes... isn't it?
 The allomorphs are as Stephanie stated earlier I believe.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 15:01
46:16)  Calvin:
 if i'm correct, you determine the morphemic spelling AFTER you identified the
 sound
- - - - -
Mar02/94 16:48
46:17)  Lee:
 What's a liquid (as in Calvin's response)?  Do we have another word for it?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 16:57
46:18)  Calvin:
 a liquid is just a   
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:00
46:19)  Calvin:
 continuing for response 18 :-O, a liquid is just a lateral resonant like [l].
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:31
46:20)  John Lawler:
 Actually, there's a technical meaning of "liquid" -- in fact, several of
 them, which I haven't burdened you with up till now.  It's sort of a cover
 term for sounds that aren't exactly vowels but have some vowel-like
 properties -- and aren't nasals or semivowels.  In English, /l/ and /r/ are
 both pretty liquid.  You could also call them resonants, though that term
 usually includes nasals as well.
 
 But /l/ and /r/ are very similar to each other, as well, and so it makes
 sense that -- like the front and back vowels in a different problem -- the
 same thing might happen to both of them.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:36
46:21)  Kiran:
 I still haven't gotten an answer about the rule for #6. How do we know to
 use in- before a vowel.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:43
46:22)  Calvin:
 K.M., this is the general rule that I've derived:  before a liquid or
 semivowel attach the lax i prefix; elsewhere, attach the lax i followed by n
 or a homorganic nasal when the following sound is a consonant.  It's rather
 awkward...
- - - - -
Mar02/94 20:04
46:23)  Kiran:
 The root for #6 begins with a vowel (schwa). From my understanding, schwa is 
 a vowel, not a semivowel, so it doesn't fall into the lax i prefix category.
 It is also not homorganic with it's prefix (in-), therefore it doesn't fit 
 there either.  Is there a separate rule that says vowels are preceded by in-?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 20:30
46:24)  Calvin:
 When i said semivowel, i was referring to the beginning r in #4. I think you
 may be right that there is separate rule for beginning vowels in a root. That
 was accomodated for in my general rule above.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 21:13
46:25)  Kiran:
 thanks, Calvin.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 22:31
46:26)  John Lawler:
 There has to be an elsewhere case, no?
- - - - -
Mar05/94 14:34
46:27)  Kevin:
 No, but there probably is one.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 47    Feb17/94 14:24     2 lines    12 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 8 (Old English)

 This item is for discussion of Question 8 (Old English) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   12 responses
- - - - -
Feb22/94 14:22
47:1)  John P:
 regarding the phoneme comparison in modern english (which is part of the 
 old english question), am i right in assuming that there is no [x] in 
 modern english?
- - - - -
Feb22/94 19:53
47:2)  John Lawler:
 Except in borrowings like "chutzpeh" or "Chanukkah" or "Khrushchev"
 or "achtung", no, it doesn't exist in English.
- - - - -
Feb26/94 21:28
47:3)  Jake:
 Did anyone else get the following answer for part Ia:
 
 "There is no evidance to support that [f] and [v] are allophonic; so, it 
 can only be assumed that they are seperate phonemes."
 
 I'd really really like to say that they _are_ allophones, but I can't 
 make a really good generalization out of the data that we are given.
  On the other hand, part Ib & c are really easy: I just eyeballed those :-)
 
- - - - -
Feb28/94 00:08
47:4)  Dawn:
 My results were the same for f/v.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:40
47:5)  Kevin:
 Mine too.  I'm pretty sure they're allophones, but it can't be proven (by
 me).
- - - - -
Feb28/94 20:09
47:6)  Jennifer:
 Did n any other groups find that the phonemic status of the soulnd oops 
 sounds in modern english si that they can occur anywhere in a word basically.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 19:29
47:7)  Anand:
 I have to disagree.  I think {f} and {v} are two different phonemes.
 Basic hypothesis:  If you can't find any evidence -> phonemes
 Thus, like you, Jake I found no evidence, and no form of conditioning 
 environments.
 For example, I contrasted
 'to offer' and 'ovens' as a near-minimal pair
- - - - -
Mar01/94 19:57
47:8)  Kiran:
 I understand parts a and c of part I, but I am having a little trouble with
 b.  Is the rule [h] at the beginning and [x] elsewhere, or am I totally off? 
 Also my group is having trouble coming up with minimal pairs in modern
 english for h and x.Help!!!
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:28
47:9)  Henry:
 Kiran, you are right about part b.  Secondly, there is no x in
 modern english I think.  So there are no mininimal pairs.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:27
47:10)  Lucas:
 I still don't know what to think about f/v.  Maybe the fact that there is
 so much confusion should tell me that they are sepearate phonemes.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:55
47:11)  Larry:
 Lucas (and everyone), try "fan" vs. "van".  Same environment, different 
 consonants.... ----->  SEPARATE PHONEMES
- - - - -
Mar02/94 16:56
47:12)  Lee:
 Here's my take on this problem:
   I think I'll agree with Anand, Jake, et al in that f/v are separate 
   phonemes (by the way Larry, the f/v controversy is in Old English, 
   not Modern English where they are definitely separate phonemes)
 - I agree with Kiran on h/x
 - c) is obvious too as Jake said.  If you can't get it just make lists
   of the conditioning environments for n and 'eng' and it should be 
   obvious


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 48    Feb17/94 14:25     3 lines    24 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 9 (Aztec)

 This it
 This item is for discussion of Question 9 (Aztec) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   24 responses
- - - - -
Feb18/94 11:45
48:1)  John Lawler:
 Typo on the Aztec problem ... Number 31 'pig', should be
   piso<lambda>
 and not
   pico<lambda>.
 
 That is, put an "s" instead of a "c" in number 31.
 You heard it here first.
- - - - -
Feb18/94 14:09
48:2)  Mitchell:
 Actually, I heard it in section first.  But thanks for putting it on
 Confer.
- - - - -
Feb22/94 14:29
48:3)  John P:
 regarding #75, imiks^iwan, this is the only piece of data where a noun 
 which seems like it would take the plural -me? is possessed and thus takes 
 -wan.  is it ok to generalize that all possessed plurals involve some 
 form of -wan?  (since the reduplication-pluralized words also take -wan 
 when possessed.)
- - - - -
Feb25/94 14:01
48:4)  John Lawler:
 That seems reasonable.  Though you don't really know whether 'foot' would
 take a -me? plural or not, since there's no data.  It's a countable
 body part, not an animal, or a person, or a relation, or an alienable
 possession.  And of course, if you note 54 and 81, you'll see that
 it's possible to take several different kinds of plural (we don't know
 what the conditioning variables, if any, would be; we just have to
 classify the facts).
- - - - -
Feb26/94 14:08
48:5)  Henry:
 I am confused about #66 and #67.  Why is it that they are followed by
 a ? for plural but have no reduplication like the others.  I have not yet 
 found any noun class significance to the reduplication-? plural form
 thinking that any type of plural can use this form instead for whatever
 reason. But #66 and #67 have me thinking otherwise.  Any suggestions?
- - - - -
Feb26/94 15:46
48:6)  John Lawler:
 Could it be another class?
- - - - -
Feb27/94 15:12
48:7)  Sarah:
 Isn't the gloss for #99 "W used to count" instead of "We use 
- - - - -
Feb27/94 19:58
48:8)  John Lawler:
 Right you are, Sarah.  The verb is "count" instead of "live".
- - - - -
Feb27/94 20:44
48:9)  Abheek:
 Do we need to associate a semantic meaning with each noun class?
 I know it is not specified in the directions, but some of the classes
 have similar nouns?
- - - - -
Feb27/94 22:45
48:10)  John Lawler:
 That's always a possibility, isn't it?
- - - - -
Feb27/94 23:29
48:11)  Nicholas:
 #54/#81 and #62/#69 have the same gloss but different morphemes... Is 
 that normal?...
- - - - -
Feb28/94 00:16
48:12)  Henry:
 I noticed that every noun that ends with tin had to do with people of
 some kind or something family-oriented (house).  So I created a noun 
 class.  But then I looked at #73 K(w)awtin (eagles) and got scared.
 I do not understand this.  
- - - - -
Feb28/94 06:55
48:13)  John Lawler:
 What's the plural of "fish" in English?
 Or how about the membership of the various Bantu noun classes? Is it
 always unique?  Is it always totally determined by semantics?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 21:46
48:14)  Henry:
 Something very unusual.  #106 (cokas) seems to be missing a k that is
 normally there for past and future tenses.  It looks like it should
 be cokask.  A typo?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 14:53
48:15)  Mitchell:
 Probably not a typo, Henry.  Look at #102.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 17:46
48:16)  Henry:
 Thanks, Mitchell.  By the way, what rule did you use to account for this?
 I said that the k tense marker is deleted if it would otherwise follow 
 a consonant to end a verb "formation" as I call #83-#106.  Any other names
 for these things?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 21:32
48:17)  Lucas:
 Are there contractions in these problems (i.e. numbers 77 and 79 or am
 I way off?  Also there are general "feelings" to the different noun groups
 but they are not concrete.  Can we still classify them as certain classes?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 22:38
48:18)  Tara:
 I thought that the reason #102 and #106 were missing a "k" is because
 they are both singular in person, just like in the past tense singular
 verbs' only morpheme is the 'o'(root)'k', while plural person verbs
 end in '-ke?'  Just so ya know that question mark is supposed to be
 a glottal stop.  Anyway, the other tenses also have variations
 depending on singular or plural persons.  Did you account for these
 variations differently?
- - - - -
Mar01/94 22:57
48:19)  Anand:
 Can anyoune please tell me what kind of affixes are the plural pronoun
 markers?????
- - - - -
Mar02/94 11:17
48:20)  Jill:
 All plural forms such as we you and they end in a glottal stop.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:04
48:21)  Lee:
 Tara, other too--Your missing 'k' discussion confused me from the
 solution I already had for the verb section of Aztec.  My advice:
 don't think of a verb marker as just prefixing or as just suffixing;
 many (if not most) are both.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:43
48:22)  Kiran:
 Lucas, I said that the possessive morphemes for your (sg) and someone's
 drop the vowel before a root that begins with a vowel.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 21:08
48:23)  Samuel:
 Prof. Lawler, in 48:13 you stated that the noun clases are not
 only determined semantically.  Can I have some noun classes determined
 by semantics and others determined by environments for the plural affix?
 Ex. plurals formed w/ ? - both end in vowels
     plurals formed w/ reduplication-? - all end in vowels
     plurals formed w/ tin - related to family (except eagles, maybe house)
     plurals formed w/ wan - possesed nouns.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 22:33
48:24)  John Lawler:
 Well.... notice that the first two cases don't distinguish from one another.
 If a noun ends in a vowel, which class is it going to be in?  The last two
 seem clear enough.  But you need more to distinguish the first two.  You
 may simply be reduced to listing the ones that are in the first and second;
 but if you can characterize them, so much the better.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 49    Feb17/94 14:26     2 lines     5 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Question 10 (Icelandic)

 This item is for discussion of Question 10 (Icelandic) on the midterm
 exam.  There will be an item for each question.

    5 responses
- - - - -
Feb28/94 17:01
49:1)  Scott:
 unrelated, but, I've just returned from break and need a group to meet with,
 to discuss the midterm, prefferably meeting after 6 p.m.  Anyone?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 12:00
49:2)  Karen :
 Scott,
 If you get this, you can meet us a t Marley at 1:15 taday, in the front
 lounge area. Karen
- - - - -
Mar02/94 15:24
49:3)  Calvin:
 what type of vowels are u and o (with slash) ?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:06
49:4)  Lee:
 Calvin: o (with a slash) is o umlaut, and is a tense mid front rounded
         u is a tense high back rounded vowel
  [I hope that's what you were asking for]
- - - - -
Mar02/94 18:08
49:5)  Calvin:
 got it, thanks.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 50    Feb17/94 14:28     3 lines    18 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=40
Midterm Exam - Extra Credit Problem 11 (Luiseno)

 This item is for discussion of the Extra-Credit problem on the midterm
 exam, Number 11 (Luiseno).  There is already an item for each of
 the other problems.

   18 responses
- - - - -
Feb24/94 11:37
50:1)  Henry:
 I am having trouble understanding questions F1, F2, and G.
 For question F1, I think there are three classes of possessives.
 If only two classes exist, then question F2 makes me think that
 List IIIa is not a distinct class.  For question G my answer so
 far says that List IV is distintive in the same way List IIIa
 is distinct from Lists IIIb and IIIc.  So I do not know how to
 talk about a basis of distinction when such a similarity exists.
 I am almost sure this basis has to do with the many different noun
 classes, but my confusion on List III is only confounded by List IV.
- - - - -
Feb25/94 14:07
50:2)  John Lawler:
 Yes, there are three classes in F1.  Sorry about that.
 
 As for G, you're correct, the form is the same as IIIa.  So,
 what does IIIa have in common with IV, semantically?  You should
 be able to put the common variety of meanings together.
 
 In fact, F1, F2, and G can all be answered together.  They could
 be restated as:
    If IV is like IIIa, what is the semantic basis for the differences
    in the possessive forms among the three classes in III?
 
 Does that help?
- - - - -
Feb25/94 17:09
50:3)  Henry:
 I think that I understand now.  I guess I have to use my imagination
 at least one more time.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:27
50:4)  Jill:
 Was it me or was the extra credit easier than many of the other problems?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 18:48
50:5)  Stephanie:
 JILL, I AGREE
 sorry, caps lock
 one question: #c1 od list III. I think the glottal stop is ther cuz
 the root starts with a vowel. can i make this assumption, or should
 i just say that it is there.
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:25
50:6)  Mitchell:
 Another question: on list III, a4; shouldn't it be "nokic" instead?
- - - - -
Feb28/94 19:46
50:7)  Kevin:
 No, Mitchell, it shouldn't be.
  
 Same principle as all the rest.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 10:39
50:8)  Jill:
 Stephanie-that is exactly what I said regarding the glottal stop in list III!
- - - - -
Mar01/94 14:55
50:9)  Mitchell:
 Regarding house, I think it should be kic^a, because--as mentioned in
 lecture--List III, a4, following the formation of the "my" morpheme
 involves adding "no" to the beginning and deleting thefinal consonant
 and all subsequent sounds.  kic^a fits in nicely with this rule.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 19:34
50:10)  Zachary:
 Thanks for all the help.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 22:44
50:11)  Tara:
 Could someone write the condensed question for F1,2 and G?  I only
 got part of it, so this would really help. :)  Thanks!
- - - - -
Mar02/94 00:34
50:12)  Henry:
 See response #50:2
- - - - -
Mar02/94 07:05
50:13)  John Lawler:
 You can see response 50:2 by saying "50 only" at the "Respond, Forget, or
 Pass:" prompt.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:09
50:14)  Lee:
 John, you mean "2 only" at the Respond, Forget or Pass Prompt.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:33
50:15)  John Lawler:
 Duhh.....  Sorry.  It was too early this morning.  Thanks for the
 correction, Lee :-)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:46
50:16)  Kiran:
 If we have already typed up a separate answer for F1, F2 and G, do we need
 to change it?
- - - - -
Mar02/94 22:27
50:17)  Jake:
 I'd say no. At least, I'm not :-)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 22:34
50:18)  John Lawler:
 Re:46 -- No, you don't, Kiran.  Though you might want to review it in the
 light of this discussion.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 51    Mar01/94 16:22     4 lines    27 responses
Dawn                     
help???

 This is probably very wrong, but I wanted to comment on an item that
 seems to have died but I didn't know how.  Then I was going to go to
 confer help, but I couldn't do that without getting all of item 2, so
 I started this.

   27 responses
- - - - -
Mar01/94 16:30
51:1)  Dawn:
 Okay, first how do you respond to an item that has died?
 Second, how do I get to help and ask a question?
 Third, I have kind of a regionalism response.
 I was standing is this building yesterday, with a group of friends and
 I noticed that there was someone outside who couldn't get the door open 
 to come inside so I said, "that person needs in"
 My friend then told me that the only people she'd ever heard phrase things
 this way were from Ohio (as am I).
 Does anyone else use this particular sentance structure? i.e.My hair needs 
 combed.
 Please freeze this item beacause I realize it has no particular use or 
 relevance :)
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:49
51:2)  Tom:
 I'm from Michigan and I also find myself using the same sentence
 structure.  But I'm about as far south as you can go without reaching
 Ohio.  Well actually about 12 miles from the border.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 07:08
51:3)  John Lawler:
 You say "HOW" to get to the help item.
 
 You can get out of seeing all the responses on an item by pressing
 Control-C.
 
 To respond to any item without seeing all the responses, say
   R # NOR (where "#" is the item number)
 This puts you at the "Respond, Forget, or Pass:" prompt, like "HOW",
 and you can then respond as usual.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:12
51:4)  Lee:
 I think this item deserves a chance to live so...
   Dawn: I've heard and used "I need in" but nothing else really
            in that sentence structure.  (I'm from Maryland)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:34
51:5)  John Lawler:
 Yeah, you guys have been real serious lately.  Good thing the exam
 comes in tomorrow :-)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 20:37
51:6)  Lida:
 I'm from the middle of the thumb of Michigan, and I 
 phrase things this way as do many of my friends from that area.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 10:50
51:7)  Dawn:
 thanks I was very surprised when my friend (from NOIV,MI sorry-novi-) said
 that she'd never heard it before. except from ohioans.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 14:51
51:8)  Jennifer:
 never heard things phrased this way and i'm from michigan.
- - - - -
Mar03/94 17:49
51:9)  Mitchell:
 That phrasing is alien to me, Dawn.  (I'm from Michigan--Grand Rapids,
 to be exact.)
- - - - -
Mar04/94 01:23
51:10)  Larry:
 Again... hasn't made it to my part of Maryland.
- - - - -
Mar05/94 14:36
51:11)  Kevin:
 It's okay by me, Dawn, and I'm from Oregon by way of Hawaii.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 22:09
51:12)  Fred:
 I haven't heard it either.  I'm from Flint
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:24
51:13)  Amy:
 WEll...I've heard and used "need in" but none of the other possiblities...I'm
 from GR, Michigan as well...and have travelled and talked to a great deal of
 people from all over the place...and I've NEVER ehard that phrase from anyone
 else. Hrm...
- - - - -
Mar10/94 16:01
51:14)  Zachary:
 I have friends in Grand Rapids.  Where in Grand Rapids do you live?
- - - - -
Mar12/94 17:02
51:15)  Amy:
 Near Ada...or on the southeast side. Where dio they live is probably a
 better question. :) What school did they go to?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 01:43
51:16)  Kory:
 Amy, did you go to Forest Hills Central?  When I was a senior in
 high school, I'm from Greenville, I played in the district 
 basketball tournament there against Ottawa Hills.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 14:54
51:17)  Joe:
 I live in Ada!  Or, rather, my parents do.  However, I went to high school
 at Forest Hills Central, class of '91.  Where do you live, Amy?
- - - - -
Mar14/94 18:09
51:18)  Amy:
 I live right across from the new Forrest Hills Public School Pool thing.
 There is a street there...with a Forest Hills sign in front of it...thats my
 house. I did not go to FHC however...I went to Catholic Central...but, don't
 hold it against me ok? :)
- - - - -
Mar15/94 11:52
51:19)  Joe:
 Okay, I won't.  I live(d) about 1 and 1/2 miles away from you, towards
 downtown Ada.  What a place that is, huh?
- - - - -
Mar15/94 12:30
51:20)  Mitchell:
 I live on Grand Rapids' west side.  As you might guess, I went to West
 Catholic (Class of '92).
- - - - -
Mar15/94 17:31
51:21)  Amy:
 Yeah...downtown ada...quite a place...actually, I really like the area around
 the bridge. But, I digress...sorry for the item drift everyone.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 22:27
51:22)  Tom:
 I live in FlatRock the name says it all!
- - - - -
Mar16/94 09:03
51:23)  Stephanie:
 Belmont, California. Hey...wasnt Flat Rock in a ford commercial???
- - - - -
Mar16/94 11:25
51:24)  Joe:
 Yeah, Amy, the bridge is nice.  It's fun to jump off of (if I'm thinking of
 the right bridge).  I think there used to be a rope swing there, but it
 u is gone now.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 12:26
51:25)  Tom:
 S.A.M.,well actually it was the Mazda commercial.  But yes that is Flat Rock
 in the commercial except for a couple shots from surrounding towns.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 14:57
51:26)  Stephanie:
 Ford...Mazda...same difference....well, not really, but anyway, I thought
 I recognized the mane
 That should say name (giggle)
- - - - -
Mar17/94 15:13
51:27)  Scott:
 well you are correct in the sense that Ford owns 60+ percent of Mazda.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 52    Mar01/94 16:39    17 lines    82 responses
Jimi Lee Haswell                   
Confer U Pilot Impressions

 Howdy! I've entered this item to get your impressions, experiences, and
 feedback on some of the following:
    - how was/is it to use Confer U? Is this your first time using
         confer?
    - if you used Confer II on MTS before, what do you think about
         "the transition". easier? harder? not much difference? uniqnames
         vs. MTS userIDs? editors? 
    - what about the handout...did it help? 
    - how do you like the editors?
    - what do you think about having a computer conference for a class?
  
 Those are just some ideas. Feel free to comment on other things as well.
 Do you think the conference affects or will affect your performance in
 the class? in your homework/assignments? your relationship with other
 classmates or the professor?
  
 Thanks!

Related items:
   54

   82 responses
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:08
52:1)  Kiran:
 I was very afraid of confer when we first started this class because I have a
 huge computer phobia, and I thought it would be very difficult.  BUT, it was
 definitely very helpful for the homework problems and for asking questions
 about confusing things in lecture.  Overall, I think it was a very good idea
 to have confer for this class and I think many other classes could benefit
 from it.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 20:53
52:2)  Tom:
 I agree with Kiran.  The confer program has been very benificial so far. I
 also was very afraid of using a computer when the semester started. That of
 course is because I'm *challenged* when itt comes to computer jargon.  But
 this class has also given me a chance to absorb other interesting facts that
 have appeared on confer.
- - - - -
Mar01/94 22:03
52:3)  Monica:
 I was so confused when this entire confer thing started and i hated it but
 now I am so glad I have it to help me out on the homework.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 10:07
52:4)  Nicholas:
 This conference has been a great help for me. I think it is very usefull 
 for this type of class and it has helped for solving the many problems 
 sets we've had.  I much prefer this version of confer than the one on 
 MTS. The editors on unix really make a worlds difference.
 I hope this gets implemented in other classes...
 :)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 11:19
52:5)  Jill:
 I totally hated confer at the begining and had alot of problems with it, now
 I find it very useful in homework problems,etc.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 11:23
52:6)  Mitchell:
 Confer has been invaluable for this class--both for homework and for
 extracirricular discussions.  I wish all my classes had computer conferences
 It would be a great boon!
- - - - -
Mar02/94 13:40
52:7)  Karen :
 As a graduating senior and potential professor in 5 years,
 I can say that without a doubt I will implement a confer discussion
 for my students----this has been invaluable. 
- - - - -
Mar02/94 14:06
52:8)  Larry:
 So far the key word is invaluable.  I agree.  Every class I have had 
 confer in has benefitted tremendously.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 14:44
52:9)  John P:
 i am ambivalent about the conference.  while it is a good way to make the
 class feel smaller, to distribute information like typos, and to discuss 
 solution, i also think that it's possible to just slide through 
 this class by just getting most of the solutions off of confer, which 
 isn't cool, a mon avis.  also, the time commitment is sometimes 
 frustrating... the time it takes to read through the confer every day 
 does add up.  then again, i like to figure out things on my own at my own 
 pace, so group work isn't really my favorite method.  sorry to be the 
 dissenting opinion.
 
 the program itself i think is fine, but it would be cool if you had a 
 more pine-like menus at the bottom (with the cool keystroke lists).  that 
 way, it would be a *little* more user friendly for novices.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 15:47
52:10)  Samuel:
 Confer has definitely been helpful in this class.  Sometimes is just
 so hard to find solutions for problems all by yourself, and a single
 idea from one of your classmates helps a lot.  Confer is a great 
 communication tool, however it is extreamly time consuming, specially 
 because you have to take time to go into a lab and actually read over
 all  the new stuff in the confer.  Other than that, it has been a 
 very helpful tool.  In fact, it will be great to apply this confer 
 stuff to classes like sociology and poli sci were there is lots
 of discussion going on.  I'm sure some classes use it, but my
 sociology class doesn't and I really think it will help us.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 16:27
52:11)  Jennifer:
 I was also really afraid of the confer at the beginning of this class, but I
 feel that it really helped me in understanding the ideas presented in class.
 I think it would be great for many classes, especially ones that include a 
 lot of discussion.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:16
52:12)  Lee:
 I like it.  It has helped a lot in terms of needing a little push
 in the right direction on some of the problems.  It is a bit too
 time consuming though--especially trying to sign on every day.  But
 I still think its worthwhile.  It also has given me a chance you 
 don'
 t (oops) usually get in other classes, that is to get to know 
 lots of people pretty well without having to seek them out, trade
 phone numbers, etc.
   Yeah Confer  (boy, I sure sound like a geek now!)
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:31
52:13)  Jessie:
 It's helped me out a lot on the problems, and has clarified
 a lot of things for me, but signing on 5x a week is a little 
 ridiculous if you ask me.  Maybe 2 or 3x is a little more
 feasable.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 17:45
52:14)  John Lawler:
 In my experience, a lot depends on the size of the class, and a lot of
 imponderables like who's in the class.  I can say that this is a pretty
 successful class conference, by comparison with some I've had.  Last term it
 wasn't nearly as successful, imho.
 
 What John says is true, too, though. To refresh yourselves about what John
 said, say "9 only" at the prompt.  This is a problem that goes along with the
 degree of valuable discussion -- and sharing information -- we do here.  Now,
 as a teacher, I usually try to get people to figure things out for
 themselves, on the grounds that they'll remember and understand it a whole
 lot better that way, so I sympathize with John's position.
 
 As a teacher who has to assign grades, too, this concerns me a bit. I'd much
 rather not assign grades, but it does seem to be a fairly necessary
 motivating factor in many cases.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 19:54
52:15)  Kiran:
 The other problem that we might run into if all classes started using confer
 is that we would spend all day at the computer.  It is hard enough for me
 to find a free computer at the computing sites now.  If everyone needed to
 confer and write papers, the sites would be even more packed.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 20:48
52:16)  Lida:
 I agree with Kiran above, but this confer has helped me
 understand many of the concepts in the class.  It has also added 
 a bit of culture to my life with all of the discussions
 not related to linguistics.  However, getting started 
 was frustrating for me and many other people.  Often, people
 at different computing sites don't know how to help on this type of thing.
 Being basicallycomputer illiterate, obviously, it took longer 
 for me than it should have to get started.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 21:23
52:17)  Rob:
 So far I've liked the Confer system.  It does a ton of help with the
 homework, gives non serious discusions to break the monotony of being on the
 Confer, and is something to do for 15 minutes.  Confer gets me more motivated
 for this class.  I hope to have more Confer classes in the future.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 23:27
52:18)  Kory:
 Confer has been great for this course.  Without other resources to
 refer to(i.e. books, coursepacks, etc.) it helps a great deal with
 assignments.  That one, small missing idea can usually be found here.
- - - - -
Mar02/94 23:28
52:19)  Zachary:
 I think confer is instrumental in learning to think analytically 
 about linguistics, and vital in learning more about the interests
 of the other students in the class.  I must say that the sharing
 of information on this conference has been very generous and 
 extremely helpful.  Thanks to everyone again!
- - - - -
Mar03/94 10:54
52:20)  Dawn:
 I like it for much the same reason that we had group midterms.
 I sat at home over break and hasshed out my explanations for the problems, 
 not having any idea that there was another way to do it.  My mind was in o
 ne track.  discussion helps us all see the different ways to solve these
 problems that maybe we hadn't thought of and then decide for ourselves the
 most correct solution.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 01:34
52:21)  Larry:
 I agree with about everything said-- pro's and con's.  I think it should
 definitely continue into next term, but it needs some fine tuning, as
 I'm sure is expected.  The time commitment *is* tough and should probably
 be changed to 3x per week.  If someone wants to sign on more, it can only
 improve their grade, but I'm against requiring it 5x per week.  It is also
 sometimes confusing to see too many perspectivesif you know what I mean.
 As a whole, the conference is an integral part of this course.  My personal
 suggestion is to changethe course to 4 credits, rather than 3.  Considering
 class time is 4 hrs in itself (usually a tell-tale sign of the number of
 credit hours), and the time required to go to a computing center, signon,
 read the responses, and walk home is worth something.  I think of the 
 conference almost as a 5x-a-week discussion section.  I don't know if this
 is feasible, but it is a suggestion. How about it, Prof.  Lawler????
- - - - -
Mar04/94 07:50
52:22)  John Lawler:
 That's an interesting suggestion, Larry.  It's not up to me how
 many credits the course gets, but I agree it's reasonable to try to
 get 4 instead of 3 for this course.  I'll speak to our chair about it.
 
 One possible complication is that I won't be teaching this forever;
 next year I teach it Fall and Pam Beddor (a far better teacher than
 I am) will do it Winter, and then we'll trade off, once a year each.
 She may well not use Confer, though her course is pretty rigorous
 anyway.
 
 In any event, there is *no* chance that such a change could be made
 for this term, just to keep you from false expectations.  Curricular
 changes *never* apply to people involved in the situation when it's
 decided.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 12:51
52:23)  Alana:
 I just wanted to put my two cents worth in too.  I like the confer.  To be
 honest I thought that signing on 5x a week was a hassle, but now I 
 occasionally signon more.  I also think that this would be a good candidate
 to be moved up to a 4 credit class.  I put in as much work and time in this
 class as I do in my 4 credit classes (if not more).
- - - - -
Mar04/94 13:19
52:24)  Larry:
 "The servants are revolting!"
- - - - -
Mar04/94 14:27
52:25)  Lee:
 I'll join in--this class definitely makes you work 4 credits worth.  Between
 the almost-daily assignments, confer, and in class time, I feel we're being
 gipped by UM.  Oh well.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 14:27
52:26)  Joe:
 Prof. Lawler, courses have been offered like this before, wherein one
 receives 4 credits for 3 hours of class per week, plus a bunch of confer
 signons.  Case in poihnt:  I took Psychology 185(?) with Professor Morris,
 and he conducted class like this.  This class has been discontinued I believe
 but the idea has gone into effect before. 
- - - - -
Mar04/94 20:08
52:27)  John Lawler:
 Oh, sure, but -- as I said -- it's not up the professor to decide
 how many credits a course is offerred for.  That's decided by the
 Department and by the College, and it's generally hard to change.
 
 I'll look into it.  I will take it for granted that you all agree
 you should be getting 4 credits; and I agree, too.
- - - - -
Mar04/94 21:39
52:28)  Mitchell:
 I appreciate the outcry by everyone with regards to changing this
 course to one with 4 credits.  Personally, signing on has been far
 from a nuisance for me.  I have a computer in my room with a modem
 (I bought it hoping it would one day come in handy for things like this)
 so signing on is actually a convenience.  (If I sound like I'm
 gloating, I don't mean to gloat.  I apologize if any feelings are hurt.)
- - - - -
Mar05/94 06:28
52:29)  Geoffrey:
 what? huh?  I think that I'm the only person that does'nt like this.  I am
 literal literally afraid of computers, I would'nt even do e-mail untill I got
 myself a caen account.  I still get confused all the time, and I feel like
 those that are better at communicating with computers than me are also doing
 better at the work because they are getting more out of confer than me.  I'm
 still doing well, but half of our work is on this screen at any given time,
 and I wasn't on this for about four weeks because I had'nt learned what the
 heck to do to use this dumb thing.  I also think that this thing should be
 updated into a better format that would have lots of neat little menus for
 people like me that get scared when there are no commands in front of them. 
 Other than that, no, I've had no problems at all.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 16:36
52:30)  Katrina:
 The thing about this confer is that the topic always strays to 
 things not rrelated to  the class and that takes up at least 50%
 of this conference.  All this wasted talk tends to become time
 consuming.   Other than that I think that it is benificial--
 especially before a homework is due.
- - - - -
Mar06/94 21:10
52:31)  Larry:
 I like wasted talk.  It gives the conference some character ;)
- - - - -
Mar07/94 08:59
52:32)  Stephanie:
 Item drift is sometimes annoying, especially if it is a race between
 two people. But I think it is good that the old items have stayed
 somewhat alive.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 16:05
52:33)  Jill:
 I do feel we spend a lot of time on this confer and much of it is a waste if
 it has nothing to do with our class assignments and discussions.  I do feel
 that I spend just as much time on this class as my 4 credit classes. o not
 enjoy wasted talk.
- - - - -
Mar07/94 18:17
52:34)  Kevin:
 Item drift is almost impossible to avoid.  How many times do conversations
 between two people get sidetracked down various alleys before coming back
 to where they were intending to go?  Confer is just like that, except 
 with far more people.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 16:13
52:35)  Lisa:
 I like confer allright, but I would like it more if I could get on and
 respond from my housemate's computer.  Call me lazy.  But it definitely
 is helpful once you become disciplined to doing it every day.  The only
 bad part is I am almost always tempted to skip a lot because I know 
 a lot of it is conversational bullshit.  In moderation, it makes confer
 interesting and worthwhile.  But it does get out of hand.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 17:11
52:36)  John Lawler:
 Lisa, is there some reason why you can't get on from your housemate's
 computer?  If s/he has a computer and a modem, there's free software
 you can use and it's really a snap to do.  Assuming it's all right with
 him/her.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 22:28
52:37)  Amy:
 WEll...this thing has helped me a great deal with the homework problems. I 
 also enjoy the discussions we get into...its interesting to hear other p
 people's views. (I also immensly enjoyed the item to vent Monty Python, since
 no one I know will let me ;)  ) But, it is EXTREMEly time consuming.
- - - - -
Mar08/94 23:58
52:38)  Scott:
 Yes, I totally agree.  I think that if we could alleviate some of the
 excess chatter, more people might have time to zip in possibly between
 classes and generally more often, which leads me to the question, how to
 permanently skip items that are of no interest?  Take no offense, but 
 having to sift through 50-some items with only about 20 or so being
 remotely pertinant gets bothersome.  Otherwise, I like Confer and would 
 like to see it implemented in many more classes.  I would rather voice
 questions over a machine than in class in front of lots of people.  On
 the 3 or 4 credit debate:  this should definitely be 4 cr.hrs.  Also,
 signon should only be required 3 times/week w/recognition for going above
 and beyond.
- - - - -
Mar09/94 01:43
52:39)  Kevin:
 Scott, at "Respond, Forget, or Pass:" simply type "forget."
- - - - -
Mar09/94 09:13
52:40)  John Lawler:
 You don't have to sift through any items that aren't current.
 
 When you log on, just say NEW.
 
 Let me repeat that.  Some of you may be using other commands that
 make you go through stuff you've already seen.  The command you *should*
 be using is
 
       NEW
 
- - - - -
Mar09/94 14:20
52:41)  Joe:
 I think Confer is fairly worthwhile.  There have been some fairly
 thought-provoking items.  But, I said "fairly."  I think what we really need
 is something that will allow us to think originally on some matters having to
 do with language.  Perhaps "originally" is a bad word to use.  How about
 "long and hard?" A real challenge, something without a solution, would be
 beneficial.
- - - - -
Mar09/94 15:25
52:42)  Karen :
 Je suis d'accord avec toi, Joe!
- - - - -
Mar09/94 18:46
52:43)  Nicholas:
 I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean Joe by something without 
 a solution... would you care to expand on that response?
 
- - - - -
Mar09/94 20:39
52:44)  Rob:
 Karen, can you please translate number 42 for the non-french speaking people?
- - - - -
Mar09/94 23:23
52:45)  Kevin:
 She's just telling Joe that she agrees with him.  Either that or ordering
 a green salad.
- - - - -
Mar10/94 11:34
52:46)  Joe:
 Sometimes, agreeing with me can be the equivalent of ordering a green salad.
 Nicolas, by "something without a solution" I mean to say "something that is
 not cut and dried."  Something that can be seen more than two ways.  An
 item like the current vegetarian item is not what I mean, as there are really
 only two views on the subject:  you are one, or you aren't.  What we need
 is something to make us feel uneasy, something that will keep us awake at
 night in search of a solution.  Something that will draw on past knowledge,
 analyze the present, and predict/prescribe the future.  An item that will
 require a great deal of thinking, a great deal of soul-searching, a great
 deal of misery, even.  Let's hear 'em
- - - - -
Mar10/94 12:12
52:47)  John Lawler:
 Um, if Skagit isn't keeping you awake at night, I have some other
 things I could assign...
- - - - -
Mar10/94 15:07
52:48)  Amy:
 sounds more painful than fun to me...unless it happens to be something fun.:)
- - - - -
Mar10/94 15:45
52:49)  Larry:
 Joe, you're starting to sound like my conscience.
 Prof. Lawler, how many poeple speak Skagit???
- - - - -
Mar10/94 16:14
52:50)  John Lawler:
 Maybe a hundred.  Most of them are over 50.  It's dying, in other words.
- - - - -
Mar11/94 13:08
52:51)  Vassoula:
 I think confer is helpful.  However, The vegetarian thing
 has gotten very carried away.  People seem to restate their opinions
 and it's basicly the same thing.  I'm not sure that thata really
 makes sense, but oh well you're not supposed to understand everything.
- - - - -
Mar11/94 13:12
52:52)  Larry:
 Does anyone realize that there are more people studying Skagit in our
 class than there are Skagit speakers in the world?
- - - - -
Mar11/94 15:59
52:53)  John Lawler:
 That's been the case for about 20 years.  So how many are studying
 Latin?
- - - - -
Mar11/94 18:16
52:54)  Stephanie:
 r
 good point
- - - - -
Mar11/94 18:19
52:55)  Karen :
 Joe,
 Well, I certainly agree with you about a need/yearning/quest to 
 learn. . .to propose troubling, reality changing ideas---to shatter 
 pre-existing schemas in stead of blindly agreeing with the established
 or prevailing paradigm. . .because it is cognitively easier.
 To set aside ideas because they are multi-causal and choose instead a 
 simplified (yet incorrect) version of truth is to deify ignorance.
 Yet, unfortunately this seems to be the prevailing sentiments of our 
 generation. So, with that said, anyone got a topic? ;) Karen
- - - - -
Mar13/94 15:07
52:56)  Joe:
 I've got an idea.  We've spoken occasionally and briefly of where language
 comes from.  However, there is much more to say.  I suggest a topic wherein
 we will discuss the actual beginnings of languages of all sorts.  Where does
 one get an idea for a new word?  Did language arise because of the complex
 cognitive machinery of a human, or was there something within the machinery
 that saw a need for it?  What purposes does it serve?  Where might its limits
 lie?  What do the changing aspects of a language, through time, reveal about
 its speakers?  I think you get the idea.  What do you think?  Will something
 like this work?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 15:23
52:57)  John Lawler:
 Well, of course such an item is possible.  But discussions of origins
 of language are necessarily speculative.  We are pretty sure that we've
 been talking (as a species for at least a half-million years, possibly
 as long as 3 million.  But we have language records only from the last
 5000 years, and only fragmentary and sporadic at that.  Most of the
 currently-spoken languages in the world have *no* records older than
 a century, and many of them will be dead before they're documented
 at all well.
 
 On this basis, virtually anything we can say about the remote origins
 of language is science fiction.  We just don't know, and since language
 leaves no fossils, we never will know.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 15:37
52:58)  Joe:
 Okay, then, how about discussing the nature of language as it relates to
 what we DO have?  Also, I think that perhaps "science fiction" is the wrong
 term.  I'm not speaking of Klingons, I'm asking for opinions.  If that's
 all we have, then that's all we can use.  And please note:  I am not
 interested in pure conjecture;  if I was, "science fiction" might be an
 appropriate label for it.  My hope is that someone will have some grounded
 notions on this topic.  I know I do, and also that the process of acquiring
 this information was enlightening to the fullest extent.  The history of
 language is seemingly a very relevant issue to the history of thought, the
 history of consciousness.  With regard to fossils:  do you think that the
 (or rather, any) fossils which have been discovered permit us to know
 anything anyway?  Or do we make inferences concerning these items?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 15:57
52:59)  Joe:
 I just read what Prof. Lawler posted concerning the "art" of language.  I
 felt that I had better comment, especially in the light of the last few
 responses.  "Language as art" is, I believe, incorrect in such a broad
 sense.  For the use of language to be artful, one must consciously do
 something with it that is out of the ordinary.  In other words, one must
 use it to create a new emotion or experience if its usage is to be
 considered artful.  When I am sitting in a McDonald's, overhearing someone's
 news that "He/She got really drunk last night," am I hearing spoken art?
 I believe that language is a habit, just like most other habits.  Yet, I
 also believe that it was not always taken for granted.  What I wish to 
 examine is the transition from this hypothetical "other" view of language
 to the way it is used today.  On the contrary to Professor Lawler's posting,
 I believe that the artistic use of language is, and must be, a conscious
 activity.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 15:59
52:60)  Joe:
 I'm sorry.  One more thing:  language does not reshape itself, WE reshape IT.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 16:33
52:61)  John Lawler:
 Well, then, let's take this to a Language Arts Item, and leave this one
 for discussion of Confer, OK?
 
 We now return you to your regularly scheduled Confer discussion...
- - - - -
Apr05/94 18:42
52:62)  John Lawler:
 If any of you are experiencing problems with the TRANSMIT (T) command
 that's used to send messages to other people in the conference, please
 let us know here.  I'll make it easy.
 
 If you do a TRANS and get an error message, just say "mistake" and
 you'll get to the Respond, Forget, or Pass: prompt for this item, and
 you can say exactly what happened.  OK?  
 
 By the way, if this does happen to you, try again and see what happens.
- - - - -
Apr06/94 23:12
52:63)  Alana:
 I'm still having trouble transmitting messages.
- - - - -
Apr06/94 23:51
52:64)  Margaret:
 I'm having trouble transmitting messages too...
- - - - -
Apr07/94 08:27
52:65)  John Lawler:
 If you could be more specific about the trouble you're having...
 Like, what happens?  What messages does Confer give you?
 Does it *always* happen?  Under what circumstances?
 They can't do much about fixing it until they hear (as I said above)
 "exactly what happened".
 
 Like calling up the doctor saying "I'm having troubles swallowing";
 you wouldn't expect her to give you a prescription without asking
 a few more questions, no?
- - - - -
Apr07/94 16:21
52:66)  Margaret:
 Sorry.  Yes it always happens...I just tried to "t" you again.  IT says
 "could not open /confer/lib/jlawler/cer.mesg   Something is wrong
 message not sent."  (and something about saving text using the keep
 command...)  other than that, I can't help...
- - - - -
Apr07/94 17:10
52:67)  John Lawler:
 Aha! so is it only me you're having trouble reaching with TRANS?
 Or doesn't it work at all?
- - - - -
Apr07/94 17:13
52:68)  Mitchell:
 TRANS works when used with other names, John.  I transmitted a message
 to Anand yesterday and had no difficulty.  No offense, but there seems
 to be something amiss with your TRANS program.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 17:16
52:69)  John Lawler:
 It's not *my* trans program.  It's probably my message file permissions.
 Thanks.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 18:51
52:70)  Stephanie:
 I am not having any troubles either
- - - - -
Apr07/94 20:05
52:71)  Amy:
 I tried to send a message to you, JL.  The response it gave me was:
   Could not open /confer/lib/j lawler/CONFER.MSG/
   Something is wrong - message not sent.
 Then it asked me if I wanted to save the text by using the command KEEP.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 20:28
52:72)  Tom:
 Yep,I am able to transmit and recieve messages.  But when I tried to transmit
 a message to JL I got the same response as everyone else on this response.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 08:19
52:73)  John Lawler:
 Yup, it was my file permissions.  It should be fixed now.  Thanks for
 the help, fellow guinea pigs :-)

From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 53    Mar04/94 02:00     1 line    113 responses
Calvin                        
SKAGIT Problem

 Welcome, Skagiteers (well, almost)!

  113 responses
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Mar04/94 02:10
53:1)  Calvin:
 I have several questions:  what is and 'open class'? are the verbs the root
 morphemes?  are the placement of the adverbs dependent on their syllable
 count or semantics or others (that is, where the adverbs are found in the
 words)?  should -a?- be switched to -?a- in #9?  Is the bilabial x of the
 morpheme for 'now' an allomorph of the s found in other adverb-containing
 words?
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Mar04/94 07:59
53:2)  John Lawler:
 An open class is a word class that is large and lexical in nature. In
 English, nouns, verbs, and adjectives/adverbs are open classes. Pronouns,
 conjunctions, prepositions, articles are closed classes. We frequently borrow
 or innovate items in open classes, but not in closed classes (how many
 proposed new pronouns have you heard of, and how many are successful?).  And
 closed classes are grammatical, not really lexical, in function.  "The"
 doesn't have a *meaning*, it has a *use*.
 
 The verb roots (e.g, t'ilib) are roots, and so are the noun roots (e.g,
 stubs^). Actually, these can be taken apart, too (t'il-ib and s-tub-s^,
 respectively), but we don't have information about that yet, and probably
 won't get that intimately associated with the language.
 
 The thing to understand about the adverbs is that calling them "adverbs" is
 likely to mislead you.  In English the word class "adverb" refers to
 something that one throws into a sentence in a number of places, and which is
 grammatically optional.  This is not the case in Skagit.  There, almost
 everything should be treated as a proposition; in particular, the "adverbs"
 are really predicates, just as much as the "verbs", and their position in the
 structure of the sentence is just as fixed and grammatically constrained as
 the position of the verbs and their affixes.
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Mar04/94 14:11
53:3)  Mitchell:
 John, may we work in groups again to solve this new Skagit problem?
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Mar04/94 14:28
53:4)  Lee:
 I guess I was misled in lecture.  Are we supposed to formulate a written
 answer for this problem, suitable for turning in, or are we just supposed
 to look at it a bit more before the next lecture, since we practically
 solved the whole thing in lecture Thursday?
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Mar04/94 20:09
53:5)  John Lawler:
 You may certainly work in groups.  But I'm not asking you for a written
 solution.  You have the weekend off.
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Mar04/94 23:22
53:6)  Dawn:
 (  :):):):):)
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Mar05/94 01:23
53:7)  Jake:
 Dawn, you can solve that problem by beginning the line with a charcater
 other than ":"
 For example:
 {:-)   (Mo)
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Mar06/94 13:05
53:8)  Mitchell:
 I understand that this topic is about the Skagit problem, but I have
 a concern that doesn't warrant its own item.  Is anyone reading this
 living in (or has lived in) Fletcher Hall?  If so, please contact me
 by private reply--I may move in to that hall next term and I have
 some questions I need answered.  Again, I apologize for posting a
 reply that has nothing to do with the topic, and leading to possibly
 intentional topic drift, but please understand that my reasons for such
 an action are certainly not unimportant.
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Mar06/94 18:22
53:9)  John Lawler:
 A bulletin would work for that, Mitchell.
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Mar07/94 16:35
53:10)  Calvin:
 is the snd skagit problem handed out last Friday due this this thursday?
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Mar07/94 17:00
53:11)  Jake:
 Since this item is going nowhere, I hope no-one will mind:
 Thought for the day ---
 "Sometimes you say things and don't mean them. Only grown-ups don't
 understand."
  -Rudyard Kipling
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Mar07/94 21:33
53:12)  Scott:
 I have same ? as 53:10.  Also is Taiwanese prob. due Thurs. as well?
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Mar07/94 22:17
53:13)  Jin Ho:
 Boy, that Rudyard Kipling sure is profound. In all seriousness, his statement
 just goes to show how lacking communication is these days.  It's like the
 movie "The Piano", Jane campion really points up the dilemma, which is more
 effective, insincere verbal communication or sincere physical communication.
  So Mr. Kipling is very right, sometimes we do say things and don't mean
 them. And also, when he says,"...only grown-ups don't understand" I think he
 means .... Well, who cares what I think, right?\
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Mar07/94 23:59
53:14)  Tara:
 Hey Calvin and Scott, look at 53:5!!!   :)
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Mar08/94 00:03
53:15)  John Lawler:
 Right.  Nothing is due for Tuesday.  For a change.
 
 I'll be giving out the Skagit 2 and 3 problems in class, and there's
 a handout on logic.
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Mar08/94 17:23
53:16)  Henry:
 In Skagit #3, what is the t-schwa?"  Why in #17 is there not a
 double s as there is in #23, 24?  Why does #8 have to be nominalized
 (I guess?)  while #2 does not?  Why in #16 and #22 does the you (pl)
 change from celep to lep (I think)?
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Mar08/94 21:06
53:17)  Jake:
 Two of HKs questions, better parsed :-)
 
 1: I think #24 is a typo. There should be no /s/ before /helgwe/
 2:    "    #16  "         There should be no /c^e/ before /lep/
 
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Mar08/94 21:59
53:18)  Mitchell:
 Henry, I don't think #8 is nominalized.  I think sqwebay? (rough
 approximation) is the part meaning dog.  The word, as I see it, can be
 divided thus: ?es/xel/te(d)/sqwebay?.  The respective parts being (from
 left to right) adjective of temporary things, "sick" (a temporary adj.,
 if you will), article, first person singular possessive, and "dog."
 Note: there should be a slash between "te" and (d) above.
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Mar09/94 00:24
53:19)  Scott:
 where are you getting the -s- in sqwebay? Is this related to the phenomenon
 noted at bottom of prob.#3--/d/+/s/>/c/12
 J.B.:  I don't think #24 is a typo-look at #7
 M.S.:  "te" doesn't appear to denote 1st psn. sing. possesive--notice #10
 and #11.
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Mar09/94 10:55
53:20)  Sarah:
 I missed the last two classes, anyone knows where to get the handouts?
 Also, would anybody be willing to tell me about the quiz on Thursday, please?
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Mar09/94 11:16
53:21)  Mitchell:
 Scott, I meant to say that "d" is the first person singular possessive,
 and the subject in #8.  The subject in both 10 and 11 is dog.  And yes,
 the "s" came from the d+s=c formula illustrated at the bottom of the page.
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Mar09/94 11:23
53:22)  John Lawler:
 I'm cancelling the quiz on Thursday.  We haven't had a good chance to get
 enough practice yet.  Sorry to exercise you all.
 
 Sarah (and anybody else), you can always get handouts from Leonora.  Trans
 her to find out when she's in.
 
 As for the rest of the questions:
 
 #24 is *not* a typo.  There *should* be an /s/ between ?ib@s^ and h@lgw@.
 
 #16 is not a typo, either.  HINT: there are *two* pronominal paradigms in
 this problem, which overlap in some cases and not in others.  Consider the
 overlap between (for instance) the English subject and object pronoun
 paradigms: I/me is different, you/you is the same, we/us is different, it/it
 is the same, etc.  And ditto between (say) the object and possessive
 paradigms in English: I/my is different, her/her is the same.  You frequently
 get partial overlap between paradigms.
 
 /t@/ is an article, non-specific as to gender; /c@/ is its marked feminine
 counterpart.  Neither has anything to do with possession of any sort.
 
 The /s/ in sqw@bay? is the nominalizer s-.  Most Skagit "nouns" begin with
 /s/, for reasons I've mentioned.  That doesn't mean that all S's are
 nominalizers, of course.  There's an "S" morpheme in this problem, for
 instance, that's different from the nominalizer.
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Mar09/94 11:22
53:23)  John Lawler:
 Not *all* "nouns" in Skagit begin with "S", though.  For instance, the word
 for 'father' pretty obviously doesn't; hence the distinction between #2 and
 #8.
 
 Another hint: how does nominalization work in English?  That is, when we make
 a noun out of a verb in a sentence, what do we do to the nouns that are
 subject and object of the sentence that's being nominalized?  Maybe something
 similar happens in Skagit.
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Mar09/94 14:12
53:24)  Mitchell:
 Question: is the verb form for 'run' t@lawil?  Or is it an article at the
 beginning, with the verb just merely lawil?  And is the progressive form
 just "lcu" with an agentive "?@" at the beginning, or is the whole morpheme
 --?@lcu--progressive?
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Mar09/94 15:48
53:25)  Lida:
 why is "tu" used instead of "lateral fricative,u" for past tense?
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Mar09/94 17:08
53:26)  Jake:
 MS: I agree that t@lawil is "run", because it never occurs without the "t@"
  Also, progressive is "?@lawil" -- I believe he gave us that last Thursday.
  
 LB: "tu" is different from "?u", although I don't know exactly how.
 I _think_ it's the "used to" case.
 (Past progressive might also work)
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Mar09/94 17:46
53:27)  Sean:
 How exactly is -?@- used as the agentive in a sentence?  I am especially
 concerned with #1.  If anyone could help out on this one, I'd greatly
 appreciate it.
      Also, to anyone who can answer this with certainty [that probably
 excludes everyone but Prof. Lawler :-) ].....
    If #24 is not a misprint, how about #18? I know that there are
    slight differences between the two probs. and that the forms
    of "they" could easily be different, but I was just wondering
    if there are any Skagit rules about /-s-/ not being able to 
    follow a lateral obstruent or something (I am wondering because
    of the similarities in the other forms for the two other plural
    pronomial morphemes).
 
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Mar09/94 17:48
53:28)  Lee:
 Is it just me, or is this problem a lot harder than any other one we've
 done.  I've spent a lot of time looking at it, and I've figured out
 most of the "traditional" morphemes, but the weird ones like /s/ for
 nominizer are confusing me.  Anybody have suggestions about how to go
 about solving it.  I've made a bunch of lists, but I'm still not getting
 there.
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Mar09/94 17:55
53:29)  Mitchell:
 Jake, "tu" is the perfective morpheme.  "?u" is the narrative morpheme,
 if I remember lecture correctly.
 Also, Jake, I believe you meant to say that "?@lc'u" is the progressive
 morpheme, not "?@lawil".
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Mar09/94 18:26
53:30)  Calvin:
 What exactly are we supposed to write up for Skagit 3?  There aren't any
 instructions on the handout.
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Mar09/94 18:38
53:31)  Jake:
 What's the consensous on  "?@s"
 Is it:  ?@ + s                <--- I like
 or a seperate morpheme?
  
 also, is "tall" "saj@b" or "aj@b"
 with the initial "s" the nominalizer?   <---- I like too
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Mar09/94 19:54
53:32)  Nicholas:
 Calvin, I think it's safe to assume that a complete explanation and 
 analysis of the data is expected from us. Basically the usual: state 
 roots, morphemes and the rule for these. Then explain how the verbs are 
 used in skagit... make sense?
 Have fun!
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Mar09/94 20:50
53:33)  Rob:
 I have in my notes that ?@ is one morpheme, and that it stands for the
 temporary state.  I still haven't figured out that s that follows it.  Can
 anyone explain what nominalization means.  And lastly I vote that this
 problem has been the toughest yet.
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Mar09/94 20:59
53:34)  Calvin:
 in most of the data, i think the ? is actually a morpheme by itself and it
 occurs before other morphemes that begin with a vowel.  In cases like la?b
 (small) the ? is part of la?b (sorry! it means 'very' instead) and not a
 morpheme.
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Mar09/94 21:13
53:35)  Henry:
 Mitchell, Leonora told me that "tu" is the narrative morpheme, while
 "?u" is the past.  Sean, Leonora also gave me a *big* hint in that
 the subject markers come in two classes depending on if there is an adverb
 associated with the verb formation.  Jake, that tells me that
 "tall" is "sajeb".  *However*, when Prof. Lawler said #8 was 
 nominalized it really confused me because there is no adverb.
 Obviously you don't need an adverb, but it does appear with all
 the "converted" subject markers.  Sean, I think -?@- is the 
 possessive marker for "man's".
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Mar09/94 21:15
53:36)  Henry:
 Calvin, the ? is always part of a larger morpheme.
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Mar09/94 21:29
53:37)  Calvin:
 i think there are basically two types of morphological sentence structures in
 Skagit (don't let the sentence structures of the english glosses fool you). 
 They are (very generally speaking):  {descriptive morhem}{noun morpheme(s)} 
 and {verb morpheme(s)} {noun morphem(s)}.  For example, #21 should read
 something like this in Skagit:  {fast}{our walking}. Or, #22: 
 {good}{your(pl.) basket-making}.  Or, #16:  {basket-made}{you(pl.)}.  The
 different morphemic forms of you (pl.) in #16 and 22 is attributed to the
 difference in sentence structures.
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Mar09/94 21:32
53:38)  Calvin:
 Henry, could you explain what you meant in R 36? I don't quite understand.
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Mar09/94 21:39
53:39)  Calvin:
 does anyone no why -?@- occurs before articles in some cases.  Also, why is
 it that certain adjectives like mima?d and hik(labialized) do not have s- or
 ?es- markers before them?
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Mar09/94 21:48
53:40)  Scott:
 Is /d/ representative of 1st person? Remember note at bottom of prob.
 I'm having problems figuring out the order of the morphemes.  So far I've
 got adverb/article/aspect(changables or habitual)/tense/condition or verb
 root/article(te)/agent/subject/perspective.  Anyone?  I can't seem to
 figure out the rules for article/agent placement and for possesion-if there
 is such to be indicated.  Also I'm thrown off by #26-tense preceeds 'aspect',
 (?@s)Nevermind this sentence!
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Mar09/94 21:50
53:41)  Jake:
 "?@" is the agentive - the agent, the doer, someone who does. Need an active
 verb. (yes, I answered my own question - ?@s in one morpheme).
 
 CY, ?@s is a morpheme which means approximatly (John mentioned this in 
 class) "Hey, buddy, watch out, there's an adjective which indicates a 
 temporary state coming up."
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Mar09/94 21:53
53:42)  John Lawler:
 Coming fast and furious now, isn't it? Joe, you wanted something without an
 obvious solution... OK, let's see how many of these I can manage.  
 
 Yes, this
 *is* a hard problem.  It's dealing with a lot more and more different topics
 simultaneously that we have before.  And it doesn't give enough information
 for you to resolve everything.  All those questions about whether it's
 {?@}-{lc'u} or {?@lc'u}, or whether the {?@-} agent marker and the {?@-}
 possessive marker are the same or not, just aren't going to be resolved. 
 They're suspicious, all right, but at this point all you can do is suspect. 
 That's just fine.  Note your suspicions, but try to avoid the habit of
 assuming they've been proven until you can verify them, eh? A good thing to
 mention in this regard is what kind of evidence it would take to decide the
 matter one way or the other.
 
 The difference between ?u- and tu- I've mentioned in section and also in
 class.  tu- is a perfective aspect, meaning, essentially, "all done".
 ?u- is a narrative aspect, meaning "and then.."; it's used as the default
 aspect for active predicates when you don't have any other aspect and/or
 have to stack aspects (like when all the other ones have to go on the
 other side of the s- nominalizer).
 
 There's no {?} morpheme that I know of.  The temporary-state aspect is
 ?@s-, and /?/ is just a consonant like /t/ in Skagit, only a lot
 more common.
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Mar09/94 21:53
53:43)  John Lawler:
 
 Calvin's barking up the right tree in 37.  I might add that virtually
 all Skagit sentences have the structure PREDICATE (Argument), where
 "Argument" can have that structure, too.  When that's the case,
 something happens to the embedded sentence (i.e, the one that's an
 Argument) to show it's embedded.  One of the things is nominalization,
 which makes a sentence into a noun.  Which is just what it ought to be,
 right, because Arguments *are* normally nouns?
 
 Does this help?
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Mar09/94 22:00
53:44)  John Lawler:
 Yes, d- is the first person possessive affix.  Notice what happens to
 it in front of a noun (like sqw@bay?) that starts with /s/.  Ditto
 for second person, right?  But who said all the affixes have to be
 prefixes?
 
 Calvin, the ?@- that appears before articles is the agent marker.  It's
 used to indicate that the noun phrase it precedes is the agent of a
 active predicate.  Notice that the stative predicates don't use it,
 and "spill", where "water" is a patient, not an agent, also doesn't
 use it.  But all the ones where somebody alive is *doing* something
 have the doer marked with ?@-.
 
 Scott, there are an awful lot of potential slots if we consider these
 things as one word, aren't there?  Maybe the thing to do is to break
 them up into recurrent parts and treat *those* as single words.  Like
 Predicate and Argument, for instance.
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Mar09/94 22:02
53:45)  Scott:
 Calvin, certain descriptives (I'm not sure if we should necessarily call them
 adjectives)which are not relatively changable (tall, small) do not use the
 aspect marker -?@s-.Those such as cold, awake, happy, sick, etc., all
 changing conditions, do use it.  I'm guessing that another 'aspect' morpheme
 is the habituallity indicator,-barred lambda+u-.  The -s- marker, I believe,
 is simply a nominalizer.
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Mar09/94 22:14
53:46)  John Lawler:
 By the way, let me repeat that 
 
    I have called off the quiz for tomorrow.
 
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Mar09/94 22:16
53:47)  Scott:
 The predicate-argument model really clears things up.
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Mar09/94 22:17
53:48)  John Lawler:
 Yes, doesn't it?
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Mar09/94 22:29
53:49)  Jake:
 Yes, the pred-argument thing was just so durn nifty.
 It took me awhile to see it evene after it was mentioned though.
 I have to say that all the rules I have _work_, but they seem very choppy.
 They don't fit into a nice linear "paradigm" (except with a lot a 
 footnoting!), so I didn't even try.
 
 Let me comment that while this was the hardest problem we've had so far, 
 it was not _that_ difficult. If you wright each word out several times, 
 and chopp it up each time, than most things fall into place.
 
 Hope this helps :-)
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Mar10/94 09:24
53:50)  Stephanie:
 five hours last night to get an answer that may not even be right
 is not what I call difficult...it is what I call ridiculus. I would
 have much preferred to have a problem like this over a wweekendd so I
 could have more time to look it over. I think we agree with
 most of the stuff up here...by far the hardest problem yet.
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Mar10/94 10:01
53:51)  Laurie:
 I think the problem is interesting, but am also feeling lost.
 I have put in a lot of time and have only come up with some 
 mopheme glosses. However, I had to be out of town for my work last week
 and missed the intro to the whole language, so I'm hoping that I'm
 operating under an justifiable excuse and will in fact get it with a 
 little catch up explanation.?!
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Mar10/94 11:11
53:52)  John Lawler:
 Groups are OK, remember?
 
 For you information, there are two more Skagit problems coming today.
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Mar10/94 12:16
53:53)  Kevin:
 To skritch a marmoset.
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Mar10/94 15:39
53:54)  Leonora Sanchez:
 For everybody's information (especially those who aren't in my sections):
 my office hours are 2-3 MW.  IF you need handouts or information, you
 can always stop by then.
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Mar10/94 15:47
53:55)  Larry:
 Prof.  Lawler, can you explain the gender-marking thing.  /te/ vs /?ete/
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Mar10/94 16:15
53:56)  John Lawler:
 It's not gender.  t@ is an article.  ?@ is an agent marker.  The
 feminine version of t@ is c@.  A female agent will be ?@c@...
 That's all.
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Mar11/94 18:12
53:57)  Mitchell:
 I think we should move the legacy-of-Skagit discussion to this topic
 instead.  Anyway, should I presume, somber as it sounds, that if
 Skagit should die out as a spoken language, should we just accept this
 as a consequence of certain languages?  After all, how often do spoken
 languages die?  (I think the rate of languages that die probably
 has increased in the latter-half of the twentieth century because of
 larger, more powerful cultures swallowing up smaller, less powerful
 ones.)
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Mar11/94 20:06
53:58)  Mitchell:
 I have disected much of Problem #5, and I have some issues which remain
 unresolved.  First, (this isn't all that important, but I was just
 curious) why do some vowels have accent marks slanted \ and / ?  Does it
 matter?  Does it matter in solving this assignment?  Anyway, I think that
 {gw@} is a statement marker accompanying the "not" morpheme {xwi?} when
 in the middle of a word, and is also a subjunctive question marker when
 put in the beginning of a word?  ({kwi} by the way, would be the imper-
 ative equivalent when it's with "not")  *  Is {kwi} also a designator
 for "any"?  (I guess yes)  *  I tried to write lesson 5's glosses in
 predicate calculus fashion, but I don't know (1) How to designate "now",
 "maybe", and "anyway", or even if I should worry about designating them
 (2) How to designate imperative and interrogative sentences, or even if
 I should worry about them  *  I have found four main groups of
 transitive suffixes (which I shall clump together into 2 large groups,
 and call them groups I and II), which have a sense of volition or
 non-volition.  They are as follows:
 I, vol. {ad}: 7, 15, 20, 21
 I, vol. {ac}: 14
 I, vol. {@d}: 22
 I, vol. {uc}: 25
 I, non-vol. {dxw}: 8, 13, 23
 II, vol., {atubu}: 9, 11
 II, vol. {acut}: 24
 II, vol. {acid}: 27
 II, non-vol. {dubu}: 10, 12
 II, non-vol. {dub\/s}: 16, 26
 II, non-vol. {dubicid}: 17
 Whew!  Anyway, can anyone confirm or refute these findings?  Also can
 anyone find out what determines which specific morpheme will be used?
 Thanx.
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Mar12/94 13:48
53:59)  Calvin:
 In my case, i found two transtional suffixes:  {a} (volitional) which changes
 to {u] to assimilate with the preceding vowel(?), see #25.  And {d}
 (nonvolitional).  These suffixes precede object pronouns which belong in one
 of the two paradigms.
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Mar12/94 13:58
53:60)  Calvin:
 concerning #'s 9&10 and #'s 11&12, the volitional and non-volitional object
 pronouns appear to be the same except for the t before the volitional object
 pronouns.  Should one consider the t as a consonant used in Skagit to prevent
 the occurrence of vowel clustering?
- - - - -
Mar12/94 15:31
53:61)  Mitchell:
 Thanks for your insight, Calvin.  I think you may be on to something.
 I'll post additional findings later.
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Mar12/94 16:53
53:62)  Nicholas:
 Question time... yippee... :) Does the paradigm shift occur because of 
 tense or volition marker... or is it something else?
 Is there a difference between 'you' implied and 'you' explicit (first 
 person)?  How does the vowel harmony work for #22 and #27?  And finally 
 what is the significance of the -ub affix?
 
 Our findings:
 There is only one set of volitional affixes.  Nominalization seems to be 
 related to negation. gwe is very mysterious... To find roots look at 
 larger groups of letters.
 There is some allomorphy lurking in dark shadows. :) 
 
 Personal comment:
 I'm glad I'm not Skagit! And I'm not totally surprised to hear that it's 
 a dying language!!! 
 
 
 Merry Christmas! :)
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Mar12/94 17:56
53:63)  John Lawler:
 By popular demand, I'm declaring Skagit 5 a "Large Problem", and
 extending the due date until Thursday.  That way you can do a really
 good job, natch.
 
 Remember, groups are fine.
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Mar12/94 20:00
53:64)  Calvin:
 Concerning the morphemes g(w)@, k(w)i, and l@ (in #19), the 1st one implies a
 sense of uncertainty (I thought) and it's used in both negated and
 non-negated sentences; the 2nd one conveys ____(who knows) and is only
 founded in negated imperative sentences
  as Mitchell indicated before; and the 3rd one may have something to do with
 certainty and is seen in negated associative (for lack of a better word)
 sentences.  Does anyone have other ideas about these morphemes?  They're
 really ...odd.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 12:46
53:65)  Mitchell:
 I may have already written what I'm about to type, so I apologize in
 advance for any redundancies.  Anyway, I think that g(w)@ is a morpheme
 that accompanies the "not" morpheme in indicative sentences (when put in
 the middle of a word, at least--when put at the beginning, it signifies
 subjunctive questions (can, may)).  k(w)i is the g(w)@ equivalent for
 imperative sentences.  I think that the l@ in #19 is just part of the "that"
 morpheme.  To wit: since "that" appears in only one gloss (19) and we have
 a heretofore unfamiliar sequence of sounds (l@s...sti?a), then the whole
 sequence should be "that".  Nicolas, the paradigm shift, to the best of my
 analysis, occurs because of volition marker.  You'll sometimes find a "you"
 morpheme in imperative sentences, because--in imperative sentences--the
 subject is understood to be "you."  (e.g., [you] give us a lift)  Also,
 the volition marker (usually "a") shifts to whatever vowel preceded it,
 accounting for the changes in 24 and 25.  "ub", I think, is just a part
 of the object morphemes (under "a") 1P (first-person, plural), 2P (etc.),
 (under "d"): 1S, 2S, 1P, 2P.  There may be two versions of 2S objects
 under "a" (unless #27 is regarded as reflexive).  Finally, unless you 
 count #21, there are no 3P object morphemes in the data for either
 paradigm.  (whew!)
- - - - -
Mar13/94 14:41
53:66)  John Lawler:
 I think you have most of it, Mitchell.  Volitionality is certainly the crux
 of the paradigm distinction.
 
 But at this stage of analysis, you really aren't in a good position yet to
 chop up the paradigmatic morphemes so finely.  There clearly is considerable
 overlap between the paradigms, just as there is in the possessive/subject
 paradigms in Problem 3.  But certainly the first person singular forms of the
 two object paradigms are quite distinct, even if (say) the first person
 plural forms are similar.
 
 You have good evidence for two separate paradigms for transitive object
 markers, and for what the functional distinction between them is.  You have
 some evidence for general characteristics (like vowel echo in one class, and
 labiovelar fricative vocalization in the other), and some grounds for
 suspicion that the paradigmatic affixes are in fact compound.  But maybe not
 complete grounds for that suspicion.  Again, we're not dealing with "God's
 Truth" here -- we're just trying to figure out how to describe (and if we're
 lucky, explain) what the grammar's like.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 19:01
53:67)  Kiran:
 I agree with Calvin that the g(w)@ is a morpheme that signals uncertainty, or
 as we talked about in Discussion, possibility.  The reason I don't think it
 indicates a statement when in the middle of the word(as Mitchell says) is
 because #2 is a question with g(w)@ in the middle. Also, if anyone could help
 me with #'s 9 and 10, I would really appreciate it.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 19:48
53:68)  Larry:
 Can someone explain what "volition" is and give an example???  It's getting
 tossed around right and left, and I have no clue whatsoever....
- - - - -
Mar13/94 19:54
53:69)  Rob:
 Is there another meaning to the morpheme ?u or am I just confused?  I thought
 that ?u is used for a past tense yet it occurs in 14, 20, 21, 27, 28.  Is
 it meant to also be an imparitive morpheme?  This might have been discussed
 in class, but I lost my notes to the lecture.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 21:53
53:70)  Larry:
 Rob, ?u is the narrative tense morpheme.  'tu' is the past tense morpheme.
 while we're at it, "funny t"u is the future morpheme.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 10:08
53:71)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Larry, volition means intention.  Think about the difference between "pour"
 and "spill".
- - - - -
Mar14/94 11:04
53:72)  John Lawler:
 There's another morpheme ?u, Rob, if that's what you mean.  It goes
 *after* the root, though, instead of before it, like the aspect marker,
 and it indicates a question.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 13:17
53:73)  Mitchell:
 With regards to ?u being after a root to signal a question, see #2.  the
 gloss indicates a question, yet there is no ?u at the end.  However, there
 is a "u" after x(w)i?.  I believe this "u" is a question morpheme in
 the middle of a word.  It's not ?u because (I think) it's either difficult
 or impossible to pronounce 2 consecutive glottal stops without sticking
 another sound between the stops.  (I could be wrong.)  My guess regarding
 the difference between the various placements of ?u involves whether the
 question is indicative (2), or subjunctive (27, 28).  *  Volition just means
 willing something to happen.  Hope all this helps.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 14:17
53:74)  Calvin:
 about the interrogative morpheme, there's a possiblity that the base form
 could be ?u and this glottal drops following another glottal.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 16:16
53:75)  Kiran:
 I agree with Calvin that the base form is ?u and it drops the glottal because
 it is after x(w)i?, but I still don't understand why it is before the root in
 #2 (an aspect marker).  There is no other morpheme in #2 that indicates it is
 a question.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 17:48
53:76)  Henry:
 I think there might be a typo in #13.  Why else would the dissiderative
 morpheme in problem #4 use an "s" while in problem 5 #13 there is no "s"?
 Also, how should #24's "acut" be classified in the paradigm?  What is the
 second k(w)i in #21?  I found out that the "ti" in #18, 19 was for 
 something just introduced.  However, the "?il" in #18 and "l@a...s...?a"
 in #19 are still confusing. 
- - - - -
Mar14/94 17:59
53:77)  Stephanie:
 I am having a problem with the /s/ that occurs sometimes after
 the g(w)@ part of the not morpheme. Can anyone help? Is this
 a nominalizer or part of the not morpheme or something entirely
 different
- - - - -
Mar14/94 20:33
53:78)  John Lawler:
 That s is the nominalizer, Stephanie.  Check back to the adverbial
 constructions.
 
 You can consider ti?iL and ti?a as units, like "this" and "that".  There's
 some morphology involved (yes, you're right, Henry, it's the "just
 introduced" sense), but you don't have enough information to determine it.
 
 Xwu?@l@ is a single morpheme that simply means "maybe".  Don't try to break
 it up.
 
 The ?u- aspect marker is *not* the same thing as the -?u yes/no question
 marker.  There are several different kinds of questions, and -?u only marks
 one kind.
 
 You're quite right, double glottal stops don't occur.
 
 #24 is an interesting case, isn't it?  The technical term is "reflexive".
- - - - -
Mar14/94 21:36
53:79)  Calvin:
 up til now, this is the rule i came up with for the y/n question marker: 
 always follows x(w)i; otherwise, follows the subject pronoun
- - - - -
Mar14/94 21:56
53:80)  Calvin:
 the note on the bottom of problem #5  states that there will be SOME PARTIAL
 OVERLAP of the object pronoun sets.  From this, i am quite certain that the
 object pronouns of 'us' and 'you(pl.)' are the same and that the [t] before
 the volitional ones serve to prevent vowel clustering between two morphemes.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 22:33
53:81)  Larry:
 I think you are right as for the placement of the question morpheme, 
 Calvin.  It comes after the negative morpheme on negative command structures.
 I *think* I have everything worked out, but I'm sure when I go to write
 this darn thing up, I'll realize some new tense or something ;).
- - - - -
Mar15/94 17:34
53:82)  Sean:
 No one has finished answering poor Rob's question (see response #69).
 The ?u in numbers 27 and 28 was covered, but what about the ?u in #'s
 14, 20, and 21?  Does it have something to do with negative commands?
 These examples are obviously not questions and I can't really see them
 being in the narrative aspect unless they are supposed to be glossed like:
 "Then he yelled, 'Don't help me!'"
 If any one has any ideas, both Rob and I (or at the very least - I) are
 still waiting...
- - - - -
Mar15/94 18:19
53:83)  Calvin:
 what's the purpose of the s before ti?a in #19?
- - - - -
Mar15/94 18:38
53:84)  Calvin:
 how many morphemes are we allowed to have in the predicate part of the
 proposition?
- - - - -
Mar15/94 19:36
53:85)  Kiran:
 Sean, I think that the ?u in #'s 14, 20, and 21 is the morpheme for the 
 narrative past tense (as in Skagit problem #2), but I still don't understand
 what the ?u is in #2.  I though that if it is a yes/no question marker it 
 goes after the pronouns. But it can't be a narrative past marker, because
 #2 isn't a statement and it isn't past tense.  I know I've asked this same
 question about three times already, but no one has answered, and it is
 really confusing me.
 Calvin, the s in #19 is the morpheme for 3rd person, singular possessive
 pronoun.  As we talked about in class today, when an argument is nominalized
 you have to use the possessive pronouns (although I'm not really sure why).
- - - - -
Mar15/94 21:44
53:86)  Jake:
 The question marker ?u  comes after the SUBJECT, not after the PREDICATE
 part of the word. Therefore, we can surmise that a sentance like:
 (OOPS, where's my notes?)
 that ends with a question particle has no predicate.
  
 The trick is, where do the subject and predicate disunite?
 It's before what I'm calling the marker:
 ?es for adjectives
 <tense> for gerunds
 te for nouns.
  
 Oh, BTW, gwe is used like a tense.
 Therefore, gwe marks off the predicate from the subject, and that's why
 ?u occurs before gwe in consructions like:
 xwe?ugwe.
 
 I hope that's clear. (hard to remember without my notes).
- - - - -
Mar15/94 23:31
53:87)  Fred:
 I think I understand most of the aspects of this problem.  My concern
 is how to write it up.  On other problems, I'd just say where a morph-
 eme could be in a word and what limits were placed on its being there.
 I *can* do pretty much the same thing for this problem, but I'm won-
 dering if this is really the right way.  This problem, as Prof. Lawler
 has said, is the beginning of our study of syntax.  Is making such a 
 framework for each word an irrationally limiting way of looking at 
 this problem?  If it is, I don't know of any other way.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 23:46
53:88)  John Lawler:
 Sounds reasonable, Fred.  Then you specify how the words go
 together and you're in.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 23:56
53:89)  Calvin:
 Kiran, see my response 79 for the rule about the y/n quetion marker.  As for
 the reason why it's placed "before the root", i really don't know but i would
 guess that the presence of x(w)i takes precedence over the 'root' in
 determing the placement of ?u.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 09:05 
53:90)  Stephanie:
 does 'drop' have two allomorphs?
 and if not, what is the /ad/ after the /k(w)a?/ in #20
- - - - -
Mar16/94 11:31
53:91)  John Lawler:
 No, it doesn't, Stephanie.  /kwa?/ is the root, and it can take
 either a volitional or a non-volitional object marker.  Look again.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 19:12
53:92)  Amy:
 Question for anyone out there:
 Amy and I are writing up our #5 stuff, and are a little confused as to
 EXACTLY what you want. John. 
 Are we safe to say that we have to 
 1) address the issue of volition/non-volition
 2) state all object pronouns either distinct or shared
 3) and then state word orders?
 Do you want the roots, tenses, etc?
 Thanks, Karen
- - - - -
Mar16/94 19:57
53:93)  Nicholas:
 Amy, this is what we've done (following Leonora's instructions...):
 list morphemes, word order, allomorphy (if any), imperative markers and 
 any other rules (vowel harmony, volitional stuff....)
 Good luck! :)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 19:57
53:94)  Amy:
 Thanks much alot! And you really shouldn't be so happy about this...others of
 us are suffering! ;)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 21:25
53:95)  Calvin:
 the hardest part about this assignment was TRYING to decribe your analysis on
 a sheet of paper because there were considerable variability in the
 morphology.  The use of proposition did help but to only a certain extent. 
 Leonora, be kind on us (or at least me)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 21:47
53:96)  John Lawler:
 Stating this kind of stuff is hard.  But it's the only way you can learn to
 be precise, and that tells you (and everybody else) whether you've really got
 a pattern or are just waving your hands.
 
 I mentioned to a student the other day who was asking me about their work
 something like "Three-quarters of the job is learning to find the patterns,
 and the other quarter is learning how to state it clearly."
 
 Judging from the general performance on the mid-term, most of you are pretty
 good at both of these.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 23:35
53:97)  Larry:
 I just finished typing mine up.  Here's what I have (for those of
 you still grinding on this problem):
  
 The [?u] goes after the negative marker for negative commands.  It also
 drops the glottal stop.
 The [?u] in 14,20,21 signifies negative commands.
 (*** the 'commands' in my first rule-- 3 lines up-- should say 'questions')
 The 's' before the demonstrative pronoun signifies 'possessive'
 The [gwe] is the subjunctive *mood*, not a tense.
 The [ad] is the volitional 3rd person singular morpheme.
  
 This may or may not be correct, but I hope it helps!!! ;)
- - - - -
Mar17/94 01:40
53:98)  Zachary:
 Thank you for the help, this problem is rather baffling.
- - - - -
Mar17/94 11:40
53:99)  Rob:
 When doing this or any other problems of this type, it may help if you keep
 these two points in mind: Blore's Razor:  Given a choice between two
 theories, take the one which is funnier. Brady's 1st law of problem solving:
 When confronted by a difficult problem, you can solve it more easily by
 reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger have handled this?" I
 hope these two rules help a lot. :)
- - - - -
Mar17/94 12:29
53:100)  Mitchell:
 John, by saying "judging from the general performance of the midterm,"
 I presume that the midterms have been graded.  Am I correct?
- - - - -
Mar17/94 12:35
53:101)  Jake:
 We're suppossed to get them back tommorrow.
 ++score_jake
- - - - -
Mar17/94 15:19
53:102)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Calvin, I don't think you should worry about the Skagit.  Most people did
 prettty well on #3.  
 Rob, who is Blore?
- - - - -
Mar17/94 19:27
53:103)  Dawn:
 Rob, thanks for those two rules of thumb, but i second the motion; Who is 
 Blore?
- - - - -
Mar17/94 19:45
53:104)  Stephanie:
 Yes, who is Blore
- - - - -
Mar17/94 21:19
53:105)  Rob:
 I have no idea who Blore is.  I obtained those two rules off of something a
 (excuse me a should be I) saw posted on somebody's door.  I suppose it is the
 guy who made up the rule.
- - - - -
Mar17/94 22:27
53:106)  Calvin:
 <relief>
- - - - -
Mar18/94 14:39
53:107)  Lida:
 I don't know which item would be best for this
 question, but I don't feel like searching through 
 50 of them to find out.
 Is there a subjunctive mood technically in English?
 And can we use the meaning of subjunctive to answer
 the homework for Tues.?
- - - - -
Mar19/94 13:09
53:108)  Mitchell:
 There is no technical subjunctive mood in English, Lida.  There are,
 however, words which express subjunctivity (in English) called "modals."
 Some examples of modals include would, should, can, might, may, shall,
 will, and so forth.  Although I can't speak for John or Leonora, I don't
 think they would object if you used the term "subjunctive" for your
 answer.  (I certainly would not mind.)
- - - - -
Mar19/94 13:11
53:109)  Dawn:
 Where is everyone???
- - - - -
Mar19/94 14:21
53:110)  John Lawler:
 Probably outside.
 
 Actually, Lida, there is technically a subjunctive mood in English.  It
 occurs in everybody's speech, but it's generally not recognized as such.
 
 There are two kinds of subjunctive in English:
 
  a) the "counterfactual" subjunctive, which is used for situations that
     are known to be false.  It's based on the past tense of the verb,
     and indeed is identical to the past tense, except with {be}, where
     it's *always* "were", never "was".  It is triggered by a number of
     hypothetical predicates and conjunctions.  Examples:
 
      If I were you, I'd read the book.
      If this were Patagonia, we'd have a lot of ash on the ground.
      I wish today were Sunday.
 
  b) the "hypothetical" subjunctinve, which is used for situations that
     aren't known to be false, but where the speaker wishes to emphasize
     that it isn't known to be true, either.  This is based on the present
     tense of the verb, and is in fact simply the infinitive form, which
     means that, except in the third person singular, and with {be}, it's
     in fact identical with the present tense form.  It is somewhat archaic
     with "if", and is rarely used that way now; Patrick Henry's famous
 
      If this be treason, make the most of it.
 
     has an old-fashioned flavor about it today.  On the other hand, there
     are a number of predicates where it is used in contrast to the
     indicative (i.e, non-subjunctive = normal) mood to distinguish
- - - - -
Mar19/94 14:21
53:111)  John Lawler:
     hypothetical from actual situations.  For instance, compare:
 
        It's important that he is here on time every day.
 with   It's important that he be here on time every day.
 
     The first is indicative, and it presupposes that he is, in fact,
     here on time every day, and claims that that fact is important.
     The second is subjunctive, and it does *not* presuppose this;
     rather it claims that his (future, hence unknown) punctuality
     will be important (to whom is not mentioned).
- - - - -
Mar20/94 20:15
53:112)  Larry:
 That's kinda cool.  I knew about the first case, but not the second case.
 I hadn't ever thought about it actually... ya learn something new...
- - - - -
Mar21/94 23:16
53:113)  Melissa:
 Yeah, when we were learning subjunctive mood in Italian, I was totally
 lost because I was never taught that there *was* an actual subjunctive
 mood in English, and even when my T.A. tried to explain it to me, he
 messed it up.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 54    Mar13/94 16:36     3 lines   122 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=52
Language Arts, and History

    This is a continuation of a discussion that started on the "Confer U Pilot
 Impressions" item. I've moved it here just to have a place for it to
 continue.  The first few responses below are an exchange between Joe and me.

  122 responses
- - - - -
Mar13/94 16:45
54:1)  John Lawler:
 Mar13/94 15:07 52:56)  Joe: I've got an idea.  We've spoken occasionally
 and briefly of where language comes from.  However, there is much more to
 say.  I suggest a topic wherein we will discuss the actual beginnings of
 languages of all sorts.  Where does one get an idea for a new word?  Did
 language arise because of the complex cognitive machinery of a human, or was
 there something within the machinery that saw a need for it?  What purposes
 does it serve?  Where might its limits lie?  What do the changing aspects of
 a language, through time, reveal about its speakers?  I think you get the
 idea.  What do you think?  Will something like this work?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 16:46
54:2)  John Lawler:
 Mar13/94 15:23 52:57)  John Lawler: Well, of course such an item is possible.
  But discussions of origins of language are necessarily speculative.  We are
 pretty sure that we've been talking (as a species for at least a half-million
 years, possibly as long as 3 million.  But we have language records only from
 the last 5000 years, and only fragmentary and sporadic at that.  Most of the
 currently-spoken languages in the world have *no* records older than a
 century, and many of them will be dead before they're documented at all well.
 
 On this basis, virtually anything we can say about the remote origins of
 language is science fiction.  We just don't know, and since language leaves
 no fossils, we never will know.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 16:47
54:3)  John Lawler:
 Mar13/94 15:37 52:58)  Joe: Okay, then, how about discussing the nature
 of language as it relates to what we DO have?  Also, I think that perhaps
 "science fiction" is the wrong term.  I'm not speaking of Klingons, I'm
 asking for opinions.  If that's all we have, then that's all we can use.  And
 please note:  I am not interested in pure conjecture;  if I was, "science
 fiction" might be an appropriate label for it.  My hope is that someone will
 have some grounded notions on this topic.  I know I do, and also that the
 process of acquiring this information was enlightening to the fullest extent.
  The history of language is seemingly a very relevant issue to the history of
 thought, the history of consciousness.  With regard to fossils:  do you think
 that the (or rather, any) fossils which have been discovered permit us to
 know anything anyway?  Or do we make inferences concerning these items?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 16:48
54:4)  John Lawler:
 Mar13/94 15:57 52:59)  Joe: I just read what Prof. Lawler posted
 concerning the "art" of language.  I felt that I had better comment,
 especially in the light of the last few responses.  "Language as art" is, I
 believe, incorrect in such a broad sense.  For the use of language to be
 artful, one must consciously do something with it that is out of the
 ordinary.  In other words, one must use it to create a new emotion or
 experience if its usage is to be considered artful.  When I am sitting in a
 McDonald's, overhearing someone's news that "He/She got really drunk last
 night," am I hearing spoken art? I believe that language is a habit, just
 like most other habits.  Yet, I also believe that it was not always taken for
 granted.  What I wish to examine is the transition from this hypothetical
 "other" view of language to the way it is used today.  On the contrary to
 Professor Lawler's posting, I believe that the artistic use of language is,
 and must be, a conscious activity.  One more thing:  language does not
 reshape itself, WE reshape IT.
- - - - -
Mar13/94 16:55
54:5)  John Lawler:
 An interesting argument, Joe.  The quotation is from Edward Sapir, circa
 1920, in his book _Language_.  I think he was using "art" more metaphorically
 than literally, of course, just to get people thinking about what language
 really is.  And you're in good company wanting to reserve the word "art" for
 conscious activity; the best definition of "art" I ever came across was
 "Conscious direction of means to an end".  This doesn't address the esthetic
 issues of what "good art" might mean, if it means anything; nor the
 sociocultural issues of "fine art" and all that that entails, like museums.
 
 But there are plenty of flies in the ointment.  If we define "art" in terms
 of "consciousness", then we have to have a definition of "conscious", no? 
 And that's a little hard to come by; if "I know it when I see it" were a good
 enough definition for "conscious", it would work for "art", too.
 
 So we have at least two topics to discuss here, if we're interested: the
 origins of language and how we might discover a grounded explanation of them;
 and language as art.  Maybe they go together, and maybe they don't.
 
 What do you think?
- - - - -
Mar13/94 23:52
54:6)  Karen :
 I am still interested in continuing the conversation that I began 
 a month ago about the evolutionary significance of language acquisition.
 It so happens that i am reading an article my S. Pinker (JL---you probably
 know him) who is evolutionary friendly. I will read, and put mu ideas/
 his on the net. So, Joe, sit back, and await a healthy dosage of 
 truth. . .if not TRUTH ;) ---KAREN
- - - - -
Mar14/94 11:07
54:7)  John Lawler:
 The problem with Pinker is that he's sold on one particular view of language
 that's been developed without too much in the way of evidence. Certainly
 language is a species characteristic of H. Sapiens, just like the opposable
 thumb.  But that doesn't mean it's a "mental organ"; we also learn to walk
 and to manipulate things and to put them into our mouth and to focus our eyes
 and to play and all kinds of other things; in effect, we learn to learn.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 11:47
54:8)  Joe:
 Thanks for the item, Prof. Lawler.  Your comment on Sapir's metaphorical
 usage of the term "art" is duly noted.  I understand that he was not
 applying it to ordinary, mundane conversation, but seemingly to the fact
 that we can speak at all, and in so many complex ways.  He seems to be
 marvelling at the sheer volume of it all, and calling its enormity "art"
 because it is difficult to grasp where it all came from.  Though he
 acknowledges that it is created by humans, he seems to think that it is
 created by ALL humans.  If this is the case, I disagree.  As David Hume
 once said, humans are creatures of habit.  Most of us probably do not have
 any idea where our language DOES come from, aside from the knowledge that
 today their geographical and familial contexts contributed to their LEARNING
 of the language that they know.  But where is the creative element?  One
 seemingly must turn to literature to find it.  And what, exactly, is the
 creative element (the artistic element)?  Aristotle defines it as a state of
 capacity to make, involving a true course of reason.  Further, he states that
    "All art is concerned with coming into being, i.e. with contriving and
     considering how something may come into being which is capable of either
     being or not being, and whose origin is in the maker and not in the
     thing made" (_Nicomachean Ethics_, VI.4.1140a10-13).
 It seems that the creative element, then, creates something new!  Concerning
- - - - -
Mar14/94 11:47
54:9)  Joe:
 language, it must have originally been used to create the actual words, which
 did not exist (at least, in their spoken form) until somebody said them.
 Now, on the other hand, "words" exist.  Occasionally we find somebody
 inventing a new one, but they are created out of other "words."  The creative
 element in language now refers to the creation of a new meaning for an
 existing word.  Many times, this meaning will exist in context only.  That
 is why it is now necessary to turn to literature to find it.  It takes a good
 deal of effort to create like this;  hence its absence in everyday speech.
 I will try to find some examples of what I am talking about.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 12:44
54:10)  Nicholas:
 I have a question concerning this general topic: how does a new word 
 become 'official ' in our language (English) today? What I mean by 
 official is accepted by all and put into dictionnaries.
 FYI in France there is an organization called L'Academie Francaise which 
 is made up of of renoun writters and such that decides what new words 
 will be accepted into the French language.  How does it work for English? 
 Or for that matter for most written languages in today's world?
 
- - - - -
Mar14/94 12:44
54:11)  John Lawler:
 Oh, well, Aristotle and Hume both had a somewhat fallible view of what human
 language is.  The fact is that everybody makes up their own language, and
 then we all "pass" as speakers of "the same language". But everybody
 contributes their bit(s) to the history of the language, which changes in a
 very glacial way.  And you can find all kinds of creativity in the ways
 people talk.  For instance, take syntax.
 
 With maybe 50,000 morphemes in the productive vocabulary of an English
 speaker, there are an astronomical number of ways to combine them into
 grammatical sentences (like this one, for instance).  So astronomical, in
 fact, that it's a good bet that any sentence one hears is likely to be a
 sentence that one has never heard before.  Yet we understand it.
 
 Surely this is sufficient cause for awe.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 12:45
54:12)  John Lawler:
 Nicolas, there is no way to become official in English.  Or rather,
 there are many ways, depending on whose dictionary you regard as "official".
 
 Also, note that the Academie Francaise only *attempts* to control the
 written language (not the spoken), and it fails dismally even in that.
 Official language reforms inevitably fail, because the language lives
 in the minds and speech of its users, not in any official compendium.
 
 If you want something to become official, start your own dictionary
 company and declare it official.  Free enterprise rules.  Or you can
 get a newspaper column like William Safire or write books about your
 particular pet peeves, like Edwin Newman.  Neither of these guys knows
 a great deal about the language, but they *sound* authoritative.  That's
 generally enough in the U.S.  We respond well to authoritative voices,
 and we all feel a little nervous about our poor knowledge of English.
 Another result of Miss Fidditch's instructional methods, alas.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 17:46
54:13)  John P:
 jg:  regarding that aristotlean quote... in contrast to 'art comes from 
 the maker,' what about the music and art of 
 john cage, whose goal was to remove the artist from the art.  you'd be 
 on shaky footing to say that aleatoric art is not art.  and what about
 photography?  is taking the picture of a
 tree making that photo a piece of art, or rather is the tree already 
 art? the tree certainly didn't come into being through the action of the 
 artist, and the image on the photo was there without the photographer.
 i like the idea of language as art... it's one more example of the way 
 that each of us unknowingly is an artist.  :) 
- - - - -
Mar14/94 20:37
54:14)  John Lawler:
 There's a reasonable way of looking at art that says it's the *action* that's
 important, and the output (the painting, photo, concerto, statue, etc.) is
 just the outcome of the real art.
 
 On this view, every time we speak, if we're careful about it, we can be
 artists.  Poetry, after all, is spoken (and *was* spoken) primarily, and is
 extemporaneous at its best.  In Duke Ellington's immortal phrase: "If it
 sounds good, it *is* good."
- - - - -
Mar14/94 21:25
54:15)  Zachary:
 I agree that spoken language can have as profound an effect as written 
 language, if not more.  "Art" per say has as many forms as English
 does morphemes, each very striking in its own way, and language is
 certainly "art".
 d
- - - - -
Mar14/94 21:29
54:16)  John Lawler:
 I *like* that, Zach.  "art per say".  That nails it right down.
- - - - -
Mar14/94 22:39
54:17)  Larry:
 I really do not know much about the topic on this item, but the Official
 stuff is kinda cool.  My favorite Webster new word is "spork", which became
 an official Webster's word about 2 years ago.  It began as a sniglet, ya know
 ... those things on calendars that signify "words that should be in the
 dictionary, but aren't".  Then it became used so frequently, that Websters
 felt it was a legitimate word. If anyone doesn't know, a "spork" is one
 of those half-spoon, half-forks made famous by school cafeterias.  I wonder
 when "sniglet" will be in Websters....
- - - - -
Mar14/94 23:42
54:18)  John Lawler:
 They used to be called "runcible spoons".
- - - - -
Mar15/94 12:53
54:19)  Joe:
 Professor Lawler, could you please explain what you mean by saying Aristotle
 and Hume had fallible notions of language?  I was not referring to these
 notions, but to their views on art and habit respectively.  Where might one
 find these notions?  I can't think of anywhere in Hume that this might be.
 Also, how can you say that we all make up our own languages?  Do we not
 actually receive our native languages from other people, i.e. learn them?
 Furthermore, I agree that there are many ways to combine the morphemes of
 a language (how can I not?).  But, when it comes down to it, we are using
 words that have already been used, and have a definite, though necessarily
 abstract (in our time) meaning to them, unless we are contextualizing them
 so as to create a new one.  I have found an example that may indicate more
 precisely what I am talking about.  I his book _Poetic Diction_, Owen
 Barfield, in a chapter called "The Making of Meaning (I)," analyzes, for
 an example of how a word may be used imaginatively, the use of the English
 word "ruin."  To keep this within the limits of a response, I will suggest
 three general phases that this word has gone through, according to Barfield:
 1)The Latin verb "ruo" may be glossed as "rush" or "fall," in addition to
 possible other, similar English meanings, and, indeed, including all of
 them.  In classical contexts, the rendering of this word nearly always
- - - - -
Mar15/94 12:53
54:20)  Joe:
 carries with it "a larger sense of swift, disastrous movement" (p.114).
 Similar words in Greek and other European languages suggest that "the old
 rumbling, guttural 'r', which our modern palates have so thinned and refined,
 once had its concrete connection with swift, natural movements such as those
 of torrents or landslides" (p.115).  Ponder.
 2)Through time, with the aid of increasingly rational worldviews, the word
 comes to mean not the falling itself, but the thing fallen.  The word loses
 its freshness.  Think of the "ruins" of castles you may have seen.  The
 "ruined" is no longer something that IS falling, but something that HAS
 fallen.
 3)Through imaginative effort, one may re-create the original meaning, as
 Wordsworth does:
    Hell heard the insufferable noise, Hell saw
    Heaven ruining from Heaven. (As quoted in Barfield, p.121).
 It is back!  I have much more to say, but it is classtime.  This is much
 too brief, and I have left out a lot.  I'm sorry.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 14:42
54:21)  Larry:
 Ahhh... (Larry explodes)... "I'm ssurrounded by academia!"
- - - - -
Mar15/94 15:06
54:22)  John Lawler:
 Serves you right for sitting in the middle :-)
 
 Consider, Joe, exactly what you mean when you say we "receive" our language
 from others.  Sure, we get the words; but we often don't know what they mean
 for quite a long time.  And where do we get the syntax?  Answer: we make it
 up as we go along.  The individual "intensional" meanings of a word, like
 Barfield's poetic sense of what "ruin" means, are intensely personal. 
 Somebody who's as good a writer as Barfield is (and I highly recommend him)
 can share his sense with somebody else and help them hear with his ears, so
 to speak.  But most of us can't, and most of us don't.
 
 Language doesn't exist in the same way physical objects do; it's a mental
 construct, and a social one at that.  It's part of culture, and its mode of
 existence is similar to that of romantic love, humor, or music -- we seem to
 sense it but we can't figure out how it works too well, and we're not
 entirely sure how we found out what little we know.  We're getting into deep
 water here, and I hope I've taught you all how to swim well enough by now.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 15:07
54:23)  Joe:
 Well, Larry, you're at a university.  Now, to continue (Oh, no!).  John
 Polito, you mentioned "removing the artist from the art."  I am unfamiliar
 with John Cage.  Could you explain what he does?  Regarding trees:  yes,
 I would consider them pieces of art.  But let me ask you this - are they
 actually separate from the artist that made them?  As to taking a photo
 of a tree, as to taking a photo of anything, well, I guess I have some
 crazy opinions on that as well, but I have to be careful what I say here
 (it's not art, it's not art!).  Sorry.
                    
 Now, the action IS what is important, perhaps more important than the output.
 But, maybe the action and the output are the same thing.  Or maybe the
 output is representative of the input.  I'll have to think more about this.
  
 Duke Ellington was right.  If it sounds good, it is good.  But it may still
 be trite and devoid of meaning, if there is nothing to it but the sound.
 Again, this may still be "good," depending on one's definition of the word.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 17:45
54:24)  Stephanie:
 Who said that we receive our language from other people. I guess it really
 doesnt matter who said it, but i must disagree. I think that we learn
 *about* language from other people, but the way in which we put the language
 that we learn *to use* is entirely up to the individuals. Even personality
 differences can lead to different uses of language.
- - - - -
Mar15/94 19:29
54:25)  Nicholas:
 Stephanie I think whoever said we receive language from others might have 
 been thinking about all the words that we import from other 
 cultures/languages.  To some extent modern languages have received a lto 
 from previous and contemporary languages...
- - - - -
Mar15/94 22:19
54:26)  Stephanie:
 oh. i understand
- - - - -
Mar16/94 12:06
54:27)  Joe:
 I was the one who said we receive language from others.  I meant that when we
 are born, we do not possess a spoken language.  However, if we are healthy,
 we are born with the ability to acquite (acquire) one.  This seems fairly
 indispuatble.  I believe that we also have the ability to create a lnaguage.
 Of course, on e person does nt create an entire tongue, but her xxx he or she
 is able to create individual sounds whihch stand for things that he or she
 has experienced.  Through the repetition of theses sounds, they become
 habits. Eventually, an aggregate of habits will be created, and these will
 continue to be repeated.  Through constant exposure to one language, an
 individual will begin to learn the language, to know what certain sounds
 mean, to know how to say them.  [D[D (sorry).  They will become habits
 for the individual.  HJ He or she may contribute something or other to th the
 language, but it will be in the form of previously spoken words, or in the
 form of howe how he or she says certain accepted words.  This is necessary,
 for if on one was to continually invent new words, one would not be
 understood in this day and age.  This is we where Barfield comes in.  One of
 his poingt points is that we can create something entirely new with  a little
 imaginative effort.  If you read Shakespeare, you will find many instances of
 new e meaningfs being given to words which you thought you knew the
- - - - -
Mar16/94 12:06
54:28)  Joe:
 definitions of.  
 
 I apologize for the ere(!) errors above in the typing.  I could not remember
 how to i fix the backspace key, and it nearly drove me insane.  Could someone
 refresh e me? (Aaaaaaaahhhhhh!)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 12:34
54:29)  John Lawler:
 After you log on to Confer, go
   erase <and then press the key you want to be your backspace>
 That'll do it.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 14:45
54:30)  Alana:
 you know it seems like lots of times words just appear, they "fit the 
 situation"  Once a friend and I were opening cans of pop and my fizzed
 all over.  I made a sound which to this day we use as a word when something
 unexpected happens.  Who know, maybe in a few years, if enough of my friends
 use it, I could have created the newest edition to the English language. :)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 15:27
54:31)  Karen :
 Well, well! Quite an exchange. . . I thought that I would begin by defining
 (or challenging) the notion or ART. I am taking a seminar with Richard
 Alexander who is writing a book entitled Evolution of the Arts. What we have
 as a class come to define as art is as follows: it is the intentional,
 purposive act of creating an aesthetic experience for the self as well as
 others. An Artist, is then by definition one who succeeds at this intention.
 How, then, would one view language through this medium? I am more inclined to
 side with Pinker, that language is an instinct . In his recent book The
 Language Instinct he writes: Language is not a cultural artifact that we
 learn the way we learn to tell time or how the federal government works.
 Instead, it is a distinct piece of biological makeup in our brains. Language
 is a complex, specialized skill, which develops in the child spontaneously,
 without conscious effort or formal instruction, is deployed without awareness
 of its underlying logic, is qualitatively the same in every individual, and
 is distinct from more general abilities to process information or behave
 intelligently. For these reasons cognitive scientists have described language
 as a psychological faculty, a mental organ, a neural system, and a
 COMPUTATIONAL MODULE.. . people know how to talk in more or less the sense
 that spiders know how to spin webs. Later: He goes on to explain that
- - - - -
Mar16/94 15:27
54:32)  Karen :
 language is no different than bats who use Doppler sonar, migratory birds who
 navigate 1,000's of miles by calibrating the position of the constellations
 against the time of day and year. "In nature's talent show we are simply a
 species of primate with our own act, a knack for COMMUNICATING INFORMATION
 (like the above species, note) about who did what to whom by modulating the
 sounds we make when we exhale." Once you begin to look at language not as the
 ineffable essence of human uniqueness but as a biological adaptation to
 communicate information, it is ' no longer as tempting to see language as an
 insidious shaper of thought.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 15:37
54:33)  Karen :
 Still later, Pinker goes onto say that people go on to develop language 
 rules when they have no exemplars (he gives many fascinating examples
 about pidgin to creole, creating of deaf signing, etc) b/c these individuals
 possess templates for language acquisition. . .that is to say that all humans
 have a computer recipe or program called mental grammer----a template common
 to all language users of the species homo sapien sapiens, regardless of 
 language spoken. He later suggests underlying genes, structures to prove 
 evidence of this-----
 Comments??? John, have you read this? You really should. . .and if it 
 repulses you, well, then, still read it. "know thy enemy and all. .. " ;)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 16:03
54:34)  Jill:
 I think your environment plays a big part in your language.  Think of all the
 people that live in differents of the U.S. that speak english there are so
 many slang terms and other terminology that people relativly near them do not
 understand.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 16:06
54:35)  Stephanie:
 i agree completely, jill
- - - - -
Mar16/94 17:58
54:36)  Calvin:
 and then then there was art...in language  (isn't that poetic? /standing
 ovation/  Thanks, guys)
- - - - -
Mar16/94 20:36
54:37)  Tom:
 I have to side with Jill and S.A.M. by saying that they area or region plays
 a large part in the actual language a person uses.  There are exceptions from
 when people communicate from people from different areas.  This is my belief
 of how language is changed.
- - - - -
Mar16/94 22:00
54:38)  John Lawler:
 Oh, it's very clear that *which* language you use is determined 
 by where you are and who you're around when you learn it.  I'm
 sure Pinker (and Karen) aren't talking about that. Much of what he
 says is absolutely correct, except that we don't really know much
 about language at the level he's talking about -- genes and
 mental organs.  We know something about how the brain treats
 language, but it's no more a separate organ than walking or typing.
 There *are* organs -- the tongue, larynx, etc. that have evolved
 physically around language, or vice versa.  Most of these things are
 really co-evolutionary.  And no doubt the brain has grown special
 circuits and firmware that make it (and other things, too, no
 doubt) easier.  That *still* doesn't mean anybody has the foggiest
 idea what that firmware is like; very clearly, modern linguistic
 theory isn't about that.  Chomsky's an abstract modeller, and
 he's always maintained for the record that his syntactic theory
 isn't intended to represent what goes on in the mind.  By the way,
 if you're interested in exactly what the discussion's about, a
 good book is "The Linguistic Wars", by Randy Allen Harris.
 
 I can see I'm going to have to read Pinker, though I don't know
 how soon I can get to it.
- - - - -
Mar17/94 14:34
54:39)  Karen :
 Goodie, John!!! ;) I figured that you would come around, though "I'm going to
 have to read Pinker" seems a little far from enthusiastic. But, it is a
 start. A very readable book, you should be able to BREEZE through it. As for
 the others who said that dialect contributes to viewing Culture or whatever
 other pancreston cultural relativists invoke, as being responsible for
 language is really a wash, incidental,and rather meaningless. Some more
 Pinker for you all: "But though the language engine is invisible to the human
 user, the trim packages and color schemes are attended to obsessively.
 Trifling differences between the dialect of the mainstream and the dialect of
 other groups. . . are dignified as badges of "proper grammar."(***basically
 this is a moral distinction made  by the in-group with the power, to
 denegrate teh out-group) But they have no more to do with grammatical
 sophistication than the fact that people in some regions of the US refer to a
 certain insect as a dragonfly and. . .{others} refer to it as a darning
 needle. . .It is even a bit misleading to call Standard English a "language'
 and these variations 'dialects', as if there were some meaningful difference
 between them." Basically this is to say that if we are talking about language
 as anm evolved instinct, organ, what have you. . .the only part that is
 important is the ULTIMATE causation, the why. . .so, we all, regardless of
- - - - -
Mar17/94 14:34
54:40)  Karen :
 race, socioeconomic, age, culture, and LANGUAGE all possess the same template
 or computer program. Read: the EXACT same one. Due to language acquisition
 and its development with respect to all "cultural" or environmental
 infuences, a person acquires the given language of the said area. THis is a
 very flexible program that we have selected through over Millions of Years,
 and this accounts for the SURFACE differences in languages that we study
 today. the differences are called phenotypic plasticity (for you bio people--
 the "genes" do not change, it is just the differential interactions of these
 same templates with these  different environments that account for the
 phenotype (language, specific). -----Karen
- - - - -
Mar17/94 15:26
54:41)  John Lawler:
 Except that, as I mentioned, there isn't enough information to determine that
 the "template" is "the EXACT same one" in each case. That's a hypothesis, but
 it's by no means unilaterally supported by the data.
 
 In fact, if it's so flexible that it can account for any variations between
 languages, it becomes vacuous, and there's no difference between what
 Pinker's saying and saying that we have an "instinct" for language, which is
 surely no explanation.  The problem I have with this theory is that it's
 right in general, but we already knew that, and it seems very vague in
 detail.  Whenever there *are* any details, there seems to be no way to
 disprove them, because it's so flexible, you can just treat it as a special
 case.
- - - - -
Mar17/94 15:36
54:42)  Joe:
 It seems that I agree with much of what Pinker says.  Language IS a
 biological adaptation to communicate, and every person has the same ability
 to acquire it.  The name of a native language refers to its phenotype - the
 way it looks and sounds.  Which phenotype one acquires is a result of living
 in a certain environment.  In my opinion, however, Pinker is barking up the
 wrong tree if he is attempting to prove any of this with references to
 genetics or structures of the brain.  While he is doing that, I will be
 shaving with Occam's razor.  The fact that anyone who does not have a
 handicap of some sort is able to speak, regardless of which language, is
 enough proof for me to say that language ACQUISITION is due to biological
 heritage.  We are simply able to speak.  Pinker says language is used to
 communicate, and I agree.  But, each person is able to control WHICH words he
 or she says. Denial of this would be a fantastic notion, and if someone says
 otherwise, he or she had better be able to prove it.  With this in mind, it
 IS easy to see language as an art, when it is used as an art.  Isn't the
 purpose of poetry, in one sense, to arouse aesthetic imagination (if not,
 what is it?)? So, the use of language can easily fit into the definition of
 art that Karen's class has accepted (and which, I think, is the right one,
 though it may even have greater implications than "for one's self and
 others.").
- - - - -
Mar17/94 15:39
54:43)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Karen, I agree with much of what you said.  I would argue against the view
 that language abilities are completely different from other cognitive
 abilities.  The problem wiht arguing that there's a separate part of the
 brain for language is that people who argue this point of view can always
 say that they simply haven't found that part of the brain yet.  But, yes,
 creoles and sign language are fascinating examples of what appears ot be
 some kind of "need" to have language. (For those who don't know what she's
 talking about, pidgins are trade lanauges formed out of necessity, with
 small vocabularly and little if any inflectional morphology.  The children
 ---I mean, the pidgin develops into a creole over the generation.  Creoles
 have grammatical morphemes and larger vocabularies, are as structurally
 complex as other languages and have native speakers--the children of
 the pidgin speakers.  There's a similar example with sign language.)
- - - - -
Mar23/94 23:41
54:44)  Karen :
 Joe,
 I am glad that you see the validity in this theory of Pinker's, but 
 you lose me on your denial of physiological presence of a "language
 organ." Because it has not been found, is not to say that is does not exist.
 If language is an adaptation, it's template---or underlying program
 has to exist somewhere--how do you explain this?
 It may not exist in anyone place as Leonora pointed out---it is probably
 foolish to believe that there is a "center" for this---my guess is that 
 Language is richly encoded in many diverse manners and ways within the 
 brain itself, as is seen in the example if Broca's and Wernickes (sp)
 aphasia---a clear indication that language capacites are governed by 
 at least two structures. . .I still think that a "template" or "program"
 may exist for the development/acquisition of language. . .
 Well???? --K
- - - - -
Mar24/94 08:17
54:45)  John Lawler:
 The fact that it hasn't been found doesn't mean it doesn't exist; true.  But
 it *also* doesn't mean that it does, and therefore one cannot confidently
 assume (notice that this is an assumption, not a fact) that it does exist,
 and then base a theory on this assumption and call it "correct".
 
 Assumptions need to be checked regularly, and when they turn out to be wrong,
 they need to be dropped.  Even if they're useful to one's pet theory.
 Otherwise it's not science.
 
 If "Language is richly encoded in many diverse manners and ways within the
 brain itself", what evidence is there for a unifying, single, universal,
 pan-human, identical "template" or "program"?  Sounds too much like "Spiders
 spin webs because they have an instinct to spin them", or "...because that's
 the way God intended it." These aren't very helpful as explanations.  What's
 an instinct?  Whose God?  What's a program?  Surely you don't mean we've got
 FORTRAN in there?  Or do some people have Lisp and others BASIC?
- - - - -
Mar24/94 12:31
54:46)  Joe:
 Professor Lawler, is there any documented evidence (that you know of) of
 a group of people who seemingly *cannot* speak any language at all?  I
 realize that there are individuals who cannot speak, such as deaf mutes.
 However, these are exceptions to what *seems* to be a general rule:
 human beings are able to speak.  That is all the proof I need to say
 that we have some sort of ability, in virtue of our humanity, that is
 a result of some biological factor.  Humans seem to have a more advanced
 brain than any other animal.  Can this be disputed?  Because of our
 common ability to speak, it is not preposterous to say that we all HAVE
 this ability.  I hope I'm making sense.  I'm pretty tired.  I do not try
 to account for the actual "template" that we may or may not have,
 because I do not see it as necessary, when it is perfectly clear to me
 that we are able to speak because we are human, regardless of what
 particular language we use.  "Do not multiply entities without necessity."
- - - - -
Mar24/94 12:42
54:47)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Joe, deaf people may not speak, but they use sign langauge.  It is a "real"
 language; in other words, ihas a strucutre as complex as spoken language.
 The only people who have never learned to speak are those who are not 
 exposed to any language as children--that is, the rare cases of "feral"
 children or cases of abused children, such as Genie, who was kept isolated
 as a child.  She now speaks, but she has never really acquired English
 syntax very well.  
- - - - -
Mar24/94 14:58
54:48)  John Lawler:
 I'm not disagreeing with you, Joe.  Human language *is* biological.
 So is human upright posture, so is the vermiform appendix, so is
 binocular color vision, so is the opposable thumb.  No problem.
 Where I part company with Pinker is when he asserts that all languages
 are "the same".  There are indeed some resemblances among languages;
 but they are demonstrably not the same.  To assume they are is an
 argument from ignorance, not from evidence.  And to assert that there
 is a "program" that makes it so is to compound the error by
 multiplying entities even more.
- - - - -
Mar24/94 18:52
54:49)  Karen :
 Well, someone give me a grant, and I will begin my search! ;)
 John, are you accusing me of being unscientific because it is 
 "useful to my own pet theory?" I would like to think that I am 
 an honest scientist. . . I hope that I do not appear otherwise.
 Joe, I agree with you that language is a uniquely human adaptation.
 And for those a wee sensitive to such a PURPOSIVE idea, we can 
 replace adaptation with exaptation, or occurence, or. . .but I will
 not pretend that hurting pc sensibilities is something I am overly
 concerned with. So, assuming that this is a uniquely human property
 this is what even DEFINES our humanness, sets us apart from other
 species. . . well, if we and ONLY we possess this ability, and 
 we, and only we possess a highly developed neo cortex, that 
 coincidentally no other animals have. . . but we do, and that highly
 complex things like thought and speech are in our possession, while 
 all other "abilities" or "instincts" have been mapped and found in 
 all their physiological glory in their own respective places in the 
 brain in both animals and humans alike---and that they all correspond
 cross-species, it seems unbelievable that there would not be a 
 physiological "center(s)" or "organ(s)" [insert your own word] for 
 language. 
 As for language being highly variable in its underlying structure,
 at a very base level---my guess (though uneducated, surely ) is that 
- - - - -
Mar24/94 18:52
54:50)  Karen :
 there are PROFOUND cross-cultural similarities. If however, there
 are WIDE DIVERSE differences (though Pinker FLATLY denies this)
 I would argue that our Language PRogram (if  Imay be so bold)
 is highly plastic (flexible) --but this is not to deny that the 
 program exists.
 As for the question of whether there is some evidence for this 
 language ability. . . there is no "proof" that a mind exists
 (at least physiologically) but NOBODY wouls deny its existence.
 Though, no body denies the existence of language, either. . .
 So where does either come from? It is obvious some social facilitation
 is necessary to develop either. . . 
 Sory for the length, kareb
 (that is karen)
- - - - -
Mar24/94 23:17
54:51)  John Lawler:
 Oh, but arguments that start off "it seems unbelievable that there would not
 be a ..." are -- as noted -- statements about our beliefs, not about science.
 Unless science is a matter of faith? I mean, think about it... how could one
 disprove such a theory? What kind of evidence could convince someone who
 believed this that there was not, in fact, a special "language organ"?  And
 if one can't think of how something can be disproved, one is not dealing with
 a scientific hypothesis.
 
 And no, Karen, I'm not accusing you of being unscientific at all.  I'm
 accusing Pinker of being credulous.
 
 In fact, "mind" is a good example of something like this.  Not all that long
 ago, a whole lot of people *did* in fact, want to deny its existence, because
 their science (behaviorist psychology) didn't have any means of studying it. 
 This despite everybody's intuitive experience of it.  There are still people
 who want to deny that consciousness "exists" as such; i.e, some people claim
 it's epiphenomenal. Similar claims could be made about language, and they'd
 be easier to maintain, because while it's true enough that everybody speaks,
 it's quite rare (as we are demonstrating daily in this course :-) for anybody
 to have much insight about their language until their nose is rubbed in it. 
 Whereas *everybody* thinks and talks and wonders about thought and emotion
 all the time.
- - - - -
Mar24/94 23:17
54:52)  John Lawler:
 I'd suggest that the null hypothesis should be that humans may have some
 intrinsic "program" about how to learn in general, and that language learning
 is simply one example of many things we learn through this program.  After
 all, we don't *use* language as if it were a separate module of our brain; we
 integrate it with our body carriage, our vision, our facial expressions, our
 emotional life, our interpersonal relationships, and our general knowledge. 
 And we learn it in that context, too.  That's what I mean when I say there's
 no evidence (as opposed to beliefs, which there certainly are) for the
 "universality" of a language program as distinguished from everything else.
- - - - -
Mar25/94 11:12
54:53)  Tom:
 My belief is that while animals do speak a *spoken* language as we know it.
 Animals are able to communicate in a less complex manner such as using
 contextual clues and by making sounds that may not be picked up by humans.
- - - - -
Mar25/94 11:57
54:54)  John Lawler:
 Don't forget scent, Tom.  It's far more important as a social cue for animals
 than it is for us; though olfactory stimuli are still among the most complex
 and powerful ones we have.  Step into a grade school and smell the complex
 odor of cleaning compound, chalk dust, and sweaty clothing, and have your
 whole life up to the age of puberty pass in front of your eyes.
- - - - -
Mar25/94 13:28
54:55)  Joe:
 Along Tom's line, here's something I ran across recently:
            WELTANSCHAUUNG
    When, now and then, on a calm night I look up at the Stars, I reflect
 on the wonders of Creation, the unimportance of this Planet, and the possible
 existence of other worlds like ours.  Sometimes it is the self-poised and
 passionless shining of those serene orbs which I think of; sometimes Kant's
 phrase comes into my mind about the majesty of the Starry Heavens and the
 Moral Law; or I remember Xenophanes gazing at the broad firmament, and crying
 "All is One!" and thus, in that sublime exclamation, enunciating for the
 first time the great doctrine of the Unity of Being.
    But these Thoughts are not my thoughts; they eddy through my mind
 like scraps of old paper, or withered leaves in the wind.  What I really feel
 is the survival of a much more primitive mood - a view of the world which
 dates indeed from before the invention of language.  It has never been put
 into literature; no poet has sung of it, no historian of human thought has so
 much as alluded to it; astronomers in their glazed observatories, with their
 eyes glued to the ends of telescopes, seem to have had no notion of it.
    But sometimes, far off at night, I have heard a dog howling it at the
 moon.
 
 This is from a book entitled _More Trivia_, by Logan Pearsall Smith.  It is a
 remarkable book.  Professor Lawler, do you have any idea what the word
 "Weltanschauung" means?  At any rate, does anybody have any comments?
- - - - -
Mar25/94 14:30
54:56)  Karen :
 Joe, beautifu passage----what is the book about---trivia---or is the title
 misleading? 
 John, I agree with most of what you have put forth, from the black box
 of behavioralism to your interesting H0 (null Hyp). Well, I have a 
 question that stil remains. . . is ANYONE in this vast sea of academia 
 trying to locate a physiological area of language transmission? Do people
 in your field or others TRY to locate it. . .or are the academics of today
 content to shrug their shoulders and admit defeat? 
 I find it puzzling that an answer is so elusive---are people content
 to believe that the mind and language spontaneously APPEAR?
 Now, that is what I would consider unscientific. . .and it spanks of 
 laziness in the same manner that behavioralism (mind=black box because 
 it is too complicated to deal with) did half a century ago. 
 Even if we move away from say Pinker's more radical stance to your more 
 moderate and accomodating one, (John) there would still be the question
 of how does this highly plastic program operate, and if it is genetically
 transmitted as it would have to be-----there are still questions to be 
 reckoned with. . .
- - - - -
Mar25/94 16:15
54:57)  Mitchell:
 Joe, if you'll recall (or maybe not), welterschauung was a word I mentioned
 in the Word Item (item 12, I believe), and can be translated from German
 as "world-philosophy", although under item 12, you will see a very good
 in-depth analysis of the word by Prof. Lawler (I don't exactly remember
 which  reply it was.  Does anyone else know?)  Anyway, this book of yours
 _More Trivia_, sounds interesting (especially since trivia is one of my
 hobbies).  Could you perhaps let me see your copy of the book sometime
 (presuming  of course that you do have a copy) ???
- - - - -
Mar26/94 01:59
54:58)  Jin Ho:
 Ummm... I must agree Joe, that was wonderfully poetic writing.  It's very
 stirring.  When was that book written?
- - - - -
Mar26/94 11:38
54:59)  John Lawler:
 And here's how I found it (it's not Item 12, by the way):
 
 Do Next? find 'Weltanschauung'
 Found in item(s):
    16   54
 * these items? y
 These are now the * items.
  
 Do Next? r 16 nor
  
 Item 16    Jan11/94 21:46    11 lines    68 responses
 Mitchell              
 Word Forum
  
 Respond, Forget, or Pass: 'Weltanschauung'
 - - - - -
 Jan29/94 14:35
 16:58)  Mitchell:
  Here's a new word: weltanschauung (a comprehensive philosophy of the
  world or of human life)  In what sentence or situtation would a word
  like this prove useful?
- - - - -
Mar26/94 11:42
54:60)  John Lawler:
 Jan29/94 14:54
 16:59)  Rob:
 I couldn't make it to dinner last night because I was studying
 weltanschauung.
 - - - - -
 Jan29/94 16:00
 16:60)  John Lawler:
 It usually refers to an individual's personal philosophy. Although if you
 quote it in German (instead of just saying "personal philosophy"), you're
 also staking a claim to being either extremely well-educated or (if that is
 doubted) pretentious.
  
 So make *sure* you know about philosophy (and preferably can speak German)
 before you use the word.  For one thing, it's not easy for an English speaker
 to pronounce, and, in the nature of the word, the speaker has to pronounce it
 properly: the vowels are all easy, but the /w/ is [v], the "sch" is [s^], and
 you say *both* the /au/ (rhymes with "cow") *and* the "ung" (/U/ as in
 "hook") that comes right after.  The stress is on the first syllable, with a
 secondary stress on /s^au/.
  
 Remember, you asked.  This is, I realize, more than anyone would want to know
 about Weltanschauung.  However, answering questions is a prominent part of my
 *own* Weltanschauung.  :-)
- - - - -
Mar26/94 12:22
54:61)  Mitchell:
 My mistake--looks like it was under 16 instead.  (Useful technique there,
 JL.  I'll be sure to remember it.)
- - - - -
Mar28/94 09:33
54:62)  Joe:
 Thanks bunches, Mitchell and Professor Lawler.  _More Trivia_ is the second
 of two books, the first called _Trivia_ (which I haven't read).  It will be
 available in the Grad Library as soon as I return the copy I've borrowed.  In
 fact, there may be more than one of these books there.  Check MIRLYN: T= More
 Trivia will get you right there.  In response to your question, Mitchell, I
 do think the title of the book is a bit misleading.  It is a collection of
 short pieces like "Weltanschauung," so, in virtue of their "shortness,"
 perhaps they may seem trivial.  I heard of it in a book called _Romanticism
 Comes of Age_ by Owen Barfield, as I hear of so much from Barfield.  He
 describes it as "the second of those two remarkable little books, in which so
 many modern experiences are summed up with an odd mixture of suppressed
 pathos and cynical humor, and in such musical prose."  That seems right to
 me.  It was published in 1920 (I believe), but it seems up-to-date even now. 
 It's a nice breath of fresh air, completely honest, and only takes about an
 hour to read. Check it out.
- - - - -
Mar28/94 09:41
54:63)  John Lawler:
 Barfield is indeed a fine writer, one of C.S. Lewis's students -- perhaps
 his best one -- and his literary executor.  Here's what the UGLi has:
 
        Barfield Owen 1898
     1   Evolution Of Consciousness Studies In Polarity <1976>  (UL)
     2   Guidance In Esoteric Training <1972>  (UL)
     3   History Guilt And Habit <1979>  (UL)
     4   History In English Words <1962>  (UL)
     5   Light On C S Lewis <1966>  (UL)
     6   Owen Barfield On C S Lewis <1989>  (UL)
     7   Poetic Diction A Study In Meaning <1964>  (UL)
     8   Rediscovery Of Meaning And Other Essays <1977>  (UL)
     9   Romanticism Comes Of Age <1967>  (UL)
    10   Saving The Appearances A Study In Idolatry <1957>  (UL)
    11   Speakers Meaning <1967>  (UL)
    12   Unancestral Voice <1965>  (UL)
    13   What Coleridge Thought <1971>  (UL)
    14   Worlds Apart A Dialogue Of The 1960S <1964>  (UL)
- - - - -
Mar28/94 09:55
54:64)  Joe:
 Karen, I guess what it comes down to with me is this:  I just don't see the
 need to isolate a physiological structure responsible for language.  
 No one has done it yet with any conclusiveness, and even if someone does,
 what good does it do?  I don't believe it will change the way things ARE.
 Knowing precisely where (in the brain, presumably) the language template
 resides is not going to change the way we speak, or the ways in which we
 learn to speak.  If you can prove to me that it will have an actual, positive
 effect, then (perhaps!) I will join the search.  Is anyone at all familiar
 with Goethe's scientific writings?  I possess only cursory knowledge of them,
 but, seemingly, they contain the ingredients of a new method for natural
 science which I believe can be applied to Linguistics as well.  This method
 consists of, in short, observation.  Goethe aimed at a "descriptive
 morphology" to use Husserl's term to describe the appearances of plants and
 color and whatever else might be there.  That is to say that he took what he
 SAW, what was actually there, and attempted to gain a greater understanding
 of it by experiencing it from all sides, in all its various appearances.
 In essence, Goethe *became a part of* the phenomena he was studying.  Class
 time again.  Even though this is all very unclear as of yet, I have to go.
- - - - -
Mar28/94 12:11
54:65)  John Lawler:
 Goethe's method is pretty similar to what actually goes on in linguistics,
 Joe.
 
 Karen, there's no reason why someone might not want to look for the "language
 template", and no doubt some people are.  But, as Joe points out, how will
 they know when they've found it?  And what difference will it make?
 
 For comparison, what "templates" have already been found for other cognitive
 tasks?  One might assume that, for instance, facial recognition, mate
 selection, infant nurturance and education, ritual participation, and quite a
 few other cognitive sociocultural tasks might be construed to have
 "templates".  Culture is picked up every bit as unconsciously as language --
 indeed, they're intertwined -- so why pick on language?
- - - - -
Mar28/94 17:01
54:66)  Karen :
 There are an INFINETE amount of reasons to want to find this 
 template, or program, or whatever it is. . . think of the 
 ramifications of knowing what physiological areas are responsible 
 for the art of language. . . any deficits in language capacity 
 could be treated by knowing what areas to manipulate/fix.
 IF there are certain areas of the brain that are responsible 
 for elloquence, verbal ability, etc, etc, we could focus on them,
 manipulte them to allow more people to speak better, with more 
 fluidity. . .What if people with "faulty" programs are labled
 "disabled" when they could benefit immensely from some sort of 
 correctional surgery? And, MY reason: what is wrong with 
 knowledge for the sake of knowledge? Is there anyone out there
 who finds that even the acquisition of purposeless knowledge is
 self-reinforcing (a reward in itself)???
 Just to know. . . now that is aesthetic. . .
- - - - -
Mar28/94 18:27
54:67)  John Lawler:
 "Infinite"?  Surely you're being dramatic.  Nothing actually infinite
 actually exists, no?
 
 Of course, nothing is wrong with knowledge for the sake of knowledge. But
 it's *very* important to make sure that what is claimed to be knowledge is in
 fact knowledge and not just supposition.  That requires evidence.
 
 And -- likewise, of course -- everything in science is esthetic. Occam's
 Razor itself is an esthetic principle.  But that doesn't mitigate the need
 for evidence.  When anybody finds such a template and can point to it and
 demonstrate its existence, I will be even happier than you, Karen.  But I've
 been seeing this go on for 30 years, and nobody has ever been able to point
 to anything despite the most authoritative arguments imaginable.
- - - - -
Mar29/94 11:23
54:68)  Alana:
 This is going back to the 25th and Prof. Lawler's comment about social
 cues and scent being important for animals.  I work in a lab at the
 Neuroscience Building and am helping to analyze data that deals with
 just that.  By using animals, we are trying to find out what social cues
 help them get over jet lag quicker.  Smelling of the other animal and the
 cage, barrier that separates the animal, etcetera are proving to be very
 important.
- - - - -
Mar29/94 11:55
54:69)  John Lawler:
 Interesting article about that in the NYT Science section today.
- - - - -
Mar29/94 12:32
54:70)  Joe:
 Knowledge for the sake of knowledge...I guess that once more, I have to
 disagree.  In fact, I might even go so far (and it looks like I have) as to
 say that it is (PLEASE take no offense) a pretty selfish maxim.  Once you
 die, what becomes of your knowledge for the sake of knowledge?  Would that
 I had more time to explain this, but, alas, I don't.  And Professor Lawler,
 be careful when you sweepingly disaffirm the "infinite."  After all, you
 don't know, either, do you?
- - - - -
Mar29/94 15:02
54:71)  John Lawler:
 Of course I do.  Everybody does.  The infinite is defined as something that
 never ends.  Which means that in order to determine whether something
 physical is in fact infinite, we'd be at it forever, and would have to go the
 end of the universe as well.  Not exactly a practical method of verification
 for us mere mortals.
 
 Infinity is a mathematical concept, and in mathematics it's precisely defined
 and differentiated (did you know there are many different kinds of
 infinity?); but mathematics is entirely abstract and doesn't necessarily
 refer to physical reality.
 
 If you're referring to metaphysical concepts, like God, then we're not
 talking about verification in physical reality any more.  Different kettle of
 fish altogether.  And it's not entirely clear whether the concept of
 "infinite" in Christian theology, for instance, is the same as the one in
 Cantorian set theory.
- - - - -
Mar29/94 15:20
54:72)  Stephanie:
 Are you referring to the fact that there is, in thoery, a 
 "countable infinity"?
- - - - -
Mar29/94 16:03
54:73)  John Lawler:
 That's the smallest kind.  The number of integers, for instance, or
 of rational or algebraic numbers. There are *more* -- uncountably
 more, literally - real numbers than integers, even though both
 sets are infinite.
  
 But to understand why, and to believe it, you have to fiddle with
 your understanding of how counting works, and have some faith as
 well in proof by contradiction.
- - - - -
Mar29/94 17:44
54:74)  Stephanie:
 Yes, you do, and with the idea that perhaps "infinity" is
 more than just some unreachable "place" in any
 number set. That it may also define something measurable, but
 beyond the realm of human computation
- - - - -
Mar30/94 15:50
54:75)  Karen :
 Well, about the dramatic comment, I resoundingly side with Joe.
 Who knows if there are infinete purposes? If we continue to 
 evolve, we continue to acquire more cranial capacity (neo-cortal
 capacity was highly selected in the past, and I see no reason 
 for arrested develoment or relaxation of the selective process,
 provide the environment styas constant. Which incidentally, if the 
 environment does change, we will be dealing with problems much
 grander in size and scope than the issue of a language template).
 Joe, as for your other comment about knowledge. I am puzzled.
 Are you a utilitarian? I wonder this because you say that knowledge
 for the sake of knowledge seems like a "selfish maxim." It seems that 
 you dismiss this line of thinking because you reject teh selfishness
 of self-learning if it does not benefit others (directly, because I 
 will argue that ANY knowledge, regardless of how selfish, benefits 
 others---we are social creatures, and all we do has either direct 
 or indirect ramifications on others). You seem to reject this on
 moral grounds. . .so what if the knowledge dies with you? I 
 believe that we are ALL alone, and as J.C (Joseph Conrad)
 points out: "In the end, we live and we dream, alone." ---Heart of Darkness
 (and is supposed to be AS in the above quote).
 So, if we really are alone--what other kind of knowledge really 
 exists? Curiously yours, Karen
- - - - -
Mar30/94 18:10
54:76)  Tom:
 I have to think that most Knowledge that we obtian in everyday life is
 knowledge for the sake of knowledge.  If the knowledge that person obtians
 doesn't relate to there occupation or to academic accomplishments>  Then what
 purpose does it serve for society.  By reading a news paper we gain knowledge
 about athletic events,crimes that people have comitted along with other
 things.  This can be considered knowledge that has no real benifit to
 society. What about the knowledge that we pick from just existing a actively
 participating participating in society.  Does this really benifit society as
 a single entity in the world as a whole.  I believe that it does because we
 are able to use the knowledge we gain to make informed decisions.  And the
 knowledge that we gain just by obtianing knowledge for the sake of gaining
 knowledge can actaully help us and society.  The knowledge that we *learn* 
 by this manner is not the knowledge that I am refering to but rathee the
 techniques and rational thinking used to obtian this knowledge.  Just my
 input.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 19:01
54:77)  Alana:
 Although the knowledge we gain from everyday experience such as reading
 the newspaper or watching tv seems to be trivial and just for the sake
 of knowledge, I believe that it is more than that.  In living in the
 present, we are creating a past for the future generations to look at as
 we look at things from the past.  Anything we know could help future 
 generations understand us and learn from our mistakes.  For example,
 reading about crimes and knowing the laws could help future people better
 their world by our mistakes.  Does that make any sense because it didn't
 come out quite the way I wanted it to.
- - - - -
Mar31/94 07:33
54:78)  John Lawler:
 "Knowledge" is a pretty vague concept, after all.  Everytime we wake up in
 the morning, knowledge is flooding us and keeps it up 'til we go to sleep
 (and maybe even dreams are "knowledge"?).
 
 If you restrict the concept of "knowledge" to "things you learn at school",
 then you're talking about social utility of the products of a social system,
 not unlike (say) the efficiency of law enforcement in preventing underage
 drinking.
 
 Naturally, that's not very high.  No social system is very efficient; they're
 all compromises with multiple purposes, and they're far too complex for any
 of those purposes to have dominate for long.  That's why we call them
 "systems", after all.
 
 Now, as to the underlying question (which I take to be the moral answer to
 the question: "Should we allow ourselves to satisfy our curiosity?), I will
 maintain that the overwhelming lesson of history and evolution is that we
 should.  It's not only useful to ourselves and others in the long run to be
 curious and to attempt to find things out (or should that be "find out
 things"? :-), but it's also very silly for anybody to believe that they can
 predict the utility of any piece of information in advance of learning it. 
 Most pieces of information aren't useful themselves in any linear fashion;
 they're useful eventually in informing our thought patterns, and habits and
 modes of thought are quite analogous to muscles -- we can stretch and build
- - - - -
Mar31/94 07:33
54:79)  John Lawler:
 them by exercise of the appropriate sort.
 
 As well worry about whether each flex of the muscle is doing immediately
 valuable economic work, instead of improving our health and muscle tone and
 ultimately building up our strength and fitness.
- - - - -
Mar31/94 15:39
54:80)  Karen :
 John,
 I think for once we are in complete agreement. A nice feeling, but
 a little boring, because I like to try to provoke you. ;)
 I think your comment about "it being silly to think that anybody can
 predict the utility of any piece of information in advance of learning it"
 was a very eloquent way to explain what I was stumbling around with.
 But, Joe, you remain silent. . .Well???!
 PS, JL, you may be interested to know I have taken a reprieve from my
 armchair theorizing and am actually following up on some possible 
 quantitative studies. My aunt is the director of the Aphasia clinic here,
 and I am parasitzing her knowledge on the subject. She had some interesting
 things to say regarding Pinker (and Chomsky!) and we may just try to find 
 this template---- ;)
 I will be here for the next five years, as it turns out. 
 My big question is this: how can one tie in my language interests 
 (obviously evolutionary and physiologically based) with the study of 
 individual differences (personality psych). Is it possible that wne
 there are differential acquistitional levels of langauge, say during the 
 critical period (for developing language)?
- - - - -
Mar31/94 16:29
54:81)  John Lawler:
 Maybe Joe's busy. :-)
 
 I'll bet she had some interesting things to say, all right.
 
 I'm glad somebody is thinking about correlating language acquisition
 and personality variables.  It's very rarely been done; most research
 starts off with the assumption that everybody's the same and then
 finds that (surprise!) everybody is the same.  Whereas personality
 research (though a very low-status pursuit among cognitive types)
 starts off by noticing just how different everybody is.  I'd like
 to see "top-down" and "bottom-up" strategies correlated with some
 reasonably diverse personality categories, like Myers-Briggs, for
 instance.
- - - - -
Mar31/94 17:07
54:82)  Joe:
 Karen, I'm here!  Cut me some slack! :)  Okay, on with the show.  First, I
 will attempt to explain what I am referring to when I use the word
 "knowledge."  One may refer to any bit of information that one picks up
 as "knowledge," in one commonly-accepted usage of this word.  I espouse
 more of a Platonic epistemology.  On my view, knowledge results from
 participation in what might be referred to as the object of knowledge.
 Yet, necessarily, there can be no object of knowledge if it and the
 "knower" are in a sense united.  Knowledge is a break down of the subject
 and object barrier, a unity.  It is an EXPERIENCE, in the fullest sense
 of the word.  Further, it is an UNDERSTANDING of that experience, wherein
 one is able to grasp what lies beneath the "object."  It takes one to the
 other side of the appearance, and allows one to see what is represented
 by the sensible phenomenon that one "knows."  (PHEW!  This is too hard
 for me, eh?  
  
 Utilitarianism?  Bah! :)  But seriously, no.  I'm not a utilitarian.  It's
 a system that promotes happiness but not unity, which is, I think, a much
 loftier and harder to reach goal.  It is a goal which *includes*
 happiness, but more importantly, lets one actually *know* happiness (see
 above for details).
  
 So, back to knowledge for the sake of knowledge, or satisfying one's
 curiosity.  Anything we learn is good.  But, this does not make it
 "knowledge" (under my definition).  One who discovers something "new,"
- - - - -
Mar31/94 17:07
54:83)  Joe:
 or rather, becomes able to describe and/or control something that was
 previously obscured, may choose to withhold information from the rest,
 possibly out of spite, or more likely, out of a lack of insight into the
 "utility" of this "discovery."  Even more likely, one may decide to
 publicize the "discovery" anyway.  All the while, the person will not
 even "know" what he or she is doing!  For instance, one may learn a lot
 about AIDS, and become able to describe and/or control it.  Yet, only
 the person that has the disease will be able to "know" AIDS.  So, in
 order for an observer to understand it, the observer must try in some
 way break down the wall between himself/herself and the afflicted.
 Once, and if, this is accomplished, then one can predict the utility of
 it, for only then will one truly understand it.
  
 As for "thought patterns" and "rational thinking," they are habits that
 need to be broken if one wishes to acquire "knowledge."  They are good
 for other things.
  
 Those last two sentences sure sound crazy, don't they?
  
 Karen, do you really believe in what you quoted from Conrad?  I used to
 think the same thing.  Then I found that it doesn't have to be like that
 if I don't want it to be like that.  Though it sure seems like that
 sometimes, ultimately, I think it's a dead-end street.
  
 Sorry (but not really) about the length, and for any flies there may be
 in this ointment.  Thanks for your patience (if you didn't skip all this).
- - - - -
Mar31/94 17:07
54:84)  Joe:
  
 Later:  "Self-knowledge:  Huh?"  :)
- - - - -
Apr03/94 23:03
54:85)  Karen :
 First thing is first: JL, I am glad that you agree about the 
 personality stuff; too few scientists realize that individual differences 
 are as important as they are. . .and it seems foolish NOT to apply this 
 to language acquisition. My aunt is mailing me the reading list, so 
 when I have aquainted myself with it, I will give you the scoop.
 Ah, Joe you are alive! ;)
 I was beginning to think that you were going to opt out of this 
 friendly little discussion. . .
 I follow what you say, though I still don't see why you would object
 to self-knowledge. . . though, I am interested in your comment about 
 "anything we learn is good."WHY????
 I think that the "object" so to speak, is entirely morally neutral, 
 that it is our lense, our "process of learning" and what we do with 
 that subsequent knowledge that determines its "value."
 But you seem fairly Platonically schooled, so I am sure you have 
 something to say about the object having "inherent" worth.
 Are you into Aristotelian (sp) classicism???? ;0
 _-----k
- - - - -
Apr04/94 14:50
54:86)  Joe:
 Karen, I was joking in my little "self-knowledge" quip (see #84), if that's
 what you were referring to.  It's so hard to explain that I just didn't feel
 like going into it (and really, I still don't - I'm tired, eh?).  BUT, I
 can assure you, I'm not opposed to it.  My understanding (!) of it is such
 that it is a necessary part of what to me is the ultimate goal.  When I am
 more able to think, I may be able to explain more of what I mean.
  
 "Anything we learn is good" was the wrong thing for me to say.  I should've
 said that I don't object to the investigation of phenomena, which essentially
 is what science is all about.  However, to call the results of an
 investigation "knowledge" is wrong.  "To know" is not the same thing as
 "to describe."
  
 "Inherent worth?"  I'm not quite sure what you mean.  However, I do think
 that some things have inherent POTENTIAL.  Perhaps realized potential
 leads to worthiness.
  
 What is Aristotelian classicism?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 18:44
54:87)  Karen :
 I agree about the semantics of to know and describe. Too often they
 are used interchangeably. . . I fear that I am also guilty of this 
 from time to time. . .
 Everything has inherent potential. . . why would somethings and not
 others? So we are really back to the issue of inherent worth.
 All things ARE until they are acted upon. . .something has REALIZED potential
 if it was acted upon in a positive manner.
 Let's take a book written in Japanese. . .it may be full of potential and 
 very worthy, but because I do not posess the knowledge to read the Japanese,
 it is WORTHLESS to me. . . but may still be full of potential to a different
 agent. . .
 Well, I have a related question for you. While I am in full agreement with 
 you that the field of science should be permitted to investigate ANY and ALL
 phenomena, where do you draw the line? Those with political agendas will
 unfortunately interfer in the empiricists realm. . .
 For instance, the former pro-life regime in the USA banned fetal testing 
 research. . . a University in Canada is trying to fire a professor who has 
 tenure on the basis that his research is unethical (he studies racial 
 differences in intelligence). I have a friend who is a behavioral geneticist
 at Northwestern, who told me that there are scientists in this field who 
 are trying to cross the DNA of chimps and humans to make a hybrid being. . .
 Which in effect may engineer a slave race. . .
- - - - -
Apr04/94 18:44
54:88)  Karen :
 As a scientist, I want ALL open to me, but as a pragmatist, realize that 
 in a lot of arenas, it just is not possible. . .
 As for the Aristotelian classicism---can it wait? I, too, am rather weary. ;)
- - - - -
Apr11/94 14:32
54:89)  Joe:
 Karen, I guess I wince at areas of research that attempt to manipulate
 things that occur naturally, as if these researchers had any business
 playing with these things.  I this can be traced to a lack of understanding
 of what the stuff they're fooling with is really all about.  That whole
 mess with the hybrid being makes me nauseous.  If they can play God, why
 can't I?  The point I am trying to make is that NO ONE should be allowed
 to manipulate things that he/she does not understand.  Once an understanding
 is reached, I don't think one will attempt to change what is already there.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 02:11
54:90)  Tara:
 I agree Joe.  I think that it is one thing to use expirimentation to try
 and come up with a cure for cancer, but another thing to use science to 
 create anything that is not so *necessary*.  Really, just why is it
 important to create a cross between a human and a chip- will this 
 benifit anything?  Besides doesn't science already tell us that we come
 from monkeys?  And so won't these hybrid beings eventually evole into
 people anyway??   
   sorry 'bout the typos
- - - - -
Apr12/94 09:54
54:91)  John Lawler:
 Actually, Tara, I kind of like the serendipitous results -- a cross between a
 human and a chip is an interesting thing to contemplate :-)
 
 I suppose the result would be either an AI with a human body, or a crunchy
 ranch-flavored person, depending on what kind of chip one starts with, eh?
 
 Sorry, couldn't resist.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 15:08
54:92)  Anand:
 I disagree Joe.  It is only through experimentation and so-called
 looking at the unnecessary do we find something that benefits
 humanity (cross only out but there is a chance).  By understanding
- - - - -
Apr12/94 15:35
54:93)  Joe:
 So, Anand, you call this "scientific" attempt to create a genetic freak
 "necessary"?  I would rather call it a gross mismanagement of nature.
 Science, in my opinion, is sometimes too big for its britches.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 15:46
54:94)  John Lawler:
 Well, that's not a question that Science can answer, is it? It's political,
 if not moral.  And science (even with a capital "S") doesn't have a lot to
 say about morals.
 
 So y'all need to define your terms and lay your presuppositions on the table
 if you're gonna get anywhere with this.  Otherwise it's not an argument, but
 just a quarrel.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 16:02
54:95)  Joe:
 Replace the word "science" with the word "scientists" in #93 and you will
 have what I meant to say.  And you're darn right that science can't answer
 this itself.  But who asked it to?  This is our little discussion, political
 ethical, or scientific though it may be.  Perhaps I also should have said,
 "WHY is this necessary?"
- - - - -
Apr12/94 16:55
54:96)  Karen :
 Wow, quite a little stir. Hmm. . . where to start. I am rather puzzled and
 surprised by this hypocritcial discussion of morality. If we can explore
 cures for cancer (the mutation of cells at an accelerated rate occurs in the
 body and is,then, an organic occurence, which is also a natural
 occurence----READ: natural!!!) then a changing this biological occurence is
 *UN-natural* because we interfered. This is the EXACT line of *reasoning*
 that a few fellow conferees suggested that we not do---- After all, we
 shouldn't play God and manipulate life and death. . . It seems to me that all
 of you are arbitrarily applying YOUR own code of ethics and deciding what is
 moral or not. . . It is a mistake to believe that what occurs "naturally" is
 what is "right" or "good."  Natural selection did not choose what exists
 using moral principles, it selected what was best adapted to survive in the
 immediate environment. . . I could give hundreds of examples of this, but let
 me just illustrate using one. There is a lot of evidence in the field of 
 sociobiology that men possess rape specific cognitive mechanisms as an
 evolved trait. This would make evolutionary sense---those men that had the
 most access to reproductive opportunities will differentially reproduce---so
 men who rape have more access to woment than those who do not. Thus the trait
 is passed along, and spreads rapidly through the population. But to say that
- - - - -
Apr12/94 16:55
54:97)  Karen :
 this is *good* because it occurs in nature. . . This would be a huge
 misconception. So, we need to decide what IS good, surely natural selection
 does not care---- But if science is soley concerned with the pursuit of
 knowledge of describing what exists, what is possible--- And morality and
 social law are concerned with normative and descriptive theories---where is
 the compromise? Who cna tell the scientist that they cannot explore genetic
 engineering of animals, but they CAN explore that of plants? It seems to me
 that morality does not exist---what is really the difference? Tara, as for
 the evolution stuff about chimps and humans. . .they possessed a COMMON
 ancestor many millions of years ago. . they diverged from each other, and we
 DID NOT evolve from chimps. . . natural selection works on last year's model,
 and there is no way that one can predict the path thay (that) selection will
 take. . . if a scientist genetically engineered a hybrid between the 2
 species, who KNOWS what would happen. . .
- - - - -
Apr13/94 00:41
54:98)  Tara:
 I never said that naturally occuring things are good and unnatural occurances
 are bad.  Cancer is obviously natural and bad, and so it demands the work and
 study of scientists.  I don't think anyone has a problem interferring with
 natural occurances that are bad.  The problem (for some of us) results from
 scientists creating unnatural life, where the resulting GOOD or BAD is
 unknown.  Is there a real benifital purpose?!  I don't see it. I just don't
 think I could justify creating something just for the hell of it. But if it
 were to counter something destructive in our world then GREAT! Karen, you
 said that science would be limited if it could just describe what exists and
 pursue knowledge.  I think that you are including using the knowledge you
 obtain with the pursuit of knowlegde- if not, then it is indeed limited, but
 isn't everything?!  But I think that this whole discussion is based on *how*
 the obtained knowledge is used, and personally I think that science would be
 limited if it wasted its resources on pursuing an unnecessary goal, like
 hybrid beings (people aren't dying because we don't have those critters)
 instead of concentrating our knowledge of science on a greater understanding
 of what exists and how to prolong that life.
   Thanks for explaining the evolution thing.  I kinda think it's silly
 though.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 08:39
54:99)  Laurie:
 What is natural is individual, not mass.  In my work as a Yoga instructor
 often students will say a particular movement is "un-natural".  of course
 they are always right, because they are speaking about thier own interior
 experience.  My response is too glibly, we're not after "natural" here 
 we're practicing towards the Sublime Super-Natural.  Are we in our 
 discipline of an ancient spiritual practice "playing God" I think we are,
 my personal opinion is that God wants us all to grow beyound todays
 potential and expand ourselves evermore. As to how lkto do so safely, 
 with consideration towards the entire universal balance of Order, well
 then, that's where we blunder and look to the wise.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:03
54:100)  Stephanie:
 I agree with Taras statement, "science would be limited if it wasted its s
 resoursed on pursuing an unnecessary goal..." It is too easy to
 use knowledge for evil, however, another problem that mut be
 addressed is the difference between a short term advancement and
 a long term disaster/advancement. Sre, bioligically engineering
 fruit or something of that nature my be harmful...may
 upset the natural evolutionary cycle somehow...but it
 may end world hunger....the long term benefits may far outweigh
 any of the other things. 
- - - - -
Apr14/94 00:24
54:101)  Joe:
 Gosh.  I'm damn near afraid to respond.  :)
 
 No, not really.  Okay.  Karen, where is the hypocrisy involved in this
 discussion?  Cancer does seem to be a naturally occurring phenomenon.
 However, the analogy to genetic engineering cannot be drawn unless we come to
 find out that we ourselves are the *cause* of cancer.  And perhaps we are. 
 Of course, this sort of causality isn't easy to isolate, and there is no way
 I can do it if asked to.  Still, I have my "reasons" (though they are not at
 all "reasonable," if you get my drift) for thinking this.  If this is the
 case, we have a duty to correct our error(s).  As everyone is able to see,
 cancer is merciless.  It does not care who it kills.  Once it is set in
 motion, someone has to try to stop it.  I realize I'm in over my head. 
 Nevertheless, this is what I think.
 
 Ethics.  Yes, I am one of those who has been projecting his own code onto
 this discussion.  None of you want to hear this, because it is, in the eyes
 of the PC police, closed-minded.  However, I feel that whatever code I am
 actually trying NOT to project is the right one.  Yes, that means I believe
 in certain absolutes.  If you analyze your own beliefs (any of you), you will
 find that, try as you might, you cannot avoid doing the same.  A belief that
 there are no absolutes is itself an absolute.
 
 Is "the natural" the same as "the good"?  I think that "the natural" goes far
- - - - -
Apr14/94 00:24
54:102)  Joe:
 beyond "the good."  What does "good" mean anyway?  The stuff that other stuff
 ought to be like?  The stuff that ought to BE?  The stuff that behaves as it
 should?  When we call something "good," don't we sort of wish that everything
 else had the sort of quality that the thing in question has? It seems to me
 that "good," if we think about it, is what we would at least WISH to be "the
 natural."  Ultimately, "good" itself has to come from what someone thought
 WAS "the natural," or it wouldn't exist.  It seemingly MUST refer to
 SOMETHING!
 
 Charge!  I'm hitting my stride, eh?  Yeah, sure.  Well, the next thing I MUST
 address is that comment on the "rape-specific cognitive mechanism" that males
 may possess.  ARE YOU KIDDING?  I simply MUST see this evidence.  Please,
 take no offense, Karen, I know you have respect for other peoples' opinions,
 even mine...Right? :)  The problems I have with this idea are as follows: 1)
 Even the label given to this thing is enough to say that perhaps the concept
 has some flaws.  It's like the whole language template thing again- one
 person says it exists, and I say "What is it, where is it, and why?" The
 first two questions are unanswerable in any specific terms, suggesting that
 this is still just an idea.  Karen, you suggested that the third question may
 be answerable in terms of natural selection. 2) The concept of natural
 selection is a result of our projection of our own consciousness back onto
- - - - -
Apr14/94 00:24
54:103)  Joe:
 the various consciousnesses (whew!) of history. This cannot be done if one
 expects to reach conclusions that have any real validity.  We need something
 to explain the theory of evolution because it is, at its base, irrational. 
 It just doesn't fit with the scientific worldview of mechanical causality
 (which holds that nature is unconscious and totally separate from humanity,
 operating "mechanically").  So we invent something that, for us, explains it
 mechanically.  Yet, we were not there when it was happening! 3) And to say
 that this is "rape-specific cognitive mechanism" is an "evolved" trait?  Try
 "devolved."  Notice all the animals around us that proceed as if they might
 indeed possess this trait. 4) The man with the most access to women is the
 most likely to rape.  Prove this.  And what do you mean by "access"?  I'm
 around women all the time. So are alot of us.  If you think that I'm a likely
 candidate, you've got quite the wrong idea.  The capacity to rape is a
 disease, not a trait.  And it too can be cured.  I am dreadfully sorry about
 the length of this.  And please accept my apologies if I have offended
 anyone.  When I get around to speaking my opinion, I don't like to mince
 words.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 11:11
54:104)  John Lawler:
 Hey, how did we get from metaphysics to rape?  I missed that.  Rational
 discussion (which is one of the things we are in college to learn and
 to practice) lays out all the presumptions and defines all the terms
 at the outset, so we don't get sandbagged with emotional charges
 like rapine.
 
 As for the idea that "good" must refer to something, just because
 the word exists, Joe, I refer you to 2000 years of philosophical
 argumentation that *still* hasn't settled that.  Now that everybody
 knows something more about how English works, of course, I expect
 nobody will really fall for that kind of argument, though.  Otherwise
 such phrases as "National Socialism" or "The Dictatorship of the
 Proletariat" or racial slurs or other things can be taken to refer
 to something real just because *they* exist, too.  Not a terrifically
 great way to run an intellectual life.
 
 For further remarks on this topic, type "premises" at the DO NEXT?
 prompt.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:08
54:105)  Joe:
 Well, excuuuuse meeee!  It's a pretty good thing that I'm secure in what
 I am saying, with well-grounded arguments for these things, even if it
 (or they) do not appear on the network precisely as I would like them to
 (after all, this conference is not designed for one to write one's
 entire "weltanschauung" on it).  Otherwise, I might take offense at what
 you said, Professor Lawler.  I'm running my intellectual life just fine,
 thank you, with at least *some* "knowledge" about how English works, which,
 to speak truthfully, hasn't drastically increased with your last response.
 The difference between "good" and "National Socialism" and similar labels
 is that "good" is a feeling, an emotional response to something that has
 a certain quality, and in my opinion, something that is "good" objectively.
 "National Socialism" is a label for a group of things that do not exist
 apart from someone picking them up, carrying them around, and giving them
 a convienent name.  Sure.  I can't prove to you that "good" is objective,
 and is always around, but neither can you prove to me that it's not.  And
 what about this?  When one says to another that something is good, does
 that mean this something is undefinable?  If so, why use the word "good"
 at all?
  
 "2000 years of philosophical argumentation"...  Just because they (many of
 whom actually HAVE settled what "good" is to their own satisfaction) are
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:08
54:106)  Joe:
 still arguing, is that any reason for saying that ALL of us have to join
 them?
  
 In addition, doesn't rationality have its limits?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:31
54:107)  Henry:
 Never mind rationality, how about this item!
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:50
54:108)  Joe:
 Sorry, Henry.  Feel free to skip it.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:04
54:109)  John Lawler:
 "good" is not a feeling.  "good" is a judgement.  Which is made
 personally on the basis of personal values.  And is therefore not
 available for common verification.  Anybody you feel impressed by
 (Jerry Falwell, Adolf Hitler, John XXIII, Henry Kissinger) can convince
 you that something is "good" or "bad".  As I pointed out in lecture
 today, "good" is correlated with a lot of metaphors, but not wi th
 any real verifiable reality.
 
 And if you think "feelings" are verifiable, I suggest you try to
 verify "love", or even "heartburn".
- - - - -
Apr15/94 02:57
54:110)  Tara:
 HI
  I'm a little confused, but it shouldn't last.
 Ok, professor, you are saying that "good" isn't a feeling, but a judgement
 which *acts* like a feeling, because neither of them are verifiable?
 Yeah?  Am I interpreting this right?  What are some of the differences,
 that wouldn't make it a feeling?  I kind of understand, because even when
 someone says "I feel good,"  'GOOD' in itself is not a feeling like 
 happiness, but I just don't concretely grasp the difference.  Can you help?
   
 Also, Karen, come back!!
- - - - -
Apr15/94 12:18
54:111)  John Lawler:
 Technically, "good" is called a "syncategorematic" term (whew!  throw that
 into a conversation and watch it die :-), which means that it doesn't apply
 to any particular category, but rather is applicable to anything. This isn't
 true of emotions, for instance.  They're their own kind of thing, and we feel
 them and (hope we) describe them.  Though describing emotions with words is
 not unlike trying to paint a sunset with Crayolas.  And emotions are
 generally what we mean by "feeling".
 
 If you look a little closer, "feel" itself is really a term that refers to
 sensations of one kind or another; it specifically refers to the sense of
 touch ("Feel this sample"), but by metaphor is applied to many other internal
 "sensations", most especially emotions.  ("I feel sorry/happy/angry")
 
 And by further extension, we can "feel good", which means we experience
 pleasure.  That's pretty straightforward, but then we add morals and
 esthetics and get things like "a good movie", or "a good defense", or "a good
 meal", or "a good person".  Which are *very* complex concepts (which we
 assign you to write papers about in some classes, in fact, just to get you to
 think about *how* complex they are), and not at all natural or sensory. 
 Since they're metaphors, rather than things we can all agree on (and even
 agreeing on sensory matters is difficult -- Fillmore suggests that the best
 definition of "heartburn" he's come up with is "what I feel after I've
- - - - -
Apr15/94 12:18
54:112)  John Lawler:
 consumed three raw onions and a large Coke" :-), their precise denotation is
 hard to come by, and people's understandings of them vary.  Sometimes they
 vary so much that they fight about them.  Religious wars are the messiest
 ones, as we can see in N. Ireland, Bosnia, Sudan, Israel, or Tibet -- to name
 only a few.
 
 That's why I caution caution about such matters as what's "good" and "bad". 
 Beware of anyone who wants to tell you what's good or bad and wants you to
 believe them out of faith.  They may be right.  But so may anybody else with
 the same justification and a different set of goods and bads.  You're here in
 college to learn to make up your *own* mind.  That's what Americans are
 supposed to do, and that's what educated people are supposed to do.  Don't
 give up your rights to anybody, scientist, expert, authority, politician, or
 preacher. They're all fallible just like you, and you don't owe them your
 faith. Just your attention, courtesy, and best analytic judgement.
 
 (set sermon=off)
- - - - -
Apr15/94 16:26
54:113)  Joe:
 I agree with most of what you said, Professor Lawler.  In fact, the only part
 I disagree with is that two people may base two different conceptions of
 "right" on the same justification, and both be right.  I admit failure at
 being able to justify this.  I really wish I could, because I believe in
 this very strongly (as most of you have probably noticed).  However, I
 urge all of you to read C. S. Lewis's _The Abolition of Man_.  In my opinion,
 he is able to do it.  As Professor Lawler said, don't give up your rights to
 anyone, including this book, if you decide to read it.  However, read it with
 an open mind and just see if he what he says is plausible.  It's also not a
 very long book.  It's worth the approximately two hours of reading.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 16:31
54:114)  Karen :
 I would like to apologize to anyone who has taken offense at my probing 
 controversial issues.  I would also like to apologize to those of you 
 who view taking a stance or articulating opinions to be narrow minded and 
 dogmatic. That is surely your perogative, but expounding is mine.
 I am deeply saddened that by trying to facilitate a little conversational
 exchange, one gets attacked for trying to learn. 
 By hiding behind PC rhetoric or blindly accepting status quo beliefs one 
 surely avoids conflict. This is true.
 But but by doing so, one also sacrifices their oportunity to explore and 
 ultimately to grow. Therein lies the tragedy. 
- - - - -
Apr15/94 18:23
54:115)  Tara:
 Geeze, Karen, I like your contraversial issues.  And I think it's great
 that you can take a stand, support it and remain stong there, even 
 among opposing views.  
- - - - -
Apr16/94 11:00
54:116)  John Lawler:
 Conflict is painful, and rarely leads to useful discussion.  Argument, on the
 other hand, frequently does.  But not unless all parties concerned are really
 interested in presenting their views fairly, and really interested in
 understanding others' views.  It's best when the parties also have open
 minds, and are at least willing to admit the possibility that their viewpoint
 might not be the best possible one; but that's not a requirement for good
 discussion, merely for growth and learning.
 
 Joe, I didn't say "two people may base two different conceptions of 'right'
 on the same justification, and both be right." I said that anybody may be
 right, but so might anybody else with the same justification [by which I
 referred to "faith"] but a different set of goods and bads.  Obviously this
 is not a clear enough formulation.  Let me rephrase it.
 
 People with a particular brand of moral, scientific, ethical, religious,
 social, or religious goods to sell often try to persuade others of the
 correctness of their product by appealing to faith.  And they may in fact be
 correct, though their methods are suspect.  But it's obvious that *any* set
 of beliefs can use this method of "justification", regardless of the
 intrinsic truth or falsity of the beliefs.  And -- as you point out, Joe --
 not all of them can be correct.  Thus faith fails as a test for discussion,
 simply because peoples' beliefs vary.  We knew that already, and further
- - - - -
Apr16/94 11:00
54:117)  John Lawler:
 discussion on that basis ("Believe *me*!", "No, believe *me*!") rarely sheds
 any further light (note vision metaphor).
 
 This is a vicious circle as long as faith is accepted as a social
 justification. It *is*, of course, the principal and best personal
 justification; but it's not much help in communicating honestly or usefully
 about one's beliefs. One needs to articulate them and figure out exactly
 *why* one believes them. That can be communicated.  Though it's difficult.
 That's what Lewis did. And Bertrand Russell.  And the Dalai Lama, for that
 matter.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 14:06
54:118)  Joe:
 I agree that these beliefs can be communicated, and I can even say why I
 believe what I believe, given enough time.  I'm not sure I've gone about it
 the right way on the confer, as it seems that you, at least, think I have
 failed.  Unfortunately, even if I were able to articulate my beliefs
 properly, they would still most likely be regarded as unjustified.  Perhaps
 I am wrong in thinking this.  But, since I can't point to an object and
 say, "There is my proof!", some might want to forbid me from making any
 claims at all as to what is "good/bad/right/wrong/etc."  Take Russell for
 instance.  He was an atheist.  Someone asked him what he would say to God
 if he ever met Him, regarding why Russell didn't believe in Him.  Russell's
 response:  "Not enough evidence!"  We live in the same world as Russell,
 and some people believe in God, and some don't.  The point is that "evidence"
 or "proof" is such a relative term.  Those who don't accept one person's
 "proof" will probably reject the person's belief, calling it rash,
 unjustified, possibly even offensive.  Yet, will that person give it up?
 I don't think it's very likely.  And when the person is seen to be ignoring
 criticism, he/she will appear even more closed-minded than before, and
 those who object to his/her beliefs may even (unknowingly?) ostracize the
 person.  In an attempt to be open-minded, their minds will close.
  
 And then there's the one who holds these questionable beliefs in the first
- - - - -
Apr16/94 14:06
54:119)  Joe:
 place.  I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY that this person should listen very carefully
 and non-judgmentally to other opinions.  The person may have some things
 mixed up, may be forgetting something, may even be totally wrong.  Yet, it
 will take some serious persuasion from the opposing viewpoint as well, if
 they are to convert this person one way or another.  For rationality and
 analytic thought sometimes can't disprove a (seemingly?) irrational belief,
 just as some can't prove an irrational belief with a syllogism.
  
 So, I guess it comes down to what you said, Professor Lawler.  Attempting to
 understand another's viewpoint and keeping an open mind in the face of
 certain things which one may or may not accept at first glance, or even,
 at six thousandth glance.  One may choose not to buy into a system, but I
 guess the system should still be allowed to run.  I just hope that the
- - - - -
Apr17/94 10:48
54:120)  John Lawler:
 Sure.  Let anybody believe whatever they want to.  They will anyway.
 
 And keep anybody (even if you think they've got the correct goods) from
 enforcing any kind of belief on people.  You could be wrong and so could
 they.  Every society that's tried that in the past has come to grief, and
 they were just as convinced as anybody could be that they'd got it right
 *this* time.
 
 That's why I'm glad there's freedom of religion in America, because it
 guarantees freedom *from* religion as well.
 
 As far as individual beliefs go, they're your own business.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:46
54:121)  Joe:
 (tongue-in-cheek)  Unless you don't believe that (above)!
- - - - -
Apr17/94 22:28
54:122)  John Lawler:
 Absolutely.  You got the point.  And your tongue is in the right place.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 55    Mar19/94 18:47    12 lines    32 responses
John Lawler                        
English Verb Phrase and Reflexive Problems

 MESSAGE from: Lee                         17:40 Mar19/94  lberger
 What exacty is due on Tuesday (in terms of what we should have written up).
 Should we just answer the questions or do you want more?
 
 REPLY from: John Lawler                        18:40 Mar19/94  jlawler
 For the English Verb Phrase, answer the questions and state the
 rule(s) that describe the structure of the English Verb Phrase.
 
 For the English Reflexive, state the rules(s) that indicate when
 the reflexive pronoun can be used, and which Noun Phrase it is
 co-referential to.  (two NP's are called "co-referential" if they
 both refer to the same thing (person/event/place/...etc.).)

   32 responses
- - - - -
Mar20/94 01:20
55:1)  Henry:
 How do you contract part of a sentence?  How do you change the order 
 of auxiliaries?  In #1 and #11 if you put a not in, would it not be
 "did not"?  For the reflexives, why are numbers 23 and 25 in the data?
- - - - -
Mar20/94 12:51
55:2)  John Lawler:
 For contrast.  One of the things that need to be explained about reflexives
 is how they differ from regular pronouns and when you can use one, or the
 other, or both, and what differences they make in meaning.
 
 You contract part of a sentence by taking the original parts and putting
 them through a contraction rule.  Most contractions are lexically specified
 (that is, they depend on what the word is), so which rule is used can
 be treated essentially as irregular morphology.  Thus,
    /wIl/ + /nat/ -> /wont/        /kEn/ + /nat/ -> /kaent/
    /hi/ + /Iz/ -> /hiz/           /hi/ + /haez/ -> /hiz/
 etc.
 
 The point with negatives is that more than just inserting the negative
 /nat/ (and consequent contraction) is involved.  Sometimes you have to
 put other stuff in.  And the position of insertion is not random.
- - - - -
Mar20/94 12:52
55:3)  Jill:
 Are the ones that have a star next to them have it because their subject and
 reflexive form do not agree? I am confused on how you know when the reflexive
 pronoun can be used.
- - - - -
Mar20/94 12:56
55:4)  Jill:
 for question b, can you make them into tag questionslike from the previous
 side?
- - - - -
Mar20/94 13:23
55:5)  John Lawler:
 The ones that have a star in front of them are UNGRAMMATICAL.
 
      He shaves himself.
     *He shaves myself.
 
 Notice that the second sentence above is bad. English speakers don't talk
 that way.  Thus the star.  This doesn't mean it's "wrong", that is,
 stigmatized, like saying "ain't" (which English speakers *do* say), or saying
 "fuck" (ditto).  Those are social judgements, not linguistic ones.  What is
 meant by "ungrammatical" is simply that such sentences do not occur.  That's
 why Miss Fidditch never told you about them; she didn't tell you not to
 violate the law of gravity, either.  We don't need injunctions not to do
 things we never do.
- - - - -
Mar20/94 18:04
55:6)  Calvin:
 just to be safe, is a sentence like "I throw it" lexically the same as "I do
 throw it"?  J. T., you  can also form y/n questions by displacing an
 auxiliary to the beginning of a sentence. Ex:  "you may go"-----> "may you
 go?"
- - - - -
Mar20/94 18:07
55:7)  Lee:
 Calvin, I think it is.  In a case like that, I always understood the "do"
 to be understood as part of the sentence.  But we take it out to shorten
 the sentences because it is repetitive.
- - - - -
Mar20/94 19:27
55:8)  Calvin:
 Be careful on part a) of the The Emnglish Verb Phrase.  If i'm correct, i
 think there are 4 forms of the present (one is a null) tense morpheme instead
 of 2.  The past morpheme has 2 forms instead of 1
- - - - -
Mar20/94 20:03
55:9)  Stephanie:
 i dont see the four present....unmarked, just before verb(auxilliary)
  
- - - - -
Mar20/94 20:18
55:10)  Larry:
 Doesn't the negative of "they watch us" become "they do not watch us"?
 How do we describe that?
- - - - -
Mar20/94 20:40
55:11)  Kiran:
 Larry, I think that the sentence "they watch us" has an understood "do" in
 it, like Calvin and Lee were talking about earlier(55:6, 55:7).  The addition
 of "not" is the same rule as for other sentences: after the first auxiliary.
 Calvin, I also don't see four present tenses.  Can you explain a little more?
- - - - -
Mar20/94 20:52
55:12)  Calvin:
 alright, here are the four forms (i think) that characterize the present
 tense morpheme: {does or -(e)s} for singular subject and {do or -0} for
 plural subject. Anyone disagree?  I have a question; are contractions like
 "could've" or "might've" considered grammatical (hmm, i thought i've seen
 them somewhere in the 4th dimension) :()
- - - - -
Mar20/94 22:51
55:13)  Dawn:
 isn't that only one form of present tense morphemes.
 I thought another thing would be progressive, null (as stated in #8), but 
 what is the fourth?
- - - - -
Mar20/94 23:38
55:14)  Abheek:
 Is either "would" or "must" a modal verb or auxillary verb? I'm
 also confused whether or not a modal verb is a type of auxillary
 verb?
- - - - -
Mar21/94 00:12
55:15)  Fred:
 I think "would" and "must" are called "modal auxillary verbs", so yes,
 they are auxillary verbs. 
 I don't think there is an understood do in the present tense because
 were that the case, why couldn't it just be understood when the sen-
 tence is negative?  Also, I think it used to be correct to say "They
 watched us not."
 No. 21 on the 
 English verb phrase problem does not strike me as being able to pass]
 by without being noticed, which means, if others agree, that it's not
 "grammatical."
 Do we have to go beyond answering the questions for the English Verb 
 Phrase problem.
 Would using the termenology of predicate Calculus be a good way of ex-
 plaining my solutions?
- - - - -
Mar21/94 00:25
55:16)  John Lawler:
 Good point, Fred.  "Understood" things are basically fudges.
 They shouldn't be posited (remember Occam's Razor?) unless
 they can be justified.  For instance, check out the behavior
 of reflexives in imperatives.  What do you need to explain
 the fact that "yourself" can occur but not "myself"?
 
 But, as Fred points out, why should we accept an "understood"
 verb when it's not there, and not when it's obligatory?  Because
 look what you *can't* say:
    *Bill didn't the dishes.
    *Mary balancesn't her checkbook.
    *I like not her.
    *Like you her?
    *Balances Mary her checkbook?
    *Did Bill the dishes?
 How come the "do" is necessary here, but optional elsewhere?
 And is it really the same thing to say
       Mary balances her checkbook
 and   Mary does balance her checkbook?
 The circumstances when one might say one or the other seem to
 be rather different.  For one thing, should they be stressed
 the same way?  It seems much more likely to me that the "does"
 would be heavily stressed in the second sentence, and that it
 would occur as a response to a claim that she doesn't do it.
- - - - -
Mar21/94 14:23
55:17)  Larry:
 Question:  When asked for the past/present morpheme, are you just
 looking for the '-ed', or do you want us to state how the past/present
 tense is formed for the entire verb phrase???
 I agree with Prof. Lawler about the 'do' before the verb changing the 
 meaning.  I am just saying that 'do' must be added in the negative case,
 similar to the way we form a question sometimes.
 Next, my reflexive write-up was very short, since it is seemingly just one 
 rule (subject and direct object must be the same person).  Is that all you
 really want, because it explains everything in the data set???
 Can somebody write their auxilary construction for the verb phrase thing.
 I got:
     modal + perfect + passive + progressive + 'watch'
 Yeah or nay????
- - - - -
Mar21/94 18:17
55:18)  Mitchell:
 Question: This may seem nitpicky, but is it not entirely possible to make
 a contraction from 3 words?  Witness #15, which could be contracted:
 They'll've watched us.  By analyzing the way I would say the sentence in
 colloquial manner, that sounds the best.  (Ditto #10: We'll've)  Does this
 have any legitimate basis, or is it just me and just the way I talk?
 (If the issue of this reply ultimately becomes a distraction, then I
 apologize in advance.)
- - - - -
Mar21/94 18:47
55:19)  Kiran:
 Larry, I got modal + perfect + progressive + passive, But I could be wrong. I
 also have a question about part a for the verb phrase problem.  When you say
 present or past tense morpheme, does that mean simple present and past? For
 example the progressive has a present and past tense : "They are watching" as
 opposed to "They were watching"  Should we account for these present and past
 tense changes also?
- - - - -
Mar21/94 19:59
55:20)  Henry:
 I am also confused about letter a.  When modals/auxilaries become involved, 
 the regular (simple) morphemes used for the present/past do not work.  
 However, you can say if it is past/present from the modals/auxilaries.
 But those are not morphemes, they are words.  Also I have not found
 anything for letter e besides my answer to b.  I don't think I understand
 these questions.  Any ideas?
- - - - -
Mar21/94 23:10
55:21)  Stephanie:
 Mitchell- we SAY We'll've, but you would probably not write it that way.
 I am still confused on letter a as well. I dont see the four present..
 but i think the two forms of past are either past aux +vb or
 simple past, which means adding -ed to the end of the verb.
 Also, I dont really know what to do with part e. If you change the
 order of the aux verbs, you get nonsense sentences, but you 
 can substitute certain modals in some cases. Is this correct, and
 isd this what the question is asking. And if not, how do i write what
 i am trying to say.?
- - - - -
Mar21/94 23:17
55:22)  Dawn:
 What is modal+perfect+progressive+past?
 I know we did that is section for #21 but is that in the assignment?
 Are we to mention how the forms are used together, because that is not
 one of the questions.
- - - - -
Mar21/94 23:39
55:23)  John Lawler:
 Explaining how the verb phrase works is in the assignment.
 
 Listing the order is one part, surely.  But explaining what each one means is
 also part of it.  For instance, we all agree on Modal + Perfect + ..., but is
 the last part Passive + Progressive or Progressive + Passive, and how would
 you tell?  What auxiliaries are involved in each, and how do they interact
 with one another?
 
 How can you tell one use of "be" from another?
 
 You're right, Henry, modals don't have any tense.  But except for modals, all
 the other auxiliaries can have tense.  Where does it in fact go?
 
 Stephanie, that's the point -- the order is fixed (though modals are
 essentially a paradigmatic class, and all go in the same slot).  But what
 does it mean to say "aux + vb"?  Is there more to it than that?  What *kind*
 of "vb"?
 
 Larry, the subject and direct object don't have to be the same person.  Look
 at "He shaved him".  They're different.  How about "I want to shave myself"? 
 The direct object of "want" is "to shave myself". (What do you want? To shave
 myself).  How about "I want him to shave himself"? I is the subject, no?  So
 how come "himself" is OK, but "myself" is awful?  There are more things in
 reflexives, Horatio...
 
 Oh, and of course it's possible to contract three things, but not just *any*
 three things.  My favorite one is "they'd've" or "I'd've". Of course, the
 "'d'" *must* be "would", not "had", right? But notice that (for instance)
- - - - -
Mar21/94 23:39
55:24)  John Lawler:
 "he'sn't" is *terrible*.  So it's very lexically-oriented.
- - - - -
Mar22/94 00:44
55:25)  Calvin:
 So, how should 'do', 'does', and 'did' be classified?  They behave quite like
 the modals except for subject # agreement in the present (do, does), but they
 can't really be termed as modals (can they?).  I thought 'affirmative' is a
 better description for them.
- - - - -
Mar22/94 09:45
55:26)  John Lawler:
 Notice that they only occur if the other auxiliaries *don't* occur.  They
 *do* behave like the modals in one specific way, but not in others.
 The name isn't important.  Technically, in fact, it's simply called
 "do-support".
- - - - -
Mar22/94 10:11
55:27)  Dawn:
 I still don't understand the 4th present tense construction.
- - - - -
Mar22/94 10:55
55:28)  Calvin:
 Dawn, the 4 present tense morphemes are (were): do [verb], does [verb],
 [verb]+0 (null), and [verb]+(e)s.  However, i am a uncertain now as to
 whether the 'do and 'does' should be classified as present tense.  I am
 really sorry if i mighthave led anyone to a possible dead end.  My current
 write-up has 'do', 'does', and 'did' in a category by themselves and their
 presence requires a non-inflected verb.
- - - - -
Mar22/94 10:57
55:29)  Lee:
 Calvin, which numbers do you find the do support in?
- - - - -
Mar22/94 11:11
55:30)  Calvin:
 if you mean the data on the handout, none.  I am including the do support
 because i wanted a complete write up of the english verb phrase.
- - - - -
Mar22/94 11:55
55:31)  Dawn:
 Thanks Calvin, I think I was making things too hard on myself.
- - - - -
Mar22/94 12:09
55:32)  John Lawler:
 Some of the questions imply do-support.  For instance, yes/no
 questions and negation sometimes invoke do-support.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 56    Mar22/94 18:37     1 line     29 responses
Nicholas                    
Discussion of Pitjantjara problem due Thursday

 Pitjantjara

Related items:
   57

   29 responses
- - - - -
Mar22/94 18:41
56:1)  Nicholas:
 Hmmm I'm not all that qualified at entering new items.... oh well. :)
 I have a question (hey someone needs to put some life into new puppy!):
 How does one explain the suffix on each verb? It's either -nu or -n(with a 
 tail)u, but we can't find a patter to explain the difference. Professor, 
 is there any?
- - - - -
Mar22/94 18:52
56:2)  Calvin:
 prof., what's the trick i thought i heard in lecture today?  Please enlighten
 us, we're very hungry...
- - - - -
Mar22/94 20:45
56:3)  John Lawler:
 I don't really know much about the verb morphology.  But it seems clear
 that the verbs all end with a suffix of <Nasal>u, and that it's likely
 they're all the same tense.  How you decide which <Nasal>, though, is
 beyond me.  Anyway, it's the NP's that are the focus in this problem.
 The verbs are interesting, but pretty impenetrable.
 
 Go eat supper, Calvin :-) .
- - - - -
Mar23/94 12:25
56:4)  Mitchell:
 I think I figured out the "trick" that Prof. Lawler eluded to.  If I'm not
 mistaken (and I hope I'm not), the trick has to do with the noun endings.
 Isolate the noun endings, THEN see which noun endings correspond to the
 kernel (sentence) types indicated by the gloss.  (Is this the "trick" JL?)
 Correction: "elude" in line 1 of this response should be "allude"--my goof.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 12:53
56:5)  John Lawler:
 It's part of the trick.  Then do the same thing for the pronouns.
 Don't forget the pronouns.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 13:57
56:6)  Mitchell:
 Questions about the assignment: when we are asked to cite examples, need
 we cite examples for parts B & C?  (That would be a lot of examples to
 cite.)  Further, do we need to write up anything else besides the answers
 to the questions on the Pitjantjara handout?
- - - - -
Mar23/94 14:43
56:7)  Calvin:
 what's the definition of "absolutive"; and, does the (2) following 'we' in
 #31 indicate a two-person plural pronoun?
- - - - -
Mar23/94 14:55
56:8)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Calvin, We (2) means "me and one other person".  We (pl) means "me and other
 people".  Absolutive is the subject of an intransitive and the object of a
 transitive (from section Fri.--check your notes if it's still unclear).
 Mitchell, if you give the paradigms for the pronouns, (c), I don't think
 you need ot list other examples, as long as you explain how they work.
 I don't think citing examples in (b) should be that much work--just make
 sure you explain any lexical classes.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 15:01
56:9)  Calvin:
 in that case, the pronouns can't possibly have absolutives, can they?  the
 ergative and n0n-ergative subject pronouns are the same but they both differ
 from the object pronouns (transitive).
- - - - -
Mar23/94 15:13
56:10)  Stephanie:
 just a few things
 1) please explain ergative again
 2) should we worry about prepositional phrases? I got the impression that
 we were looking for obj. of verb, and not of preposition.
 3) should we name the noun classes?
- - - - -
Mar23/94 16:16
56:11)  Calvin:
 i had a hard time trying to group the noun classes lexically.  However, one
 thing that i am sure of is that nouns which are tri-syllabic in their
 absolutive forms require special markings in the ergative form.  It appears
 as the # of syllables for the ergative form is always 3.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 16:26
56:12)  Stephanie:
 I dont understand ergative....is it the subject in the transitive
 form??
- - - - -
Mar23/94 16:39
56:13)  Calvin:
 SAM, i think you're pretty much right.  From my (skimpy) notes, ergative also
 has something to do with marking the subject if it's acting directly on an
 object and not marking it if it's not acting on the object. Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 17:17
56:14)  Jake:
 From my understanding, the ergative is whatever is not acting upon 
 something else --
 so in transitive sentances, English' object is the ergative, but in 
 intransitive sentances, where the subject isn't doing something to someone, 
 then the subject is ergative.
 
 Kind of hazy, but I hope it helps. 
- - - - -
Mar23/94 17:47
56:15)  Stephanie:
 Thanks...it helps, if i knew how to apply it.
 Do you think it is ok if we dont use the technical terms. Somehow
 I would rather do that than use them incorrectly, and since the
 GLOSSARY item is DEAD......
- - - - -
Mar23/94 19:22
56:16)  Calvin:
 Someone please compare and contrast among these pairs:  subject/object 
 nominative/accusative  ergative/absolutive.  Thanks (my notes have failed
 me).
- - - - -
Mar23/94 19:52
56:17)  Lee:
 I'll give it my best shot Calvin.
   Subject-in English, the subject does the action.  John in "John walked
   Object-in English, roughly, what the action is done to.
     Direct Object- Mary in "John saw Mary"
     Indirect Object- Mary in "John sent a package to Mary" (package is the
 DO)
   Ergative- for Pitjantjara purposes, ergative is the subject of a transitive
   Absolutive- "   "          ", abs. is subject of intransitive & object of  
       (that should be "...object of transitive")
   Nom vs. Accus, I don't know (but I don't think it has much bearing on Pit.)
   Hope that helps.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 19:58
56:18)  Stephanie:
 yes, please do
- - - - -
Mar23/94 19:59
56:19)  Stephanie:
 thanks. why are pronouns different then? is that one of those "lexical
 classes"???
- - - - -
Mar23/94 20:01
56:20)  Katrina:
 SAM: Yes, I think pronouns are really the only lexical class to which
     Prof. Lawler is referring.
   They seem to be the only noun type that doesn't follow the rules
   which we've come up with for this problem.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 20:07
56:21)  John Lawler:
 Well, aren't pronouns a different class from nouns?  After all, in English,
 personal pronouns have case (he/him) while nouns don't.
 
 There are several *systems* involved.  One is Ergative/Absolutive, which we
 found in Pitjantara before.  Another is Nominative/Accusative, which we find
 in English and most other Indo-European languages.  It's possible to have
 both in one language; in Hindi, for instance, the present tense is Accusative
 while the past tense is Ergative.
 
 In an Ergative system, the subject of a transitive has a special case
 (Ergative), but the object of a transitive and the subject of an intransitive
 are both marked the same (Absolutive).
 
 In an Accusative system, the object of a transitive has a special case
 (Accusative), but the subject of a transitive and the subject of an
 intransitive are both marked the same (Nominative).
- - - - -
Mar23/94 20:30
56:22)  Dawn:
 for the pronouns, I think I get the general pattern of removing the final
 syllalble in a three syllable transitive form to make the objective, but do 
 plurals act differently (i.e. not removing the syllable)?
- - - - -
Mar23/94 21:01
56:23)  Samuel:
 I don't understand what are lexical classes.  Can someone share
 his/her knowledge?  
- - - - -
Mar23/94 21:19
56:24)  Stephanie:
 do we worry about nom/acc in this language? i dont see anything
 about it...at least, not in any of the questions
- - - - -
Mar23/94 21:30
56:25)  Samuel:
 What is the deal with the proper nouns?  Do they have a different
 marking meaning Nom/Accussative instead of Erg/Abs?  I really don't
 think so, but it is the only thing that comes into mind.  Help!!
- - - - -
Mar23/94 21:34
56:26)  Tom:
 S.A.M.,I do not believe that we need to worry about this in the homework.
 But I could be wrong.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 21:46
56:27)  Stephanie:
 SLV: yes, they are marked differently. you are correct
- - - - -
Mar23/94 22:12
56:28)  John Lawler:
  The proper nouns are obviously different in what forms they use,
 but that's nothing new.  There are lexical classes in most languages.
 The question is what pattern they use.
- - - - -
Mar23/94 22:43
56:29)  Henry:
 Sammy, if you list three paradigms for the pronouns it becomes
 clear that there are two marking systems being used.  Just list
 all the pronouns that are transitive subjects, transitive objects,
 and intransitive subjects and a pattern emerges.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 57    Mar24/94 23:17     2 lines    25 responses
Fred                      Prime=56
This is an item for the German (Indo-European) problem due

 This is an item for the German (Indo-European) problem due
 Tuesday

Related items:
   58

   25 responses
- - - - -
Mar25/94 22:19
57:1)  Rob:
 Can there be a zero morpheme for the word that marks gender before the noun?
- - - - -
Mar26/94 11:44
57:2)  John Lawler:
 Depends.  Do you mean a word that does *nothing but* mark gender?
 No case, no definite article functions?  Then it's possible, but
 rather hard to motivate (remember Occam's Razor?), since one could
 have zero morphemes everywhere marking gender in English, too.
 How many zero morphemes can dance on the head of a semicolon?
- - - - -
Mar26/94 12:26
57:3)  Mitchell:
 Questions (one of which stems from Rob's response): Should the "von" in
 14 be "vom" instead?  Regarding Rob's question (1): where are the
 articles before the word "Student" in #'s 16 and 20?  Are they supposed to
 be absent?  If not, what are they, then?
- - - - -
Mar26/94 13:07
57:4)  Henry:
 I am confused about how to determine the different forms of the articles.
 Some of the variations seem to be motivated by gender.  However, the real
 reason for the changes seems to be either object markings or tense 
 and/or aspect markings.  If anyone knows how to set up paradigms for
 the dem/der/die/den/0 morphemes please respond.
- - - - -
Mar26/94 13:50
57:5)  Abheek:
 I think I figured out the paradigm for the articles.
    M   F
 Nom    der     die
 Acc    den     die
 Dat    dem der
 Correct me if the above information is either wrong or missing
 anything. The trick to this was that one of the verb takes on
 a different case than the other for its objects.
- - - - -
Mar26/94 15:32
57:6)  John Lawler:
 Bingo.
- - - - -
Mar26/94 17:59
57:7)  Rob:
 Does the von in some of the sentences indicate passive voice?  Also can this
 von and an article contract to form vom (similar to de+el=del in Spanish).  
 Lastly, can von take a past morpheme juts like the verb does? (the worden in
 the last few sentences)
- - - - -
Mar26/94 20:26
57:8)  Jake:
 Rob, I haven't looked at the homework yet, but...
  von = 'by' in passive sentances. It does not indicate passive voice.
 a form of "werden" + past participle indicates passive.
 Yes, von + dem = vom.
 I don't understand your last question...
  
 (as an intersting note, German has a three-way "by":
  "von" for living things
  "mit" for intsruments (like violins and violas, haha)
 and "durch" for forces and acts of nature)
- - - - -
Mar27/94 16:13
57:9)  Stephanie:
 I am not exactly sure what we have to list in the write-up. Please
 let me know if this is all
  1. paradigm for articles
  2. morphemes for teacher, student, see, and help
  3. verb order, sentence order w/ different tense
 How can we tell what the infinitive form of the vb is, and
 does it matter??
- - - - -
Mar27/94 20:27
57:10)  John Lawler:
 You can't tell what the infinitive form of the verb is, so it
 doesn't matter.  If you're interested, they are (1) sehen and 
 (2) helfen.
 
 I would also think you should write up the relations of the
 cases with the syntax, and the difference between the passive and
 the active constructions, and the difference between the verbs in
 terms of the ways they relate to the cases.
 
 Basically, in any problem, write up any pattern you can find.
- - - - -
Mar27/94 20:58
57:11)  Stephanie:
 Please elaborate on "relations of the cases with the syntax"
 I am unclear as to what you mean. This is what I think you mean, 
 however: when you explained the english verb phrase, you
 said that part of speech/tense a had to be followed by
 part of speech/tense b, etc.
- - - - -
Mar28/94 09:32
57:12)  John Lawler:
 Yeah, that's similar, though of course that isn't officially "case",
 since we're talking about verb forms and not noun forms.
 
 Remember that inflection is an interface between words -- it's on the
 outside of the word and is available for such phenoma as agreement
 to indicate what chunks individual words belong to.  Case, in particular,
 indicates some kind of relation between the case-bearing NP and the
 other words in the clause.  For instance, notice that the use of
 nominative, accusative, or ablative case in Latin indicates what the relation
 is between the NPs and one another, and between them and the verb.
 
 German has a system that's a bit more complicated than what we saw in
 the Latin problem, because it involves articles and prepositions, plus
 some idiosyncratic contractions and idiosyncratic government patterns.
 
 Next question: what does "government" mean in this context?
 Tune in again later for the thrilling conclusion to our story...
- - - - -
Mar28/94 14:55
57:13)  Stephanie:
 <eager with anticipation>
 (I hope I spelled that correctly :)   )
 I think I understand....thanks!
- - - - -
Mar28/94 16:22
57:14)  Sean:
 I think that "government" in response #12 refers to what kind of object a
 particular verb takes (at least, that's what it means in a Latin class [in
 which, by the way, it also refers to what the purpose of an infinitve paired
 with a verb is - although that really isn't relevant in this discussion]).
- - - - -
Mar28/94 16:51
57:15)  Calvin:
 what type of verbs are 'help' and 'see' germanically speaking?
- - - - -
Mar28/94 16:51
57:16)  Lucas:
 Incidentally, why are the nouns capitalized, and are they always?
- - - - -
Mar28/94 16:55
57:17)  Calvin:
 also, in a passive sentence, what is the subject and object?  Are there
 technical terms for NP's that lead a main verb and NP's that trail a verb,
 whether the sentence be active or passive?
- - - - -
Mar28/94 18:03
57:18)  Stephanie:
 Help is a verb that takes the dative case of an object. See takes
 the accusative. (I was told that anyway)
 I was also told that nouns just  *are* capitalized
- - - - -
Mar28/94 18:41
57:19)  John Lawler:
 German nouns are all capitalized, just as English proper nouns and the
 pronoun "I" are capitalized (the German pronoun "ich" is *not* capitalized,
 nor are proper adjectives like "deutsch" or "amerikanish"). It's just part of
 the orthography of the language.  I find it more logical and useful,
 personally, but opinions vary.
 
 "Government" means what kinds of thing are "governed" (i.e, "controlled") by
 various kinds of words.  For instance, in Latin and German prepositions are
 said to "govern" different cases.  Latin "de" governs the ablative case,
 since the object of "de" has to be in the ablative.  But the object of the
 preposition "ad" has to be in the accusative case. Similarly, in German "mit"
 governs the dative case, while "fuer" (that's a 'U-umlaut', represented
 typographically by a 'ue' digraph) governs the accusative.  Interestingly,
 both have prepositions that swing both ways. In both languages, the
 preposition "in" can govern two cases, depending on what it means.  If it
 means *motion* (i.e, = "into"), it governs the accusative in both languages. 
 But if it means *location*, then it governs the ablative in Latin or the
 dative in German (German doesn't have an ablative).
 
 Verbs can work similarly.  As Sean points out, different verbs can govern
 different cases for their object.  In particular, it is entirely possible for
 a particular verb to require its direct object to be marked in the dative
 case, instead of the more normal accusative.
- - - - -
Mar28/94 18:43
57:20)  John Lawler:
 As for Mitchell's question about the subject and object of passive
 sentences, that's an interesting question.  What does anybody else
 think?
 
 And, finally, "leading" and "trailing" aren't bad as technical terms.
 They refer to our perceptions of speech, rather than reading, like
 "precede" and "follow".
- - - - -
Mar29/94 00:18
57:21)  Fred:
 From what I've seen on the conference, it seems that sehen's objects are in
 the accussative case and helfen's are in the dative.  But just from this
 problem, I don' don't see how we can know anything about "accusative" and
 "dative"  It seems to me that all I can say is that certain verbs and
 prepositions have a certain paradigm for the articles that follow them
 whereas as others have others.
- - - - -
Mar29/94 01:48
57:22)  Zachary:
 Is there anything else we should include in our write-up that
 has not already been mentioned?
- - - - -
Mar29/94 07:49
57:23)  John Lawler:
 That's right, Fred.  Nothing in the data identifies the accusative or the
 dative.  However, it's clear that one of the cases that occurs on the
 direct objects also occurs to mark the object of the preposition "von",
 which marks the agent in Passive constructions.  That pretty clearly
 marks it as "oblique", i.e, neither nominative nor accusative ("oblique"
 is a cover term for all other cases that may occur in a language, and
 generally implies that the uses are likely to be idiosyncratic).  This
 in turn identifies the other case as an accusative.  But that's, again,
 a conclusion drawn from a more experienced perspective.
 
 Oh, and try not to think of this situation as simply a marking of articles.
 The articles show overt gender and case markings, but that's simply becaus
 they have more complex paradigms than nouns.  Think of it as a marking of
 the entire Noun Phrase, which tends to show up most in the articles that
 introduce them.
 
 Zach, you might consider describing the Passive construction.  I don't
 know whether that's been mentioned yet.  It's a little different from
 English; of course you don't have information on all of it.  In particular,
 I find it interesting that, whereas English uses "be" with one participle
 to indicate progressive, and with another to indicate passive, German
 uses "werden" (that's the infinitive; the 3spres is "wird", and the
 past participle is "geworden", with the "ge-" prefix dropped when it's
- - - - -
Mar29/94 07:49
57:24)  John Lawler:
 part of a compound verb with a past participle already expressed) with
 the infinitive to mark the future tense ("Ich werde sehen die Studentin"
 'I will see the [fem] student') and with the past participle to mark
 the passive ("Ich werde von der Studentin gesehen" 'I am seen by the
 [fem] student').
- - - - -
Mar29/94 11:23
57:25)  Melissa:
 Thanks, Prof. Lawler, for clearing that up.  I asked three German speakers
 about the use of werden last night, and none of them could get a straight
 explanation together.  Now I see that it's a lot like Russian usage
 of the verb "to be"


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 58    Mar29/94 23:42     1 line     26 responses
Fred                      Prime=57
English Phrasal Verbs

 English Phrasal Verbs

Related items:
   59

   26 responses
- - - - -
Mar29/94 23:49
58:1)  Fred:
 I'm not sure how to say this, but I think that, in general, the more
 the verb relies on the particle for its meaning the more likely it
 is that the particle will follow the object.  For example, "He took
 it on.
 would mean something entirely different without the "on", whereas 
 "He looked for it" although it would be ungrammatical, would still convey
 the idea of looking and seeing.  In short, the more different a particle's
 function is from a preposition's the more likely it is to be placed dif-
 ferently.  Of course, there are exceptions to this pattern.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 08:55
58:2)  Stephanie:
 What do the directions mean "distinguish one form the other
 and give your reasons for doing so." Distinguish "he looked
 at it " from "he looked it at" or distinguish meaning, as in
 19/20. We are also confusedasto the meaning of "rely on"
 as in, the verb relying on the particle.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 09:38
58:3)  Larry:
 Me confused too!
- - - - -
Mar30/94 11:45
58:4)  Jill:
 One thing I noticed is that certain verbs take on the same forms.
 ex:took-usually follows the subj-verb-pronoun-prep form. I am confused on how
 to distinguish them besides listening to hear what sounds better. There are
 some interesting things that occur ex 19-20.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 11:51
58:5)  John Lawler:
 They mean "distinguish phrasal verb constructions from verb plus
 prepositional phrase constructions -- i.e, identify each example as
 one or the other -- and say why you made your choices."
- - - - -
Mar30/94 15:10
58:6)  Calvin:
 will this assignment be turned in on Thursday?
- - - - -
Mar30/94 15:15
58:7)  Vassoula:
 So that's all we need to do is decide which is which and say why?
- - - - -
Mar30/94 15:46
58:8)  Jennifer:
 It seems to me that if the verb can be turned around in the third column,
 then it is a phrasal verb, and if it can be turned around in the second
 column then it is a prepositional phrase.  did anyone else seem to find this
 pattern?
- - - - -
Mar30/94 16:20
58:9)  Fred:
 I think that, generally, the phrasal verbs are more likely to wok in the
 third column, but not always.  Also, it's not always easy to tell which
 is a preposition and which a particle.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 17:51
58:10)  Katrina:
 I noticed that for those sentances which are incorrect in the second
 column but correct in the third column you can alter the sentance in
 the first column without losing the meaning. ie 3.  He looked up the
 picture is the same as He looked the picture up.  This does not work
 in the sentances which are correct in the second column but not in
 the third ie. 8.  He picked at his meal does not make sense as  He
 picked his meal at.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 18:40
58:11)  Rob:
 It seemed to me that certain words always appeared in certain places.  For
 example, the words at, for, and to always come before the pronoun.  There is
 no possible way to make a sentence with the construction of
 noun+verb+pronoun+ at.  But, for words like down, up, and over (be aware that
 this is different from the prepositions that occur) the construction is
 noun+verb+pronoun+down/ up/over.  The only problem that I can see is the fact
 that on can occur in both places.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 20:18
58:12)  Kiran:
 Rob, "over" can be correct in both places, as in #'s 19 and 20.
- - - - -
Mar30/94 20:38
58:13)  Henry:
 Rob, I think that down, up, out, in, and off have a different constuction
 because they are the particles of phrasal verbs.  Both "out" and "over" use
 both constructions because they are used in both phrasal verbs and
 prepositional phrases.  However, #19 is confusing because it seems to be
 neither a prepositional phrase nor a phrasal verb because you can't relocate
 the "over".  I just noted it as an exception which follows the phrasal verb
 ru rule.  Did anyone account for this exception differently?
- - - - -
Mar30/94 21:11
58:14)  Lee:
 I'm still a little confused.  What, exactly, is the difference between the
 phrasal verb and the prep phrase, and how do you easily distinguish them?
- - - - -
Mar30/94 23:30
58:15)  Alana:
 Vassoula and I were trying to generalize something about the phrasal verbs
 and the only thing we could come up with is that it has something to do
 with a change of "state".  For example, in he drank up the coffee, the
 coffee moved from the cup to inside his stomach and in he picked up his
 sister, the sister moved from one place to another.  With a prep., it
 just gave a constant thing/location.  For example in he looked at the 
 picture, the picture did not move or change.  Anybody else get anything
 like that?
- - - - -
Mar30/94 23:51
58:16)  Dawn:
 Alana, look at the sentances in which changing the order of words in the
 sentence still makes sense and when it does not.  :)
- - - - -
Mar31/94 00:30
58:17)  Alana:
 thanks :)
- - - - -
Mar31/94 02:00
58:18)  Melissa:
 I'm still majorly confused as to what the difference is between phrasal
 verbs and prepositional phrases.  Are we saying that the difference is 
 based on the ability or inability to switch the particle/preposition
 around in the first column?
- - - - -
Mar31/94 07:36
58:19)  John Lawler:
 Don't worry so much about the labels -- they're just labels.  Find
 the patterns first.  Find the exceptions to the patterns.  Once you
 have those firm, you can decide what to call them.
 
 Like you shouldn't buy jeans that don't fit just because you've been
 told it's a stylish label :-)
- - - - -
Mar31/94 12:45
58:20)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Henry, do you mean that #19 would be ungrammatical as "He wrote over the
 paragraph"?  It's fine for me, but the meaning is different.
- - - - -
Apr01/94 02:41
58:21)  Jin Ho:
 OK, I"m really sorry to have to send a message to you this way, Prof. Lawler,
 but I couldn't transmit a message, and if you told us how to message you, I
 must have forgotten.  What I wanted to tell you was that I won't be able to
 make it to discussion tomorrow.  My family has asked that I respectfully
 observe the holiday.  I apologize for letting you know so late, but it
 couldn't be helped.  I hope this is all right.  And if not, just say the word
 and it won't happen again.  I appreciate your understanding.  Thank You!
- - - - -
Apr01/94 09:21
58:22)  John Lawler:
 Go ahead and respect the holiday.  But learn how to TRANSMIT a message, OK?
- - - - -
Apr01/94 13:35
58:23)  Mitchell:
 JL, I tried to transmit a message to you on Wednesday, but evidently there
 were some technical difficulties in Confer that prevented me from doing
 so.  I could not send a message to you at all on Wednesday, but 
 fortunately, what I had to say was not too terribly important.  Nevertheless,
 the problem ought to be investigated.
- - - - -
Apr01/94 15:50
58:24)  John P:
 i also tried to transmit to you, prof. lawler, and it didn't work.  (on 
 thursday)
 
- - - - -
Apr01/94 16:46
58:25)  Jake:
 There is a solution, people:
 Use e-mail. Everyone's address is uniquename@umich.edu, and if you're
 listed on X.500, it's: firstname.lastname@umich.edu
  
 This all makes john's address: john.lawler@umich.edu
 
 If you don't know how to use PINE, the UNIX front-end mailserver, it 
 would be efficacious to do so, as the ITD people are phasing out MTS 
 next year (YEEAAHH!!)
- - - - -
Apr02/94 15:14
58:26)  John Lawler:
 This machine has e-mail disabled, but you can send messages
 even if you can't receive them here.
 
 I'll check out the TRANS problem.  Thanks for the information.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 59    Apr01/94 18:14     1 line     50 responses
Fred                      Prime=58
Complements Problem

 Complements

   50 responses
- - - - -
Apr01/94 18:18
59:1)  Fred:
 I just want to know if the for...to complementizer is one we're not supposed
 to worry about in this problem.  The sheet says, "The relevant variables in
 this pattern are the type of complement (infinitive, gernd, that S)..."  This
 suggesuggests that for..to is not this problem's concern.
- - - - -
Apr02/94 15:23
59:2)  John Lawler:
 "for...to" is another name for the "infinitive" complementizer.
 
 Here are some other names:
 
 Gerund = "POSS -ing"
 Finite complement = "that S"
 
 There are variations available in all of these:
 
   One can have infinitives with or without "for" before the subject NP,
   with or without a subject at all, and with or without the "to" before
   the verb itself.  Examples:
     I want (*for) him to leave.  [no "for"]
     I tried (* (for) him) to go. [no subject]
     I let him (*to) leave.       [no "to"]
 
   One can have a gerund with the possessive or the objective case on
   the subject of the gerund, or (of course) without the subject:
     I'm surprised at his/him leaving so early.
     I'm against leaving so early.
 
   Finally, the "that S" complements can be in the indicative or
   the subjunctive; the subjunctive uses an infinitive form of
   the verb instead of the inflected one.
     It's interesting that he comes to work an hour early every day.
     It's important that he come to work an hour early every day.
- - - - -
Apr04/94 03:10
59:3)  Larry:
 Thanks... that really helped a lot.  Let me try this assignment
 again! :)
- - - - -
Apr04/94 13:53
59:4)  Calvin:
 Concerning the write-up instructions of part b) on the hand-out, can someone
 explain the need to have rules that 'must apply' vs. rules that 'may apply' ?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 14:03
59:5)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Yes, Calvin.  IF you look at #15 and 16, "seems is ungrammatical with an
 infinitive complement, whether or not extraposition takes place.  But if you
 raise the subject, as in #17, the sentence is grammatical:  He seems to
 be ill.
- - - - -
Apr04/94 14:22
59:6)  Calvin:
 I'm still confused about the instructions of part b).  I guess waht I meant
 to ask was that when you say a rule 'must apply' to a certain complementizer,
 this means that regardless of the context within the complementizer, the rule
 will always.  And, when you say a rule 'may apply' to a complementizer, then
 the rule only works certain contexts of the complementizer.  Here's an
 example:  the homework is unnecessary for you to do (grammatical or
 dialetically correct), the teacher is unneccesary for him to ask
 (ungrammatical).  From the examples above, I would then say that
 tough-movement 'may apply' to infinintive complementizer.  Am i making any
 sense here?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 14:58
59:7)  Calvin:
 when we create sentences, must all the subject and/or object in the
 complemenzers be in pronominal form?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 17:56
59:8)  Amy:
 The English Subject Complement assignment is due on Thursday but am I
 right to assume then that nothing is due on Tuesday?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 18:15
59:9)  Calvin:
 amy, approach Tuesday as you would appraoch a porcupine.  Who knows, there
 might even be a quizz... :-()   (As far as I know, nothing is due tomorrow.)
- - - - -
Apr04/94 20:17
59:10)  Rob:
 Isn't phrasals due on Tuesday???
- - - - -
Apr04/94 21:52
59:11)  Dawn:
 Didn't we already turn that in!?!?!?
 Do we account for transitive AND intransitive cases.  Some (like seem) 
 cannot be transitive.
 Should we check different tenses?
 Is it necessary to start with a sentance that works?
      ex. For him to be ill seems.  v.  For him to be ill seems strange.
 What should we do if we disagree?--2 writeups?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 22:00
59:12)  Stephanie:
 and if we do two writeups, do we say why we disagreed.?
- - - - -
Apr04/94 22:33
59:13)  John Lawler:
 You don't have to agree -- the point is not to find "the right answer".
 It's to find out what's going on.  If you have several possibilities,
 go right ahead and include them all.  If you find you have different
 intuitions about grammaticality, why then they're *all* correct, and
 you're simply using different rules or applying them differently.
 
 Nothing is due on Tuesday.  Though, who knows, maybe there might
 be a syntax quiz.
 
 I don't think different tenses will make much difference, but it
 might be the case that sometimes they might.  Generally speaking,
 stick to the tense where things work best, so that a sentence won't
 be ungrammatical for some irrelevant reason.
 
 Dawn, these are all subject complements, and so there's little
 distinction between the transitive and intransitive cases.  But
 if you find some, by all means note them.
- - - - -
Apr05/94 14:54
59:14)  Sean:
 Prof. Lawler or Leonora, Dale and I were hoping that we only had to give
 example sentences for things that worked (ie, that were GRAMMATICAL). It
 seems like a waste of time to spend hours composing sentences that sound
 ridiculously ungrammatical. Also, if we did have to give an example for
 ALL of the claims (affirmative and negative) - that would be 81 sentences
 to make up and would certainly cause both Dale and I to go completely
 insane.
- - - - -
Apr05/94 15:30
59:15)  Sean:
 Wait, I was wrong ... There can be even MORE than 81 sentences, assuming
 that we must also give examples for claims in part a.
- - - - -
Apr05/94 15:43
59:16)  John Lawler:
 Sometimes you can give broader claims, then you only need a couple
 examples to prove the point.  For instance, consider the following
 claim:
        Tough-movement never applies to any that-complement
 
 If correct, this wipes out 1/3 of the cases of tough-movement
 in one swell foop.  Try a couple of examples:
 
       *He is interesting that I saw.
       *She amazes me that you can stand.
 
 etc.
 
 How about subject-raising in that-clauses?
 How about tough-movement in gerunds?
- - - - -
Apr05/94 16:11
59:17)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Calvin,  maybe this will help:  "may apply" means that  both the original
 sentence (before the rule applies) and the sentence you have after applying
 the rule are grammatical.  "Must apply" means that the original sentence is
 not grammatical, but the sentence afteryou apply the rule is grammatical.
- - - - -
Apr05/94 16:25
59:18)  Calvin:
 thanks!
- - - - -
Apr05/94 18:14
59:19)  Mitchell:
 "One swell foop"?  Why the spoonerism in #16, JL?
- - - - -
Apr05/94 18:35
59:20)  Jill:
 Actually it is less than 81 sentences because many of the entences given are
 perfectly fine examples of the nine categories.
- - - - -
Apr06/94 00:26
59:21)  Henry:
 Leonora, if both sentences are not grammatical, is it "may not apply"?
 What about if the original sentence is grammatical but after the rule it
 is not grammatical?  Does anyone know how to do a infinitive tough 
 movement for "seem"?  *None* of my gerunds are grammatical so far.  Also,
 I only have a few infinitives for tough movement and subject raising which 
 work.  Any comments?
- - - - -
Apr06/94 02:11
59:22)  Anand:
 Leonara, what does "optional, obligatory, or forbidden.."etc.. mean.  Does
 it imply that there are three catogries for the sentences?\
 1). Yes, there can exist such a sentence
 2). *, the sentence cannot exist
 3). ??????
- - - - -
Apr06/94 07:31
59:23)  John Lawler:
 "optional, obligatory, or forbidden" refers to the *rules*, not the
 sentences.  For instance, 'seem' with a that-clause has obligatory
 extraposition, while 'interesting' with a that-clause has optional
 extraposition.  Here's the data:
 
    *That he came early seems.
     It seems (that) he came early.
 
     That he came early is interesting.
     It's interesting that he came early.
 
 There are (virtually) an infinite number of sentences in English, so it would
 be silly to categorize any one as "optional".  But there are not an infinite
 number of rules -- that's the point of studying them. And any rule can be
 optional, or obligatory, or forbidden in a given context.  It can be
 forbidden because it just won't work -- like trying tough-movement on an
 intransitive sentence, for instance -- or because, even though the structure
 is appropriate, the predicate forbids application of the rule.  This last is
 what you're supposed to be investigating.
 
 Gerunds are more restricted than infinitives in the rules they allow; that's
 part of what you're discovering.  Infinitives have lots more fun -- they can
 participate in many more rules.  But they're also more subject to individual
 variation governed by the matrix predicate.
 
 Note that in their grammaticalized cases (the English auxiliary system),
 infinitives (without "to") occur after all modals and after "do", while
 gerunds only occur in the progressive after "be".  That's a far smaller
- - - - -
Apr06/94 07:31
59:24)  John Lawler:
 distribution, and fairly represents the respective distribution and variety
 of infinitives and gerunds in non-grammaticalized complement constructions.
- - - - -
Apr06/94 14:55
59:25)  Karen :
 Joe, check your messages!
- - - - -
Apr06/94 16:38
59:26)  Lee:
 I'm a little confused as to how to approach this problem.  I've looked
 at the various sentences, but is there some way of looking at this 
 (i.e.-making lists, charts, etc.) which will make more sense.
 Any help would be appreciated
- - - - -
Apr06/94 16:42
59:27)  Larry:
 I found that the easiest way to approach this was to make a 3 x 3 table
 for each matrix predicate and then look for similarities between them.  Then
 if you have tic tac toe of X's (no's) or Y's (yes's) then you have a
 rule that can be easily stated.
 One question I did have though:  There are some sentences that are "sort
 of" right, if you know what I mean.  In some ways, I even see them as 
 dialectic, where I wouldn't use them but someone living in the South may.
 Essentially, they are descripltively grammatical, but Miss Fidich (sp?)
 might not approve.  Should we just denote those on our write-up and 
 explain?
- - - - -
Apr06/94 16:54
59:28)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Henry, for "seems" try a complement that is transitive.  ("for him to be
 ill" is intransitive).  For example, "for him to pass the test" would be
 transitive.
 Larry, ifyou're talkking about the difference between formal and informal
 (or "prescriptive" and "descriptive"):  if you would say the sentences your-
 self, even if only in informal speech, then they're grammatical. If you're
 not quite sure whether the sentence is okay, then use a "?" instead of
 a "*".  But, go by your own dialect, or the dialects of those in your
 group.
- - - - -
Apr06/94 18:25
59:29)  Kevin:
 Fidych?
- - - - -
Apr06/94 18:49
59:30)  Zachary:
 I'm not sure whether this has been asked in so many words, but
 does subject-raising and tough-movement apply only to infinitive
 constructions? Thanks for the help.
- - - - -
Apr06/94 19:12
59:31)  John Lawler:
 Pretty much.  Occasionally you run into a gerund where they work.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 01:08
59:32)  Kevin:
 I hope just listing what I found on one page, and footnoting/endnoting
 a whole bunch of examples is the best way to go.  I can't think of a 
 better way to write it up.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 01:35
59:33)  Kory:
 This was a long assignment.  I don't think that there can be too many
 wrong answers because of the many differences in dialects in our class.
 At least I hope there weren't too many clear cut answers.  It doesn't
 seem like there would be.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 01:56
59:34)  Kevin:
 I didn't see any.  A lot of the sentences were wrong for me, but I know 
 people who they would be good for.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 08:30
59:35)  John Lawler:
 That's interesting, if true, Kevin.  It turns out that we often have
 very incorrect ideas about what other people will accept.  I'm still
 often surprised after a quarter-century of research in the area.
 
 Kory, the idea was not to get "right" answers -- I'm not Miss Fidditch --
 but to find patterns.  Ungrammatical sentences are simply indicative
 of the limits of application of the rules, thus they're like staining
 a slide to make a cell show up in the microscope. 
- - - - -
Apr07/94 17:14
59:36)  Lee:
 By the way JL, what's the origin of Miss Fiddich (I can't possibly
 be the only one wondering!)
- - - - -
Apr07/94 17:21
59:37)  John Lawler:
 Why, I thought I mentioned it long ago.  "Miss Fidditch" is the canonical
 name of that Nth-Grade teacher everybody had who was such a bear about
 Correct Grammar and Spelling and Punctuation and wound up giving everybody
 an inferiority complex about language and grammar.  She's the bete
 noire of all linguists.  Not unlike those algebra teachers who yell
 at you in class, thus turning off 9/10 of their female students.
 
 For me Miss Fidditch was Sister Mary Nazarita :-)  But I found out
 by insisting on details that she didn't really know what she was
 talking about.  And I've been after the details ever since.
- - - - -
Apr07/94 19:00
59:38)  Stephanie:
 My miss fiddich wa my mother, who still corrects me when i
 end a sentence in a preposition, but i have found ways to
 get around that...i heard a joke once that solved all my
 problems:
    Woman One meets woman two
  Woman One: Hello, where are you from?
  Woman Two: You know, you should never end a sentence in
   a preposition...
  Woman One (irritated): Fine, Where 'you from, BITCH!
 Of course, i dopnt say this to my mother often...its kinda
 like asking for the fucking salt at the dinner table. If
 not, I just throw in a whole bunch of "likes" and a nice
 valley girl accent. Used to drive all my English teachers 
 nuts. 
  
 But not to cause a drift....I think some of the major differences
 my group had were strange, because they were not regional at all.
 Any explanation?
- - - - -
Apr07/94 19:41
59:39)  Amy:
 My Miss Fidich is my grandmother.  She was an English major in college
 and has a strange obsession with 'me' and 'I'.  If I ever say something
 like, Me and my friend when to the store, she throws a fit.  It's
 sopposed to be 'my friend and I".
- - - - -
Apr07/94 23:17
59:40)  Rob:
 Actually I thought it was O.K. to end a sentence with a preposition.  In fact
 there is a semi-famous quote that Winston Churchill once said, "This is
 something I will not put up with" (it goes something like that, if anyone has
 the correct quote please tell me)
- - - - -
Apr08/94 01:43
59:41)  Tara:
 My ninth grade english teacher always said, "A preposition is not something
 you end a sentence with."      Hmm...a little funny.  (=
- - - - -
Apr08/94 08:15
59:42)  John Lawler:
 There are a lot of things that look like prepositions that can be "stranded"
 (the technical term).  For instance:
 
   He looked up the word  --->   the word he looked up  (phrasal verb)
   He looked at the bird  --->   the bird he looked at  (transitivizer)
   He walked up the road  --->   the road he walked up  (preposition)
 
 The idea that "you can't put a preposition at the end of a sentence" betrays
 total ignorance of what a preposition is, what a sentence is, and how syntax
 works.  Plus it's wrong, because obviously you *can* put a preposition at the
 end of a sentence.  The next time somebody tries to put you down with some
 bullshit like that, just innocently ask whether that's also true with
 transitivizers and phrasal particles? And -- just to be on the safe side --
 exactly what *was* the citation for that rule?  They'll either bluff or slink
 off or -- if they're honest -- admit they don't really know, but they heard
 it from somebody.
 
 This stuff isn't really grammar; it's politics.  People who attempt to
 correct other people's speech habits are on the same level as those who put
 down people for reasons of fashion or skin color or breast size or other
 irrelevant reasons.  They're attempting to impose their own irrational
 prejudices on others and they deserve to be put right back in their place.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 11:34
59:43)  Larry:
 I got a great laugh out of that response, Prof Lawler.  My parents always bug
 me about saying "me and my friend", even when it is appropriate grammatically
 to do so.  The other one that drives me nuts is when they correct me when I
 say "uninterested", instead telling me it is "disinterested".  The latter
 means "not interested", while "uninterested" means "bored".  They still don't
 buy the distinction.  Maybe I need to borrow Mitchell's AHS dictionary for
 proof. ;)
- - - - -
Apr08/94 12:59
59:44)  Mitchell:
 I think "disinterested" means "not favoring one or the other."  Put it
 another way, in court, you want the judge to be disinterested, but not
 uninterested.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 13:01
59:45)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Rob, the quote from Churchill is (I'm pretty sure):  "THat is something
 up with which I wil not put."
- - - - -
Apr08/94 13:04
59:46)  Mitchell:
 Bartlett's quotations lists the quote as: "This is the sort of English
 up with which I will not put."  Hope this helps. :-)
- - - - -
Apr10/94 21:59
59:47)  Dale:
 I tried to grammar check some sentences to see if they were "correct" or 
 not.  But everytime I tried to use it, it came up with a low memory thing.
 I think that I have to reduce to the cache size but I'm not sure.  Any
 suggestions?
- - - - -
Apr10/94 23:32
59:48)  John Lawler:
 Grammar checkers are worthless.  Pay no attention to them.  There
 are such things but they don't give them away with wordprocessors;
 they need to run on multiple workstation networks or mainframes, and
 they tend to take several minutes per sentence even so.  Grammar is
 *complicated*.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 15:40
59:49)  Jill:
 I agree. I used grammar check on my last paper and it found something wrong
 in every sentence. I said I wrote on a 7th grade level-wall street being a
 12th grade level.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 20:15
59:50)  Kevin:
 I always ran grammar check to see what level it put my papers it.  I once
 wrote a paper aiming to see if I could less than 6th grade level or greather
 than 12th, but I couldn't do it.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 60    Apr07/94 14:53     2 lines    35 responses
John Lawler                        
Final Exam - Question 1 (Poem translation)

 This item is for discussion of Question 1 (the poem translation)
 on the final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

Related items:
   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69

   35 responses
- - - - -
Apr07/94 22:07
60:1)  Jin Ho:
 I'm kind of dreading this part of the exam because... well, it's like this: 
 I speak spanish. I studied it in school for five years.  And I'm gonna bet,
 from xperience that trying to translate poetry is going to be A PAIN IN THE
 ASS! The problem I see heading this way is that certain words can have a
 double meaning.  And sometimes in poetry, either meaning can fit because it's
 so abstract. So how do you decide which is the author's intent? But anyways,
 that's just me griping.  Besides, we probably should write this in our essay,
 shouldn't we? Dh Jin Ho. (as I slap myself upside the head)
- - - - -
Apr07/94 22:13
60:2)  John Lawler:
 Oh, don't give up, Jin Ho.  Let me refresh you with a couple of
 Spanish poems...
 
 Mundo Escondido 
 --------------------
 Es el lugar de las computadoras
 y de las ciencias infalibles.
 Pero de pronto te evaporas
 -- y creo en las cosa invisibles.
 
 Aceleracio'n de la historia
 ----------------------------------
 Escribo unas palabras
                       y al minuto
 ya dicen otra cosa
                    significan
 una intencio'n distinta
                         son ya dociles
 al Carbono 14
               Criptogramas
 de un pueblo remoti'simo
                          que busca
 la escritura en tinieblas.
 
 (both by Jose' Emilio Pacheco, a Mexican poet)
- - - - -
Apr07/94 23:19
60:3)  Rob:
 Is it possible for more than one person in a group to do a different poem,
 then it would be easier to have a better consensus?
- - - - -
Apr08/94 08:17
60:4)  John Lawler:
 I'll only read one answer to Question 1 per exam.  That means you have
 to have some kind of concensus.  If you're looking for some ideas
 about how to do it, take a look at a little book called "Nineteen
 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei".  You can read it in an hour or two, but
 it'll stick with you forever.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 12:00
60:5)  Lisa:
 Isn't this problem unfair for people who do not speak another language
 natively?  They can talk about some things, but the fundamental
 assumption of something being lost in translation isn't comprehendible
 to someone who only natively understands the translation, right?
- - - - -
Apr08/94 12:40
60:6)  John Lawler:
 (1) it's optional.
 (2) you don't have to speak the language natively to translate it.
 (3) LS&A does have a language requirement; why not take it seriously?
- - - - -
Apr08/94 19:57
60:7)  Jill:
 I do not think it puts people with which english is their native language at
 a disadvantage. If they translate and feel they lost part in the translation
 isn't that something they could write about. The problems with translating
 and keeping the text?
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:19
60:8)  Rob:
 Another idea that has been mentioned is to compare your translation with that
 of published translations of the same work.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:55
60:9)  Mitul:
 I think that the main point of this question is to see how well we can put a
 poem in a different language into English and then comment on our
 difficulties.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 23:36
60:10)  Jake:
 Another problem is "what do you translate"
 Meter, rhyme? Imagary? Feeling? etc.
 If you just did a literal translation, it doesn't work.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 16:49
60:11)  John Lawler:
 Mitul, the point is *not* "to see how well you can put a poem in a
 different language into English".  I don't care how well you can do
 that; I simply want you to try and then write about the experience.
 
 Jake - "What, Never?"
- - - - -
Apr10/94 19:44
60:12)  Alana:
 I think this is going to be interesting because people read poetry in 
 different ways and I am sure there will be many differing opinions, even in
 groups of three.  I think that is what the essay is to be about, how
 everyone's opinions differ and how you decided on what to translate it as.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 20:25
60:13)  John Lawler:
 That sounds like a good way to go about it, Alana.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:07
60:14)  Nicholas:
 WHat is the suggested length?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 21:19
60:15)  John Lawler:
 Of the paper, it's 3 pages max.  Of the poem, it's up to you.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 00:43
60:16)  Sarah:
 I'm not sure how to go about this problem. Should I try to literally 
 translate word for word without thinking about the meaning of the poem, 
 or should I flip the sentence orders to make it sound poetic? 
 HELP!
- - - - -
Apr12/94 01:49
60:17)  Tara:
 Sarah, I think you can do it either way, and then write about why you
 translated it the way you did, and the pros and cons of your method.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 09:56
60:18)  John Lawler:
 Right.  Start taking notes now, then go ahead and see what you do,
 and what happens, then write the essay.
 
 To repeat -- you are not graded on your translation.  You are graded
 on your essay.  Which should be good.  The translation can be awful.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:12
60:19)  Stephanie:
 Yesterday i went to a symposium on translation from italian
 into english, and sat in on a princeton profesors translation
 of the poem "L'infinito"...'the infinite'. He also handed
 out three translations of the poem. Some of the thinge he pointed
 out were that some phrases do not translate well (i.e.idioms)
 and a lot of meaning is lost in the translation. You definitely
 lose a sense of time, because there are so many different tenses
 in the language, and many words translate into more than one
 thing. (ie "il colle"  'the hill', 'the knoll') tho these
 words are basicall the same, there are subte differences in
 meaning which change the meaning of the line completely. I think
 these are the things that LWIC wants us to discover and write about
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:18
60:20)  John Lawler:
 You got it, SAM.
 
 The Italians, as a matter of fact, have the best proverb about
 translation:
    Traduttore, traditore.
 Means: "Translator, traitor".
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:41
60:21)  Stephanie:
 Si', lo so.
 It just cannot be done and stil achieve the same effect. Dunno
 how i am gonna write that, but oh well....
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:44
60:22)  John Lawler:
 But it can be done and achieve *an* effect, no?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:48
60:23)  Stephanie:
 Of course, but the effect is far different...and not nearly as
 effective...if that made any sense at all.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:45
60:24)  Tom:
 I also think that when you are translating anything from a foriegn language
 that you lose meaning because you will not know slang that may be used in 
 writing.  
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:14
60:25)  Jake:
 Then don't choose a poem with slang :-)
 SAM, I got the same feelings from that "21 Ways to view some guy in 
 chinease" book that John had us read last semester. I also agree 
 completely with that Italian quote. I was trying to translate 
 "Herbsttag", but always felt like everything I did was wrong, no matter 
 what I did. Poetry to a large extent is imagery, and unfortunatly, your 
 language changes your image of the world.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 19:18
60:26)  Melissa:
 Jake, how is one to know from the outset whether one's poem contains
 slang, colloquialisms, idioms, and other difficult to translate
 niceties?  I know from experience that the (seemingly) most traditional
 Russian song/poem can contain expressions that come out completely 
 whacked if you are not a native speaker, and consequently mess up ther
 next few lines, besides.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 03:01
60:27)  Tara:
 Wow, the biggest problem with Latin poems is their random word
 order.  Sometimes words just appear in a certain spot for the right
 foot in the meter.  This is crazy to try and save in translation.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 03:22
60:28)  Jake:
 Melissa, you can't. Puns and word-play are part of poetry that's not
 translatable. Nothing can ever be truly translated.
 A fine example is with Ojibwe names, which are quite colorful. It's an 
 incredibly important descision when translating from Ojibwe to decide 
 whether to translate the name, say "Miinens", into english (Little 
 Berry), or whether to keep it as "Miinens". Either way, you loose something.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 09:07
60:29)  Mitchell:
 Tara, the word order is not totally random.  There is a degree of
 seeming randomness, true, but this is due to poetic liberties regarding
 rhyme, meter, and so forth.  You won't, for instance, see the object
 of a preposition put miles away from  its preposition, although in 
 poetry you can see and find instances of an OOAP actually occuring
 before its preposition--a phenomena that can't (?) happen in English.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 11:27
60:30)  Tara:
 Right Mitchell, prepositions and their objects are usually back to back,
 which is nice of them- and probably necessary too.  But I was really 
 refering to how latin word order is unique since you can tell what part
 of speech a word is just by looking at it- so word order is not as 
 important as it is in english, and so with this freedom of word order 
 Latin poetry can manipulate the word order to create a number of poetic
 devices that are lost in translation.  Like chiasmus
- - - - -
Apr15/94 11:31
60:31)  Tara:
 where the word order of a phrase is repeated by a following phrase
 in decending order.   Ah, enough!   
 But anyway, what is OOAP??
- - - - -
Apr15/94 12:19
60:32)  John Lawler:
 Does it rhyme with DOOWAP?
- - - - -
Apr15/94 13:49
60:33)  Mitchell:
 OOAP=Object Of A Preposition (sorry for not clarifying it earlier)
- - - - -
Apr16/94 02:23
60:34)  Jake:
 I've always seen it abreviated OP myself...
- - - - -
Apr16/94 11:01
60:35)  John Lawler:
 In The Literature, it goes by ObjP.
 
 Though now that I've seen OOAP, I like that better :-)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 61    Apr07/94 14:54     2 lines    43 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 2 (English pronoun coreference)

 This item is for discussion of Question 2 (English pronoun
 coreference) on the final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   43 responses
- - - - -
Apr09/94 22:44
61:1)  Henry:
 I need more instructions to understand how to solve this problem.
 How exactly should we go about experimenting with other sentences?
 How similar should they be to the given sentences?  How else can we
 change the given sentences without adding new words?  Do we need
 new words or is this just about changing word order? 
- - - - -
Apr10/94 16:53
61:2)  John Lawler:
 The question is about pronouns and the circumstances that allow them
 to precede their antecents, Henry.  I'd say any sentence that contains
 both a pronoun and its antecedent is grist for the mill, though there's
 no guarantee, of course, that any one will demonstrate something you
 need to know or didn't already know.
 
 That said, I'd suggest -- as I always do -- that you change anything
 you can think of changing and see if it makes a difference.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 20:36
61:3)  Kiran:
 Are we supossed to experiment with sentences that use different conjunctions
 such as because, and, while, etc... or are we supossed to stick to sentences
 that are joined by before?
- - - - -
Apr10/94 20:39
61:4)  John Lawler:
 If the rule depends on the use of the word "before", it's not likely
 to be very general, is it?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 16:04
61:5)  Rob:
 One thing that helped us is by making some sentences replacing the before
 with a different word.  Then we took the words that it worked for and tried
 to group them under one catergory.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 18:33
61:6)  Calvin:
 Guys, read this sentence and tell me what you think: "he is a smurf, is
 Timothy not?".  Do you think the pronoun and the noun timothy are
 coreferential?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 18:42
61:7)  Dawn:
 Calvin: it sounds to me like you're saying that someone is a smurf, then
 asking about Timothy, a whole different person. Was that what you wanted
 answered?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:27
61:8)  Calvin:
 No, i wanted to see if you, upon reading it, thought that maybe Timothy is
 the 'he' in the sentence.  From your response, Dawn, i think the connection
 between the two is not accessed.  thanks.  (After doing that English
 commplement assgnm't, my head is totally messed up when it comes to sentence
 distinctions :-()  )
- - - - -
Apr12/94 15:17
61:9)  Vassoula:
 I agree with Dawn.  It sounds like you are talking about
 two different people.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 23:58
61:10)  Gail:
 Rob, I agree with what you guys did. I also thought that if the pronoun is
 the subject of the sentence, then it can be placed before the antecedent, 
 anyone else get that or not get that?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 01:08
61:11)  John Lawler:
 Check that out, eh?
 
 How about:  He told me that she was going to the prom with Bill.
  versus     Bill told me that she was going to the prom with him.
 
 Do they mean the same thing?  They would have to if {he/him} = {Bill}
 in both cases.  But "He" is the subject of the sentence.  Is this
 what you meant, Gail?
 
 *Always* look for counterexamples.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:06
61:12)  Henry:
 I found one common type of word that has to precede the pronoun.
 But I also have sentence fragments like "Believing she died," and 
 "Once I climbed in, she"  in which the first word causes the sentence
 to work but seems to not fit in with the other words I have.(after,until, ,
 while)  Sorry, change fragment #2 to "Once I climbed into her car,  
 Marilyn"  With so many conditions, how should I state the rule?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:10
61:13)  Vassoula:
 The pronoun can come before the antecedent if it's in
 a dependent clause, where it needs something to clarify it.
 Am I right?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:16
61:14)  Rob:
 We came up with the fact that it depended on what type of clause it is, but
 I don't think it can do it in dependent clause.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 23:36
61:15)  Fred:
 I am finding this to work.  Can anyone contradict it?: When the dependent
 clause precedes the independant clause, either the pronoun or the antecedent
 can come first: Because I fed her, the baby wasn' t hungry.  Because I fed
 the baby, she wasn't hungry. However, when the independent clause comes
 first, the antecedent must preceed its pronoun: The baby wan't hungry because
 I fed her. *She wan wasn't hungry, because I fed her. Sorry about mistakenly
 hitting the return key so many times.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 13:31
61:16)  Kiran:
 Fred, I agree with you for the most part, but we found a few examples where
 this rule may or may not work(actually we are disagreeing on which sentences
 are coreferrential,so maybe you can help.) --Either I will see Jill, or she
 will call me. --Either Jill will call me, or I will see her. --*She will call
 me, or I will see Jill* --I will see her, or Jill will call me. Since both
 sides of each sentence is independent, and they are simply connected by a
 conjunction, the rule as stated above, doesn't really work.  We think the
 third sentence doesn't refer to the same person, but the fourth sentence
 does. Anyone???
- - - - -
Apr15/94 14:11
61:17)  John P:
 Kiran, two of us think that number four of your last response should be 
 starred. On the other hand one of us disagrees, got mad and scared the 
 entire computing site with her vehemence... no exaggeration of course! :)
- - - - -
Apr15/94 15:12
61:18)  Henry:
 I don't see how this violates Fred's rule.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 18:53
61:19)  Calvin:
 me too.  Fred was referring to dependent and independent clauses in a
 sentence not independent clauses.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 21:11
61:20)  Vassoula:
 Kiran-Aren't you supposed to have a dependent and an independent
 clause?  I didn't think you could have two independent.  That
 is if you follow the example.  I'm not sure though.?
- - - - -
Apr16/94 19:23
61:21)  Kiran:
 Actually Vassoula, I was wondering that myself, but since the directions
 don't specify, I assumed that we wre supposed to try all kinds of sentences.
 Calvin, I think the examples I gave are two independent clauses put together
 to make a sentence. The reason, Fred's rule might not work for this example
 is that there is no dependent clause in the sentence. I think I am confusing
 myself, so I must be confusing you guys too.  SORRY!
- - - - -
Apr17/94 00:19
61:22)  Fred:
 I think that if you regard "I will see her, or Jill will call me" as cor-
 rect, then my rule needs to be ammended for clauses joined by conjunctions.
 However, if you regard that sentence as incorrect, then you can simply say
 that the clause after the conjunction functions like a dependent clause in
 regards to pronoun and antecedent placement.  I myself am not sure if I 
 think that sentence is correct.  I do know I am not likely to say it.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 00:37
61:23)  Fred:
 I think I may be able to come up with more exceptions to my rule.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:10
61:24)  John Lawler:
 Remember the distinction between "subordinate" and "coordinate".
 
              S[0]                         S[0]
             / | \                        /   \
            /  |  \                     Adv    S[1]
           /   |   \                  /   |     / \
       [1]S    |    S[2]           /    S[2]    ---
         / \   &   / \           conj    / \
         ---       ---                   ---
  
     Coordinate Structure        Subordinate Structure
  
       S[1] and S[2] on           S[1] is "above" S[2];
       the same level.            S[2] modifies S[1].
       Conjunction (&)            Conjunction (conj)
       is coordinating.           is subordinating.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:35
61:25)  Kevin:
 Fred, I don't see the "Jill" and "her" in "I will see her, or Jill will call
 me" as referring to the same person.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:34
61:26)  Lee:
 A couple of comments:
  1) The problem asks for conditions when the pronoun may precede its
 antecedent, not when it can't.  So I would spend less time focusing on the
 latter.
  2) I got something similar to what Fred got.  But I was thinking that
   introductory prepositional phrases could also take the pronoun before
   the antecedent.  i.e.-"In her gentle way, the Queen picked the daisies."
  3) I also got that some compound sentences could take the pronoun before
   the antecedent, specifically when the sentence deals with matters of
   cause and effect, or if it offers an apparent contradiction.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:43
61:27)  Henry:
 Lee, could you give an example of comment #3?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:09
61:28)  Lee:
 ok, Cause & Effect: He didn't have his car, so John had to walk home.
    App. Contr.: She would not go to the movies, for Mary hated dark places.
  I think both of these are okay, with the pronouns referring to the 
 antecedents.  I think the coordinating conjunctions yet & but are also okay,
 in addition to for & so.   Anyone else agree?  Please !!!
- - - - -
Apr17/94 22:29
61:29)  Rob:
 I don't think that the antecedent construction works for coordinating
 clauses. Consider these two sentences:
       1) The book fell on the squirrel, and he died.
       2) He died, and the book fell on the squirrel. It doesn't sound to me
 that they mean the same thing.  Also look at these two sentences:
       3) Mary won, but she still cried.
       4) She still cried, but Mary won. These two sentences don't mean the
 same thing.  Also sentence number 4 does not even make much sense, and the
 pronoun is before its antecedent.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 23:51
61:30)  Anand:
 I also disagree with you on your counter Apr.  I considered that Mary and She
 are e are two different people.  However, here are a list of rules my group
 got: 1). pronoun precedes antecedent if the pronoun is in a subordinate
 clause
     (if you need help, look at John's tree-diagram of a subordinate clause)
     that precedes the main clause 2).  When the pronoun is in the main
 clause, then the pronoiun is NOT
      coreferential to the noun. Does anyone agree or disagree??? Please let
 me know!
- - - - -
Apr18/94 01:09
61:31)  Henry:
 Anand, #2 is not right-  Because John died, he stopped breathing.
 Lee, I think coordinate structures are *all* bad because there is 
 ambiguity unlike in my example here.  Ambiguity is all
 you need if you look at 2.4 on the exam.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 06:24
61:32)  Calvin:
 I'm beginnig to think that coordinate sentences can have pronouns preceding
 thheir antecedents! look at these sentences: He was kind and so everyone
 treated Buddha with respect. He was kind or else John would have been put in
 prison. (sorry. 'kind' should be 'innocent') Lee's suggestion that
 for,yet,but,so work makes me a believer. Here's some more of his example: He
 didn't go see the movie, yet John had already bought the ticket. She didn't
 go to the contest, but we know Mary would have dog their asses! --i think
 coordinating sentences that do work have clauses that are contextually
 related to each other.  that is, not all coordinating sentences will work
 unless the (independent) clauses in them are...related (<---redundant) \
- - - - -
Apr18/94 06:29
61:33)  Calvin:
 Another thought just occurred to me; may be the conjunctions for my 1st two
 sentences should be 'and so' and 'or else' instead of 'and' and 'or'.  That
 might make the difference.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 07:50
61:34)  John Lawler:
 There are a number of grey areas around this one, and you've discovered some.
  Facts like the Buddha sentences and some ones further up that I can't
 recover at the moment (a thing intrinsic to Confer design that I'm not all
 that fond of) have been used to argue for a number of technical constructs in
 linguistics, most notably the phenomenon of "command" as a relation between
 nodes in a tree.  Depending on their relative position in a tree, two nodes
 (junctures) may be in one of three relations: the first may command the
 second, the second may command the first, or both the first and second may
 command each other.
 
 It's not really important to know the details of how to define "command", and
 there's still some argument over it (you can find out more by taking a syntax
 course or reading a syntax book), but the point is that there is a simple
 solution, like Newtonian mechanics, that's suggested by the data supplied
 with this question (like the equipment for a physics lab experiment).  The
 simple solution is clearly the prototype, but there are enough loose ends
 that one also needs a more complex theory, like relativity or quantum
 mechanics, that introduces a whole lot more "entities" and pays off in
 greater universality and predictional accuracy.
 
 I don't expect you to invent quantum mechanics on your final exam.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 09:57
61:35)  John P:
 calvin, to be honest, that buddha sentence does *not* work for me, nor 
 the innocent-prison one.  i can see a meaning, but i can not think of a 
 case where i wouldn't use another pronoun where you had the antecedent.
 
- - - - -
Apr18/94 13:35
61:36)  Lee:
 I do agree with Calvin, as his two examples both do have a "contextual
 example" (as he calls it).  I would say they fit into my categories of 
 cause and effect & apparent contradiction.  Calvin, I would be careful
 about saying something like "contextually related [oops that should be
 related up where I said example before], because contextually related is
 pretty vague and would probably be easy to find a counter example for.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 13:54
61:37)  Kevin:
 Actually, neither of the sentences worked for me.  Hm.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 15:52
61:38)  Fred:
 I am thinking that another factor in where a pronoun can be placed rela- tive
 to its antecedent is their distance from each other: the farther they are
 from each other, the less likely they are to seem right.  For example:
 Because I will have seen her, Jill will have called me. *Because she will
 have seen me, I will have called Jill. The second sentence is not quite
 wrong, but it sounds funny, and I think the reason for this is the distance
 between the pronoun and antecedent.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:01
61:39)  Henry:
 Fred's original rule is the rule in my opinion.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 19:42
61:40)  Katrina:
 I go with Henry, Fred seems to have it right.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 20:04
61:41)  Henry:
 CY and LB:  I just said the coordinate structures *may* work
 and put a question mark on my example.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 20:08
61:42)  Rob:
 Sorry Katrina and Fred I think you both are wrong concerning pronoun and
 antecednet distance (see item #38)  Whan I looked at both of those sentences,
 I felt that neither of them make sense.  I think the trick to this assignment
 is to state the rule in one sentence.  Oh no!  It's the revenge of Occam's
 razor.  :)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 22:45
61:43)  Kevin:
 I don't know, Rob.  I've seen some frighteningly long sentences.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 62    Apr07/94 14:55     2 lines    54 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 3 (Transliteration)

 This item is for discussion of Question 3 (Transliteration)
 on the final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   54 responses
- - - - -
Apr08/94 19:58
62:1)  Jill:
 Do you spell the title 'A few aphorisms'-is that the word??
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:07
62:2)  Kevin:
 That's how I spell it.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:10
62:3)  Jill:
 I am having troubl with the first selection end of the third line.
 the part k shwa v??
- - - - -
Apr08/94 23:55
62:4)  Kevin:
 It fits in nicely with the preceding "word" to make three English words.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 04:18
62:5)  Jake:
 Who is Tam Robins? Her little "aphorism" confused me so much I have no
 idea if my trans is right.
  
 PS: How do you spell "Vonogut"?
- - - - -
Apr09/94 11:12
62:6)  John Lawler:
 Jake, it's not /taem/, it's /tam/.  Say it aloud and regret your pronoun
 choice.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 11:15
62:7)  Henry:
 Jake, I think it is Tom Robbins and Kurt Vonnegut.  I am also having trouble
 wi with the third line of the first selection.  How does the glottal fit in
 with "it's every man"?  And what is that "thing" preceding "with death"?
- - - - -
Apr09/94 11:50
62:8)  Dawn:
 Henry, I'm down in the computer lab right now, so I don't have it with me, 
 but I believe it's "wrestle with death" . . .
 If anyon could confirm that, I'd appreciate it :)
- - - - -
Apr09/94 13:34
62:9)  Kevin:
 the glottal is just a stop at the beginning of a worD.  but dawN is right 
 about "wrestle with deatH."
- - - - -
Apr09/94 18:39
62:10)  Jake:
 i AgReE: "WrEsTlE WiTH DeaTH" Is rIgHt.
 (oNLY kidDiNg, KeVIn)
  
 The entire "word" is: in their wrestle with death.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:09
62:11)  John Lawler:
 "their"?
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:20
62:12)  Jake:
 Sure, why not? Although it could be "in the wrestle with death".
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:56
62:13)  Mitul:
 Can anyone please write a basic summary of each aphorism.  I 'm having a 
 hard time making sense of my translation.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 23:37
62:14)  Jake:
 In 12, I meant:
 why not? I pronounced it the way it is written, and I get
 "in their wrestle with death"
  
 It might just be my dialect (I have a dialect?) but that's what I got.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 00:58
62:15)  Kevin:
 Hm.  I got "in the wrestle," but I can see why Jake got what he got.  After
 all, there are cases of consonan deletion.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 14:08
62:16)  Jill:
 I thought it was in the wrestle with death. I also spelled the third author
 Kurt Vonnegut. i still feel like these selections make no sense. Does 
 anyone else????
- - - - -
Apr10/94 14:08
62:17)  Mitchell:
 Rob and I were wondering how Tom Robbins would have asked for the
 salt.  Also, what does Tom Robbins say limitations are in the
 beginning of the fifth line?
- - - - -
Apr10/94 16:54
62:18)  John Lawler:
 He'd probably try to ask for the salt in an interesting way.
 
 Jake, I guess I can see how you might get that.  In your dialect.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 20:43
62:19)  Kiran:
 I got in the wrestle with death.
 I am also still having trouble with the third line of the first aphorism, and
 beginning of the second line of the second aphorism (..sayn widder..).  I 
 agree with everybody else in that my transcriptions make very little sense.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 21:47
62:20)  Calvin:
 i think 'sayn widdEr' is "shine with their".   Did anyone happen to figure
 out the first 'word' of the 4th line in the 2nd aphorism?
- - - - -
Apr10/94 22:05
62:21)  Mitchell:
 Kiran, you refer to the second aphorism, and yes, it is "Shine with their"
 Calvin, extending from the end of the third line, I have it as "the
 great order of love."
- - - - -
Apr10/94 22:10
62:22)  Sean:
 Calvin, I think that the first tap in the "word" is really the end of the
 last word in the previous line (giving us the word "great").  The rest of
 it seems to sound like "order of" [does that even make sense??  Oh well...]
    As for the "their wrestle" vs. "the wrestle" debate, wouldn't "the
 wrestle" be the only one that is grammatically correct (since words like
 "every", "each", etc... are treated as singular words in English grammar
 and "their" is plural) ?
- - - - -
Apr10/94 22:13
62:23)  Sean:
 OOPS, Mitchell. Looks like you beat me to the punch. Well, at least we are
 in agreement about what that beginning of the fourth line is.  Now, if this
 passage only made an iota of sense...
- - - - -
Apr10/94 22:17
62:24)  Henry:
 Thanks Dawn and everyone else.  In the fifth line of aphorism 2, Mitchell,
 it *might* be "detaining".
- - - - -
Apr11/94 09:55
62:25)  Alana:
 I just wanted to make sure about something...the spaces are mixed up, 
 but all of the punctuation is correct, right?  That is how it has been
 working out so far for me, but I wanted to be sure.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 12:30
62:26)  John Lawler:
 As far as I know, Alana.  I tried not to screw up the punc.tua, tion  .
 Of course, commas are a personal matter, but these are copied from
 written originals.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 15:36
62:27)  Amy:
 My group got something else for the fifth line of aphorism.  We thought
 it might be 'deadening'.  That is if it's a word.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 15:42
62:28)  Amy:
 We can't figure out line one of the second aphorism.  What does the
 nint^hen mean?  
- - - - -
Apr11/94 15:48
62:29)  Jill:
 i believe it is-than an intense...
 I am having trouble figuring out what goes after that.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 15:59
62:30)  Lee:
 I think its "than an intensification or illumination..."
 Mitchell: I also think its "deadening" which makes sense.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 17:49
62:31)  Calvin:
 Should the first letters of the words in 'a few aphorisms' and 'various
 authors' be capitalized for the write-up?  Also, what's that dude's name in
 the 1st aphorism (spelling, that is)?  Wasn't it Alexei Panshin?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:54
62:32)  Mitchell:
 It was Alexei Panshin, Calvin.  
- - - - -
Apr11/94 20:50
62:33)  Calvin:
 thanks.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 21:15
62:34)  Calvin:
 You know, i can't help but wonder that maybe Kurt Vonnegut was the misguided
 individual who studied for many years and found himself no wiser than before
 and was thus murderously resentful of us cool Linguistics pupils who gained
 our knowledge the easy way...hmmmmmmmmm. ( 2 more weeks to go...)
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:58
62:35)  Henry:
 Lee was right.  The word in line 5 is "deadening".
 By the way, I have never had profane language on a final before.
 This has truly been a class of firsts for me.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 00:00
62:36)  John Lawler:
 I didn't compose it, Tom Robbins did.  I'm not his editor.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 18:09
62:37)  Dawn:
 The Vonnegut selection does not even make complete sentances as far as
 I can tell
- - - - -
Apr12/94 20:04
62:38)  Jake:
 Actaully, they are. Just different sentances. Plays on words on soforth.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 22:21
62:39)  Dale:
 It was quite odd (but quite funny) translating fucking.  We weren't sure if
 that was right or not.  But since John gave it to us, we figured that it 
 was probably correct.   :):):):):):):):)
- - - - -
Apr13/94 11:43
62:40)  Jill:
 samw with us- we did not think it was right.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:22
62:41)  Stephanie:
 Dawn and I had a good laugh about that one too...then i retransed
 it during a music concer, and had to contain my laughtr...definitely
 a class of firsts...
 We are having trouble with the /?mn.?/ in the third (vonnegut)
 four "words" in...last line...any ideas?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:26
62:42)  Mitchell:
 SAM, "murderous resentment"
- - - - -
Apr13/94 21:43
62:43)  Samuel:
 I am having trouble with the last line (in bold) of the second aphorism.
 I have "Enough rays depressing ????????? these premises!"
 Is this kind of right or an I way of?
 If I am off can someone give me a hint?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:02
62:44)  Samuel:
 I am also having trouble with the "kowin s@denteln" in the first line of
 the last aphorism.
 Also I need help with the fourth word on the third line of the first
 aphorism.
 Thanks
- - - - -
Apr14/94 10:12
62:45)  Mitul:
 SLV, I think the last bold line is "Unauthorized personnel not allowed on
 these premesis!"  "kowin s@denteln" is coincidental.  Hope this helps.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 10:42
62:46)  Samuel:
 Thanks Mitul.  It clarified many things!
- - - - -
Apr14/94 11:11
62:47)  John Lawler:
 Pass that through a spell-detector, Mitul.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:11
62:48)  Henry:
 Premises, Mitul.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:12
62:49)  Stephanie:
 does spelling count <giggle> ;)
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:16
62:50)  Jake:
 Yes. Fortunatly, this is one of the few assignments we can actaully put
 through a spell-checker ;-)
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:38
62:51)  Alana:
 what is the first word of the second line of the first aphorism?  The one
 starting with t^h...?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:55
62:52)  Henry:
 Alana, that is part of the word "mortality".
- - - - -
Apr14/94 19:29
62:53)  Katrina:
 I came on a little late but the (wrestler (oops) with death line I 
 believe is "It's every man for himself in the race with death" correct 
 me if I am wrong.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 19:40
62:54)  Melissa:
 Guys, just a little hint.  I think that a lot of people are making the
 mistake of trying to separate these things into words too much, and
 that really can't be done.  You really have to rely fairly heavily
 on context and not focus so much on individual units.  Also, thanks
 to Lee who saved me from linguistic shame awhile back:  I had
 "intensive occasion"(laugh) instead of "intensification". :)


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 63    Apr07/94 14:56     2 lines    35 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 4 (Paradigm)

 This item is for discussion of Question 4 (Paradigm) on the
 final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   35 responses
- - - - -
Apr08/94 12:07
63:1)  Lisa:
 I don't think this problem will be much of a problem.  I'm not sure what
 all the words mean, but it seems like you can make paradigms for function
 (time vs. place) or form (wh-, h-,th) (and endings, -ither, -ence etc.).
 The only problem I have is the word that "sticks out like a sore thumb"
 (Now, right?).  I have no clue what "phenomenom" this represents.  I've
 tried to think of what word or words it could have derived from in Olde
 English, and I can't think of anything.  Anybody have any ideas?
- - - - -
Apr08/94 13:02
63:2)  Mitchell:
 Lisa, you may want to describe these terms with phrases we use in 
 Latin class--like "place from which", "place to which", "time when",
 etc.  I don't know if such phrases have more technical names, but
 I've been taking Latin for 2 years, and we've got along just fine
 with the terminology above.  I'll suggest more ideas when I get a 
 chance to analyze the problem more closely.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 13:07
63:3)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Lisa, it's the same phenonmen we discussed regarding "went" being the
 past tense of "go".  For those of you who don't know the meaning of the
 words (like "whence"), the dictionary has these, even though they['re
 archaic.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 11:22
63:4)  Henry:
 I do not understand why now is different.  I looked it up and found 
 the definition "at the present time" which seems like it should fit
 in with a time vs. place paradigm.  By the way, can we have multiple
 words in the same "slot" in this paradigm?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 14:24
63:5)  Leonora Sanchez:
 Henry, "now" fits inthe paradigm as far as function is concerned, but if
 you look at its form, it is very different from the others.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 15:29
63:6)  Amy:
 Where exactlty are we supposed to look to find the name for the phenomenon
 that the 'sore thumb' (now) is an example of?  My group and I have no idea
 what it might be.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 16:02
63:7)  Lee:
 I've got the same problem.  I have the paradigm solved, as well as the row
 and column labels, and the formal similarities are easy.  I agree that 
 "now" is the sore thumb, but I don't know the name for the phenomenon.  Where
 would I find the name for the phenomenon?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 18:47
63:8)  Dawn:
 Professor Lawler: Is this what you told us, in section, that we wouldn't
 know?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 21:21
63:9)  John Lawler:
 No, this was what I told you in the "Glossary" item you'd regret
 chatting instead of.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 18:23
63:10)  Calvin:
 can this mystery be solved by being 'basic' in thought?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:24
63:11)  Stephanie:
 is it IN the glossary item???
 as far as now in old eng.....could it be nonce?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:28
63:12)  Mitchell:
 Rob, Tom and I checked the glossary, SAM, and the item wasn't in there.
 However, checking my AHD, there is a listing for "nonce word": a word
 occurring, invented, or used just for a particular occasion."
 By jove, I think we've got it (?) :-)
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:27
63:13)  John Lawler:
 That's a good definition, but it applies to "thingamajig" and "gadget"
 and "whatchamacallit", but not to "now".
 
 I *know* I've mentioned it in class.  I always make a point of it.
 What do you call the kind of inflection that makes "went" stick out
 in the following:
 
     hit     hit      hit
     read    read     read
     sit     sat      sat
     wring   wrung    wrung
     ring    rang     rung
     sleep   slept    slept
     tape    taped    taped
     go      went     gone
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:43
63:14)  Stephanie:
 i dont remeber anything like that.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:53
63:15)  Calvin:
 irregularity?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 11:15
63:16)  John Lawler:
 That's too general.  "irregularity" applies to everything in the
 list in :13 except "taped".
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:15
63:17)  Henry:
 JL, did you say we need to have two paradigms?  Would just one and
 a discussion of function be OK?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 19:43
63:18)  Melissa:
 Oh, *guys*--Hint: s...sss.pp..ll..eee(choke)
- - - - -
Apr14/94 20:15
63:19)  Calvin:
 Let me guess... is it "spelling"? (:-0)=||||||-------<
- - - - -
Apr14/94 23:22
63:20)  John Lawler:
 Henry, there are two paradigms that fit over one another.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 13:54
63:21)  Amy:
 I am not following this line of thought at all. If now is the "sore thumb"
 that we all agree on...then how do we explain it? I mean, spelling can't be
 the answer...that is impossibly easy. And JL says iregularity is out of the
 question...so, what does that leave us? The only thing I can come up with as
 a difference for now is that it can be used with any of the other words
 listedd. The other words ore not able to be used together...exceot for now.
 Does anyone think this may be plausible??
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:35
63:22)  Calvin:
 the answer is suppletion.  With a lot of mental pain, it was eventually
 solved in discussion last friday. Oh, by the way, ignore that 'spelling'
 proposal in my previous response.  Sorry!\
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:40
63:23)  Lee:
 JL, what are you talking about with two paradigms that fit over one another?
 I thought I had this solved with a 4 x 3 paradigm for meanings, but now
 I'm starting to think you're trying to mess me up.  Say it ain't so.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:56
63:24)  Henry:
 It is so.  This is easy, Lee.  Just do a formal paradigm with the 
 similar word endings one side and the first couple letters (wh, th, h) on
 the other and a functional one with the definition similarities
 on the sides.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:10
63:25)  Lee:
 So it isn't really two paradigms fitting over one another, but one 
 paradigm referenced by construction and by semantics?  Whew.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:37
63:26)  John Lawler:
 If you say so.  My favorite way of looking at it is two isomorphic paradigms.
 One is formed (independently) by looking at the forms. The other is formed by
 looking at the (original) meanings.  They fit over each other, and with one
 exception, every item in the formal paradigm symbolized two functional
 categories (1 row & 1 column). The single exception is empty in the formal
 paradigm, left out because it doesn't have the right form; but it *does* have
 the right meaning, and therefore we can fit it into the functional paradigm.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 09:10
63:27)  Dawn:
 If you lay the two over one another, you get one hole.  That is the now 
 that everyone is talking about
- - - - -
Apr18/94 11:58
63:28)  John Lawler:
 Bingo.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:06
63:29)  Sean:
 In the dictionary I used to look these words up, the "h-" words (but not
 "now") can refer to time OR place. Should I put them in the paradigm as
 such (which would mean a new column), or should I just count them as
 temporal (which was the first definition for each of them)?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 20:35
63:30)  Leonora Sanchez:
 What do all three words in the "h-" row have in common?  That should be your
 label for the row.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 10:13
63:31)  Mitul:
 All the words in the "h-" row refer to "this".  I found it's meaning in 
 the dictionary
- - - - -
Apr20/94 01:26
63:32)  Jake:
 I called it the "neighboring" form, as opposed to the "indefinate"
 or (get this -- I must have been tripping) the "Provincial"
 (because I didn't know any latin for it, and an hour of searching through
 my Linguists bible (thanks to John's RC class again) didn't help.)
- - - - -
Apr20/94 17:14
63:33)  Kevin:
 Funny.  I called them "this" "that" and "what".  Of course, I also called
 my Skagit reduplications Diminutive, Fred, and Irving.
- - - - -
Apr21/94 15:54
63:34)  Rob:
 I'm sorry Keving but you are wrong.  The correct terms are Steve, Anne, and
 Bob.
- - - - -
Apr21/94 17:51
63:35)  Kevin:
 Rats.  And after all that work I put in, too.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 64    Apr07/94 14:58     2 lines    26 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 5 (Polish)

 This item is for discussion of Question 5 (Polish) on the
 final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   26 responses
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:09
64:1)  Kevin:
 Just a bit of drift:  I have the lyrics to "Someone Keeps Moving My Chair"
 in Polish.  I have no idea how accurate the translation is.
  
 Back on target:  I found this problem to be very easy.  My largest problem
 has been deciding what to call the "albo" and "czy" particles.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:14
64:2)  Jill:
 Is the construction for the questions just to move is to the front followed
 by the noun(subj) then the rest and rest of sentence. The problem naming them
 is isin the first five is jest and in the questions is czy. Same problem with
 or.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 21:29
64:3)  Mitchell:
 Kevin' I've never heard of that song, in any language.  I suppose you
 could call the "albo" an either/or particle (since that's how it's
 translated), while czy (pronounced "chi", short "i") could be a
 question particle.  Jill, I don't think you need to move the verb,
 just eliminate the albo and start each segment with czy.  (On a person
 -al note: I asked my mother about the two ways you say "or" in Polish
 once, since I had heard my grandmother use them (and the context she
 was using them in was not exactly pleasant--something like "Either
 Mitchell is doing something bad or Michelle (my sister) is doing
 something worse.)  But my Mom, either because she didn't know or had
 no burning desire to elaborate on the issue, didn't tell me--until now,
 that is.)  Now my Polish vocabulary is vastly enriched since I now know
 how to say "date" in Polish.
- - - - -
Apr08/94 23:57
64:4)  Kevin:
 Jill:  what Mitchell said.
  
 Mitchell:  it's on They Might Be Giants' album "Flood."
- - - - -
Apr09/94 18:00
64:5)  John P:
 i'm curious as to how the responses to these questions are formulated.  
 are they yes/no, or is it 'policeman,' which seems more logical.  i know 
 that in chinese (i think) you do questions like 'duck--see, not see?' and 
 answer 'see' or 'not see.'  
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:10
64:6)  John Lawler:
 They are *not* yes/no.  They are "choose one".
- - - - -
Apr10/94 10:56
64:7)  Abheek:
 Prof. Lawler- What do you mean by formal similarities? Do you mean
 similaritites in the construction of the word?
- - - - -
Apr10/94 16:55
64:8)  John Lawler:
 Yes.  "formal" means "having to do with form".  As opposed to "functional",
 which means "having to do with function", as in meaning.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 20:53
64:9)  Kiran:
 I don't think this makes a difference in answering this problem, but I think
 there is a typo.  In #4 the word lesson is spelled lekcje, and in #9 it is 
 spelled lekcjke.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 22:07
64:10)  Mitchell:
 I think you're right, Kiran.  The first spelling is correct, the second
 isn't. (Lose the second K)
- - - - -
Apr10/94 23:35
64:11)  John Lawler:
 Good point, Kiran and Mitchell. Typo it is.  I'll correct it
 for future generations of students. :-)
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:30
64:12)  Calvin:
 Are we required to list all the morphemes and their English equivalents for
 this particular write-up?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 21:21
64:13)  John Lawler:
 Nah, just describe the structures and list any paradigms.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:28
64:14)  Kiran:
 I have a question about what the word sie in sentences #5 and # 10 means. 
 The only thing I could come up with is that it is a passive marker.  Does
 anyone agree or disagree?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:48
64:15)  Jake:
 I agree, it looks like a passive marker.
  
 Also, what is it written in? It doesn't look phonetic. Font?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:58
64:16)  John Lawler:
 You don't have enough information to take it apart, Kiran.  It might
 be passive, or it might be an idiom.  But it doesn't affect the 
 questions of the problem.
 
 Jake, I use the "LinguistNY" font for most of my stuff.  It's proprietary
 so I can't give it away.  This is standard Polish spellingk; L with a
 bar is pronounced like /w/, and a vowel with a cedilla is nasalized.
 (Remember paczki?)
- - - - -
Apr12/94 14:54
64:17)  Kiran:
 My group and I were wondering why in sentences with "is" or "has" does the
 word albo come after the word, but in sentences where the main verb is
 something else (i.e. is reading) it comes before the verb.  At first we
 thought it was because of transitivity/intransitivity, but I don't think
 "has" is intransitive .  Does it possibly have anything to do with action
 verbs/ non-action verbs?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 00:05
64:18)  Gail:
 Kiran, I thought that if the main verb of the sentence comes directly after
 the subject, then "albo" comes right after it, but if the main verb comes
 at the end of the sentence, like in #2, then "albo" comes after the subject.
 But I couldn't figure out any reason other than thats just how they do it.
 Anyone?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 11:45
64:19)  Jill:
 I thought that albo coming before or after a verb had to do with whether 
 the sentence was transitive or not-anyone else get that?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 13:25
64:20)  Kiran:
 Well, I just thought of another possibility, and I wanted to see if anyone
 agreed with this one.  Maybe if there is only one verb (#1,3,4,,5), albo
 comes after the verb, but if there are two verbs (#2), albo comes before each
 of them.What do you guys think???
- - - - -
Apr13/94 14:15
64:21)  Jill:
 sounds good kiran!!
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:28
64:22)  Stephanie:
 we thought that perhaps the albo preceded the predicate nominatives
 in all cases. did anyone else find this?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:41
64:23)  Samuel:
 I think you must look at "reading a book" and "writing a letter" as 
 contituents.  Same with #1 "a detective" and "a policeman".  It is
 either (albo) this or (albo) that.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:19
64:24)  Jake:
 Uh, I was under the assumption that the "albo"s come before that part of 
 the sentance being determined between. So it's sort of arbitrary. Just so 
 that no duplication of unnecessary part occurs.
 
 Just as in English, we say:
 He is either reading or writing
 
 instead of:
 
 He either is reading or is writing.
 
- - - - -
Apr15/94 11:44
64:25)  Tara:
 I agree with Jake, words that apply to both either/or statements are
 just pulled out in the begining of the sentence to limit redundancy.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 12:21
64:26)  John Lawler:
 Remember, you don't have to *explain* the construction; you just
 have to *describe* it well.  Explanations are very hard to prove;
 and you don't really know *why* something happens.  There are a lot
 of possible hypotheses, and not many good ways to decide among them.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 65    Apr07/94 14:59     2 lines    21 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 6 (Czech)

 This item is for discussion of Question 6 (Czech) on the
 final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   21 responses
- - - - -
Apr10/94 20:56
65:1)  Kiran:
 I am a little confused as to sentences 11-15 in this problem.  Are these
 relative clauses already, because they don't make any sense to me. Or are
 we supossed to make them into relative clauses.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 23:34
65:2)  John Lawler:
 Read the instructions again.  They are relative clauses already.
 Not sentences.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 12:42
65:3)  Mitul:
 I am confused about the sentences 1-5. I was thinking that "that" is "to"
 with young females, "ta" with older females, and "ten " with males.  But in 
 Number 5, little red riding hood is "ta".  Is "that" not related to gender
 or age in numbers 1-5?  
- - - - -
Apr11/94 17:46
65:4)  Calvin:
 M.D, i was thinking that maybe 
 "ta" has something to do with proper/formal nouns.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:22
65:5)  Nicholas:
 Does Czech use ergative or nominative? we don't have any intransitive 
 sentences to answer that question.  Not that it matters all that much any 
 ways, but we wouldn't mind knowing... :)
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:28
65:6)  Jake:
 It's Indo-European, so I assume it's accusative.
 I don't believe ( and of course John will correct me on this if I'm
 wrong) that any Indo-European languages are ergative.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:58
65:7)  John Lawler:
 No European ones, at least.  Many Northern Indian languages are
 split ergative: accusative in one tense and ergative in the other.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 00:40
65:8)  Jake:
 I have a pronoun question:
 in my demonstrative "that" pronoun chart, I'm missing masc and fem, 
 inanimate, nominative as well as feminine animate accusative.
 I'm willing to bet "to" is a neuter gender, which then creates even more 
 blanks in the paradigms. *SIGH*
- - - - -
Apr12/94 15:21
65:9)  Vassoula:
 Jake-That's what I came up with that "to" is a neuter gender.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 22:28
65:10)  Dale:
 So is girl considered a "neuter" noun?  It would seem that it would be
 considered feminine, but child is also "neuter".
- - - - -
Apr12/94 23:56
65:11)  Jake:
 Why not? They are in German:
 Das Maedchen (the (neuter) girl)
 Das Kind (the (neuter) child)
 
 as opposed to:
 Die Frau (the (feminin) woman)
 Die Krawatte (the (fem) tie)
 
 Which leads to the sentance:
 
 Das Maedchen? Es ist im Keller. Und die Krawatte? Er ist im Schlafzimmer.
 
 "The girl? It's in the basement. And the scarf? She's in the sleeping room?"
- - - - -
Apr13/94 15:46
65:12)  Calvin:
 For the 1st morpheme of each clause of data 11-15, can we assume that it is
 in the nominative case already?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 19:17
65:13)  Nicholas:
 This neuter thing makes sense especially when you think of where 
 Czecoslovakia is situated geographically.  It has a large community of 
 german speaking folk which might explain that neuter thing.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:14
65:14)  Vassoula:
 Also in Greek, a young girl is the nueter case.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 23:57
65:15)  Fred:
 I think if you compare the word "man" in 1, 3, and 11 you have to think that
 the first NPs of the relative clauses are nominative.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 16:51
65:16)  Kevin:
 Looks like it to me, Fred.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 16:52
65:17)  Henry:
 I have a four by three paradigm which includes subject, object, pronoun
 and then young females, old females, males, neuter.  Is there a better
 way to do this?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:12
65:18)  Katrina:
 I think its a three by three paridigm with subject, object, pronoun with
 masculine, femanine, and neuter (which includes young girl).  That's
 just my opinion though.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:59
65:19)  Henry:
 I have the young female object article as to and the older female 
 object article as ta.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:41
65:20)  Gail:
 When describing the basic pattern, are we just supposed to say the order of
 the parts of the sentence? I don't understand how we find the case system. 
 Any help?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 13:55
65:21)  Leonora Sanchez:
 YOu should look at the nouns and the determiners ("that") to find the case
 system.  Also give the paradigms for the determiners and the pronouns.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 66    Apr07/94 15:00     2 lines    29 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 7 (Skagit)

 This item is for discussion of Question 7 (Skagit) on the
 final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   29 responses
- - - - -
Apr09/94 17:57
66:1)  John P:
 our group found this one pretty easy, all things skagit considered.
 are all noun plurals done with reduplication?
 
 gotta love those idioms.  :)
 
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:12
66:2)  John Lawler:
 Noun plurals are rarely expressed unless it's important to the
 sense of the sentence, like the way it is in most languages
 without obligatory noun plural.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:20
66:3)  Nicholas:
 Professor, what do you mean by phonological reduplication?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:31
66:4)  Abheek:
 I'd like to also ask what you mean by phonological
 reduplication? And is it possible for some processes to have
 different semantical meanings? 
- - - - -
Apr11/94 20:50
66:5)  Calvin:
 if I am correct, phonological reduplication concerns the particular sounds in
 a morphemes that are reduplicated and morphological reduplication concerns
 what morpheme type is reduplicated and how it is done.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 21:11
66:6)  Tom:
 Calvin,I beleive that you are correct on this.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 00:53
66:7)  Sarah:
 I have a question about #20, danced all over. I made a column for "all over"
 and everything works except this, "jubub" any suggestions?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 09:58
66:8)  John Lawler:
 "All over" is an English idiom, and is unlikely to be an accurate
 translation of a Skagit grammatical process.  Look a little deeper
 at the meaning.  As for what "works", that depends on how you're
 analyzing the morphological process.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 20:10
66:9)  Jake:
 I've found a name for the type of reduplication that happens in #3:
 ubiquitive
 
 Anybody like?
 It works for everything except for "dance", which forms its ubiquitive 
 "jujub", not the exspected "jubjub".
 
 Also, I can't figure out what the reduplication in #4 does.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 20:37
66:10)  Jake:
 Wait a sec! I got it!
 
 the type of reduplication in #3 is ubiquitive, but in spots - everywhere, 
 a little bit at a time; whereas #4 is distributive (my name for it) - it is 
 also ubiquituous, but all at once. The meaning changes slightly when you 
 have a singular subject (like in #11), because one person cannot be 
 everywhere at once.
 
 Opinions?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 20:39
66:11)  Abheek:
 When you ask for morphological duplication, does that mean then that
 you have to give a different morpheme? I'm a bit confused with the
 directions.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 15:53
66:12)  Lisa:
 I was wondering about the directions, also.  I understand that you have
 to describe the reduplications in terms of morphemes reduplicated and
 what meaning groups they fall into, but the phonological part I'm not
 sure about.  
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:30
66:13)  John Lawler:
 Phonological means how you decide exactly what the phonetic changes are
 between the root and the various reduplications.  "reduplication" itself
 is a phonological term, no?  But exactly *how* and *what* gets reduplicated?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:47
66:14)  Stephanie:
 two questions
 1) is /s/ after /?u/ in 1-7 a nominalizer or part of the verb morpheme
 2) does reduplication go before or in the middle of the root...
 ir does it not matter?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 21:32
66:15)  Rob:
 My answer for SAM's number two is that one can't tell from the data whether
 the redup. goes before or in the middle of the root.  I also think that it
 is impossible for anyone to tell.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 02:55
66:16)  Anand:
 Jake, what is the definiton for ubiquitive?  I couldn't find it 
 in my dicitonary.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 02:02
66:17)  Jake:
 Well, cause it's not. But "ubiquous" is. I invented it using John's
 name-formation rules he gave us in class. I'll define it as "the class 
 that indicates the quality of being everywhere (within a given field)"
  Good Enough?
 
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:12
66:18)  John Lawler:
 "Ubiquitive" would work.  The name used in the literature is "distributive".
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:49
66:19)  Lee:
 My classes are:diminutive, augmentative, and "unfocused energy" group.
 SAM: I think s are part of the verb roots, and the reduplication appears
   in the middle of the root, I think (look at 13, and keep in mind that JL
   said that under certain conditions, the vowel in reduplication is lost.
   Since the vowel is lost after the second kw, I would say redup. appears
   in the middle.)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:38
66:20)  Jake:
 John (and all), I called one type of reduplication "distributive"
 and another "ubiquitive". I didn't like the term "augmentive". Sounds 
 like some from New Jersey who has an axe to grind :) :) :)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 07:51
66:21)  John Lawler:
 It's "augmentative" in the literature.  I don't care what you call it.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 13:55
66:22)  Kevin:
 Can I call it "Fred"?  Or would that just be too silly?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 14:06
66:23)  John Lawler:
 We usually prefer "Irving".
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:05
66:24)  Henry:
 So are "He's run down" and "scurried around..." ubiquitive or distributive?
 My dictionary is not helping.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 19:53
66:25)  Kevin:
 "He's run down" looks suspiciously like a Skagit idiom (like "lodgepole
 pine").
- - - - -
Apr18/94 20:09
66:26)  Rob:
 Think of "He's run down" as being he's tired throughout his body.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 22:46
66:27)  Kevin:
 Yeah.  He's starved (for energy) everywhere.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 23:14
66:28)  Henry:
 Thank You. (Response #100)
- - - - -
Apr19/94 02:20
66:29)  Dawn:
 I had it as one of those things that we used in the last Skagit, that filled
 in a new meaning for a word when there was no use for the construction in
 existence.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 67    Apr07/94 15:01     2 lines    33 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 8 (Latin)

 This item is for discussion of Question 8 (Latin) on the
 final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   33 responses
- - - - -
Apr10/94 22:29
67:1)  Henry:
 After finishing Part 1, I approached Part 2 in the same way and found 
 five classes.  However, I could not find any thematic vowels or vowel
 patterns.  I think that that hint in Part 2 is important for Part 3
 but I don't know how or why.  Help before I drown in a list of Latin verbs.
- - - - -
Apr10/94 23:29
67:2)  Tom:
 I seemed to have little trouble either with Part 1 or Part 2.  But I am also 
 stuggling with Part 3.  Has anyone made any ground on Part 3.  I also came up
 with five classes just as Henry has.
- - - - -
Apr11/94 19:18
67:3)  Nicholas:
 Hmmm that's interesting, we came up with four classes and four 
 processes... what are your five classes HK and TJ?
- - - - -
Apr11/94 23:32
67:4)  Kiran:
 I could also only find four classes of verbs.  HELP!
- - - - -
Apr12/94 00:05
67:5)  Henry:
 If I thought I was right, Nicolas, I would pass on the info.
 But since I currently have *six* distinct classes in Part 3,
 I might not be the right person to ask.  Is it all right to
 have 4 processes and 6 classes?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 01:26
67:6)  Lucas:
 I might have found five classes but I am confused about long and
 short vowels.  How important are they to different classes.  Could
 one difference between a long and short vowel change classes?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 01:57
67:7)  Tara:
 Lucas, a long or short vowel does make a difference  in classes.
 Also looking at the stems of the verbs might help in finding five
 classes.  What are processes??
- - - - -
Apr12/94 10:01
67:8)  John Lawler:
 Henry, it does depend a bit on what you think of as "processes" and
 "classes".  Two of the things that *I* think of as "processes" have
 subclasses, with a grand total of 6 classes.  Does that help?
 
 Incidentally, the business about long/short vowels, and about 4 + 2
 classes/subclasses is very explicitly mentioned in the Hints.  Doesn't
 anybody read those things?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 21:02
67:9)  Jill:
 There is a difference between long and short vowels. As far as the five
 groups go it depends on what the infintives look like.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 00:48
67:10)  Tara:
 John, are you saying there are 6 classes of processes?
 If not, then what is a process?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 01:15
67:11)  John Lawler:
 A process is something that gets done (formally - i.e, to the form)
 of a root or stem to change its shape.  An example of one process is
 German's adding a ge- prefix to all past participles.  Another one
 is Indonesian noun reduplication (e.g, gunung-gunung).  In the
 Skagit problem discussion today in class, I was asked about the word
 that means "mouse"; that's an example of a subclass -- a variation --
 on a procedure that occurs elsewhere.  In that case, the vowel
 of the root disappears after reduplication, where it doesn't in
 other cases with the same reduplication.  So you'd have to say it
 was lexical, and say there were two lexically-determined varieties
 of the same process, one with root vowel deletion and one without.
 Otherwise they're the same.
 
 Clearer?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:45
67:12)  Tara:
 Yeah, thanks!
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:11
67:13)  Henry:
 I have this class in Part 3 which includes the endings ivi, avi, 
 and evi.  In all but a couple of examples the first vowel in each
 of these seems to come from the infinitive unlike in any other class.
 The exceptions I got were cupio and peto.  How should I account 
 for this?
- - - - -
Apr14/94 23:29
67:14)  John Lawler:
 Remember when I talked in class today about the two varieties of
 the Present stem: the Thematic stem and the Athematic stem?
 Some verbs only have an Athematic stem (actually, they're technically
 consonant stems, and there isn't any thematic vowel), while some
 have both kinds, and their Athematic stem is formed simply by removing
 the thematic vowel.
 
 Well, notice that the particular reduplicative process we did today
 in class used the Athematic stem only.  It's possible that another
 process might have two different shapes depending on whether it
 used a Thematic or an Athematic stem.  And the type that *required*
 the Thematic stem wouldn't be able to work on a verb that had only
 an Athematic stem, right?  So, just like the case in English where
 you go and get an auxiliary verb even if you don't have one, and the
 auxiliary you get is "do"), in Latin you go and get a long vowel
 even if you didn't already have one, and the one you get is long /i/.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 00:30
67:15)  Henry:
 So is it the second to last vowel of the infinitive which tells
 you if the stem can be both Athematic and Thematic (if the vowel
 is long)?  Is that the point of the last question before the 
 hints?  Sorry, I think Sammy in back of me put earplugs in
 my ears during lecture. 
- - - - -
Apr15/94 03:08
67:16)  Tara:
 yep Henry, I think that if the infinitive ends in an -ire then it is 
 only a athematic stem (that's a short i).  Otherwise it can be
 thematic, except for the Perfect stem, which is always athematic.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 11:34
67:17)  Tara:
 Hi I'm correcting what I just said, it was a late night!!  (=
   I meant to say that infinitives that end in (short E)-RE should
 be athematic stems- there are NO short 'i's!!  Opps!  (=
- - - - -
Apr15/94 22:32
67:18)  Calvin:
 in Parts 1 and 2, when we list the stems of the verbs, do we list them like
 this {root+stem} or this {stem}?
- - - - -
Apr16/94 13:59
67:19)  Tara:
 I don't have my problem in front of me, but I think that in class the stem
 for amo, amare - love   was listed as  am-a-  (it's a long 'a' too)  for the
 prese  t tense. hope that helps!
- - - - -
Apr16/94 17:26
67:20)  Jennifer:
 i  oops.  I have a question on part 3 -- we were a little confe confused on
 the perfect forns of some of the verbs and if they were included in the
 procedures.  The forms that were confusing us were those of fallere, parcere,
 pe  parere, morde-re.  If these are included in the procedures for their
 irregularities, then it seems to me that there would be more that 6
 procedures. can anyone give some advice?
- - - - -
Apr16/94 18:30
67:21)  Sean:
 JW, I believe that there are only six procedures, but you are dealing with
 one of the main four that has two subclasses.  A possible hint is that I
 don't think that you should group morde:re with the other three verbs that
 you have in your above response.  When you look at the other three, you may
 notice a little change going on with (a) certain vowel(s). This does not
 seem to be the case with morde:re, though.   Hope that helps. :-)
- - - - -
Apr17/94 01:36
67:22)  Calvin:
 In part 2, should the stem(s) of each verb be listed in a paradigm or as Tara
 mentioned in resp 19 the first person sing. verb stem would be sufficient?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:14
67:23)  John Lawler:
 Calvin, the point of positing a stem is to get away from having a separate
 paradigm for each verb.  You have one paradigm for endings, and one
 root for each verb, then the formula simplifies to Stem + Ending.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:14
67:24)  Stephanie:
 I was also wondering that...ithink. For example. Should we say
 'love'   am(a:)- for the stem. That seems ok to me, but i was
 wondering if it looks ok to anyone else.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:16
67:25)  Stephanie:
 For the present, however, we should have five different paradigms
 correct?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:18
67:26)  John Lawler:
 Correct to both, Stephanie.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 13:14
67:27)  Calvin:
 If that's so, why is am(a:)- a stem.  I thought you said in resp 23 that it
 sld be stem+ending like in 'love':  0+o:, a:+s, a:+t, a:+mus, etc.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 13:26
67:28)  Amy:
 I am still having troubles with the "inflection classes". I guess I don't u
 understand exactly WHAT I am looking for. Can someone please explain it to
 me? Thanks...
- - - - -
Apr17/94 13:29
67:29)  Calvin:
 Maybe i'm making this Latin thingy harder than it really is, but anyway I
 have another question.  Is it assumed that the root of the verb is constant
 regardless of the tense?  I don't think that is necessarily so because the
 root for some verbs like 'say' and "write' changes from present to perfect
 (or vice versa).
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:30
67:30)  Stephanie:
 right. that is the point. The root remains the same, The question
 is really whether you drop the thematic vowel or not. and then in
 the two morph. changes the actualy root does change.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:08
67:31)  Henry:
 I think that the last letter of the stem changes in each slot of the
 paradigm.  The root and the present suffixes don't change.  The classes
 come from identical stem endings.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:15
67:32)  Tara:
 Calvin to clear up what you were asking in response 27 about the stem
  + ending thing, don't list them like you did there- listing them
 Stepanie's way resp 24, you have a separate list for stems and endings.
 Does that make sense??  Since the endings are the same for each word, it
 would be boring to type them over each time.  
   The other thing is that roots change for different tenses.  I guess
 the best example is the words that use reduplication in the perfect tense.
 This might not be what you are asking, I'm kinda confused.
   Amy, inflection classes are separate classes of words that respond 
 differently- like you can pick out differences in the words when endings
 are added.      Anyone feel free to jump in here!  (=
- - - - -
Apr18/94 11:01
67:33)  Amy:
 Ok...thanks alot Tara...that helps! :) 


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 68    Apr07/94 15:04     2 lines    32 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 9 (An American English Dialect)

 This item is for discussion of Question 9 (An American English
 Dialect) on the final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   32 responses
- - - - -
Apr08/94 20:05
68:1)  Jill:
 I found this problem to be very interesting. My only question is how many
 rules of order are there. I figured out one that has to go before another and
 gave an example but how many are we looking for.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 11:37
68:2)  Henry:
 I enjoyed this problem also.  I found the five processes.  However, I do
 not feel that all five of the processes need to be done in order.  My
 feeling is that those processes which use phonemic distinctions (I
 found two) must be utilized before those which concern phonetic 
 distinctions.  This is because, for example, you need to know which 
 vowels are long and stressed before you can tell which final dental 
 stop will be used.  Do all five processes need to be ordered?
- - - - -
Apr09/94 13:35
68:3)  Kevin:
 It didn't look like it to me.  But it looked like at least a few had to be
 in a certain order.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 19:13
68:4)  John Lawler:
 That's an interesting way to state the distinction, Henry.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 01:29
68:5)  Lucas:
 I also found the five processes, but I don't know exactly how it would 
 work to have an order.  Does this mean some processes take precedence
 over others?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 10:04
68:6)  John Lawler:
 More or less.  It means that, in the kind of model in which processes
 are applied to an input and produce an output, the input for some
 processes requires preprocessing by others.  "Rule Ordering", as it's
 known in the trade.  Only some, though; others don't care.
- - - - -
Apr12/94 21:02
68:7)  Jill:
 I only got two rules as far as ordering goes-are there more??
- - - - -
Apr12/94 21:05
68:8)  Jill:
 I have a question in regard to d changing to t at the end of a word. I can't
 figure out the rule whether it has something to do with semi vowels and long
 vowels or not-anyone figure it out???
- - - - -
Apr12/94 22:35
68:9)  Dale:
 JT, it seems that under certain conditions, d-->t, but the rule seems to
 simply be based on the vowel that immediately precedes the d. (hint)
 narrowing it down to one vowel won't be enough; front-back position and
 tense/lax diff. are significant.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 13:41
68:10)  John P:
 so far, we only had *one* ordering rule... oops!
 
- - - - -
Apr14/94 23:50
68:11)  Fred:
 I have found at least this ordering rule: One must first know if the vowel in
 the phonemic reading will change in the phonetic reading before one can know 
 whether the /d/ or /t/ will become a [tap].
- - - - -
Apr15/94 13:52
68:12)  John P:
 ok, we've found a second ordering rule...
 henry's response (68.2) was helpful, for those having problems...
 
- - - - -
Apr15/94 14:06
68:13)  John P:
 Now four out of the five are ordered.  It seems we spoke too soon :)
 
- - - - -
Apr16/94 11:25
68:14)  Henry:
 At first I thought that the diphthong rule and the long vowel rule
 needed to be ordered.  But now it seems that no matter which way
 you order them, you need to provide an exception for the second one.
 If anyone has figured this out, please respond.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 17:00
68:15)  Kevin:
 Henry, what exactly do you mean?  I don't think they need to be ordered.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:11
68:16)  Henry:
 I guess if you account for the other rule in first one you do, you
 don't need to order them.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:39
68:17)  Kevin:
 I'm still not sure exactly what you mean.  What I have indicates that
 those rules don't overlap.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 17:19
68:18)  Jennifer:
 I'm a little confused.  My group and I only found 2 ordering rules, and you
 two (Henry and Kevin) seem to be disputing what we have found.  Also, our
 tow rules seem to be very similar.  Does anyone else agree with me?  Please
 explain yourselves because we are really confused!
- - - - -
Apr17/94 17:51
68:19)  Calvin:
 I only needed one ordering rule in mine (?).  If a word underoges more than
 one process, any order will suffice unless the vowel-lengthening process is
 present.  In that case, this particular process takes precedent over the
 others.  Anyone else have the same thing?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 19:37
68:20)  Jennifer:
 my group also found the same thing.  but, we found that the changes in the
 centralized dipthongs procedes the changes regarding the taps.  
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:06
68:21)  Calvin:
 Oh, I see.  thanks.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:51
68:22)  Henry:
 Kevin, if you use all of the phonemic data available to determine
 one long vowel rule, there is some overlap because the diphthongs
 have a "y" and are not directly followed by a consonant.  As far
 as I know, a "y" is not voiced but yet the "a" in one of the 
 diphthongs is long.  This "hurts" my rule unless I account for
 it with a note.  
 JW+CY, I have really only one ordering rule which includes 
 three processes.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:13
68:23)  Lee:
 Is it okay if we just put our five rules in an order, as long as the ones 
 which must precede others end up that way.  By this I mean can we order
 the rules which don't need to be ordered and just say that "this is not
 the only possible ordering allowed"?
 (I hope so, because its what I'm planning on putting down.)
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:40
68:24)  John Lawler:
 Sure, as long as it works.  In a real analysis, that's a first draft
 kind of solution, and then you look for cases that would contradict
 the ordering you've proposed.  If you don't find them in this data,
 it's a good solution as long as it doesn't prevent any of the known
 data from occuring.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 22:35
68:25)  Rob:
 What our group is doing is that we are dividing the 5 rules into two groups
 and saying that the rules in one group must be done before the rules in the
 second group.  Also in response to Henry's #22 response, we are calling the
 ay and (schwa)y single vowel sounds.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 01:05
68:26)  Kevin:
 I see your point, Henry.  I though that "y" *was* voiced.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 01:05
68:27)  Kevin:
 I still think so, too.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 01:16
68:28)  Henry:
 JL, is every consonant on our chart that does not have a slash (/)
 voiced?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 07:58
68:29)  John Lawler:
 I don't know which chart you refer to, Henry.  Nor what you mean by
 "have a slash".  But it's very unlikely that I ever gave you a chart
 of consonants with all of them voiced.  Especially for English.
 
 As for the "y" ... I *said* they were semivowels. That means they don't
 fall cleanly into vowel or consonant class.  Sometimes it makes
 sense to call them vowels, sometimes consonants.  This time they're
 simply decorations on the vowels.  Think of [ay] and [@y] as diphthongs,
 i.e, things that pattern as simple vowels yet are complex constructions
 of a simple vowel and a semi-vowel.  The way you lengthen a diphthong
 is to lengthen the nuclear vowel, because if you lengthened the semivowel
 it'd stop being a semivowel and then you wouldn't have a diphthong any more,
 you'd have another syllable and a completely different stress pattern and
 most likely be incomprehensible (or at least dialectal -- this is what
 happens in dialects where "five" comes out [fay@v]).
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:09
68:30)  Henry:
 Sorry to be so vague.  The chart is the one we had 2 quizzes on.
 The slashes are the ones that discern not voiced/voiced consonants.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 20:48
68:31)  John Lawler:
 I'm still not sure what you mean by "have" a slash.  Or, wait... maybe
 you mean that they don't appear in pairs?  If they appear alone then
 they're voiced.  Aha, I bet that's it.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 23:16
68:32)  Henry:
 Yes!!!!


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 69    Apr07/94 15:03     2 lines    30 responses
John Lawler                        Prime=60
Final Exam - Question 10 (Shoshoni)

 This item is for discussion of Question 10 (Shoshoni) on the
 final exam.  There will be an item for each question.

   30 responses
- - - - -
Apr07/94 22:42
69:1)  Jin Ho:
 Okay, the last time I opened my mouth to say something intelligent on this
 confer, I ended up sticking my foot in it. But I'm giving this "defending
 your intelligence verbally" thing another try for the sake of my grade.  Here
 goes:  I'm not sure if this was discussed before, but I find it interesting
 that in Shoshoni, there are three ways to say the word for pine tree. At 
 first, I only noticed two, and thought it was just a way to mark its 
 position in the sentence (whatever you call that, I'm bad with 
 terminology, too) But I guess I'm wrong. Does anyone have any idea why 
 this is, those of you who've looked at it already? Or did Prof. Lawler 
 mention this before?  He probably did, so never mind. Ignore me, I 
 don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
- - - - -
Apr09/94 18:46
69:2)  Jake:
 I just finished the Shoshoni problem, so here's the low-down on "pine 
 tree":
 
 They do not have three different words for it, anymore than Latin has 6 
 different words for friend (amicus, amici, amico, amicum, amico, amice). 
 They are just in different cases. One is nominative, one is accusative, 
 and one is _plurl_ locative (I think that Shoshoni might have several 
 different locatives, but the problem doesn't have enough information to 
 detremine that).
 
 Here's a clue: don't try to figure verb morphology out. You can't, and it 
 isn't important. Just list every word, grouping them into related bits. 
 Then, the questions should be easy.
 
 (Also note there are some galring holes in the pronoun paradigms. Do you 
 want us to try to fill those in, John?)
  
- - - - -
Apr12/94 15:56
69:3)  Amy:
 Jake, what did you mean when you said 'locative'.  I don't thing I've
 ever heard of thst before.  Does it have something to do with location?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 18:59
69:4)  Nicholas:
 This is definitely THE fun problem of the final! Count on spending a 
 couple hours on this one!!! There is a lot to be understood.
 Professor, do you want us to list all the glosses?
- - - - -
Apr12/94 20:13
69:5)  Jake:
 I didn't (list all the glosses). I agree. This one was _fun_. (Which is 
 why I did it first).
 
 Amy, "locative" is a case, like nominative or accusative. It just means 
 "at where".
 
 Actually, this problem _shouldn't_ take long - it just does. :-)
- - - - -
Apr13/94 01:18
69:6)  John Lawler:
 I don't think you need to list all the glosses; you're asked to do
 plenty along that line already.  I agree, there's a lot to be
 understood.  But it's pretty close to the kind of fun that's to
 be had working on real languages.
 
 So, if somebody had told you last December that you'd be tranlating
 Shoshoni sentences before May and enjoying it, what do you think
 you'd've said to them? :-)
- - - - -
Apr13/94 13:38
69:7)  Kiran:
 My group was wondering if the word for he in #52 is a typo?  We think it
 should be suti-m.  We are also having trouble translating "The horses see the
 man". Does anyone have any suggestions how to go about doing this?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:06
69:8)  Lisa:
 About the horse question, we were looking at #18-20 to determine how
 to pluralize and 'double'ize a noun.  In 18, kammu-i is one rabbit with
 the object marker 'i', in 19, kammunihi meant the objectified two jack
 rabbits and kammunii meant the objectified more than two rabbits.  We
 were having difficulty agreeing on whether the -nihi and -nii were only
 plural markers or if the 'i's on the end necessarily meant 'this is an
 object'.  To me, it appeared that the 'i' must still be an object marker
 and not necessary to use when pluralizing the nominative.  But in #23,24
 the nominative 'men' use the same suffixes, including the 'i'.  I thought
 this might have something to do with the 'those' and 'these' that preceded
 men because they are almost like subjects in themselves.  That probably
 sounds kind of crazy, but I think either of our alternatives seem weak.
 Also, the word for man, 'sutin' is the same as the word for 'that', right?
- - - - -
Apr13/94 19:32
69:9)  Sarah:
 Can suti-n be both "he" and "that"? 
- - - - -
Apr14/94 15:15
69:10)  John Lawler:
 The *gloss* in number 52 is wrong.  It should be
    "She", not "He".  The Shoshoni sentence itself is fine.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 21:29
69:11)  Laurie:
 We found that the nouns decline (obviously) when changing cases but in a 
 variety of ways; might there be gender?  do these case suffixes connect to 
 the "general phonological rule" for the pronouns? What about the magical
 appearing and disappearing final nasal, mmmm...we wonder???
- - - - -
Apr14/94 23:30
69:12)  John Lawler:
 Well, "gender" is in the last analysis merely a technical name for
 "noun class".  So, yes, in that sense, there might well be gender.
 Though it's unlikely you can pin the distinction on anything as simple
 as sex.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 00:05
69:13)  Jin Ho:
 So which is the way to say "from where"? That's the one my group can't 
 find.
 
- - - - -
Apr15/94 12:22
69:14)  John Lawler:
 We discussed this in section today.  Why not summarize the discussion,
 Jin Ho?
- - - - -
Apr15/94 22:25
69:15)  Jin Ho:
 Ok, Prof. Lawler :)  We only touched briefly on the pardigmatic cases and 
 finding their names.  What I will say is that the case name for "from" 
 was taken from the Latin 'lative' and the word for 'from' was tagged on 
 to the front, so you get ablative.  Also, I discovered how 'allative' was 
 formed.  The Latin word for 'to' is 'ad' but with morphology, ad goes to 
 al when proceeded by an 'l', thus allative.  (Can you tell, I'm 
 discovering new ways to make use of my dictionary, besides squashing 
 bugs? ;) ) Also in discussion, we talked bout the American English 
 problem and how the order of processes depend upon a 'feed' or 'bleed' 
 idea.  As Prof. Lawler pointed out, if you don't unmask anything that 
 becomes important in the conditioning environ. of another rule, that 
 later rule is rendered only partially useful.  Perhaps everyone already 
 sees this, but it can never hurt to have things made all the more 
 clearer.  And one more thing, I have a question on problem 4.  My group 
 found it very interesting that if you classify the words as (whither, 
 hither, thither), (whence, hence, thence), (where, here, there), and 
 (now, then, when), you see that this last class is the oddball because it 
 deals with time and not relative location like the rest.  So if locative 
 refers to a class that denotes "at" a location, how, if at all, does this 
 apply to a class that refers to time?
 
- - - - -
Apr16/94 11:06
69:16)  John Lawler:
 Good point, Jin Ho.  What you seem to have is one time category,
 unramified, and then a space category that has three varieties.
 Space is more complex and experiential than time.  It'd be interesting
 to ask whether one *could* have three time categories (before then,
 after then, then?).  Or, perhaps, is that what the space words are
 being used for today?  Metaphorically, of course.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 23:29
69:17)  Amy:
 Help!  Someone please help us and answer Laurie's inquiry.  I'm in her
 group and we're wondering what is going on with the magical disappearing
 and reappearing m's.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 01:08
69:18)  Calvin:
 check the morphemes following those magical m's and n's; assimilation could
 be lurking around >:-[}  <--- my name is dracula!!! Hear me bite!!! (less
 than two weeks to go!)
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:14
69:19)  Henry:
 I think that they reappear depending on the initial consonant of the 
 following word only if the word they reappear in was in it's base
 form.  Cute, Calvin.  Anyone???
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:57
69:20)  Geoffrey:
 How about an -m when the following sound is bi-labial and an -n when the
 foll-ing sound is alveolar?  It looks like this works for almost every
 instance, except for the occasional k and that's velar.  It's kind of a
 "tongue movement
  conservation" idea.  Then again I could be just stupid.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 16:02
69:21)  Kevin:
 No, that looks good to me.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 16:19
69:22)  Amy:
 Thanks for the ideas.  I'll go back and look at the data.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 16:53
69:23)  Stephanie:
 homorganic assimilation, gp...and thats what we got too
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:00
69:24)  Lee:
 I thought I was seeing an -m only when it was followed by a p- in the next 
 word.  Also is the allomorphy between m, n, and 0, or are there two pairs,
 between m and 0 and between n and 0.  Because there wasn't much data (no
 JL, I'm NOT asking for more :| ) I thought there was allomorphy between all
 three, with m- before p-, 0 before vowel- and  s-, and -n otherwise.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 01:19
69:25)  Henry:
 General Rule: No p before n and no m before t.  Otherwise, I'm stuck.
 More Data Please. NOT!
- - - - -
Apr18/94 09:13
69:26)  Dawn:
 lee:  I organinzed it into two rules for the pronouns...
 m&n   and    M&0
- - - - -
Apr18/94 10:01
69:27)  John P:
 we have it as one rule between -m, -n, and -0
- - - - -
Apr18/94 13:39
69:28)  Lee:
 Anyone else?
 If you do pairs, it seems pretty easy to do the rules -m before p- otherwise
  choose the other one.  But if you do all three it seems like it fits 
  Occam's Razor better.  Yikes.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 14:00
69:29)  Calvin:
 How can the 'general phonological rule' apply to nouns as stated in part 1. 
 I don't see a noun anywhere in the data that is inflected a nasal as in the
 pronouns.  Howver, i do see nouns being inflected with respect to case and
 number.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:12
69:30)  Henry:
 Calvin, check #16 and #24.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 70    Apr13/94 16:19     4 lines   131 responses
Mitchell              
Future plans!

 As of this writing, less than a week remains until the end of the class.
 Therefore, I devote this item as a forum announcing what people in
 Linguistics 210 will be doing during the summer, next term, as well as
 all general future plans.

  131 responses
- - - - -
Apr13/94 16:25
70:1)  Mitchell:
 Considering that I made the item, I guess I should be the first to
 mention my summer plans.  Herein is a partial list of things I will be
 doing in the summer:
 * Go on the Grand Rapids TV newsmagazine Days of Our Lies (not a typo)
   as an announcer/researcher (perhaps)
 * Read a ton of books in preparation for GUTS, College Bowl, and another
   (tentative) Jeopardy! tryout.
 * Go to Montreal in July to participate in the National Puzzlers League
   Convention (as well as take part in the 3rd National Puzzle Test)
 * Try out for Mensa again
 * Work on learning Polish, sign language, and shorthand.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 17:35
70:2)  John Lawler:
 Big plans, Mitchell.  Good luck.  And thanks for the item.  So, I should
 probably go second.  I'm gonna stay here in AA for the summer, except for
 the odd weekend trip (my mother turns 80 this year in Illinois, and
 I wouldn't miss that).  I'll be working on course design for a new
 linguistics course roughly on "Everything linguists have always needed
 to know about computing", plus on redesign of my "World of Words"
 educational software.  Plus editing a book on linguistic computing,
 plus trying to get a grant for my upcoming sabbatical (which I hope
 to spend in Berkeley).  My son will be entering the R.C. this fall,
 and I wouldn't want to miss his first college year, but I'm trying to
 figure out how to be gone the next year.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 19:35
70:3)  Sarah:
 I think I'll be going back to Virginia to learn a couple of new sports
 for about two months, then probably back home to Korea. My two biggest plans,
 get a lot of shopping done at home and keep studying Japanese!
- - - - -
Apr13/94 20:47
70:4)  Alana:
 I'm going back home to Escanaba to teach swimming lessons on lifeguard
 at our beach.  Plus two of my host sisters are coming to visit me and
 I'm looking forward to showing them around.  After tahat, it's back to
 school and back to studying...
- - - - -
Apr13/94 21:39
70:5)  Rob:
 Over the summer I shall be working as a draftsman at my dad's drafting
 company. Oh boy 40 hour weeks again!!!  In my spare time I might start
 writing questions to be used for a hish school quiz bowl tournament (my
 friend at Western puts on the tournament to raise money for their quiz bowl).
  Other than that I will probably just vege.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:29
70:6)  Margaret:
 I am going to take ANOTHER linguistics class...God help me!  and hopefully
 make enough money so that I can support myself in JApan next fall...or at
 least enough money so I can get home...My only comment about this class,
 which I feel needs to be stated, is that it has warped me (in a good way,
 of course...?!)  I have taken to turning my Japanese homework into a
 linguistics problem for...FUN????  Well, at least for better understanding.
 I never thought that would happen.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:45
70:7)  Kevin:
 I'm going to be working as a computer what-have-you at my dad's business yet
 again.  With an occasional break for sanity.  And, of course, I'll take the
 time to go to the Smithee awards.
  
 PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG PLUG
  
 The Smithee Awards are put on annually (this year is the third) by a few
 local bad-movie aficionados.  Part of the point of the awards is to 
 acknowledge the worst movies that we've seen in the past year (these are
 truly bad movies, not mediocre ones).  The other half of the point is to
 condense the best parts of these movies without having to (shudder)
 sit through them all the way.  And, of course, we all participate in
 the voting (19 categories ... audience decides the winner).  It's
 going to be held on May 21st this year, and I don't know where yet.
  
 PLUG ENDS PLUG ENDS PLUG ENDS PLUG ENDS PLUG ENDS PLUG ENDS
  
 Other than that, I probably won't be doing much.
- - - - -
Apr13/94 22:54
70:8)  Tara:
 I'm planning on going to Florida to volunteer at the Dolphin Research
 Center for a month.  And then after that fun is over I will either go
 back home to earn back my money with a marketing internship, or preferably
 go to Traverse City to work at a Biology lab sort of job.  I like the
 science better than the marketing bussiness stuff.  However, if I stay
 home  I'll be able to study Latin with an excellent teacher.  My plans
 are really still up in the air.  I can't wait for summer though!!!! (=
- - - - -
Apr13/94 23:21
70:9)  Jennifer:
 I hopefully will be working at the DIA (the art museum) in downtown Detroit.
 If not, then I will be working as a summer camp conselor at an overnight camp
 in New York or I'll be working in an art gallery.  The conselor job really
 doesn't match up with the other two, but oh well!
- - - - -
Apr14/94 08:54
70:10)  John P:
 i'm going home to cleveland for a *little* bit and then spending the 
 rest of the summer here in a2.  with any luck, i'll find a job that isn't 
 too nasty and be able to spend the rest of my time composing.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 10:16
70:11)  Monica:
 I start working at a Plant Station the day after my last final and will work
 there for 6 weeks with 5 guys from my highschool. We have to work 6 days a
 week 10 hours a day though, but only for 6 weeks, and then I will be off
 to my job as a camp counselor on Burt Lake(near Petoskey) on June 12. At camp
 I will be playing with kids and teaching a lot of riflery. both a relaxing
 yet fun summer job.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 10:18
70:12)  Mitul:
 This summer I'm going back home to Illinois where I'll be working in a 
 pharmaceutical company doing little odds and ends.  I also plan on taking
 a trip to the east coast to visit a friend.  Other than that, I'm just
 going to relax until it's time to come back to Ann Arbor!
- - - - -
Apr14/94 10:46
70:13)  Samuel:
 This summer I'm going back to my WARM and beautiful island of Puerto Rico.
 My plans are to just relax under the caribean sun at least until the end
 of June.  During July, I'll go to Florida to visit some family and to 
 take Microeconomics in the Univ. of Florida.  That's about it.  I hope
 you all enjoy your summer.  Bye!
- - - - -
Apr14/94 16:30
70:14)  Henry:
 It looks like another Southwestern summer for me.  80+ hours per weeks.
 Introducing myself to thousands of people I have never met.  Driving
 to California.  Selling door-to-door.  Running a high-profit business.
 Throwing my reclusive, sheltered lifestyle to the dogs.  I like to
 think of it as similar to Indiana Jones changing from college professor
 to you know what.  If adventure has a name...
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:05
70:15)  Tom:
 This summer I will be working at a Country Club near my hometown of FlatRock
 Michigan.  I will taking two weeks off this summer to work in a program
 called Safety Town.  Where I'll be teaching children ages 4-6 Safety
 Awareness. My only other definate plan is that I will be studying Japanese
 with a family in my community.  I also hope to write a phamplet of how to
 adjust to Homesickness when being an Exchange student.  My hope is to give it
 to my local high school to distribute to students who are interested in being
 exchange students but concerned about whether or not they live away from home
 for a summer.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 17:31
70:16)  Jake:
 Summer? I'm still trying to find a job (I'll take anything not in the 
 food industry), so if anyone knows of one, _please_ tell me. If I can't 
 stay here in a2 for the Summer, I'll have to go back to Ohio!!
 
 Next (fall) semester I'll be taking two, count 'em 2, Linguistics 
 courses, 313 and "Prospects of Second Language Learning", and starting my 
 Honors Calc sequence too. Yup, I'm a glutton for pain.
 
 As it said under my senior high-school yearbook picture "I'm not 
 predjudiced, I hate everyone equally" :) :) :) :)
- - - - -
Apr14/94 18:20
70:17)  Vassoula:
 Well, my summer won't be nearly as exciting as anyone else's
 I'll be in Ann Arbor taking classes all summer.
- - - - -
Apr14/94 22:40
70:18)  Abheek:
 This summer, i'm going to take it easy and hang around the French
 Quarter, catching some good music and thawing out from this
 past winter.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 13:51
70:19)  Kiran:
 I'm with you Vassoula, I'll be here taking Biochemistry (ugh!) for spring 
 term.  On the side, I am probably going to be volunteering at a pre-school 
 and at the hospital.  As for the rest of the summer, I will be studying for 
 the MCATs which I get to take in August!  What a restful summer I'm going to
 have!!   :)
- - - - -
Apr15/94 16:46
70:20)  Joe:
 Abheek, you've definitely got the right idea.  I'll probably be here in
 Ann Arbor, buried by insane books that I could never read while classes
 where going on.  Throw in a terrible job, which I haven't found yet, roller
 hockey, hiking, and fishing, which I know next to nothing about but have
 the urge to do it anyway.  Anybody know where I can go skydiving around
 here>?
 I've always wanted to do it, and have always put it off.  Maybe this summer.
- - - - -
Apr15/94 18:26
70:21)  Tara:
 Joe, sometimes in the summer the Outing Club goes sky diving.  You
 could check into that- I've always wanted to go to!!
- - - - -
Apr16/94 02:53
70:22)  Anand:
 I'm with you Joe.  This summer I'm going to be reading tons of books,
 explore new mathematical concepts, take spring-summer courses,
 and then TRY TO SOLVE ONE QUESTION:  WHY AM I ATTENDING COLLEGE?
 It seems that on my hall, many people go to college because it acts
 as a transitional step from high-school to the real-world, and well
 they just sit on their asses, get drunk every Friday night, go to parties,
 and study only for the grades.  GREAT HALL? I guess I'll be sitting in 
 an old living room, and debating little annoying questions in my head
 which I haven't done in a long time.  SEE YA ALL!!! And by the way,
 Mitchell, Rob, Tom, since I'm going to stay here in the spring, I 
 guess I could pick up the Final exam, and either mail you each a 
 copy or telephone you guys.  Thanxs! It's been exciting! 
 GO OCCAM's RAZOR
- - - - -
Apr16/94 14:43
70:23)  Joe:
 Go Anand!  Hope you don't go insane!  It's not that it's a terrible place
 to be (insanity, that is), but really, it only raises more questions!
 By the way, Tara, what, where, when, who, how (whew!) is the Outing Club?
- - - - -
Apr16/94 15:40
70:24)  Stephanie:
 Goin home to California for the summer, with at least two
 camping trips and some rafting if i can get the time off work
 Will be tutoring math, working as a day camp couselor during the
 day and selling clothes at the mall at night...6 am biike rides
 through the woods and long walks on the beach with friends who
 stayed behind in CA.  
 As for next term, physics, italian, math (talk about glutton for
 punishment) and an RC class...writing for children and young 
 adults. More conferencing of course.:)
  
 LWIC: WHY Berkelely, of all places????
- - - - -
Apr16/94 20:59
70:25)  Margaret:
 Joe-the outing club is great, I highly recomend it, though only from
 second hand information...i'm too lazy to go out and join...They go
 on outings; hinking, canoeing, rock climbing, and skydiving, it seems.
 However, Tara can probably give a better description, so I will leave that
 up to her.
- - - - -
Apr16/94 22:10
70:26)  Tara:
 Yeah, actually the Outing Club tries to do all these things, if
 there is enough interest from a group of people.  I can find out
 for you how many leaders are staying here for the summer and then
 I'll transmit you more info.  
- - - - -
Apr16/94 23:34
70:27)  Amy:
 My summer job will start within the week I get home.  I'll be working
 as a swim coach (kids 5-18) and lifeguarding once the season is over.
 I'll also be commuting to Ann Arbor once a week to take my last term of
 german here as an independent study.  Hopefully, I'll be going on a few
 weekend camping trips and I plan to go up north a few times.  Generally,
 I'll spend my summer outside and enjoying the sun trying to ignore the
 fact that I have german reading to do.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:15
70:28)  Stephanie:
 up north?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:17
70:29)  John Lawler:
 Stephanie, Berkeley is *the* place in the world to study a new variety
 of grammar I'm fond of, called Construction Grammar.  They have some of
 the best and most famous linguists in the world there: George Lakoff,
 Robin T. Lakoff, Charles Fillmore, James Matisoff, Paul Kay, etc.
 I'll probably be teaching a course there on computing for linguists;
 if they can find the money, of course -- the whole world knows that
 California's bankrupt.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:26
70:30)  Samuel:
 JL, that computing for linguistics course sounds interesting.  What
 exactly does it deal with?  What is the course presenting or studying?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:26
70:31)  Amy:
 Yeah....not doing anything interesting this summer...slaving at some menail
 er...that should be menial job...going to the beach...Lake Michigan...
 hanging out at DENNY'S!!! :) Um...making some road trips to New York and 
 Mt. Pleasant and Niles to visit future housemates...you know...getting 
 sunburned...yup...typical summer. Have fun everyone and watch lots o' MONTY
 PYTHON!!! :) 
- - - - -
Apr17/94 11:47
70:32)  John Lawler:
 It's not developed yet.  That's *another* thing I have to do this summer.
 
 Anybody interested in seeing the table of contents for the book
 I'm editing, though, can do so by typing "contents" at DO NEXT?
 
 And you can also read a lecture of mine on "Metaphors We Compute By"
 by typing "compute" at DO NEXT?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:15
70:33)  Jill:
 This summer I am taking a class at SUNY Purchase(NY) about Pop Art.
 Am I probably going to be working at a day camp teaching dance mostly ballet.
 My sister is also graduating from college Memorial Day Weekend from Cornell
 so that will be exciting.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:24
70:34)  Larry:
 So far I'm doing a grand total of nothing.  That is because I have
 no damn job.  I guess I'll be one of those unemployed Michigan 
 grads we always hear about.  Anybody know someone hiring 
 statistics majors who speak Skagit???  Please....
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:30
70:35)  Karen :
 This summer? I will be graduating (gulp) and then staying in Ann Arbot
 to write up a paper, and present it at a conference that I will be 
 helping to organize in late June (yes, it **IS** about evolution).
 Then I will be either 1) in Ann Arbor 2) at home in Chicago doing 
 research at Northwestern (pending a grant), or 3)traveling somewhere
 exotic. OR most likely some combo of the three. In late August I will
 be going to Camp Michigania to hang with family and friends, and 
 possibly in the end of August traveling out west with my significant
 other. . . and then in the fall I start a doctoral program in 
 Personality Psychology here. . .talk about glutton for punishment.
 But grad school beats the *real* world any day!
- - - - -
Apr17/94 14:32
70:36)  Stephanie:
 LWiC- didnt know that about Berkeley. Now i can go look for
 something when i visit. :) Metaphors we Compute By...Cute
 title...:)
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:20
70:37)  Henry:
 On Tuesday I want Larry to demonstrate that he can speak Skagit
 in lecture.  $100000000000000 he can't.  Larry?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 15:52
70:38)  Anand:
 Hell, $2000000000000000000000000000000 if he can,
 But I think it would be really cool, I shoudl bring a recorder,
 if John would speak SKAGIT for 10 minutes.  After all those stops
 I what kind of accent one develops after speaking Skagit???
- - - - -
Apr17/94 20:49
70:39)  Mitchell:
 Not to alarm anyone, but out of curiosity, I typed "contents" at the
 Do Next prompt, to which I received: "Command CONFER/LIB/JLAWLER/MOUTO
 not recognized."  Another glitch, I presume.  But could the fault be
 mine?
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:18
70:40)  Tara:
 Mitchell, I got the same thing!  Dunno...
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:41
70:41)  John Lawler:
 I made a mistake and now it's fixed.  Thanks, folks.
- - - - -
Apr17/94 21:50
70:42)  Joe:
 Karen!  You mean grad school ISN'T the real world?  Geeze, will I ever
 get to go to that place?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 02:41
70:43)  Jake:
 Henry, Andy, invent commas :-)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 12:00
70:44)  Lisa:
 This summer I have lots planned.  I'm going to Mexico all of May with my
 mom to keep her company (my parents are fighting because my mom wants to
 move back now that she is retired, but my dad doesn't want to;  So, since
 my mom has no fun when she is in Mexico with my dad, we're dissing him
 and going by ourselves).  I don't really want to see most of my relatives,
 so most of the time I plan on just relaxing, walking through the plaza,
 eating Yukis and trying to convince my mom to go to the bar with me
 (she doesn't drink).  After that, I have a summer research job here in 
 Ann Arbor.  I am going to work with Frances Aparicio on gender and ethnic
 identity in Puerto Rican and Caribbean music.  She's going to apply to
 the program for funding and take me to a conference in Paris, too.  Can
 anyone give me a quick French lesson?  Woui, Parlez moi francais. Have 
 you ever noticed that French is a lot more like Spanish when you see it
 written than when you hear it?  I love languages, I just wish they were
 easier to learn.  Well, that's about  for me.  I hope ya'll have a good
 summer.  Peace.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 13:42
70:45)  Lee:
 I'm ending up in Ann Arbor doing research with a professor in math.
 I'm also gonna write a lot, since I didn't write much this past term for
 the comedy group I'm in.  Hopefully by the fall, I'll have notebooks full
 of funny sketches.  Other than that, all I plan to do is catch some ZZZZs.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 16:15
70:46)  Henry:
 Jake, write less ambiguously.
- - - - -
Apr18/94 21:05
70:47)  Jessie:
 I'm going to Montana with my best friends to visit the woman of my
 dreams,Lissa and go white water rafting. I'm also looking into changing my
 concentration to SKAGIT!!!  ;)
- - - - -
Apr18/94 22:49
70:48)  Kevin:
 Movin' to Montana soon?
- - - - -
Apr18/94 23:56
70:49)  Tara:
 nice, Jessie.....  (=
- - - - -
Apr19/94 07:00
70:50)  John Lawler:
 Be careful, Jessie.  They have other Salishan languages in W. Montana.
 They're the *really* complicated ones.  Coeur d'Alene (in Idaho) has
 *six* phonemically distinct /r/ phonemes that appear only in roots,
 along with the usual panoply of ejectives, velars, and post-velars.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 09:12
70:51)  Tara:
 HEY! =)   It's the last day of class!!!
- - - - -
Apr19/94 09:50
70:52)  Stephanie:
 Maybe Ill learn Hungarian
- - - - -
Apr19/94 10:56
70:53)  John Lawler:
 I was wondering when that would occur to you.
- - - - -
Apr19/94 14:46
70:54)  Stephanie:
 It not exactly an EASY language, you know
- - - - -
Apr19/94 14:57
70:55)  Calvin:
 this is the last time (i think) that i'll be conferring because i have these
 other deadly exams to study for.  So, I just want to say, "Have an absolutely
 beautiful and majestic summer, everyone!"
- - - - -
Apr19/94 20:09
70:56)  Rob:
 Calvin what a wimp you are! :)  I have three exams to study for and I'll 
 still be on confer.  I need an excuse to take a break from studying so hard.
- - - - -
Apr20/94 00:41
70:57)  Kevin:
 Hm.  I'm done for the term, so I'll probably be hanging around.
- - - - -
Apr20/94 01:27
70:58)  Jake:
 Finals? You mean it's finals already? I though we just finished with
 Midterms...
- - - - -
Apr20/94 16:51
70:59)  Joe:
 Kevin, are you a Frank Zappa fan?  Just wondering, since your response
 #48 are an exact quote from one of his songs.  I guess this could just be
 a coincidence.  But, who knows?  Are you?  I notice these things.
- - - - -
Apr20/94 17:15
70:60)  Kevin:
 Yes, I am.  It's not just a coincidence.  A friend of mine moved to Montana
 two months ago, and had to put up with me quoting the song at him for days
 on end.
- - - - -
Apr21/94 14:28
70:61)  Kevin:
 I saw "Avenging Disco Godfather" last night.  All I can say is:  "Oh no no!"
- - - - -
Apr21/94 15:00
70:62)  Jill:
 I am procrastinating studying for my Russian and Stats finals which are
 monday. I had calculus 116 this morning broght and early. i want to wish
 everyone good luck on their finals and have a great summer!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Apr21/94 15:04
70:63)  Larry:
 Jessie, somehow I think that Lisa was sitting behind you when you
 wrote that last response.  Montana's cool.  On another note, I just got
 a semi-job-offer yesterday back home in MD, and it doesn't even require
 Skagit.  Imagine that!!!
- - - - -
Apr21/94 15:14
70:64)  Joe:
 Go, Kevin!  I'm glad to see that there are still a few Zappa fans out there.
 Even now (that he's dead), he is still one of the best-kept musical secrets
 in the world.
- - - - -
Apr21/94 16:29
70:65)  Stephanie:
 I heard that 116 final was a bitch and a half...really tough,eh?
 Oh well, i guess it is over now. Have been procrastinating
 allweek....why should i study
- - - - -
Apr21/94 17:53
70:66)  Kevin:
 I don't know, Joe.  He is a well-kept secret, but I think he has more
 fans than people realize.
- - - - -
Apr21/94 22:40
70:67)  Margaret:
 You guys are totally ignoring the true genius or the family (I assume they
 are related)...Moon (unit?) Zappa.  Valley girl is a song everyone should
 worship...
- - - - -
Apr22/94 00:34
70:68)  Tom:
 I just wanted to tell everyone to have a great summer.  Life goes by so
 fast so enjoy it while you can.  I wish everyone the best of luck on finals!
- - - - -
Apr22/94 02:13
70:69)  Kevin:
 I think someone once said, "Life is a terminal disease; the least you can
 do is try to keep the patient comfortable." 
  
 I finally heard "Valley Girl" earlier this year.  All I can say is, "Like,
 omigod."
- - - - -
Apr22/94 10:34
70:70)  Dawn:
 BYE!
- - - - -
Apr22/94 14:05
70:71)  Stephanie:
 Like, totally wow!!! Cool
- - - - -
Apr22/94 15:49
70:72)  Joe:
 Actually, Margaret, "Valley Girl" is on the Frank Zappa album "Ship Arriving
 Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch."  But I'll agree, Moon's a genius, too
 (well, maybe).  What I can't figure out, Kevin, is *why* there aren't more
 Zappa fans out there, even if there are a lot of them.  There's something
 for everyone in his music, I think.  And a lot of something.
- - - - -
Apr22/94 18:01
70:73)  Kevin:
 I think it's because people just don't hear his music.  There's no question
 that from one end of the FZ spectrum to the other, there's probably something
 for everyone.  I know that I'd never heard any of it until I ran into a 
 friend who had an album (actually, the Apostrophe'/Overnite Sensation CD).
 And then, when I started listening to Dr. Demento, I found he played Frank
 Zappa's songs on occasion.
- - - - -
Apr22/94 22:38
70:74)  Rob:
 Weird Al Yankovic is stealing all of Frank Zappa's fans.
- - - - -
Apr23/94 12:39
70:75)  Joe:
 Not all of them, Rob!  Frank would be, shall we say, upset at such a
 comparison!
- - - - -
Apr23/94 14:22
70:76)  Kevin:
 I agree with Joe.  There is a world of difference between Frank Zappa and
 Weird Al Yankovic and I think most people can see it.  Although my
 favorite FZ songs (I Don't Wanna Get Drafted and Let's Make The Water Turn
 Black) are fairly funny.
- - - - -
Apr23/94 15:20
70:77)  John Lawler:
 Of course there is. One's Italian and one's Polish.
- - - - -
Apr23/94 20:47
70:78)  Kevin:
 Frank Zappa is Polish?  (Just kidding)
- - - - -
Apr25/94 11:24
70:79)  Kevin:
 Anyone else out there?  Hello-o-o-o.
- - - - -
Apr25/94 13:58
70:80)  Stephanie:
 its like calling across the grand canyon, eh?
- - - - -
Apr25/94 15:38
70:81)  John Lawler:
 I'm here.  But then, that's no surprise.
- - - - -
Apr25/94 17:16
70:82)  Kevin:
 Well, you two I expected.  Professor Lawler because ... well ... just
 because, and SAM because you're still on films.  Anyone else out there,
 or not?
- - - - -
Apr25/94 17:17
70:83)  Kevin:
 Okay.  Jake, because we're both on right now.  Anyone else?  What's
 the census?
- - - - -
Apr25/94 17:52
70:84)  Stephanie:
 how did YOU know i was on films, random rider?
- - - - -
Apr25/94 19:39
70:85)  Margaret:
 I'm here.  It has become such a habit to logon to confer, almost a bad habit.
 Slowly I am weening myself off of it....
- - - - -
Apr25/94 20:19
70:86)  Kevin:
 Oh, confer is a *wonderful* habit to get into.  When I can't log on at
 least once every day, I start to tremble and get the DTs real hard.
  
 It must have been your personality shining through, SAM.  Either that
 or your uniqname.
- - - - -
Apr25/94 21:17
70:87)  Joe:
 I'm here too, I guess.  I'm having a hell of a time getting anything done,
 like studying, these days.  Now, why is that, I wonder?  Is it just me?
 What's the deal with the non-ventilated computing sites, anyway?  It sure
 makes it fun to be here.  I can't win.
- - - - -
Apr25/94 22:41
70:88)  Mitchell:
 I'm replying now.  But in all likelihood this will be my last response.
 I leave for Grand Rapids Wednesday and must study for my bioanthro final
 in the meantime.  It's been fun.  Thanx all.
  
 Hailing frequencies closed.
- - - - -
Apr25/94 23:22
70:89)  Tom:
 I am here also!  Just trying to finish typing this last paper.  I hear you
 Joe this is the worst.  I will probably be on tommorrow and maybe Wedensday!
 But incase not.  Have  a nice summer everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- - - - -
Apr25/94 23:47
70:90)  Dale:
 I wonder if I will get the last word!  I am going to the Philippines this
 summer for a month.  O ther than that I'm going to be working at a law
 firm doing medical briefs (hopefully) in Lansing. I wish everyone a great
 summer and by the way;  John I must say that I immensly enjoyed taking
 your class (even though it was a shitload of work).  I still think,however,
 that you do not take a type of class that your parent has a master's in.
 It's not as enjoyable for you as it was for them.  Thanks for the great
 class guys.  Enjoy the free summer life.  Toodles!!! :)
- - - - -
Apr26/94 01:04
70:91)  Kevin:
 That's why Angell Hall, IMHO, is the king of warm weather computing sites.
 It's, what, 65 degrees year-round?  I love going there during the summer.
- - - - -
Apr26/94 13:31
70:92)  Stephanie:
 My peronality, Random :)
 not the uniquename...<chickle)>>
- - - - -
Apr26/94 15:34
70:93)  Larry:
 Four more days until graduation........... :0)
- - - - -
Apr26/94 15:55
70:94)  Tom:
 I'm outta here!!!!!  Well for this year anyway.  It has been a great first
 year.  Hope everyone elses was great!  Well enjoy the summer!  This weather
 is great.  And I don't have to work until monday!:)  I get a chance to enjoy
 this weather I hope!  Take it Easy!  Best of luck to everyone.
- - - - -
Apr26/94 15:59
70:95)  Kevin:
 Definitely your personality, Buttercup.
- - - - -
Apr26/94 16:07
70:96)  Margaret:
 Buttercup?  IS there something here I am missing?  Confer could replace 
 phone-sex...(just an idea)
- - - - -
Apr26/94 20:05
70:97)  John Lawler:
 Stephanie's pseudonym in the FILMS conference is "Princess Buttercup".
 She's fond of "The Princess Bride".
- - - - -
Apr26/94 22:01
70:98)  Stephanie:
 yes...fond of it....
- - - - -
Apr26/94 23:39
70:99)  Kevin:
 Hm.  Confer replacing phone-sex....  The "finger" command....  The fact
 that "Bob" is an anagram of "Bob"....  Does anyone else see a pattern?
- - - - -
Apr27/94 08:58
70:100)  John Lawler:
 Yes! It must be.....
 
 The Bavarian Illuminati!
- - - - -
Apr27/94 11:32
70:101)  Kevin:
 Damn.  I'd been pulling for the Discordians.
- - - - -
Apr27/94 20:40
70:102)  Kevin:
 Hey, has anyone heard the term "eisener breche" before?  I'm not exactly
 sure what language it is (German?), but I'm pretty sure it's not English
 or French (or Spanish/Portuguese for that matter).  It's a term I ran
 across a few years ago, and I've been wondering exactly what it meant all
 this time.
- - - - -
Apr28/94 09:29
70:103)  John Lawler:
 Eisen means "iron" in German (the -er could be an adjective inflection), but
 I don't recognize "breche".  It's got the form of a German word, though if
 it's a noun being modified by "eisener" it should be capitalized.  Taking a
 running leap of intuition, and considering the potential source, I'd hazard a
 first guess that it means "iron pants", if Breche is cognate to English
 "britches".
- - - - -
Apr29/94 20:48
70:104)  Kevin:
 Hm.  Sounds interesting.  It was used to describe something that could
 disrupt a supernatural creature (wooden stake, silver bullet, etc).  That
 kind of makes sense, in a strange way.
- - - - -
Apr30/94 20:14
70:105)  John Lawler:
 
 Oh, then it's probably from the verb "brechen", which means and is cognate
 with 'to break'.  Something to do with breaking that's made out of iron.
 That's close enough for jazz.
- - - - -
May01/94 02:02
70:106)  Kevin:
 That makes even more sense.  Anyway, I'll announce it here (again), 
 Smithee Awards are May 21st, 7 PM (we're starting on time this year, for
 a refreshing change), MLB 2.
- - - - -
May01/94 17:48
70:107)  Lee:
 Are grades posted yet?  And does anybody know when the official sheets
 get mailed?
- - - - -
May04/94 12:49
70:108)  Henry:
 Can we get at least a copy of our graded finals mailed to us?
- - - - -
May04/94 14:11
70:109)  Stephanie:
 HEY! I Did it...signon on from San Francico....cool, huh?
- - - - -
May04/94 20:04
70:110)  Kevin:
 Wow.  It worked.  Now you can see what everyone is saying about you
 over on FILMS.
- - - - -
May04/94 22:41
70:111)  Stephanie:
 they better NOT BE!
 anyone know why is is all showing up twice? how do
 i turn off the echo? Is that it?
 Kevin000
 dont say anything on films about me being on
 k?
- - - - -
May05/94 14:50
70:112)  John Lawler:
 Somewhere you have something set for "Half Duplex", Stephanie, and
 it should be Full Duplex.
  
 Half duplex mode is obsolete.  It just provided local echo of typed
 characters because the host wouldn't echo them back.  Nobody uses
 it any more.  It's like the "78" speed on deluxe turntables.
  
 All you have to do is find out where it's set and change it to
 Full Duplex.  That would have to be in your communication software
 somewhere (but where I couldn't say).
- - - - -
May07/94 15:08
70:113)  Kevin:
 I used to have that problem, but then I got Desenex, and it cleared right up.
- - - - -
May08/94 20:12
70:114)  Stephanie:
 THANKS....I Am gonna try to fix it soon...it makes ytalk imposible
- - - - -
May08/94 21:34
70:115)  Kevin:
 If not duplex, it could be echo on/echo off on the modem.  At least, 
 that's happened to me before.
- - - - -
May11/94 22:38
70:116)  Stephanie:
 It i not repeating character by character...it is going line by line
 after I send it...
 please tell me whereabouts I can find these things, too...I dont even
 know where to to look...thanks
- - - - -
May12/94 08:05
70:117)  John Lawler:
 Depends on what you're using to get here, Stephanie.  What's your
 hardware/software/network configuration (i.e, what do you do when you
 sign on from CA and what equipment do you use)?
- - - - -
May12/94 18:11
70:118)  Kevin:
 What John said.
- - - - -
May12/94 21:17
70:119)  Lee:
 Sure yeah, what he said.
- - - - -
May12/94 22:41
70:120)  Stephanie:
 Software: Microphone
 I dial into a local number and then login to delphi service
 9600 baud modem, powerbook 165c, vt102 termian, 8 databits, no
 parity, stop bits :auto, flow control: Xon-Xoff....anything else?
- - - - -
May13/94 02:12
70:121)  Kevin:
 Not for me.  I don't know Microphone.  That is, we've met once or twice, but
 never been formally introduced.
- - - - -
May13/94 02:14
70:122)  Kevin:
 Hmf.  I was going to trans you, Prof. L, but I got another
 Could not open /confer/lib/jlawler/CONFER.MSG
 Something is wrong - message not sent!
- - - - -
May13/94 08:15
70:123)  John Lawler:
 I'll look into it. Thanks, Kevin.
- - - - -
May13/94 08:19
70:124)  John Lawler:
 Fixed it.  You may now complete your Trans...
- - - - -
May13/94 22:12
70:125)  Kevin:
 Okay.
- - - - -
May14/94 02:18
70:126)  Stephanie:
 Still have the echo...any more suggestions
- - - - -
May14/94 11:24
70:127)  John Lawler:
 Does it work with everything you log into, or just this machine?
- - - - -
May14/94 19:20
70:128)  Stephanie:
 There is the echo on this machine, even when I type
 my uniquename, and my password shows on the screen, which it should
 not do, I suspect. The same thing happens when I login to the nexts or
 login.itd.umich.edu, (my uname echos, and the pw comes up), and
 pine i virtually impossible to use. Hurumph
- - - - -
May14/94 21:55
70:129)  Kevin:
 Oh jeez, Pine would be bad.  Especially if you can't do ANSI.
- - - - -
May15/94 15:09
70:130)  Stephanie:
 what is ansi? I think that us the terminal I *am* on
- - - - -
May15/94 22:17
70:131)  Kevin:
 That means that instead of all these neat highlighted lines and lined-up
 columns you see things like [A[C20[145  [AKevin.  VT100 Tabs fit
 in there too, somewhere.  The first program I tried calling in on couldn't
 do that, and it was living hell.  This program does, and is much nicer.


From Course Conference for Introduction to Linguistics printed on Aug13/94

Item 71    May16/94 02:39    25 lines    16 responses
Chad                         
Why I think that this conference is the dumbest requirement ever.

 I doubt that anyone wants to hear my beef with the conference, but I have
 found it to be one of the most pointless and ridiculous wastes of time to
 which I have been subjected at this university.  I could think of about 100
 things that I'd rather be doing than listening to a bunch of people babble
 on and on about topics that not only do not pertain to this subject, but
 that often times are not even interesting.  Some intellectual discussion 
 did take place, but even that was completely unnessary.  I'm so glad that I
 decided to take this class pass/fail -- otherwise I think that I would have
 gone crazy.  You know what the worst part about this whole class was?  It
 was the easiest course that I've taken at this university.  I spent about
 2 hours on this class per week -- and that was when I was doing the homework.
 With about twice as much effort, I'm sure I could have aced this class.
 I know that I didn't, but I can't even tell you how I did because I never
 went to discussion and I never picked up my homework.  How aggravating.
   I do not think that the conference should be a requirement.  The thought of
 having to waste my time every day listening to a whole bunch of people
 agree or disagree with each other about their dating or the price of tea
 in China just makes me want to puke.  If people want to talk about this 
 bunch of crap, then they should start their own conferences.  I got to 
 the point where I didn't even read anything.  I would just type "no" at the
 first prompt and then move on to the next item.  Eventually, I even gave
 that up.  I haven't even looked at the last 20 items that were created.
 Does anyone else feel that this exercise is futility was the most idiotic
 experience that they have had at this school?
   Disgruntled, but happily graduated, I am moving on.

   16 responses
- - - - -
May16/94 07:56
71:1)  John Lawler:
 De gustibus non disputandum est, Chad.  Especially now that you're graduated.
 Congratulations, by the way.
 
 For somebody who knows their way around (and who better than seniors?) it's
 easy enough to devote a minimum effort and get a minimum amount of learning
 out of a course.  One can't legislate against that, at least not
 successfully, and I rarely try.  The grades speak for themselves in that
 regard; and I can imagine you *are* glad you took the course P/F.
- - - - -
May17/94 02:51
71:2)  Stephanie:
 heh
- - - - -
May17/94 17:47
71:3)  Kevin:
 So, let me get this straight:  you're saying that you didn't get much out
 of the conference?  Is that it?
- - - - -
May18/94 01:14
71:4)  Stephanie:
 Did you ever *read* it???
- - - - -
May18/94 09:12
71:5)  John Lawler:
 He's out of here, Stephanie.  He hasn't logged on since he entered
 the item.  As he said, he's graduated.  Sic transit gloria mundi.
 Tuesdays are generally worse.
- - - - -
May19/94 01:13
71:6)  Stephanie:
 HEY: fixed the damn echo....everything is slower now, but it works
 for future reference: the stop bits had to be on 1 (not auto) and the
 flow control on hardware (not auto)
- - - - -
May20/94 21:17
71:7)  Kevin:
 Well, it certainly seems as though conversation is dying down on this
 conference.
- - - - -
May20/94 21:45
71:8)  Stephanie:
 oh well....
- - - - -
May20/94 23:22
71:9)  Kevin:
 Is it for lack of something to say or for lack of the need to say something?
- - - - -
May21/94 19:28
71:10)  Stephanie:
 nobody here but us chickens....
 I say we have  funster coup of the ling-210 confer....NOT
- - - - -
May22/94 17:05
71:11)  Kevin:
 Heh.  Yeah, that's *just* what we need.
- - - - -
May23/94 22:26
71:12)  Stephanie:
 Theye'd definitely enjoy the kagit, eh?
- - - - -
Jun02/94 01:44
71:13)  Kevin:
 Hello, my name is Kevin and I'm a Confer addict.  On MTS, I joined the
 WING:SPAN conference solely so I could have an X-command "xwing" -- I'm
 so ashamed....
- - - - -
Jun14/94 15:10
71:14)  Lisa:
 I have to agree that there are problems with confer, but that was just
 disrespectful.  What he says about not reading, well, I did that sometimes to
 because the important shit was second to personal and often non- linguistical
 conversations.  It's frustrating when you don't know the people in class and
 you don't care about what they care about.  We're paying to care about
 linguistics, right?  Anyhow, I do think overall it is a good idea, it just
 strayed a little. But damn, that boy's got an attitude! You know he thinks
 he's the shit.  I feel sorry for him.  A senior, and he still had that
 attitude of putting in as little as he could. He don't care about learning,
 all he cares about is graduating and making lots of money.  The problem with
 this school is that there are too many sorry rich kids that only care about
 themselves and maintaining their little lily white suburban existence. I've
 never met so many rich white kids unworthy (in  other words, too stupid) of
 getting this kind of education.  And there are still people who insist that
 the creme de la creme are here at the University of Michigan.  I know damn
 well that if the truly brightest of this state were chosen to go here, there
 wouldn't be room for 90% of us who are DAMN lucky to be here.  Instead, this
 school is full of trash. And have you noticed lately that the richest people
 try to act like they're poor.  Why can't people be straight up.  I admit that
- - - - -
Jun14/94 15:10
71:15)  Lisa:
 I was priveleged in many ways, but I'm sick of all the rich people trying to
 be fronting like they're poor.  Half these people don't even know what's its
 like to drive through the city because their mommies and daddies are afraid
 of getting robbed by the "undesireables". So instead they hide their money in
 the suburbs and live their "afterschool special" life.  It's like they think
 poverty is contagious and shit.  People live so removed from real life, they
 start getting these crazy ideas.  For instance, being from "the ghetto" (it's
 really nowhere near a ghetto but some ignorant people consider it that)
 actually has it's advantages.  When I was in high school, and I met or saw
 someone from E. Lansing or another suburb, I got instant respect.  All I had
 to do was put on this attitude, and these stupid people would assume I had a
 gun or a knife on me.  Funny, huh?  Even last year I met this guy from E.
 Lansing at a party who admitted to me he was scared of me.  He said he was
 from E. Lansing and I said I went to Lansing Sexton.  [B[B[B[B[Immediate
 change of attitude.  I think E. Lansing parents school their kids to stay
 away from Sexton kids and shit.Anyhow, this has gotten long and, following my
 own sentiment, is straying from any linguistical value, but it does seem that
 no one is really doing this anymore.  All right, I'm outta here              
      Peace
- - - - -
Jun17/94 00:00
71:16)  Kevin:
 It did occasionally (often occasionally) stray from its intended usage, but
 I still think that this conference was an important part of this course for
 a number of reasons.  Other than real-time Q&A, it's the fastest way to
 get questions answered, mistakes pointed out, and ideas bounced off people.
 In general, if you're not semi-computer-literate by this part of your life,
 I think it's at least a good start.  Also, I get to "talk" with a number of
 people in the class who I know by name and by sight, and have never 
 personally met.  Excuse me for rambling, but I do that.  This conference
 helped, a lot, with sometimes providing that one good Eureka! I needed to
 get from where I was stuck to where I could solve the problem.  And, every
 so often, when I thought I knew exactly what I was doing, this conference
 (or, more accurately, the people on this conference) would stop me dead in
 my tracks and provide that "oh shit, I seriously screwed up somewhere"
 feeling.  
  
 Idle thought:  I saw the Smothers Brothers tonight, and they did one bit in
 Spanish (which I don't speak) -- but I knew what they were saying, largely,
 because they used (a) simple words [musica, el Dickie], and (b) words I
 knew from French.